Nonduality FAQ

[indigobusiness]

The Lankavatara Sutra, an essential chapter of The Buddhist Bible, states: "...let every disciple take good heed not to become attached to words as being in perfect conformity with meaning, because Truth is not in the letters. When a man with his finger-tip points to something, the finger-tip may be mistaken for the thing pointed at; in like manner the ignorant and simple-minded, like children, are unable even to the day of their death to abandon the idea that in the finger-tip of words there is the meaning itself. They cannot realise Ultimate Reality because of their intent clinging to words which were intended to be no more than a pointing finger. Words and their discrimination bind one to the dreary round of rebirths into the world of birth-and-death; meaning stands alone and is a guide to Nirvana. Meaning is attained by much learning, and much learning is attained by becoming conversant with meaning and not with words; therefore, let seekers for truth reverently approach those who are wise and avoid the sticklers for particular words."

Lest we throw the baby out with the bathwater:

This SE series is not intended to advocate any particular viewpoint or sect. This song is sung in many lands, and in many voices, in many languages, and in many ways. Only at once is there the very realization that they speak of when mirroring that which IS.

Being steeped in the dualistic view as a means of socialization and survival, just what does non-duality mean? What is there to gain from knowing of it? What is the result of not realizing it at all? Why ask what?

http://www.nonduality.com/faq.htm

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Nonduality

means that everything is interrelated. Science has shown this, I believe, and His Holiness the Dali Lama has spoken about this as well in a book containing 365 sayings (have only heard it online via file sharing, and can't recall the title). This is basically the same thing said in Sufism with the zkr phrase "La illaha il Allah", which can be interpreted to mean "There is nothing save God".

What is the gain in knowing this? To strive to experience this? It changes one's outlook on life, for one thing. To experience Unity is something that cannot be described in words, for it is out of a worded context. To not realize it, to stay in duality--I don't know about anyone but myself,but I found that in forgetting I found unhappiness, but in remembering- happiness and the ultimate peace.

[Stunster]

2. These links may be of interest

http://www.ksharpe.com/Word/BM14.htm#_Toc34549452

http://www-physics.lbl.gov/~stapp/repsar8-23-98.txt

http://www.hedweb.com/philsoph/c2.htm

http://members.aol.com/heraklit1/eckhart.htm

http://www.hedweb.com/witherall/existence.htm

http://www.lighthousewoods.com/christian_buddhist.html

[aneerkoinos]

4. Ouch!

http://www.ksharpe.com/Word/BM14.htm#_Toc34549452

Why do I feel violated by the obsessive attempt to dress up Bohm's holomovement as personalGod? What is with this obsession about personhood?

Needless to say, IMO the attempt to identify unfolding with active creation by holomovement goes very much against what Bohm is trying to communicate with his ideas, and is thus gross misunderstanding.

Perhaps the word 'person', with it's various meanings and connotations, is problematic and controversial from the beginning...

[Stunster]

5. For someone

who feels 'violated' by an 'obsession about personhood', you're remarkably touchy about your own personal views being given their due in debate.

I guess I'm confused by that.

[aneerkoinos]

6. Honesty does good!

I'm touchy because I suffer from emotional attachment to Bohm's theories, You're confused... :)

And hey, emotions, obsessions etc. don't presuppose coherent, unitary personality! Schizophrenics can tickle themselves! ;)

[Stunster]

3. Nonduality means....

It means everything that's real has to be literal, visible, tangible, and quantitatively measurable.

No, just kidding.

[indigobusiness]

9. It pains me to say it, but he is right.

And when he says "schizophrenics can tickle themselves" - don't doubt his insight.

[aneerkoinos]

11. Confusion continues

Who is right, Stunster or me, and regarding what?

Regarding my insight, I just tried to tickle myself and didn't laugh, so my insight is not quite that deep - even though it runs in the family. Just a factoid I picked up along the Path (which is not one but superposition, and at times between one and zero).

[indigobusiness]

12. Nonperson that you are

and all your schizoid relatives...separate and together...in all manifestations, assume the superposition along your fractional paths, pause in your multiplying, and add it up to one.

[aneerkoinos]

14. Hen

Go dance with Parmenides, you heinous henist, Zorba is social drinker.

I'm not a nonperson, I'm my own hallucination. There is no path, it's broken, there's no continuity, just Plancks, silence of intervals.

[indigobusiness]

15. Rooster

to your henism.

Cackle all you want about your broken location: there is one Path, two directions, and infinite blind-alley side-tracks.




Once again, I must dance...

[aneerkoinos]

17. Holy Trinity

That makes three plus: one path + two directions + infinity.

The Way begot one,
And the one, two;
Then the two begot three
And three, all else.


http://www.mountainman.com.au/tao_5_9.html

I like this too:

What others have taught
I also shall teach:
If a violent man does not come
To a violent death,
I shall choose him to teach me.

[indigobusiness]

20. "The Way"...not "The Ways".

All roads lead to The Way, or to Rome (depending on direction).

Can I whip your ass before your next lesson, or are you overly spanked, already?

What others have learnt
I also shall learn:
If a violent man does not come
To a violent death,
I shall choose him to learn me.

---

(Good link, thanks for that.)

[aneerkoinos]

22. No way! Way, dude!

There's no road, no path to the way. If you looked intently, you already noticed that Way is not the One. Or two or three.

>>Can I whip your ass before your next lesson, or are you overly spanked, already?<<

Are you sure you haven't already met your violent death? Not that I wouldn't enjoy a good spanking by skillfull hands. :)

>>What others have learnt
I also shall learn:
If a violent man does not come
To a violent death,
I shall choose him to learn me.<<

What is this lesson? It is the same as "love thy enemy".

Bush is my Guru, I love Bush.

Does that change the fact of life that Bush is my enemy? Not in the least. Only by truly loving my enemy, by truly making him my Guru, I can overcome the blinding hatred and self-importance, which is the Losers Path, and find the Way to beat my Beloved Guru to pulp.

Wellcome to the Path of the Warrior, my friend, consider yourself initiated!

[indigobusiness]

24. Of course there is no Path to The Way. How could there be?

The Way is its own Path.

But, I'm doing my damndest to amuse you. You, who would deign welcome ME to the Path of the Warrior...with your lesson in loving enemies by making them Gurus. KILL THE BUDDHA. There is no making Gurus of enemies in that lesson. Only seeing oneself in the other.

Now bend over and take your spanking like a man. Make Zorba proud.

[aneerkoinos]

26. Buddha is dead

It is not born, has no duration, cannot die. So why kill it?

If you want to amuse me, do better, each time better. I get so easily bored.

>>You, who would deign welcome ME to the Path of the Warrior...with your lesson in loving enemies by making them Gurus.<<

No matter what I'm deigning, surely you are not feigning that you were a Warrior before I initiated you (backward causation and all that)? Sure, the capital "ME" suggests that your first attention doesn't yet accept loosing self-importance and the Warrior nature of your second attention, which is still taking baby steps. I'm not talking to your Capitol "ME", so forgeddaboutim.

OK, now I am, my young apprentice: Forgetabout "seeing your precious Ego in the mirror, aka oneself in the other", cut the bullcrap, don't tell me the Warrior in you doesn't have enemies, them petty Tyrants (I'm not saying Bush is the One for you, that was just example), cut the FUCKING UP the oochie schmoochie lets be nice bullcrap, because that's pure evil, Losers Path. I've seen your nature, it's not nice nor should it be, so don't call it bad self: Truth is Noble, loosen up and loose your foolishnes, BE a fool. The losers are both the enemy and the self-importance, they are the same, there's no "You", just the way you act. Only thing that matters is Winning, and Dying by winning, which is the same, and which have nothing to do with the awfully nice self-importance, your reflection in the mirror of all the foolish eyes.


AND FOR FUCKS SAKE, STOP ARGUING AGAINST IMMEDIATELY, don't even try! This is not a debate, just see your true self, who is Noble, and deal with your enemies RUTHLESSLY with weapons of love and respect, because that is the only way to beat them.

[indigobusiness]

27. Not as long as you keep creating Gurus out of your enemies.

The self-important 'ME' was further effort at amusing you. I risked piercing, with contradictory vanity, your realm of boredom, but the boil of your festering and humorless existence remains impenetrable...at least to my humor.

I must admit, it's nice to see you not so coy, and in the midst of your swirling, clouded clarity you've lurched into the clear light.
Your right has become the equal of your wrong. You speak like a teacher, finally...for that I'm grateful, and listenning.

You still should be spanked.

[aneerkoinos]

28. The point that is lost to you

Is that it is not YOUR or MINE sense of humor, we have none. Occasionally, when You or I don't try to entertain, but loosen up, flush, flood and go with the flow the DISCUSSION tends to be very amusing. Tragicomedy is not personal, it is situational. And it does not happen by trying, but by staying observant and vigilant, by stalking. Sometiems by degenarating into rhyme and alliteration, or what equals them in semantics. But the uncertainty principle states that if you try to be amusing and funny, you aint.

So You have pinpointed a teacher, a guru (in me), instead of taking a lesson, instead of listening, instead of opening your heart to the potential whaddayaknow behind the preaching intention. So here's a lesson to you, one more: everyone, everything, every situation is a guru. Sometimes an intention arises and blasts away by preaching (in my case usually when I'm drunk), but I refuse to be attached to and slaved by such intentions, just accept being an occational drunken vessel. So why should you be attached to my self-importance any more than I am?

But by the magic of words, some intention arose that made you a Warrior, your denial or acceptance of that fact is irrelevant. You were searching and asking for a path and at a loss, so you were given One, now learn to walk it.

UGH



PS: Warrior does not speak in conditional, he makes it happen. So don't promise to spank me, just do it!

[indigobusiness]

31. Now you are just arguing style about something long established.

I've been spanking you all along.

Your sermon of spontaneity had my hallelujah. But still I try to make you laugh (and not just you)...intentionally, and not just through my frequent folly. Yep, all things guileless are better, always, than guile. Cleverness is no virtue. Still it can be laugh out loud funny...sometimes. Your characterization of the amusing is better than most. Quality laughs are a good thing in this realm of preaching and listening and occasional drunken no-thingness.

I'm not here to argue.

[aneerkoinos]

34. Guile

You allways make me look a dictionary, on purpose I'm sure.

Being spanked by you all along was amusing, but I'd like to get the hurtfull feeling also, could you please?

Intentions, there's a lesson, they are not anybodies, mine or your, they just act, and we act along, beside, against or in denial. Somehow, intentions are the truest thing we can observe, so better be alert about them.

>>Yep, all things guileless are better, always, than guile.<<

No, this is as wrong as can be. Guile is allways better than not. First thing about exposure to truth is to deceive one's self.


I'm here to argue. And to take no arguments. Bloody pissed I am I am, which means drunk ye yankee bastids!"

[indigobusiness]

35. Well damn the torpedoes and man the yardarms, then.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." --HL Mencken.

I know what "pissed" means in your heathen tongue. And don't lecture me on the nature and meaning of guile when you had to look it up. You'd better don your best Viking helmet, and gird your loins. The game's afoot.

Don't you dare blame your self-contradiction on your cups, you sot.

[aneerkoinos]

36. I've created a monster

And I've got only myself to blame, Frankenmother.

Go pick up a real enemy, I'm just your practice dummy. The weasel in you just thinks I'm safe, but I'm not even worthy.

I acted like that in my youth, trying out my drunken power, picking up the sorry mind of a friend, showing it to herself in all the sad cruelty and shame of "truth". She never forgave me and died of cancer few years ago, unhappily.

So, think twice or thrice, before picking up your Guru-enemy...

But just because I'm curious, what drove you to seeking shelter at Buddha's lap, and what did that lap dance give you?

[indigobusiness]

37. Safe? You? Not even my weasel is that stupid.

I don't go looking for enemies, and I didn't go looking for the Buddha. Anymore than I will go looking to wake up tomorrow morning. If I do.

[aneerkoinos]

38. I woke up this morning

With a headache. And noticed that the cat had peed in my mouth.

[indigobusiness]

39. At least...

you noticed.

[aneerkoinos]

29. This I can't stress enough

Only way to learn and win is to make your enemy your Beloved Guru. These words obviously sound total blather to you, and you will not believe before you try, but these words will not go away and you will remember them next time in situation where you are offered a lesson by a beloved enemy, and you will act accordingly and learn with your full body and mind, not just words.

[indigobusiness]

32. No, I agree wholeheartedly.

You are spot on. The lesson is a good one. Fundamental. How could I deny it?

The fandango caught me up attempting a hairsplitting nuanced distinction that got lost in the folderol.

You win.

[sam sarrha]

7. The Buddhists do not have a 'Bible' .there are large collections of the

Buddhas teachings known as the "Three Baskets" or Tipitaka in Pali and the "Tripitaka" in Sanskrit.. it is a large collection. in legal sized books it is said to be about 6 or 7 feet long

but that Sutra is a favorite of mine... when i was a kid we lived in the mountains in Oregon, my father was always pointing to thing and saying "see that".. i never knew what the hell he was talking about.

when i took my son out, i would put two sticks in the ground and sight along the tips like a gun sight to give him the idea of what i was trying to do by poinitng..

[indigobusiness]

8. You just confirmed how meaning is often obscurred by words.

Three Baskets/Tipitaka/Tripitaka/Bible: What's the difference?

[sam sarrha]

30. Big difference..the Bible is a Christian Book dictated by a specific god.

the Koran is a Book channeled through Mohamed by a specific Deity that called itself "Allah".

The Tipitaka is a collection of the teachings in three distinct groups by a man.

you cant call the Bible a Tipitaka, it has 2 parts.. and conversely you cant call the Tipitaka a Bible.. by virtue of the fundamental definition of the words. the Bible and Koran are Sacred books of a religious nature. Buddhism is not a Religion...no god, no creator..no baby sitters, no savorers.. no Prophets..no Messiah, you are responsible for your own actions and consequences.. and shit is guaranteed to always happen in samsara.

the Tipitaka is more of a Manual, Map, Suggestions or Guide out of 'Samsara' as told by a man who emphasized that the nature of creation was unimportant and could only be a distraction.. Where-as the two former are guides dictated by a god, Creator of the universe and its "Manager", on how to get to Heaven.


the meanings were not 'obscured by the words'.. the words have very specific definations..as Nouns. the obscuration could be because of confusing the definition using the word Bible 'commonly' as an adjective or adverb.. then projecting that use as a noun. such as the popular gun encyclopedia entitled.. "Shooters Bible"... or "he practiced Buddhism 'Religiously'". That is why the French are so Beechey' about the use of their language.. they dont want us messing French up like we messed up English...

that is not to say words dont obscure... one can not define the 'whole' relative to any of its parts.. and words, in our language, are necessarily "Parts".

In Buddhism "Nothing Inherently Exists" ..things only conventionally exist... that is why there is the Emphasis on Meditation, Meditation is the Direct Experience... indescribable by words.

Even the 'Tao te Ching' begins with.. The Tao expressed in words is not the true Tao....

there isn't anything inherently wrong with the words. The words used as poetry can be ethereal. Music can do the same. so can color on an artists pallet.. but they in themselves are not the thing. Thus Duality. there isn't anything inherently wrong with duality.. "Duality" isn't the problem.. the problem seems to be our "Ignorance" of how it works... and the consequences of how we deal with a unified Matrix, believing in duality.

Universe= Uni..single.. from the Latin, Unus: 1

[indigobusiness]

33. Bible was a word long before Christianity

Bi·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bbl)
n.

The sacred book of Christianity, a collection of ancient writings including the books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Hebrew Scriptures, the sacred book of Judaism.
A particular copy of a Bible: the old family Bible.
A book or collection of writings constituting the sacred text of a religion.
often bible A book considered authoritative in its field: the bible of French cooking.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin biblia, from Greek, pl. of biblion, book diminutive of biblos, papyrus, book, from Bublos Byblos.

---

It basically just means book, or collection of texts.

This is another example of how essential meaning is clouded by connotation.

[Desertrose]

10. Thanks Indigo.....and yes.....

that darn duality will be the downfall of mankind yet :evilgrin:


..."let every disciple take good heed not to become attached to words as being in perfect conformity with meaning, because Truth is not in the letters."

....and about the word thing...so true...look at how we argue over their meaning here in these forums.....and the truth is never in the letters.....

:hi: great post :)

:hug: DR

[indigobusiness]

13. Hi Rose, thanks. Watch where you step...beware of quasi-Greeks

bearing quasi-gifts.

[Desertrose]

16. Thank you sweet Indigo, for laying down your cloak

of enlightenment so that I do not misstep in this wild dance and slip on a quasi-Greek and knock from his tenuous grasp the basket of quasi-gifts.

(I've noticed that at times the path seems almost littered with them....)

:evilgrin:
DR

[aneerkoinos]

18. Cloaking device

I'm sooooooooooo offended by your innuendo, dear effendis. :)

I bear no gifts, but if you'll behave, I'll let you lick my loukoumi.

[Desertrose]

19. why take offense when none was intended?

If I BEHAVE...and what is behaving to you.....?



Most beauteous heart shaped treat....attempting to tempt me when I am cutting back on the sweets.....:eyes:

[aneerkoinos]

23. Why not?

I enjoy my offence and take all I can, your intentions are your problem, not mine.

>>If I BEHAVE...and what is behaving to you.....?<<

Behaiving. Didn't your Mama tell you how... ?

>>Most beauteous heart shaped treat....attempting to tempt me when I am cutting back on the sweets.....<<

There's only instant gratification, all else is temptation, Devils schemes..... would you like a full tour into the art of Greek Zacharoplasteia?

[indigobusiness]

25. "...lick my loukoumi."? What's next...

fumunda?

[indigobusiness]

21. Beware my cloak, as well.

It is much like Ringo's, in A Hard Day's Night.