If you prove the existence of God then you prove he doesn't exist

[boolean]

Do I sound confusing? Let me explain.

In the world today, there's a lot of shit happening. Wars, famines, genocides, crimes, injustice, etc. Whenever we ask "why can't God step in and make things right?", we're expressing our belief that he has the power to do so because, well, he's God. He can do anything. When something good happens to us, we usually express our joy with exclamations of "It's a miracle!" and "Praise the LAWWD!".

Now let's imagine that we had incontrovertible evidence that God exists. Say he gave a press conference and showed us his official deity certification. Multiple media outlets caught this on tape and now we all know, yep, God exists, no need to question it anymore. He's right over there. "Yo G, hows it goin'?" "Not too bad, just chillin' out wit ma hommies, sup wit you?"

One would think that knowing God is right there, he'd put a stop to all the bad things happening in the world. We'd all pray to him and we'd expect to have our prayers answered. But as we know, that doesn't really happen. We'd give him a call and he'd do another press conference to explain himself. "What the fuck, God? We're asking you for all this shit and you're not delivering.", we'd say. He'd start making all sorts of excuses. "You guys have free will. I don't have enough power. I was in the bathroom at the time", etc etc.

Would he even be "God" anymore? Here we all thought that God can do anything. He's GOD, for God's sake! But now, there he is, making up all this shit about why he can't help us. Eventually, we'd all come to realize that this guy claiming to be God isn't really God at all.

The whole point of having a God to believe in is just that: To have a God to believe in. You cannot prove the existence of God because then he would cease to be God.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. You are assuming something

namely, that God is something apart from everything else. There are many who have the concept that God is everything, and that God's workings follow the laws of nature, etc, and therefore would not follow your premise at all.

[astonamous]

2. Very good point! LOL! Some people are going to

take this the wrong way or at least differently than I have...if you didn't mean this to be funny, too bad, I'm laughing.

Trudy
www.pryorsplanet.com

[cain_7777]

10. No, it's a horrible point and not even logical.

If a god did exist and made it known to us, then didn't fix something that we percieve as evil, who are we to question when good and evil is all relative. The arguement is flawed and really works against the atheist point of view when this crap is put out to represent us.

[astonamous]

12. It leads me to think

the responsibility for changing what is happening in the world lies with us...

...rather than waiting for someone or something else to fix things.

Trudy
www.richardpryor.com

[boolean]

13. Good and Evil is all relative?

So if I ask God to stop people from killing other people, and he doesn't do anything, I'm not to question? Because there's a gray area regarding whether or not murder is evil?

[Finder]

3. Wonder if we would then crucify this guy? n/t

[greyl]

4. No,

it would only mean that your concept/definition was wrong.

[JAYJDF]

5. Typical nonbeliever crap.

Don't worry, it's okay to not believe if you choose. Don't try to rationalize it to others. Or are you trying to convince yourself? You should watch Bruce Almighty again. You probably missed a couple good points.

[greyl]

6. I'd say it's quite a bit below average. nt

[Goblinmonger]

7. I wonder

If one of the atheists that frequents R/T would put "Typical believer crap" as a subject for a response to a theist's message about something religious oriented, what do you suppose would be the reaction to that?

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. That's funny. It sounded like a believer's speech to me.

God's existance cannot be dependent upon proof, because proof is dependent upon limits. Therefore, any proof you have of god, would not be proof of God.

No?

[alpizzy]

9. I promise...

to stop trying to rationalize it to others if the Born Agains stop
trying to save my soul.

[boolean]

14. HAW HAW HAW

I just LOVE how you assume I'm a nonbeliever when my whole point is that you have to believe in God, not prove he exists.

[hyphenate]

11. I discount any "god"

who would or could be defined as flesh and blood. A god who consists of such would be a "man or woman" not a god, and certainly would be vulnerable to almost anything we would throw at him or her.

To me, the only "god" that can ever exist is the force of the universe, creating not only our little spot in the galaxy, but all--the universe, the multiverse, and anything else that might exist beyond our knowledge. A god like that is less a "being" than a phenomenon, and perhaps shouldn't even be considered a "god" in the first place.

If there are "prophets" or such on earth, I don't believe thay they actually represent a divine being. IMO, there are two kinds of "saviors" or "prophets" or whatever you wish to call them: those in it for the money or power, and those who are in it because they believe they represent a "god" but are, in fact, a bit addled in their brains and should have seen a shrink the minute they started to babble.

As far as "miracles" are concerned, some of the things we're doing in science now would have looked like miracles a thousand or more years ago. Who is to say that some people from the future didn't go back in time and scare the bejesus out of the natives and thus made themselves look like "gods" in the process? Anyone with a megalomania complex could certainly have improved his lot by daring to do that, and no one would be the wiser.

As I said, this is my opinion, and while I know I'm in a minority, I can never be convinced that there is a "god" that has singled out planet Earth as its favorite, especially when the rest of the universe is considered. Earth is a backwater planet in a backwater solar system in the elbow of the Milky Way. Considering the vastness of even our own galaxy, and then considering the infinity of the universe, we are smaller than a molecule in the whole scheme of space and existence.

Yes, there are likely many alien races out there who might have some bearing on our belief system--aliens who could and likely would have exploited humans millennia ago, and therefore would have looked like gods to the primitive people they interacted with--but the thing is, they would still not have been "gods" other than as they appeared to the humans they met. Humans were likely to believe just about anything and everything they were told, simply because they didn't know any better.

Unfortunately for these potential "gods" humans turned out to be a very violent species, and would likely have been abandoned by any of the more benevolent ETs for that reason. And it would have been difficult to convince them that we would ever be worthy of respect because of our propensity to create and wage war.

If aliens had never visited us, the situation would likely have been similar, regardless--we would still have emerged as a violent species, which we still are, but we would have been more creative and resourceful in some of our inventions. And if that were so, those who held power would have been greedy and malicious bastards who promised a "heaven" and/or a "utopia" for those who were powerless to do anything other than work hard all their lives. To these underlings, slaves and other indigent folks, they had to believe--for their own sanity--that there had to be a reward for living horrific lives with nothing but despair. The church, the conquerers, the rulers and the badasses who kept people under their control would have fudged details and created religious beliefs simply for that reason.

Mythology has been around for as long as there has been civilization. A belief in some sort of entity who demands servitude, his or her wishes granted, and the fealty of the population has been around just as long, and powerful men could twist that mythology to suit their own purposes. A priest with a family? Nope--he'd be obligated to save his family first instead of the church. So, celibacy! Fisherman complaining that they're a dying trade? Nope--Friday must be fish day. People getting riled up because their overlords are charging too high in taxes? Make them look at it as though tithing or taxes are their investment in their own futures.

If Mohammed, Jesus, Lao Tzu or any one of a thousand different prophets did exist, they likely forced the men in power to slightly change the script and nothing more. But people have this need to be comforted and feel like they're necessary, and that can't happen in a secular world for many. They need the "presence" of something more, of something just beyond their sphere of knowledge to give them continued hope that there is more than just their misery, and that is why religion remains, and why people like Falwell, Robertson and their ilk are so successful. They remind people every week that there is more than just our time here on earth, and that only the good will get that reward. Even if they're merely blowing gas out of their asses, people will believe them because they want to.

[Evoman]

15. Nice try, but it doesn't really work.

I can almost understand what your saying, but the problem lies in the definition. This god doesn't sound all that good, or maybe he's just lazy...(i.e hes not choosing to do something, because he doesn't want to, not because he can't).

There are a lot better arguments to why god doesn't exist, including the paradoxes involved in being omniscient or omnipotent.

Nice try, but no dice.

[boolean]

16. Not really saying that...

All I'm saying is that you cannot prove the existence of God, becuase if you could, he wouldn't be God anymore. That doesn't mean he doesn't exist, it only means you can't prove it.

[Random_Australian]

29. That is a sort of reason why you can't prove it, but really,

God is allowed to be uncaring, and still be God. That is part of bieng infinite, you don't have to have any characteristics.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. Well, this would make sense if we all agreed

on the definition of God. You appear to see Him as a separate entity.

I see Him as being the Universe. He IS everything. All my thoughts, all my enemy's thoughts. The good, bad, inbetween. My job is to attempt to stay connected with that force, that energy, and use it for good.

[SPKrazy]

19. That's Very Much What I Believe As Well Granny

and I don't see how the OP's post even makes a great deal of sense anyway.

[sutz12]

18. Knowledge undermines faith....

As does rational thinking. That is why the fundies have been on a crusade to undermine education and science in America.

Personally, I find it embarrassing that nearly 50% of Americans consider Intellignet Design a viable scientific theory. That's a whole lot of kool-aid IMO.

[SPKrazy]

20. Probably 70% Of That 90% Don't Understand I.D.

to someone that believes in God, the idea that God and evolution are compatible is quite common.

the fundies don't believe it.

I would suspect that a lot of people that think ID would be okay understand it as some way of stating that the universe has evolved through a divine plan.

What they probably don't understand is that it isn't just a disclaimer on the front end that notes that another theory is that there is an "intelligent designer(s)" but we aren't going to talk about that. That it is in fact, a pseudoscientific viewpoint that says that an intelligent designer designed the universe and the earth and all it's species, and attempts to define this as an alternative to the current scientific view.

I don't know if this is coming out the way it is in my mind so I'll try to simplify it.

a) I think most Americans who support ID don't really know what it is
b) I think that if they did, there would be a smaller percentage of people supporting it
c) that ID is a pseudoscientific explanation that runs parallel to the scientific explanation, but wants to be on the same standing as the scientific explanation.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. I haven't really studied ID

and I don't want it taught. But I personally believe that there was some level of design in creation. I don't believe it was a random accident. But I also think it is an excercise in futility to bother about it too much.

So I guess I'm part of the 50%.

[boolean]

22. Evolution has nothing to do with random chance

You didn't explicitly say it, but for the purposed of this reply I'm going to assume that you think evolution somehow involves the idea of things happening "by accident". This shows you also have a lack of understanding on the theory of evolution.

Evolution is about small mutations happening to living things and whether or not those mutations benefit those living things so that they thrive in their environment. "Survival of the fittest" and all that. For example, we all know that mutations occur today, even in humans (which we call "birth defects"). Say a birth "defect" happens to a baby lion cub and that baby lion has sharper claws because of it. That lion will grow up and be able to hunt better than the other lions. It'll then find a mate and more baby lions will come out that have this gene that gives them sharper claws. Those baby cubs will grow up to hunt better than the rest of the lions.

Eventually, enough lions with sharper claws will be eating all the food, while the lions without the sharp claws will slowly die out. Thus the small mutation that was beneficial took the place of the old lions and we now have a "new" lion. The lion spices is said to have evolved.

The process of evolution takes MILLIONS of years. It wasn't just an overnight thing. We may seem to be "designed", but evolution is an excellent theory to explain where this so called design came from. It wasn't just one random accident, it was many small mutations, which are not exactly unheard of.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. Of course I understand that

but many small mutations is, nevertheless, a random exercise.

I just choose to believe the whole scheme had some help.

But really, I can' t think of anything more useless to argue about! It has nothing to do with the price of bread, as my father used to say.

[InaneAnanity]

26. It's not useless at all

We've effectively stopped evolution among humans. Understanding evolution will allow us to understand how to cope with what our society has wrought on our species.

Evolution is very important to understand, and its unfortunate that you don't think that too.

[greyl]

27. "We've effectively stopped evolution among humans." ?

Where do you get that idea?

(define "we" first, please)

[Random_Australian]

28. No we haven't stopped evolution.

Sheesh. That does it, I am going to do write up the atemporal aspect of evolution. So there.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God.

"For proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." "But," says man, "the babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist, and therefore you don't. QED." "Oh, dear, I hadn't thought of that," says God, and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. "Boy, that was easy," says man. He then goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

Douglas Adams, The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[InaneAnanity]

25. It only works

If you accept that a god would want to fix everything that could be fixed. Many believers would say that the problems on earth are a test of some sort, that everything bad happens for an important reason.

Its all crap really, but I'm just telling you what their argument would be.