Too weird for a title

[cosmik debris]

Apparently a Texas law says that taking orders from God is a form of mental illness while taking orders from Satan is a form of sanity.

I saw this on the web site News of the Weird. It is NOT my statement, and I withhold judgment, but not amusement.

“The Texas insanity-defense law requires that a delusional person acting under "orders" from God be judged not guilty by reason of insanity, but that a delusional person acting under "orders" from Satan be considered sane, according to prominent forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz (according to a June USA Today story). Thus, Dietz believed that Andrea Yates (at press time being retried in Houston) knew that drowning her kids upon command of someone "without moral authority" (such as Satan) was wrong and thus that she did not qualify for insanity-law protection. Dietz later concluded the opposite in another Texas child-killing case because God had supposedly assured that mother that her kids would be better off dead. ”
http://www.uexpress.com/newsoftheweird/

[Joanne98]

1. Texas is a shit hole.

[WatchWhatISay]

2. You'd have to know our legislature

to understand how we decide such things.

[gordianot]

3. What if they take orders from George W. Bush?

[cosmik debris]

4. Taking orders from Satan = sanity

Unless you think * = God

Then you are insane!

[gordianot]

24. Excellent logic!

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. This makes perfect sense and I will tell you why.

Talking with my pastor's wife recently I told her that a psychic acquaintance had passed on a message from my mother to me. She was a bit upset and she said that those kind of things were not of God. God doesn't speak to people like that anymore because there are no more prophets.

So given that this is Texas, I think I know where the influence for that defense law came from.

[unpossibles]

6. doesn't G Dub say he takes orders from God?

can we lock him up then and retroactively undo all of his insane policies?

[byronius]

7. Seems perfectly logicable. Satan is a Republican.

And therefore cannot be held responsible for anything, ever. Someone else must be blamed. Ah -- the Victim. Yes.

[jeff30997]

9. LOL! Good one!

:rofl:

[charlie]

8. "at press time being retried in Houston"

She's being retried because this Dietz character presented illustrative testimony using an episode of Law and Order that never existed. He's the reason the conviction was thrown out on appeal. Why he's still being feted as some kind of "expert", I have no idea.

[cosmik debris]

10. You have no idea?

In Texas fiction is just as good as fact. That's Texas! And that's why we elect Republicans!

[charlie]

16. Yeah, I know. Texas is a whole nuther planet

(ex-Texan here)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. I'm surprised they haven't supeanoed Jack McCoy

Oh yeah, he's fictional, isn't he? :) Sort of like the L&O Ep That Never Was....

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. But both are a form of delusion

unless this implies that the state of Texas actually believes there IS a Satan who tells people to do bad things.....then I have to wonder who is really delusional.

[cosmik debris]

12. You nailed it! n/t

[Igel]

20. It would, but the original assertion was

a bit off.

"Says" = "allows the inference that". Rather different things.

[SPKrazy]

29. I Would Say They Were As Well

the logic (I guess) of the forensic psychiatrist as I see it is that if a person is delusional and hallucinating and thinks God is telling them to kill, then they are not sane legally (legal definition of sanity is knowing right from wrong, and this theory here holds that someone who would think God was telling them to kill people would have to not know right from wrong, whereas if Satan was telling them the same thing in their hallucinations or delusions that the person would have to know that Satan is "bad" and would only tell them immoral things to do, therefore they knew it was immoral beforehand.)

The more I think about this, the more I can't see how it could be seriously used in a court of law.

But, remember that sanity in a legal sense is just knowing right from wrong.

So if person A believes God tells them to kill, but upon interviewing person A you discover that they believe God is a good and just God that would only tell them the right thing to do, then you would conclude they didn't know right from wrong.

If person B believes Satan tells them to kill, and upon interviewing person B you find that they are well aware that Satan is telling them "evil", wrong, or immoral things, but they do them anyway then you would conclude that the person, crazy as they are, knew right from wrong.


So it isn't really a very good test IMO, but it does have a bizarre kind of logic that can only be found in a sanity/insanity defense.

Most people know right from wrong, so if someone doesn't know it, or if that is their defense, I guess people get creative to come up with why they didn't know.

[Ian David]

14. Why did Bush commute the sentence of a Satanist, but not the Born-Again...

when he was governor of Texas?

[cosmik debris]

15. Because he is the Anti-Christ or so I'm told n/t

[rzemanfl]

17. Can we give Texas back to Mexico? n/t

[On the Road]

18. You Can Tell This Came from a Lawyer

People who obey voices find those absolutely compelling regardless of where they're supposed to originate. You can take the position that people are responsible for their actions, but this kind of distinction is ridiculous.

[cosmik debris]

19. Not so

it came from forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz who is nuttier than any lawyer ever was.

[On the Road]

35. Well, You are Correct, But the Qualifier "Forensic" Says it All

Might as well be a prosecuting attorney. This person obviouly has not concept of mental illness.

[SPKrazy]

46. He's A Nutcase, But His Role Is Not Diagnosing Mental Illness

just the capacity to tell right from wrong

he has a system by which he tells that

it sounds crazy to me

it has a logic that follows that craziness

I wouldn't trust it to be reliable.

But it says nothing about his ability to diagnose mental illness, just legal definition of sanity, which is ability to tell right from wrong

[SPKrazy]

21. Actually He Makes Some Wierd Kind Of Sense

although there is some sanity in this idea- there is also a paradoxical idea:

if one believes that "Satan" is immoral and chooses to follow the directions of Satan to do something then by logic, one did have to know that they knew that they were following the directions of something they considered "immoral" and to choose to do what was being asked by the immoral hallucination means that they realized they were committing an act that was by definition wrong (immoral)

whereas if they believe that God is telling them to do something (like kill) and they believe that God is a moral entity and that they are doing something "good" because "God" told them to, then they are delusional and don't know right from wrong.

in the first one they did wrong, but knew they were doing wrong because they were doing something that an entity that they knew was immoral told them too.

It's kind of pretzel logic, and what if the person believed that Satan was in fact "good" and God was "bad", then would this presumption hold true? I don't see how it could.

[cosmik debris]

22. That's amazing

If I had said "taking orders from God is a form of mental illness" I would have been throughly flamed and the moderators would have been alerted.

But when I attribute the same quote to a forensic psychiatrist, you find that it makes sense. I guess I need to start signing my posts Cosmik Debris M.D. Ph.D.

[SPKrazy]

23. No, I Think Taking Orders From God Is More Than Likely A Mental

Illness

of course one would have to examine the person and obtain collaborative evidence from others who are significant to the person to determine for sure, but being a mental health professional, I'd have to say that I've never met a person who claimed to hear God's (or the devil's)voice that didn't suffer from a severe, and usually heartbreaking, mental disorder.

The day I see a person who has no detrimental effects from their hallucinating and disorganized thinking, will be the day I wonder if I've really met someone that had heard God.

The most bizarre person I've met with a mental illness was at the time mute, and was communicating with writing.

She would write in one handwriting that was attributed to Jesus, a different and distinct handwriting that was attributed to as being Satan, and one that was her own handwriting that she usually wrote in.

She got better with some medications and stopped the writing and started talking.

But in the meantime she wrote some strange stuff. (Not all of it made sense)

So I think you're wrong on this one Cosmik

Did you have a good vacation, or wherever you said you were going?

[cosmik debris]

25. That Ten Commandments thing ???

Would you call that orders from God? Or is it really just the Ten Suggestions?

Yes I had a great vacation. I'm calling it the Manifest Destiny Tour. I followed the trail of Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce over the Rockies and through the Yellowstone area. Then I went to Mountain Meadows to see how those fun loving Mormons roll out the welcome wagon for Arkansas Ex-patriots like me. Then on the way home I discovered the Ludlow Monument in southern Colorado. But the Big Hole National Battleground was really the best part of the trip. Made me proud to be an American! Nobody slaughters women and children like the U.S 7th Infantry!

[SPKrazy]

26. No, They Were Commandments

and I believe that they were directed to the wandering Jews in the desert. Whether there really were tablets that were given to Moses, or that he came up with the story, they weren't bad for trying to keep a group of newly freed slaves together as they wandered around looking waiting for the promised land.

If someone today were to claim that they had received tablets from God, and spoke to God. I would want to a) see the tablets; b) talk to their family about how well they were actually functioning; c)would very likely think that they were ill unless proven otherwise.

Moses may be glad that he didn't live in this day and age as he would have had a harder time convincing people of that his burning bush happened, that he didn't just make the tablets, and that they were worth following.

In all truthfulness, I might be the hardest one to convince. I presume that if Moses existed, that he was a functioning person who led his people out of bondage, out of the wilderness, and led them well. I see no evidence that he had other symptoms of being mentally ill (as in impaired judgment, disorganized thought, inability to communicate, etc.) now maybe the writers of Exodus were just covering it all up. If so, they did so with the best intentions it would seem.

[cosmik debris]

27. Forget Moses

It is not about stone tablets, it is about what is written on those tablets. You seem to be saying that people who follow the ten commandments are mentally ill. And I don't wish to disagree with you, but I would like for you to clarify exactly how one act of religious faith can be mental illness while other acts of religious faith are normal behavior.

Or are you saying that the ten commandments are no longer applicable in the 21st century and are no longer orders to be followed.

Here it is in syllogism form.

The ten commandments are orders from God.
People who follow orders from God are mentally ill.
Therefore: People who follow the ten commandments are mentally ill.

You have already stated agreement to the second premise, and you implied agreement to the first premise. (But you used a past tense verb that leads me to believe that you are about to back out of that agreement)

Please demonstrate how this syllogism is NOT an accurate representation of your position.

[SPKrazy]

28. No, You Are Not Following Me

I believe the 10 commandments were/are from God, that they were addressed to a certain culture at a certain time, as to whether they are commandments to be followed in the 21st century, well my beliefs are that they probably are to be followed, but they aren't. I also, believe that Jesus commandments to love God and love your neighbor as you would yourself (badly paraphrased) then one is doing pretty well.

I think it is a mischaracterization to say that I said all people who "follow orders from God" are mentally ill. I said that I'd be a hard person to convince otherwise, but that if they were in fact a functional person with no other problems that were diagnosable, or treatable, that I would have to give their story more likelihood of having actually happened. I also said that I don't know if Moses really existed, or whether he really found tablets, but that the commandments were good for the Israelites that were wandering in the desert.

So, whether the commandments came as they are said to have in Exodus, or whether the writers were divinely inspired, or some other way of all of this happened, the fact that they were/are commandments that helped the Israelites wandering in the desert to survive socially, and they probably continue to provide guidance to people about right and wrong, I can't say that I know in fact that they came on tablets revealed to Moses.

I have probably just confused myself more than you with this, so let's review (for my sake)

a) I believe that the 10 commandments were divinely inspired whether they came on tablets given to Moses by God, or were embellishment stories about how the Israelites survived the years in the wilderness socially.
b) I believe that they are applicable today, however, I think that Jesus' commandments are a hell of a lot easier to remember and if one loves his/her neighbor as him/herself, they are a lot more likely to follow the commandments.
c) I don't believe that not following the commandments leads to immediate condemnation, as I believe more that God is, and is in everything, than I do in a punishing and vengeful God.
d) To me, the likelihood that the 10 commandments were written to the Israelites specifically to help them is greater than that they were written to be the laws of all lands and peoples forever, or that they are some kind of code to "get to heaven"
e) I don't believe that people that follow the 10 commandments are mentally ill, I have trouble following that linear connection anyhow.
f) mentally ill people generally have more than just a single symptom, like a hallucination that they think is from God. They usually have delusions, hallucinations of all kinds, and disorganized thinking.
g) how did we get here exactly from my agreement with the logic of the OP's forensic psychiatrist? Oh yeah, mental illness and God, and hallucinations.
h) I'm glad you had a good trip, and it sounds like an interesting one as well.
i) we do live in a country that has a history of committing genocide, and atrocities against their perceived enemies; has anything really changed for the better?

[cosmik debris]

31. How can I follow you when you keep changing the subject

The original issue is: are people who follow orders from God mentally ill.

You said: "I Think Taking Orders From God Is More Than Likely A Mental Illness."

I asked if the Ten Commandments are orders from God and you said: "No, They Were Commandments". And: "I believe the 10 commandments were/are from God".

So the only difference we have left to settle is whether "commandments" equal "orders".

The who, when, why, where, and what for are just red herrings that you are using to try to avoid facing the fact that you are in an intractable position.

The syllogism says it all:

The ten commandments are orders from God.
People who follow orders from God are mentally ill.
Therefore: People who follow the ten commandments are mentally ill.

There is no way Moses or Jesus or the wandering tribes of Israel can change that unless you dispute one or more of the premises to which you have already agreed.

[SPKrazy]

37. Let's Try Again:

1) I said "I think taking orders from God is MORE THAN LIKELY a mental illness"- I've also told how I would try to ascertain whether the person in fact had a mental illness by looking at their ability to function, interviewing family and others, etc. In Moses' case, if he existed and the story is true, I would ascertain based on what is written about him that HE WAS NOT mentally ill, as he was able to lead people for a period of 40 years and was not thrown out. Think about it, he had no army, no secret service to protect him. We have a mentally ill pResident who thinks God has spoken to him. He is not very functional, he has been enabled by others all of his life, and we would not tolerate him being our leader for 40 years. (I hope anyhow)

2)Commandments=orders in my mind, so I was saying they were orders.

3) I'm not in an intractable position as I have well stated my method for ascertaining the sanity/insanity of a person (not legal, although I've done that as well) and Moses (if he existed) comes out with a 99.9% probability of being SANE.

4) as for the 10 commandments and people who follow them being insane? Here's a list of a modernization of them that my 6 year old son got from vacation bible school:
1. Put God first
2. Worship God only
3. Use God's name with respect
4. Attend Church weeklly
5. Obey your parents
6. Don't hurt others
7. Be a good friend
8. don't steal
9. Don't lie
10. Don't tease others
(I thought it was good to have it put simply for him)

The 10 commandments are read, written, and interpreted differntly by different religions.

the basic meanings are:

1. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me
2. Thou shalt not worship graven images
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy
5. Honor thy father and mother
6. Thou shalt not murder
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor

the statements don't sound insane to me, or to be contrived by someone with disorganized thinking that would be indicative of mental illness.

Therefore, Moses was in all probability not mentally ill.
It's a fallacy in logic to assume that anyone that would follow someone even if they were mentally ill, is ill themselves. But he wasn't mentally ill, and people who follow him are not mentally ill based on the decision to follow the 10 commandments. It's a silly "gotcha" kind of assertion to claim that if someone is following the 10 commandments then they are following orders from God so therefore they are mentally ill. I did not say any such thing. I was talking about receiving orders from hallucinations in the context of a mentally ill person, not the 10 commandments, or any other part of the bible. One can read the bible and believe it without meeting any criteria for mental illness.

Therefore your premise that people who follow the 10 commandments are mentally ill is based on a false logic assumption in the first place.

One thing about you Cosmik, is that you seem to look for something to try to turn it back on someone. Maybe I deserve that, I don't know. But I think this is bordering on absurd at this point.

Back to the OP: It's a bizarre kind of logic to look at legal definition of insanity being based on whether the orders perceived to have been received were from God or Satan. It's a premise that I can follow, but I wouldn't agree with it as there are too many variables. Yes, if a person realizes they are doing something wrong and does it anyway, they are by legal definition sane (not medical definition) but if they do something wrong thinking they are doing the right thing (as in believing that God told them to do it) then they are legally insane (can't tell right from wrong)

I'm not a forensic anything. I think this test is bizarre as your OP title implies it is wierd, too wierd.

[cosmik debris]

39. All red herrings aside

"...your premise that people who follow the 10 commandments are mentally ill is based on a false logic assumption in the first place."


It was not a premise, it was a conclusion based on the two premises with which you agreed. (the simplest form of syllogism) If there is a false assumption, it was your assumption not mine.

"...you seem to look for something to try to turn it back on someone"

It is called a mirror. Perhaps you don't want to see yourself the way others see you. That is OK with me. after all, it is "bordering on absurd at this point"

[SPKrazy]

42. It's Hopeless I Guess?

I feel I've well made my point of how one would differentiate between a person who is mentally ill and having delusions and hallucinations and one who MIGHT be experiencing something that is not illness.

I've made my point that taking orders from hallucinations and following the 10 commandments are not the same thing at all.

I've pointed out that you seem to go around looking for some perceived flaw, and you talk about holding up a mirror.

Well here's your mirror Cosmik.

You're the one calling my points "red herrings", so what does that look like in your mirror?

I'm satisfied that I've made my point and made it clearly.

[bloom]

30. The problem is

that some people say that they ARE being directly "taught" by "God" - I heard someone say that the other day.

It's not that much of a leap for someone to think that such a person means they are "taking orders from" "God".


A psychiatrist ought to know whether someone is really delusional or not. I think it could be difficult for a Fundamentalist psychiatrist to be objective. S/he should be able to distinguish between people who think that they know "Gods" will (because they have been taught to expect to know what "God" would want ) or whether they are actually hearing/seeing "God" or "Satan" talking to her/him.

Since instances of actually seeing "God" are reported in the Bible - people who believe the Bible to be literal might have difficulty in distinguishing delusions from reality. Unless they think that that was all in the past - and nobody today sees "God" - unless s/he is delusional.

[cosmik debris]

32. Please don't overlook the fact

that this psychiatrist is nutty as a fruitcake. see post #8. Charlie is right you know!

[NMMNG]

33. What a load

Either both are a form of mental illness or neither is.

[cosmik debris]

34. About a year ago

I posted an article in this forum from the magazine Betterhumans, http://www.betterhumans.com/ relating the obvious similarities between religion and mental illness.

I was roasted, bar-b-qued, and toasted. Since that time I have wondered how I could get that subject back into this forum without burning up the servers.

It turns out that all I had to do quote a comedy site making fun of a nutty professor. Now Southpawkicker is defending the proposition and everyone else seems mildly amused. Which proves that it is not what I say, but how I say it.

So, you made the either-or comparison. Would you care to tell us which you believe?

[NMMNG]

36. Either could be possible

There are people who do hateful things under the guise of "following God's will" and they are merely following their own hate and bigotry but hiding it under the guise of their religion. It's just convenient that certain Bible verses coincide with their prejudices. When they pray to God it is typically to get confirmation for what they already want to do. They know exactly what they are doing and are completely sane.

There are people who do loving things under the guise of "following God's will" and but they would be inclined to do good things even without the Bible. The Bible merely gives guidance to their good nature. They may pray to God for guidance but they would never do anything harmful. They know exactly what they are doing and are completely sane.

There are people who do evil or benign things under the guise of "following Satan's will". They participate in rituals, "Black Sabbaths" and other Satanic rites. (There are people who practice Satanism just for kicks). Those prone to do evil owuld do so even if they did not practice Satanism. They know exactly what they are doing and are completely sane.


Then there are those that are un-categorically mentally ill. Their Christianity/Satanism is merely a function of their mental illness and becomes an obsession. This is often the case with people who have schizophrenia. They may be rational and in control of their mental faculties at times but at others they can have psychotic breaks and have no control. They can be under the control of delusions that God/Satan is telling them what to do, and they will act on these impulses. Without treatment they will undoubtedly become worse and more dangerous.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

38. SPK

was just having some fun with following the logic path, that's all.

And of course it's HOW you say it? Don't tell me you are just figuring that out?

[cosmik debris]

40. Yes, I am just now figuring that out.

I would have thought a year ago that this forum would welcome a dispassionate discussion of an intellectually based article on mental health and religion.

BOY WAS I WRONG!

But when a fruitcake psychiatrist who has been discredited all over Texas addresses the same issue, not only is it OK, but also the people who support the fruitcake are the same type of people who flamed the intellectual article.

There is a lesson in human nature here, and a lesson in irony.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

41. Just a spoonful of sugar

makes the medicine go down.

You can say a whole lotta bad shit if you do so with respect.

[SPKrazy]

43. Next Time I'll Put The Sarcasm Sign UP

I don't think the psychiatrist is much of anything but a fruitcake.

I did see his logic, bizarre as it was, there was at least some rhyme or reason to how he was determining it.

It has flaws from it's beginning.

Although, there is some crazy kind of sense in it, I can't imagine that it is being taken seriously by anyone, yet there it is in your link.

I'd forgotten that he was the one who lied about the law and order episode.

I don't remember the mental health and religion article. Although, my experience with you tells me that it was not one that I would have probably liked either:evilgrin:

Lighten your load, you just got back from your manifest destiny tour, and it sounds like it was at least interesting, and at best relaxing.

[Zhade]

44. Well, believing gods talk to you is, at best, far-fetched.

And of course there is ZERO way for any such individual to determine, even for themselves, that what they BELIEVE is their god(s)' voice is actually that.

When people tell me their god talks to them, I get very cautious. It usually indicates madness, or really persistent wishful thinking to the point of being able to ignore reality.

[SPKrazy]

45. If You Think You Hear God Talking To You

ask God a question that even you don't know the answer to.

If God answers that question correctly, then you might want to conceive that it is at least a possibility that God is talking to you.

Otherwise, you can rest assured that you are just having a psychotic break and need psychiatric help and medications.

:bounce:

[beam me up scottie]

47. But if he doesn't know the answer to the question,

how will he know if God gave him the right one?

[SPKrazy]

48. Look It Up On The Internets

or ask someone who does know the answer