Is it really so hard to grasp that life might end at death?

[BurtWorm]

Kauzlarich, now a battalion commanding officer at Fort Riley in Kansas, further suggested the Tillman family's unhappiness with the findings of past investigations might be because of the absence of a Christian faith in their lives.

In an interview with ESPN.com, Kauzlarich said: "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more — that is pretty hard to get your head around that. So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough."

Asked by ESPN.com whether the Tillmans' religious beliefs are a factor in the ongoing investigation, Kauzlarich said, "I think so. There is not a whole lot of trust in the system or faith in the system <by the Tillmans>. So that is my personal opinion, knowing what I know."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=tillmanpart1

The above comes from an article on ESPN.com (which I found via Pharyngula.com) about the reopening of the investigation into Pat Tillman's death in Afghanistan in the early part of the war. An NFL star who quit football to join the military after 9/11, Tillman was a hero on the right until it came out that he and his family are (allegedly) atheists, or at least, not religious, free-thinking, and left of center.

So the above story is outrageous enough, but what I have trouble getting my mind around is how anyone can be thick enough or unimaginative enough to consider the very real possibility that life is over when the body is dead. Is this really so hard to grasp?

Is there any religious member of this forum who has trouble with this concept? Please help me get my head around this.

[Teaser]

1. Speak for yourself mortals

even now, my plans to upload my consciousness to a vast network of Cray supercomputers continues to progress.

[prole_for_peace]

2. so... pissed... off... right... now...

i am not religious so i can respond from that standpoint but this guy is an asshole.

THEY ARE UNHAPPY BECAUSE THEIR SON IS DEAD!!! AT THE HANDS OF HIS OWN COUNTRY!!!!

i know people who believe in an afterlife and they are never HAPPY when someone dies.. who does this guy hang out with?

i should go back to bed and get under the covers

[CoffeeCat]

3. That's disturbing...

The entire premise of the article is that Tillman's family would be more happy that their son was murdered and the crime covered up--if they only believed that Pat was in heaven right now.

The Tillman's are unhappy because of the injustice. They don't like being lied to. They don't like cover ups. They hate that their son was used to drum up publicity for the war--and then treated like chattel.

To assert that Tillman's family problems are due to their lack of faith or belief in an after-life is really frightening.

[Lerkfish]

4. I believe there is life after death, but I also accept the possibility

I am mistaken. Therefore, I hold both concepts in my mind. The inablity to accept that either concept is possible, is part of the problem with how some people (like the guy in your example) view faith.

Some feel faith must exist in a vacuum, free from doubt. For this to work, they must reject anything and everything that introduces doubt. in this way, you have religious people outright denying patently obvious things, they feel they are protecting their faith by doing so.
I compare this to someone who tries to keep water pure by enclosing it in a barrel. Eventually, it stagnates because no water goes in and none comes out.

I feel faith is tempered by doubt. By allowing in things which cause doubt to arise, I can decide which things are valid, and choose whether to continue in my faith or not. In the case of life after death, I believe there is and I hope there is, but even if there is not, I still believe living a faithful compassionate life has value to me and those around me. So I therefore choose to continue in my faith.
I compare this to a bubbling fountain. As long as you remain connected to the source, all sorts of leaves and dirt can fall in the fountain, but they are by and large flushed out and the water is kept fresh because the water is continually flowing in and out.

[sam sarrha]

11. excuse meeee.... edited to appease

[Lerkfish]

13. was this supposed to be in response to my post?

It seems misplaced.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Oh, I know that death as the end is a possibility

But I also know that Newton said something about the fact that matter never totally disappears, but just changes form. So I know that when the body ceases breathing, it merely changes. Whether consciousness as we know it changes as well is something that no one really knows.

[BurtWorm]

15. However, you accept the strong possibility that consciousness

dissolves or dissipates as the matter that housed it dissipates. Physical bodies don't remain intact when they die--they disintegrate and reintegrate in other aggregates. It's not difficult to suppose that consciousness follows a similar fate. In fact atheists and other materialists find it more difficult to believe that any part of a dead organism continues intact after death. If we accept that a dead fly or a dead cell has no future as a fly or a cell, then we have to wonder where the line is drawn between those parts of human being that allegedly remain integrated for all eternity and every other organsim in nature. The concept of death as a total and complete end for the individual makes so much more sense than the concept of eternal life--at least the kind of eternal life the most simple-minded believers believe in, the kind where we're reunited with our loved ones and life just goes on and on and on.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. Well, I believe that everything has some form of consciousness,

including cells and subatomic particles. That consciousness changes is a given; but to think that consciousness simply "goes away" and no longer exists doesn't gibe with what I understand of science, and with my own personal experience.

[BurtWorm]

21. If it reconstitutes, as matter does, with other pieces of consciousness

then the identity it belonged to is no longer what it was.

I'm not trying to convince you I'm right, I'm just trying to support my contention that it's much easier to believe that persons completely cease to exist after death than that they continue in any form afterwards. Or, looked at another way, persons "work" toward ceasing to exist after death: their cells break down; their bodies disintegrate; they return to the soil. Their consciousness, I contend, goes permanently dark. Perhaps, if consciousness is an actual substance within every piece of matter, then the matter within might be said to have consciousness. But it is not very likely that the person whose body the mind belonged to will be "conscious" in anything like the way it was when alive after death. It's possible, but, for me, harder to believe than that the body and mind cease to exist.

[Ron Green]

23. Perhaps if you allow that consciousness does not have to keep its

individual identity, it makes more sense that it continues beyond physical death. Although we are bound by time and space while we're here on earth, our connection with the Infinite is certainly not bound by these. So the true and eternal self, to assume there is one, would be not separate personalities but one spirit. For me, this is God: seen dimly while we're here on earth, but eternal and infinite in the Universe.

[BurtWorm]

24. That's why what you believe is called "faith."

There is no good reason to suppose we're *not* bound by time and space after death, "certain" as you may believe such a supposition may be.

You say "we are bound by time and space" while alive, but then you say "our connection with the Infinite" is certainly not. You use the third person plural in both cases. Is the "we" in the first part the same subject as the "our" in the second part? It sounds as though you believe that after death, individual consciousness is released to become part of a unitary God. Then does it make sense to say that the consciousness we experience while alive is identical to what you believe it becomes after death? In other words, the "I" that is conscious when alive: is it really the same consciousness when it's melded into the one spirit? Would you say that that "I" has "life after death" if you believe its consciousness is located somewhere else after death?

[Ron Green]

25. Intimations of Immortality

was a poem by Keats or Shelley or one of those guys, and I think that throughout history and certainly throughout the lives of each of us we have had glimmers of a connection with "god," or with some spirit or being beyond our immediate physical existence. And yes, I suppose you'd have to say that to actually BELIEVE in such an entity would involve "faith," because there's absolutely no physical proof that this is the way it is.

However, the poem, along with thousands of years of writings and teachings and other kinds of activities, exist as testimony to the fact that the spiritual realm of human life is not only a way to be scared or fooled or made ignorant (although this is one practical function of it), but also a great source of wisdom and wonder, and a basis for learning and passing along truths that transcend legal or scientific knowledge. As others on this thread have said, I accept the possibility that after death our consciousness simply ceases to exist, but I also accept the possibility that we are all connected in a universal love, obscured by our fearful and temporary existence here on earth but nevertheless available to us if we connect with, rather than fear, others.

[BurtWorm]

26. What is an example of a transcendant truth the spiritual realm teaches?

One that isn't available to scientific or legal reasoning, I mean. Is "life after death" or "life for all eternity" one of those? Is it still a "truth" if it could very well be false?

[Ron Green]

27. It was Wordsworth, by the way. And the reading of his poem is one example

of such a truth beyond measure by science or law, that is, the creation and experience of art. The music of Mozart or of John Coltrane or Lefty Frizzell. What is it about Picasso or Michelangelo that makes their paintings timeless? These are things that can't be evaluated except by agreement that there is something "timeless" about them.

One other example is simply the countless experiences of people throughout history who have perceived things beyond conventional understanding. We can relegate this to the many ways that people are mistaken, fooled or otherwise wrong, or we can look at the similarities and accept that the realm of the unseen is sometimes apprehended, although dimly and incompletely.

[BurtWorm]

28. By realm of the unseen, of course, you mean realm of the supernatural

or spiritual or something like that, the question of whose existence is controversial--which makes me think "truth" is not the right word to talk about it. It's true that living things die and that human bodies decompose after death. Is it just as true that there's a realm "beyond" the physical? I doubt it.

[Ron Green]

30. Your doubt is your choice, and your right.

When I was an atheist I relied entirely upon reason, and I maintained, as you do, that consciousness ends at death. My beliefs have evolved as I've lived years of life, and I now believe more strongly that we are, as I've said, part of an infinite and eternal consciousness that I think of as "God." Although I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, my life of experience and study has led me to my current beliefs, and I intend to keep my mind open for further evolution.

[BurtWorm]

34. And now that you're older and wiser you *know* consciousness doesn't

end at death? Or is it that as you get closer to death, it's more comforting to believe life will just go on after it?

[Ron Green]

35. I was pretty arrogant in my **knowing** that God didn't exist and that

consciousness ended at death. I think now that I'm not as sure, but I'm more willing to accept the majority belief that there *is* a God, although for me not a personalized one but one as I've described.

I don't *know* that consciousness doesn't end at death, but here's something interesting I've found: To the extent that I pray (and I don't pray FOR something, I simply pray "thank you" for the blessings that I enjoy), good things show up in my life. I'm experiencing greater and greater abundance in my life since I've understood God not as a someone to ask for favors, but someone that has already favored me.

I think that to go toward death with peace of mind is the object of the whole deal.

[BurtWorm]

42. It's unusual for an atheist to "know" God doesn't exist.

I don't know many who have that certainty. Oddly enough, I've found that many more "former atheists" say they were certain there was no God. I wonder what that's about... ;)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. you're right

does that matter that consciousness changes? I'm just saying that consciousness is a form of energy, and that the laws of science as we know them say energy can change form, yet never be destroyed. To say that people cease to exist in any form is to ignore the laws of science. Which is fine if that is your concept. Obviously you are comfortable with it. Just realize that it doesn't dovetail with science, that's all.

[BurtWorm]

32. You're not saying consciousness is physical or material, are you?

Because that law only applies to things that are material.

[zeemike]

6. Well life in the physical world is over when the body dies.

That is for sure.
But whether the consciousness of self stops and whether there is another dimension to our life that goes on is what is at question.
There is scientific evidence that the world has more than three dimensions and that there is more to the universe than these three dimensions can explain.
So to turn the question around, why is it so hard for you to conceive of a universe that is more complicated than just the visible spectrum?
And that your consciousness just may be beyond time.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. I guess it all depends on your

definition of "life."

Worm dirt is awesome stuff.

[BurtWorm]

18. He must have meant worm *food* and just forgot that was the cliche

he was looking for. I don't know what "worm dirt" is.

[saracat]

8. And his point is? If the Tilmans were "Christian"

their son wouldn't be quite so "dead" so they wouldn't be as upset and looking for answers? This is sickening and from the military yet!
Of course Timan wasn't "Christian traslate "fundie Christian" so as not to offend "real" Christians, otherwise he never could have walked away from all that money.

[sam sarrha]

9. thats why all the Fundies support the Death Penalty, to send them to Heaven

:rofl: 'The death has never been proved in any way to be a Penalty of any kind'.. i stated this idea and it just wont catch on.. but it is true, it is cruel and unusual to meter punishment by conjecture.

but The Death Penalty has been proved to be a Blood Sacrifice for votes, by Politicians promising to kill prisoners in custody if elected.:wow: :shrug:

[BillE]

39. Heaven?

The fundies don't want them sent to heaven. They are pretty sure that "hell" will be waiting for them with eternal suffering.

[Democrats_win]

10. Ecclesiastes 9:5 ...the dead don't know anything...." Thus no afterlife.

The full verse:

For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/9-4.htm

This verse indicates that the dead are dead and are not in heaven. According to the Bible, the dead will one day be raised from the dead. It is wrong, from a Christian standpoint, to tell people that a dead person has gone to heaven for his reward.

Another verse to consider:

Ecclesiastes 9:4
For to him who is joined with all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

[Zebedeo]

36. Jesus said heaven awaits the faithful on the day they die

One of the criminals who was crucified next to Jesus said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Luke 23:42-43

[Beetwasher]

12. Well, Then I Guess Kauzlarich Won't Mind Being Fragged Now, Will He?

I mean, after all, he'll be going to a better place, right? He should be hoping for death. Why bother trying to live? As a matter of fact, we shouldn't even bother prosecuting murderers anymore since they're really doing everyone a favor, right?

Idiots.

[Lars39]

14. I think this goes deeper than just him not being able to understand.

imo,the military is encouraging this type of thinking(you're dead, but you're not if you're in heaven) in order to help desensitize the troops to their own deaths.
What came to mind when I read that is the 'virgins in heaven' deal.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. That's a good part of it. They don't like anyone giving the lie to

'there are no atheists in a foxhole'.

IMO, you might be better off with an atheist next to you -- you'd know he's going to be looking out for you and himself, not ready to sacrifice himself for his god. People who are anxious to move on to the next life scare me.

[trotsky]

16. What a fucking crock.

Would Kauzlarich or anyone else have so brazenly guessed at the motivations of the family if they had been religious?

Of course not - bigotry against atheists is still OK with most Americans.

Personally, I realized that life being over when the body dies made the most sense of all. I don't remember existing before this body was born; I don't have any recollection of time passing or of myself "existing" when I am deeply asleep or when I've been under anesthesia. It actually makes me feel more comfortable knowing that this life is it, rather than wondering what the hell you're supposed to do for eternity.

[Arkansas Granny]

19. I know that people who believe in the afterlife will often say of

someone who has passed on that "they are in a better place", but I never knew anyone who was in a hurry to see their loved ones go there. This is just another example of how the current administration is pandering to the RW fundies.

[Lowell]

20. He was killed by friendly fire

what difference does it make if his family was athiest or baptist, the man is dead. It is over for him and it was an awful experience not only for Tillman, but also his family. Compounded by lies and cover ups.

[varkam]

31. That's something that I had wrestled with for a while.

Ever since I adopted a materialist standpoint, the thing that really used to get to me was the notion of no afterlife. It used to upset me that, once I died, that would be it. No heaven or hell. No more thoughts. No more emotions. Just nothingness. I will become extinct in the most literal interpretation of the word. I think it used to bug me because I didn't think any of this could really just end. Then I began to realize how absurd an eternity in either heaven or hell would actually be. Is there anything that I could not accomplish or experience in the first million years that I would need another million for? How about an infinity of millenia? I would go insane from the boredom alone. Once I understood that, things got a lot easier for me.

Now the only things that scare me in the slightest about dying are pain and the possibility that I will die before I have accomplished the things I want to accomplish. As I get older and accomplish more, I imagine I will fear it less and less. I'm not afraid of nothingness anymore. Besides, I imagine I came from nothingness before I was born and I don't remember anything too terribly awful about it.

But more to the point of this article, I find it shocking that someone in a command position, no less, should have such a surprising lack of empathy for the Tillman family. I would imagine that they are unhappy not because they think that their son is not in a better place, but because he has killed by friendly fire and then his death was covered up. I've read many gut-wrenching stories since the invasion began about mothers loosing their sons, and many of them were quoted as saying something to the effect of "They are in a better place now" - but they weren't exactly jumping for joy.

[BurtWorm]

33. It might make it easier for them to accept the loss of a child

to really believe they're in a better place. But I can't believe even someone who believes *that* would be able to accept their child's being dead because of friendly fire or because the people responsible for him fucked up. It clearly makes this asshole feel better to believe his screwing up only means his soldiers go to a "better place."

[delete_bush]

40. Eternity is a very long time. As you say, what does one do

after the first trillion years or so. When my uncle passed away they put a golf scene on the inside of the casket. I know it helps in the grieving process to imagine the departed springing back to life on some golf course in the sky, but since this is heaven, wouldn't every shot be a hole in one? Unless of course Jesus happens to be in your foursome, then maybe etiquette demands you let him win. And if you excel at everything you do, then what's the point? If you can't improve, and you know everything there is to know, why bother getting up in the morning?

This is the one that gets me. Some hillbilly dies, and the response is "the good Lord took him before his time, so he must have needed him for something special". The guy worked at the feed store, beat his wife, and Jesus needs him? For what?

[varkam]

41. For something special

:D

[SPKrazy]

37. It Is For Some

and this asshat needs to remember that it is hard (Kauzlarich)

especially those who have lost their child, adult child, but child no less.

And Tillman was a brave guy. Probably fragged by his own side.

If there is nothing after death, then we'll never know it anyhow.

I have no idea what "eternal life" means, I certainly doubt that it means that people go on and are who they are here in "spirit form"

but, it is hard for some to grasp the idea that this might be it.

It's a reality that everyone (no matter how faithful they are) grapples with at some point in time.

Maybe the battallion commander is just projecting his own doubts and fears onto the Tillmans?

[NMMNG]

38. What a load

"When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more — that is pretty hard to get your head around that.


Hardly. Atheists don't need fantasies of an afterworld to make them feel better about their impending death or the deaths of their loved ones. Overall they are perfectly adjusted to the fact that when they die, that is the end of it all. When I stopped believing the concept of simply ceasing to exist actually was more comforting than dying and having an "eternal afterlife". The nonsense in this story is just more bigotry against atheists by a person who openly admits he doesn't understand them.