I am so glad that God does not speak to me or influence me.

[Philosoraptor]

I'm just so glad that I don't have to live my life by an ancient book or books written thousands of years ago. I'm so glad that I don't believe in the end of the world.

I'm glad that this God does not tell me to hate people, or kill people, or steal from people. I'm glad that I don't have to weigh every decision in my life according to some Deity.

I wish that more people in the world could break the yolk of belief like I did, I felt so much better after clearing my mind of all superstition.

Even so, I respect the believers, I am tolerant of them, until they start killing and stealing and hating, etc.

When I look around the world, I see so much suffering coming from this God, and I am truly happy to be beyond this Deity's influence.

[crim son]

1. Nicely said.

Obeying "god's" (purpported) rules at this stage of civilization is a bit like following mom's rules when you've reached fifty years of age. Some of the damn rules simply don't apply any more. Maybe most of them.

[wake.up.america]

3. There is a God. The trouble is that man has distorted the

concept for his/her selfish purposes.

[crim son]

6. I believe that is wholly a matter of opinion.

In fact, I once agreed with you, and respect absolutely your personal beliefs.

[wake.up.america]

31. I respect your opinion. I am not big on organized religion..

[acmejack]

8. You hope there is a God.

You hope that Deity conforms to your wishes & beliefs. You desperately hope this Deity is what you have been taught he or she is supposed to be. But in the end, your statement of fact is only a wish.

[Exiled in America]

46. No, that's grossly oversimplistic. See my post below #32

It's not a "wish." It's a language.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. What I find ironic

is that it is atheists and agnostics who often behave in a manner that appears to be more consistant with what a benevolent and compassionate God would want. Sadly, I think many religious people don't follow the teachings but rather use their religion as an excuse to do whatever they want.

[baldguy]

4. God does not tell people to hate, kill or steal. That's not God talking.

That's the Other Guy.

In this respect, neocons and "Islamic terrorists" are identical.

[Philosoraptor]

5. I don't believe in the "other guy" either.

I am also glad that the devil has no influence over me either.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Philosoraptor]

13. I did not blame god or the devil for the evil in the world.

I blame humans. God or his adversary have no influence on me, despite your beliefs otherwise.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Philosoraptor]

18. Ah, an insult, I must have offended you,

without even trying.

[crim son]

10. How does one determine what is, and what is not god talking?

Much of Christianity in the U.S. today appears to be based on the Old Testament, which is full of war, adultery, slavery, incest etc. We pick and choose. If we look at the New Testament there is relatively little to support, for example, the anti-homosexuality position, or the espousal of war in the name of god. Any way you look at it, the Good Book is ambiguous about almost every concept we call a "value". In my view, one decides what is god's word by hand-picking from the Bible (or other source) what appeals. Me, I like to hear that I should love my neighbor, do unto others as I'd have them do unto me, and the notion that I ought to depart from people with whom I inevitably conflict, rather than kill them. But I could just as easily focus on the ill treatment of wives, the forsaking of daughters in the name of "virtue" or the pleasure of the slaughter of my enemies. My values are predetermined, and I choose from the Book that which supports them, calling those passages "god's word".

[jus_the_facts]

7. the ONLY thing I take literally is..treat others as you want to be treated

....why's it so goddamned HARD to do that?! It didn't take *church* to teach me that either...it's common sense. When I was just a wee lass my grandmother would always quiz us on church stuff...and she'd ask 'what's the golden rule' and I'd always say...'do unto others as they do unto you' and she'd cringe and tell me that's not right...and I'd say well it's all I SEE most of the time...couldn't have been more than 5 or 6 years old when I figured that one out. :crazy:

[acmejack]

9. !

[Ohio Joe]

12. Actualy, I wish God would talk to me

I want answers dammit!

[warrior1]

14. I don't think most people have ever read the bible

much less understand it. They do rely on other people to explain it for them.

The bible truly is a awful writing, cruel and very violent. Racist, sexist and I like this poster am glad I removed the yoke.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible2.htm

The Dark Bible

A Short History of the Bible

The stories of the Bible evolved slowly over centuries before the existence of orthodox religions. Many belief cults spread stories and myths probably handed down by oral tradition from generation to generation before people wrote them down. Many of the stories originally came from Egyptian and Sumerian cults. All of these early religions practiced polytheism, including the early Hebrews. Some of the oldest records of the stories that later entered the Old Testament came from thousands of small cylinder seals depicting creation stories, excavated from the Mesopotamia period. These early artifacts and artworks (dated as early as 2500 B.C.E.) established the basis for the Garden of Eden stories a least a thousand years before it impacted Hebrew mythology.

snip

[jonnyblitz]

15. fortunately I never had the affliction of belief so I never had

to break free. to be a secular person and watch all these loons blowing each other up is truly frustrating, to destroy the world over make believe bullshit. this is harsh and probably will offend many but I don't care anymore. I am sick of these assholes (the religious warmongers. )religion divides people and turns them into bigoted assholes. I have had it.

"God said this land belongs to me so get the hell off." what fucking horsehsit. :puke:

great post, btw. I recommend it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

27. !

:applause:

[theHandpuppet]

17. Here's an alternative for the rest of us...

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060721/NEWS01/607210412

Camp: "It's Beyond Belief"
There is no God, but there is horse riding; Summer camp is for atheists, agnostics
BY MICHAEL D. CLARK | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

ST. CLAIR TWP. - It's summer camp time in America, but few camps are quite like this one.

This week, 31 atheist and agnostic youths from Ohio, Kentucky, New York and other states have gathered in Butler County for Camp Quest, one of a handful of summer camps nationwide where children are taught there is no God.

Armed with its motto "It's Beyond Belief!" Camp Quest is an alternative to religious-oriented summer camps.

Children and teens learn about the canons of rational thought, critical thinking and scientific inquiry. They're also taught to stand up for their secular beliefs while living in a world of religious believers who might question their values.

Besides the usual camp activities such as canoeing and horseback riding, campers tackle serious discussions of atheistic, agnostic and deist philosophies. They learn about famous figures - such as Charles Darwin and Carl Sagan - who shared a disbelief in a supreme being who oversees humanity....

MORE

[Zebedeo]

39. Darwin

Darwin was a Christian who lost his faith when his daughter died. He was never an atheist.

Darwin

[delete_bush]

40. The statement was that he and Sagan shared a

disbelief in a supreme being. From his own autobiography:

"During these two years (October 1836 to January 1839) I was led to think much about religion... But I had gradually come, by this time, to see that the Old Testament from its manifestly false history of the world, with the Tower of Babel, the rainbow as a sign, etc., and from its attributing to God the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos, or the beliefs of any barbarian ." He continues on the subject: "Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress".

[Zebedeo]

42. He proclaimed disbelief, but also that he was "never an atheist."

:shrug:

Darwin

In his later life, Darwin was frequently asked about his religious views. He went as far as saying that he did "not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation", but was always insistent that he was agnostic and had "never been an atheist".

Go figure. :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

43. Disbelief = atheism, Zeb, and Darwin was as much an atheist as I am.

Left out all the info that didn't support your inference, eh, Zeb?

Go figure. :eyes:

For those who wish to read Darwin's words in context:

"What my own views may be is a question of no consequence to any one but myself. But, as you ask, I may state that my judgment often fluctuates...In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind."

Just like other agnostic atheists, he didn't deny the existence of God.

"By further reflecting that the clearest evidence would be requisite to make any sane man believe in the miracles by which Christianity is supported,—and that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracles become,—that the men at that time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible by us,—that the Gospels cannot be proved to have been written simultaneously with the events,—that they differ in many important details, far too important, as it seemed to me, to be admitted as the usual inaccuracies of eye-witnesses;-by such reflections as these, which I give not as having the least novelty or value, but as they influenced me, I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation. The fact that many false religions have spread over large portions of the earth like wild-fire had some weight with me.

"But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans, and manuscripts being discovered at Pompeii or elsewhere, which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress."

"Formerly I was led by feelings such as those just referred to (although I do not think that the religious sentiment was ever strongly developed in me), to the firm conviction of the existence of God, and of the immortality of the soul. In my Journal I wrote that whilst standing in the midst of the grandeur of a Brazilian forest, "it is not possible to give an adequate idea of the higher feelings of wonder, admiration, and devotion, which fill and elevate the mind." I well remember my conviction that there is more in man than the mere breath of his body. But now the grandest scenes would not cause any such convictions and feelings to rise in my mind. It may be truly said that I am like a man who has become colour-blind, and the universal belief by men of the existence of redness makes my present loss of perception of not the least value as evidence. This argument would be a valid one if all men of all races had the same inward conviction of the existence of one God; but we know that this is very far from being the case. Therefore I cannot see that such inward convictions and feelings are of any weight as evidence of what really exists. The state of mind which grand scenes formerly excited in me, and which was intimately connected with a belief in God, did not essentially differ from that which is often called the sense of sublimity; and however difficult it may be to explain the genesis of this sense, it can hardly be advanced as an argument for the existence of God, any more than the powerful though vague and similar feelings excited by music."

And one of my personal favorites:

"Nor must we overlook the probability of the constant inculcation in a belief in God on the minds of children producing so strong and perhaps as inherited effect on their brains not yet fully developed, that it would be as difficult for them to throw off their belief in God, as for a monkey to throw off its instinctive fear and hatred of a snake."

See, Darwin wasn't so pc when it came to personal letters, Zeb.

His disbelief is quite obvious.

He would have been stupid to willingly commit professional suicide by publishing his opinions on religion.


Good thing this forum is frequented by people who don't rely on Wikipedia for their education.

[Zebedeo]

47. Agnostic, not atheist

I said he "was always insistent that he was agnostic and had 'never been an atheist'." You "refute" my post by quoting Darwin's own statement that:

"In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind."

I'm not sure how you think that refutes my post. He said he was an agnostic, not an atheist. That's what I said he said. Where is the dispute?

[beam me up scottie]

49. The "dispute" is the definition of atheist=denying the existence of God.

That definition refers to strong atheism.

Agnostic or "weak" atheists do not deny the existence of God.

a·the·ist (ā'thē-ĭst)
n.

One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

"disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate"

Darwin was an agnostic atheist.

The label "agnostic" has often been used by atheists who didn't want to be crucified for their atheism, the word was created specifically for that reason, actually.

Do we really need to do the whole strong/weak atheist definition thing again?

Your insistence on using a selective definition in order to support your belief that Darwin wasn't an atheist but a christian who simply "lost his faith when his daughter died" is intentionally obtuse, Zeb.


I'm shocked.

[Zebedeo]

52. I have no dog in this hunt

It doesn't matter to me whether the dude was atheist or agnostic. You win.

No, I don't want to do the strong/weak atheist thing again.

[SPKrazy]

54. Why Do They Need To Be Taught "There Is No God"?

I mean that is pretty self explanatory, what else is there to teach once you've made that statement?

When you gather a group of kids together to teach them there is no God, are you not now in fact teaching a "belief", since you are no longer dealing with individual atheists coming to the conclusion that they do not believe in God, you now are teaching them to believe there is no God, right?

seems that way to me.

[beam me up scottie]

56. That's not true, they're not being taught "there is no God".

The article is pretty informative, actually, except for that statement.

Camp mission

The Camp Quest mission statement says its purpose is to "provide children of irreligious parents a residential summer camp dedicated to improving the human condition through rational inquiry, critical and creative thinking, scientific method, self-respect, ethics, competency, democracy, free speech, and the separation of religion and government guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States."

The misconception that the children are taught that there is no God may have come from this patriotic citizen:

Phil Burress, president of Sharonville-based Citizens for Community Values, said, "It’s amazing that they are teaching kids not to believe in God. I feel sorry for them."

He said the small number of participants nationwide reveals the camp’s limited appeal.

"Their numbers are not growing. And they are pushing the myth of separation of church and state in America," he said. "But if you look at the Founding Fathers, they incorporated God into our nation’s founding documents."

And, unlike the Boy Scouts who ban atheists, "Christians, or members of any other religion, are not excluded" from Camp Quest.

Personally, I think kids are better off learning the lessons being taught at Camp Quest than the "community values" being taught by christian bigots like our buddy Phil.

YMMV, of course.

[Bill McBlueState]

60. ah, there's that "God in the founding documents" again.

It's clear to me that if Burress has ever read the Constitution, it was a long time ago. If the founders had wanted a theocracy, they could have done better than vague references to a "Creator" and "Nature's God" in the Declaration of Independence.

Why do these people hate freedom? :eyes:

[DoYouEverWonder]

19. Obviously you are not a follower of the god of Abraham

that guy was a real devil.

[tocqueville]

20. God is speaking through you right now

but his/her voice is very tenuous

[Philosoraptor]

21. Ya think?

Wow, suddenly I feel empowered.

[Lowell]

22. Which one do you listen too?

I do whatever the little voices in my head tell me to. There are just so damn many I can't tell the apart.

[Philosoraptor]

23. You hear them too?

I thought I was the only one, whew.

[SammyWinstonJack]

24. You and me both! nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Well, if you sent more money to the preachers, he would speak to you.

Of course, the message would be that *HE* needs more money.

[lonestarnot]

26. God doesn't speak to anybody. That is why he sent the Holy Spirit.

[zippy890]

29. I respect your right to believe in a holy spirit

that talks to people if you respect my right not to believe in that.

AND with this mutual respect -we can live together in the same country, and agree to believe in different things.- deal?

one other thing - lets keep religion out of the public square. Totally.

Thanks - and hope to see you around!

:hi:

[lonestarnot]

30. Excellent idea!

:hi:

[alpizzy]

28. I second that emotion....

or maybe I'm the the 15th in line ... quite a few of you in front
of me. Woo-Hoo ... the more the merrier.

[Exiled in America]

32. It's all about the kind of god (if any) one believes in

Nothing in your post eliminates room for a belief in the existence of some thing worthy of the label "god." The real question is whether or not incorporating a god believe into your life is beneficial to the quality of your life. In your case, it may not be, in which case if your questions are being answered and the language you have by which to express the particulars of your existences makes sense to you, then you're doing fine my friend! Go forth and be happy!

For some people though, religion is less about concrete absolutes and dogma and more about developing an expressive language by which to articulate living experiences, often the more abstract or even emotion based experiences and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Many people observe that they "feel" certain things or have experiences in their lives that are not easily quantified, and based on many factors such as their culture, tradition and experience, personality and preference, choose to describe such experiences in the world through a spiritual lens. That's really ok.

I can't tell you the number of times I listen to a very rational, strongly secular individual describe something about the world and realize that I would say the exact same thing he or she is saying, only using different language. That happens a lot among the non-fundamentalists spiritual folks that exist in the world. Most of the time, we agree with most everything a non-religious person would say about the world, we just use different words to say it. A lot of the times, we tend to be a little more abstract, impressionistic or even emotional in our thinking - and that is not a negative thing. That is exactly the kind of imaginative, right-brained thinking that fuels artists, musicians, poets and a great deal of the aesthetic beauty human beings are capable of producing on this earth.

Now having said that, thank GOD (or anything else you'd like to thank) for the left-brainers! Thank god for scientists, and pragmatic and analytical men of deep reason. This word would be without hope if such people did not exist. But it would also be without beauty if more right-brained artists and expressive folk weren't constantly creating metaphor, symbolism and imagery to capture what living on earth feels like - with all the joys, pains, hopes and fears contained therein.

A lot of folks who connect to faith are easily comparable to such creative artists described above. They tend to look at their experiences in the world through an emotive and imaginative lens. They're not misled about the concrete, scientific facts and rules of logic about the world. But they are in love with the wonder and mystery of it all and that feeling (which anyone can have) just happens to get expressed through metaphor, symbolism, ritual and imagery that has some kind of spiritual import.

That is what leads me to claim that for many people, religion is really a language. It is one representative way of expressing the more abstract and experiential elements of living on earth. It is often not literal, but still powerful. That's a concept not everyone accepts. I don't believe something has to be literally true in order to convey important and truthful ideas. I can think of a handful of stories by some amazing authors that have literally shaped the course of my life and giving me tremendous insight into living in a healthy and joy-filled way. They were all writing stories of fiction - non-literal vehicles for delivering some profound insights in to the nature of life. I believe religious traditions, and new personal spiritual explorations can do precisely the same thing in the lives of some people. I said some, not all. :)

So in the end it all comes down to this: what language do you speak? More to the point, what language is most native to you? I feel like I am capable of phrasing things in very concrete, left-brained, scientific, rationally pragmatic ways. But I have to think harder to do that - its like a second-language. It's not what's most natural for me. In your case, it sounds to me like that is most natural to you, and I'm really glad for that! I can't agree with the folks who long for a day when all religious expression is eliminated from human existence. I strongly believe it takes both kinds of people - the spiritually prone and the secularly inclined - to make the world go 'round.

Our true enemy is fundamentalism and fanaticism in all its forms. Religious fundamentalism is only one form of dangerous and terribly destructive fanaticism. Capitalism in America has become an institution totally out of control populated by fanatics responsible for a tremendous amount of the worlds suffering and injustice. Does that mean the entire system is a mistake? No, but it does mean there is extremism within that is dangerous and devastating. We should resist extremism in all its forms including, but in no way limited to, religious extremism. We dare not ignore other extremism simply because religious extremism is such a visible target. Capitalist extremism is probably the single thing that has done the most violence, terror, destruction and oppression in the 20th century. Religion can't even touch the scale of impact that Capitalist extremism has had on the world. But it isn't yet popularly acceptable to comment on this very much.

Cheers!
Sel

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. If you are happy then

I am happy for you.

Personally, I have an ongoing conversation with the Holy Spirit. It doesn't really tell me to do things...we have lengthy conferences, though. Usually I follow the suggestions. And seems like when I don't, I mess up. So I find it a valuable tool.

I think that your interpretation of "God" would be too confining for me, as well.

[Zhade]

34. If gods were shown to exist (so far, nope), I wouldn't obey the OT one.

What an ASSHOLE the bible paints that guy as being!

[Exiled in America]

35. Actually, the bible - if taken literally - can't seem to make up its mind

about God.

The god who "is love" and whose "mercy endures forever" seems to be irreconcilable with the God who wants some children slaughtered and some women enslaved and raped by jewish men.

Jesus, "God's son" seems to disagree with daddy as well.

Of course, this all assumes you are a biblical literalist, in which case such statements/arguments work. But biblical literalism is such an ignorant point of view - ranking right up there with the flat earth society - that its a really cheap and easy target for anyone with a brain cell. I'm not sure we even have any biblical literalists on the board do it? So sometimes making a bunch of arguments against biblical literalism seems to be rather pointless really.

Discussing the bible with a reflective christian aware of is origins and understanding of its narrative - well, that's a different story. :)


EDIT - that "mercy endures forever" bit is from the OT.

[Zhade]

48. If one is a biblical literalist, they're an idiot.

I really mean that, and there's an easy answer why: rabbits don't have cloven hooves or chew cud.

That's ONE of many examples of how literally wrong the bible is. To take it as inerrant and literally true is missing the boat to reality.

[beam me up scottie]

50. Oh puh-leeze.

Next thing you know, you'll be telling us the world isn't 6000 years old and that Jesus wasn't riding a dinosaur in this picture:



You're just closed minded and afraid of The Truth.

[Zhade]

51. HAHAHAHAHA! OH. THEIR. GOD!

The mindset behind that picture is "literally" bonkers!

:rofl:

[NMMNG]

57. Have you been over at that site again?

You'll rot your brain you know.

[beam me up scottie]

58. But they're so FUNNY!

The term "creation scientists" alone is priceless!

You just can't make stuff like that up!

And these days, I'll take my laughs wherever I can find them.

I'm trying like hell to stay out of the main forums.

Once again, Buffy, the Religion forum is the safest/sanest place to be.

[NMMNG]

59. Once again that statement scares me

Once again, Buffy, the Religion forum is the safest/sanest place to be.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

53. I've got to agree with you

but I think I'd have to go with obeying him. He was a mean, scary dude.

But then again he was also very arbitrary, so maybe it wouldn't even matter if you obeyed him or not.

[Mr_Spock]

36. I agree

I wish more were like us - but fear is hard to defeat.

[greiner3]

37. For a while there I seem to remember talking to someone too;

But then I decided to start taking my anti-psycotics daily and those damn voices stopped. Maybe the cure is put enough Risperdal in the water supply, just like flouride, and our troubles will go away!

[MissWaverly]

38. sorry, the evil around here is from man-unkind

most animals kill for their immediate needs not us, and animals are only interested in their prey, leave the environment alone and often leave crumbs for other species. There is much
in the world that makes it a paradise, if we would only be better people.

[NMMNG]

41. Really,

The only people who do dangerous/criminal/hateful things "under orders from God" are:

A. People who are bigoted, cruel, vicious and nasty to begin with and would do such things without religion. However they justify their behaviors under the guise of religion to make them seem noble.

OR

B. People with genuine mental illnesses (often schizophrenia) who have religious obsessions and/or command hallucinations that they believe are from God. They then can act on these hallucinations, or have psychotic breaks and commit acts of varying harmfulness to others or themselves.



Just my opinion, of course.

[tomreedtoon]

44. I like to think that God respects the intelligence He gave us.

I think He doesn't have to talk to us directly because His principles have been laid down many times and many ways. He expects us to use our brains and determine how to apply those principles in our current circumstances.

(Mind you, this is from a "collapsed Catholic" who only went to church in the last decade on annual trips to see his mother, who was too far gone mentally to realize what the Church had done.)

[InaneAnanity]

55. Dude

You aren't damned to hell if you fail to capitalize a pronoun. Ease up on the shift key.

[GeorgeGist]

45. I think your making a common mistake..

equating religious beliefs with God. Furthermore, just because you're not aware of something doesn't mean that your not influenced by it. Take your liver for example. Unless it's diseased/damaged you're not aware of it but it sure does inlfluence how you feel.