What is the purpose of this forum?

[Jo March]

Is this forum to provide a place for theists/believers of all stripes to discuss religion and theology without having to constantly defend our beliefs? I am wondering.

I went to the group for Atheists and Agnostics and the threads there are relatively free of posts from believers who are trying to 1) save anyone's soul or 2) tell anyone that he/she is going to hell. There aren't that many disruptive posts in that group.

I come to this forum and it is filled with posts that are ridiculing believers, ridiculing our God(s) and our Holy books. I am just not sure what the purpose of this forum is.

And don't tell me that I should be able to defend my beliefs. I can. I should not have to feel like it is a war between believers and nonbelievers.
I would like to discuss religious topics without having to stop every fifth post and defend myself from someone who is calling me an idiot, deluded or mentally ill because I believe.

Don't get me wrong. I like being challenged and also hearing about the beliefs of others. What I'm objecting to are the threads that deride the beliefs of Christians, Jews, Muslems, etc.

So, if you think that God is the equivalent of Santa Claus, why are you posting here? If you think that all believers are mentally ill or are deluded beyond belief, then why come here and post that when you know that this is a religious forum where religious topics are discussed and debated? If you think that we are all stupid, then why post in this forum? It makes no sense unless you are trying to stir up trouble or just aggravate for the sake of aggravation.

Here is the A/A group for those who want to check it out: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=263

[Kajsa]

1. Thank you, arnheim.

It's really easy to ridicule and scorn people of faith.
This seems especially easy when there is a forum for them.
( shooting fish in a barrel comes to mind).

What requires more is to be tolerant of those of us who do believe.

We have just as much a right to our beliefs as those who are agnostic
or atheists.

Mutual respect and tolerance for one another is the key.

[beam me up scottie]

3. No, on Du it is NOT "easy to ridicule and scorn people of faith"

Posts that ridicule believers are deleted and members can be banned for not obeying the rules.

Are you trying to say that the mods ignore such behaviour?

[Kajsa]

7. Bullshit!

n/t

[beam me up scottie]

10. Then prove it.

Show me the posts that violate the rules.

[Kajsa]

17. Take your pick.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x59386

(Of course you probably won't find any you consider violating the rules)

[beam me up scottie]

22. It's not a question of what I consider violations, it's what DU considers

violations.

As you can see, many posts were deleted from that thread, so you'll need to point out the ones you think violate the rules on civility.

[Jo March]

29. There's rude and then there's breaking the rules

Rude I can handle. The other - well, it's not up to me to do anything more than Alert and let the mods handle it.

Must not respond to flamebait... Must not respond to flamebait...

If I type that 100 times, do you think I'll remember it when the time comes?? ;)

[beam me up scottie]

31. And I'm guilty of it as well.

The only time I have used comments I know to be offensive to believers is when I've been provoked.

No, it's not right and I apologize when it happens.

[Jo March]

8. I think that the mods do a great job BUT

I think that sometimes we get so caught up in the argument and the heat of the "battle" that we don't do the smart thing: alert if a poster has broken the rules.

The mods can save us some heartache and words that we can't take back later.

[beam me up scottie]

13. So what are you saying?

That the mods aren't doing their jobs or that people aren't alerting on rule violations?

Or both?

[Jo March]

26. We aren't alerting on rule violations

We aren't doing our part at all. We get too caught up in the back-and-forth and the flamefests that we just add to the problem.

Edited to add: I am guilty of that as well.

There are too many posts for the mods to magically pinpoint the exact post that is offensive to someone.

I'm guilty of not alerting like I should. The mods have always been fair about removing offensive posts.

[beam me up scottie]

28. If there are too many posts to pinpoint, the delete the entire sub thread.

The mods have to babysit this forum 24 hours a day, I doubt that much gets past them.

[Jo March]

35. It does seem to be worse than others

And that is a shame.

[beam me up scottie]

38. But you see, that's WHY atheists have to walk on eggshells around here.

That is, we do if we want to discuss religion with believers without offending them.

It's like a #^%($*& minefield in here.

I have no idea something is offending you unless you tell me about it, and even if you do, I might not stop doing whatever it is, but I will try to explain WHY it's not meant to offend you.

[Jo March]

57. LOL, I have a religious friend who used to tell me

"It's nothing personal." I gave him this analogy: If you line up me and 99 other people and you shoot one of them, it's not personal. If you shoot me, then you're darn skippy that it's personal. Even if you didn't mean to, you have personally injured me.

We'd then debate intention and forgiveness. ;) Ah, good times, good times.

Part of the reason that I came to this forum was because I really miss theological discussions with him. I miss the intellectual stimulation about religion. I still miss it.

[beam me up scottie]

2. I already explained the difference between groups and forums.

Atheists have just as much right to post here as believers do.

If you see posts that are disrespectful of other DUers, hit alert.

If you don't want your beliefs questioned, here's the link to the christian group for those who want to check it out: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=291

And the seekers on unique paths group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=292

And the Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality Group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=262

And the Catholic and Orthodox Christian Group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=275

And the Jewish Group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=316

And the Muslim/Islam Group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=359

And the Native American Group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=312

And the Prayer Circle Group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=237

[Jo March]

12. And I appreciated your post (I posted this thread before reading it)

The Christian group sounds good but I do like the idea of discussing ideas with people of all faiths. I've always enjoyed speaking with people of different beliefs than mine. It's a challenge and always makes me think.

That's why I like the idea of a general forum where we all can discuss theology because we can get many differing views on things like the rapture and the end times and all of that.

BMUS, you are everywhere today! Working overtime, lol!

[beam me up scottie]

15. Most of us are trying to make this forum as civil as possible.

It sucks to see that we're still being accused of insulting believers.

Maybe I should just go back to not caring whether or not my posts upset or offend people.

[Jo March]

37. I did not accuse you of doing that

anymore than you have accused me of being a fundie who is bent on judging and condeming everyone who doesn't believe as I do.

You should post as you feel. Don't censor yourself.

[beam me up scottie]

42. But I do censor myself. All of us do one way or another, not just atheists

We do it because we don't want our posts deleted, we do it because we don't want to be banned from DU, and most importantly, we do it so that we don't hurt our friends and allies.

It bugs me that people still think we're assaulting believers in this forum.

Remember, most of the heated arguments you see in here involve people who LOVE that kind of debate, have actually admitted it, and come here just to do it.

[Jo March]

48. Which is why I shouldn't be here

I have never understood that type of thinking - starting an argument just for the jollies. Perhaps I am too sensitive and would be more suited somewhere else.

[salvorhardin]

54. In general I agree with you

I don't enjoy debate for debate's sake either. I love exploring ideas with other people, but I hate arguing about ideas. Usually when I post in here it's to try and correct a misconception or refine my own presentation of a concept. But for the the most part I value learning above argument. For some people though, argument is how they learn.

[Jo March]

58. I love the give and take of ideas

I love feeling that my opinion is respected and that I am bringing something valuable to the debate. If someone calls me "deluded", then that means that they don't respect me too much.

[salvorhardin]

63. Well, I try not to do that

And as I've said repeatedly (especially this weekend), religious belief is not mental illness (though extreme religiosity may be a symptom of an underlying mental illness), and to call it delusion is a misappropriation of a clinical psychological term. I might think your belief is inconsistent with reality, but I can certainly understand that a rational, informed, mentally healthy human being could come to such a belief.

I also want to understand religious belief and how it works in the human brain from a naturalistic perspective, and sometimes people take that as being offensive. That I have no control over, and I can't let myself feel much regret over how someone reacts to my own beliefs about religious belief.

[beam me up scottie]

56. You aren't too sensitive, don't say that.

It is because you're sensitive that you're a liberal.

Some of us just have tougher skins when it comes to certain subjects.

I'm that way about a lot of subjects that hit too close to home, trust me.

[Jo March]

59. Well, I'm sensitive about my religious beliefs

and that's not good in the Religion/Theology forum!!!

I'm not sensitive about other things. I can talk about other things without giving in to flamers, I swear!!

[beam me up scottie]

62. I know you can, I've seen you in action.

Your debating skills are excellent and you always keep your cool.

It's like I can actually SEE you stepping back, taking a breath, and thinking about the issue before you post a response.

Too cool!

[bananas]

4. Yup, it's as bad as the I/P and 9/11 forums

If you want to clean it up, you'll have to make heavy use of the alert button on all the trolls and flames and disruptors (because that's exactly what they are).

[beam me up scottie]

5. So the mods let the "trolls and flames and disruptors" abuse posters ?

Why don't you complain to skinner then, instead of griping about it in here?

[Kajsa]

6. That's a good idea!

Meanwhile, we were answering the question in the original post.

Remember, he did ask a question there.

[beam me up scottie]

11. That isn't a question, it's an invitation to bash atheists.

And it's working.

[Kajsa]

14. OMG!

And believers are chided for being " sensitive"!

[beam me up scottie]

18. Excellent observation. Believers are "chided".

Not insulted and abused as you claim.

[Kajsa]

24. That's your interpretation.

Laughing at one's beliefs or non-beliefs is insulting.

That was done, maybe not by you.

[beam me up scottie]

34. If you're offended by sarcasm and mockery, you're in the wrong place.

Take a look at the rest of DU.

How many sacred cows do you see?

Again, there is a difference between respecting believers and respecting religious beliefs.

We shouldn't HAVE to respect your religious beliefs.

Not unless you think we should have to respect Fred Phelps' beliefs about homosexuals.

[Kajsa]

39. So religious beliefs you don't like

are subject to mockery?

And you state they are NOT subject to ridicule and scorn?

Do tell.

[beam me up scottie]

45. Show me where I said that.

If you're looking for an atheist to accuse of bashing christians, you're barking up the wrong tree, sweetie.

[Kajsa]

52. Here you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=83392&mesg_id=83396

I'm not going around in circles much longer, either.

[beam me up scottie]

61. I said: "It is NOT easy to ridicule and scorn people of faith"

It is NOT "easy to ridicule and scorn people of faith"

Posts that ridicule believers are deleted and members can be banned for not obeying the rules

Show me where I said:

"So religious beliefs (I) don't like are subject to mockery?

[Kajsa]

66. again, for the last time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=83392&mesg_id=83434

[beam me up scottie]

68. Again I said: "We shouldn't HAVE to respect your religious beliefs"

We don't respect the religious beliefs of Fred Phelps, do we?

This is still a democracy, we shouldn't be forced to worship anyone else's gods.

But there can't be any open discussion about anything without the freedom to disrespect ideas, philosophies and religion.

I try not to mock religious beliefs but I make an exception for fundamentalists and zealots.

They are the enemy and their beliefs are a threat to me, and I don't feel so much as a twinge of conscience when I go after them.

I do, however, try never to mock the beliefs of liberals since theirs have no effect on me.

Gee, I wonder who said that?

[Jo March]

16. Are you talking about my post?

Do you consider my thread to be disruptive? If so, then please do alert. I'm not trying to be disruptive. I'm not. I'm speaking out of a genuine confusion and, I'll admit, more than a little bit of hurt feelings.

If I am disrupting, that was not my intention.

BMUS has taken time to answer my concerns calmly and rationally. There are remedies to what's bothering some of us in this forum: Alert and Ignore. We just have to use them. ;)

[Kajsa]

20. You weren't disruptive!

There are two sets of standards going down, here.

I know, I know, this will probably be block quoted and
argued to death.

[Jo March]

23. Aaarrrrggggghhhh! I don't want to be disruptive or cause a fight

There is no need for the back and forth that gets us all nowhere.

BMUS has answered my question and explained the purpose of the forum. I appreciate that.

Every DUer needs to Alert on disruptive behavior whenever it happens and from whoever it happens to originate. Period.

[beam me up scottie]

27. How do you think I feel?

I constantly call out people who bash believers in here, as do other atheists.

I have been ATTACKED for disagreeing with other atheists, for Christ's sake.

And this is what we get in return?

Broadbrush condemnations of my friends?

[Jo March]

44. I am not condemning your friends with the broad brush

I appreciate you, BMUS, and you KNOW that I have never had a problem with you or others who are, as you put it, the "good guys."

And I know about being attacked. You should read some of the PMs I get. They are quite nasty, too! ;)

[beam me up scottie]

50. Nobody should be allowed to attack you in a pm.

That's only happened to me a few times and each time I forwarded it to the mods.

That is nothing but intimidation and bullying, and personally, I think it should be a bannable offense.

I prefer to duke it out in the forums, myself.

Especially since occasionally, those fights lead to understanding where the other guy is coming from.

[Jo March]

21. NO! It's not an invitation to bash atheists!

No, no, no! That is not my intention at all! x(

I was just asking for some respect and an explanation as to why people come here, in this forum, if they don't believe and all they want to do is ridicule those who do believe.

There is no need to bash anyone! That was my point in the OP. We shouldn't be bashing each other, but listening to each other respectfully.

[beam me up scottie]

30. You might not have meant it to be, but that's how it's perceived.

Just look at the responses you received.

I'll be over here trying to pull all of the knives out of my back.

[Jo March]

33. Well, it wasn't meant as such

And I'm sorry if you feel that I've stabbed you in the back.

[beam me up scottie]

36. You didn't, I'm sorry if I implied that.

But the other posters did and will do so again.

I really try to babysit my threads in here because I KNOW how people love to use the opinions of others to one-up the other side.

It's not your fault, you don't post in here often enough to see it.

[Jo March]

41. I'm going to stay out of this forum

I seem to have just stirred a hornet's nest.

[beam me up scottie]

47. ARGH! No! Come back here!

We're communicating and that's why we're both here.

I forget how awful this place looks to people who don't come here often, just like the I/P forum and Gungeon look to me.

I have inadvertently started MANY flamewars, but I learned from each one.

I learn everything the hard way, it seems.

[Jo March]

51. Yeah, but I take things personally

My faith is me. I am my faith. It makes up my being and has shaped who I am and who I strive to be. Ridiculing my beliefs is ridiculing me. I need to be somewhere where I feel respected and know that there is a free exchange of ideas and not just insults and flamebait.

It has nothing to do with you, BMUS. I've always considered you an ally in the war against the inane. :)

[Kajsa]

55. Arnheim, that's how I feel.

That's why I'm exiting this forum , also.

[Jo March]

60. Kajsa, there are several DU groups that would meet our needs

and we can always Alert here and try to help be part of the solution, you know!

[Kajsa]

65. Thanks!

You are so right.

I've got to go for now.

[beam me up scottie]

64. I know and I understand.

But there can't be any open discussion about anything without the freedom to disrespect ideas, philosophies and religion.

I try not to mock religious beliefs but I make an exception for fundamentalists and zealots.

They are the enemy and their beliefs are a threat to me, and I don't feel so much as a twinge of conscience when I go after them.

I do, however, try never to mock the beliefs of liberals since theirs have no effect on me.

[Jo March]

19. I've never been in that forum

We should alert more, however, because it's the only thing that will get rid of trolls. Too many threads to not use it.

I should be used to it, lol, after being in the Election Reform forum. Some of the Bev threads there get nasty. alert is the only thing that works.

[salvorhardin]

9. To answer your first question

Is this forum to provide a place for theists/believers of all stripes to discuss religion and theology without having to constantly defend our beliefs? I am wondering.

No. It isn't. The R&T forum is a place where all people can discuss issues of religion and theology, sometimes contentiously, without polluting the rest of DU with religious flame wars.

As for the rest of your complaints, they are addressed in DU's rules requiring civil debate. BuffieTheFundieSlayer and myself both speak out often against atheists who compare religion to mental illness, but just to reframe, religion is not mental illness and to compare it to such is highly offensive as it only cheapens the plight of those truly affected with mental illness.

Comparisons of religious beliefs to beliefs in childish myths/beliefs is also offensive and understandably so if done in such a way as to imply that another poster is childish for believing. However, if it's used to probe the boundaries of acceptable belief in the supernatural, then that is another thing altogether. Generally R&T requires a thick skin, for both theist and atheist. Criticism of religion and criticism of belief in supernatural entities in general is not criticism of you.

For anything else, see BMUS' post.

[Jo March]

32. BMUS already explained it.

I understand what you are saying, salvorhardin and I appreciate your post.

I understand that you say, "Criticism of religion and criticism of belief in supernatural entities in general is not criticism of you." Well, like I've explained, my beliefs make up who I am. I hold my beliefs so dearly that the insults cut deep. It may be hard for some to understand that.

Again, thanks for your post.

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. Some answers:

Is this forum to provide a place for theists/believers of all stripes to discuss religion and theology without having to constantly defend our beliefs?

No, It's a place for DUers to discuss religion and theology.

I would like to discuss religious topics without having to stop every fifth post and defend myself from someone who is calling me an idiot, deluded or mentally ill because I believe.

I don't believe you do. If you can point to the posts that say this, that haven't been deleted, you may make your case better.

So, if you think that God is the equivalent of Santa Claus, why are you posting here?

Thinking the Christian God is the equivalent of a Christian saint doesn't seem that big a deal to me. Heretical, perhaps, but it seems a valid philosophical discussion point.

If you think that all believers are mentally ill or are deluded beyond belief, then why come here and post that when you know that this is a religious forum where religious topics are discussed and debated?

I'm not sure if any DUer takes such an extreme viewpoint as the one you paint. But just as people who advocate gun control, and those you favour unrestricted gun ownership, both post in the 'Guns' forum, so people with different opinions of religion post here. The DU rules specifically say discussions of religion belong here:

Discussion topics relating to religion that have little or no relation to politics or current events must be posted in the Religion/Theology forum. If you are easily offended by discussion relating to religion, you are strongly advised to avoid the Religion/Theology forum. Instead, consider participating in one of our many DU Groups for believers or non-believers.

That doesn't say that the posters in this forum should have any belief. The forum is for all DUers.

If you think that we are all stupid, then why post in this forum?

Again, such a broadbrush insult should be alerted on. However, thinking someone is wrong is not the same as thinking they are stupid.

[Jo March]

40. I've alerted on this thread

I do NOT want another flamefest that continues on into a fiery locking death.

I am sorry that this was taken as an "invitation to bash atheists." I asked honest questions and received the answers that I was looking for. The rest - well, I absolutely feel horrible about the tone of this thread.

For those DUers who know me, I try not to bash anyone. I've always tried to be as civil as I possibly could and respectful as I possibly could.

BMUS, I'm sorry that you feel that I was somehow targeting every atheist on DU. I wasn't doing that. I was merely targeting the ones who would try to stir up trouble.

I do not want to add to the anger and rancor in this forum. God knows there is enough here already.

I apologize profusely and hope this gets locked soon.

[xchrom]

49. well the thread is still here -- and if you hadn't alerted -- i was.

i see nothing wrong with your i/p and the questions.

[Jo March]

53. It is still here. Hmm.

Well, I did alert. I know I did. Am I losing it? :shrug:

[xchrom]

67. nope -- there is nothing wrong with your

questioning.

and until the thread is locked -- and the mods say why -- that remains my conclusion.

[Vidar]

43. Excellent post. Though I don't believe in any organized religion

myself I find the frequent attack on any kind of spirituality offensive.

[Jo March]

46. We shouldn't attack one another

It makes no sense and it makes those on the right extremely happy.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

69. I am locking this at the request of the

original poster. The OP feels that unfortunately this has become a flame-fest.

best,
wakemeupwhenitsover
DU Moderator