Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I Am The Nasty Atheist!!!

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU
 
ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 10:39 AM
Original message
I Am The Nasty Atheist!!!
In regard to the Auntie Pinko article dealing with the person beset on all sides by nasty atheists, I offer the following in response/addition/consolation:

OK. I am a former Catholic who turned towards atheism at a very early age. I simply couldn't reconcile the things I absolutely knew to be true with what my faith was asking me to believe. It's not that I had any trouble believing in God at that age, I just had a real problem with the fact that it was written in their own texts what he was, but the clergy just didn't seem to know much about him. You've all known that mouthy kid who asks all of the "uncomfortable" questions in Sunday School/CCD/whatever, right? Well, I wasn't him. I was the one who watched everyone else ask their little "inconvenient" questions and became completely disillusioned at the paucity of satisfying information within the answers. It's like these were people of extraordinary faith possessing no reason. With the collected theological underpinnings of Catholicism spanning the 2000 years since Christ walked the earth, you'd think that they'd be able to come up with something convincing that didn't hem, haw, and hedge.

This is where me and faith in God broke company. Here I was, an impressionable kid, trying desperately, for his own future survival in a world ruled obliquely upon the precepts of logic and immutable physical truths, being told by people, who had no interest and respect for reason, how the world works and what is expected of me by an apparently capricious deity. I knew, just from my own experiences, that faith and reason were not mutually exclusive in the human mind, but here were people who chose that intellectual end. If I was going to know spirituality of any sort, I was listening to the wrong people. How knowledgeable could they really be if they could simply eschew reason as a casual inconvenience of an inferior material world?

I had only one real "uncomfortable" question of my instructors. My question was simple: How can reason be anathema to faith if God respects it enough to create it, nurture it, and expose it in the very natural world he created? Even though this was, at the time, expressed in the language of a second-grader with a simple, guileless inquiry, the recipient of this query became red-faced, angry, and otherwise visibly agitated. You could also hear the crickets chirping. No answer. At that point I realized that if I was every going to survive in the spiritual world, I'd have to look elsewhere for my battle armor.

Unlike other people, who abandon Catholicism for something more "honest" that doesn't have fealty to a church that looks more like a corporation than a concept of spiritual enlightenment, like Protestantism in one form or another, I chose to simply abandon the concept of God. I mean, really, has the flavor of religion every really been the problem? Has the papacy ever really been the problem? If anything, the pageantry and institution of Catholicism is its draw. It has traditions, requirements, and a heritage that spans the globe. If answers to my questions about here and the hereafter existed and could satisfy my curiosity, it could. Because you are born into it, the people within it seem to start from a position of imperfection and strive to be more like its ideals. 'Adopted' religions tend to be chosen on the basis of what already matches one's character, at least from what I've seen. People don't want to change or adhere to uncomfortable or difficult stricture.

Catholicism says you're a sinner? Then New Christian Religion #25 says you're not! You're home!

A little cynical, I know. But then no one becomes an atheist without being a little cynical. Take our dear President... please! I joke, but, I don't believe for a minute that he's any different now that he's born-again. He was an impressively odious and selfish little shit before his 'epiphany', as he apparently is now. Only now he seems to think God thinks that being an odious and selfish little shit is OK, just as long you do it his name instead of your own. Has his born-again-ness improved his character in non-trivial Christ-like ways? No, but it's given him a divine mandate to jam his shitty character down our collective throats. Anyone know the Heimlich?

I feel the need to provide this backing information, because the Auntie Pinko article this week had someone having trouble with the nasty atheist: the one who insults Christianity and its adherents, and thinks that everyone of faith is a deluded whackjob. I know these ostensibly rare guys and gals, and quite honestly I get offended by them, too. Simple reason: my mom was a very intelligent and reasoned person who was faithful to Catholicism until the day of her death. Their comments seem to indicate that they would consider my mother a deluded idiot. And NO ONE talks about my mom that way, y'hear?

I understand the pain of this person, I really do. It must feel terrible, even lowering, to have to justify your faith to someone who expresses nothing but contempt or disregard for it. I know, because I've had to do it more times in my life than any faithful Christian has ever dreamed it would ever be possible and necessary to do so.

But let's be completely reasonable, here. For every nasty atheist prick (only a small percentage of us are 'nasty' and we are already a miniscule percentage of people in this country and the world), there are at least 100-200 nasty little born-again pricks who just can't seem to get off our backs. While not all of them have the brass to bug us, and certainly those that have the brass do not bug us constantly, they invade our space with much greater frequency than the nasty atheists invade theirs. You know what we do? We suck it up. After we tire of sucking it up, we retort. We've been at it so long, our retorts are getting clever and biting, often vicious (possibly viscous). Auntie Pinko is right, it just builds. It is unreasonable to believe that after years of the occasional attempts at saving, the out-of-nowhere impromptu harangues and disgust by so-called Xtians in our dismal lack of belief in their God, and the simple awful contempt shown us because we don't have the ability to set aside crucial questions regarding our faith (any more than they do) and just give in to ritual and morbid preoccupation with death, that some of us don't go to the 'dark side' and tear into people we perceive as our antagonists.

We've got people around the world (and here, too!) who think that atheism isn't faith? Well, because I have spent my life thinking about my beliefs (my faith was not a given), and I would say that belief is as strong and purposeful in my life as it is in any 'person of faith', and that, to me, IS faith. I've had to defend this position often so. Quite honestly, I'm tired of feeling obligated to do so. A person of a liberal mind should be able to accept that truth, right, without having to have it proven to them?

So while I have much empathy for this person of faith that AP has saw fit to counsel, I also step back and say, "while I don't feel that you deserve such contempt, now at least you know what it feels like to have your most core and, dare I say, sacred beliefs mocked, questioned, and dismissed as idiotic or pathetic". A lesson may have been learned here, inadvertently. While this person may not do it him/herself, this person certainly knows people who do mock and chastise people for their beliefs, and just because those beliefs are ones he/she shares, this person says little in admonition. Perhaps now, this person can put it in perspective and develop a little understanding for the person who mocks them, where it comes from, and express compassion for them, rather than offense at their careless remarks.

After all, isn't THAT what Jesus would do?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. I enjoyed your rant.
When I was a kid listening to Madelyn Murray O'Hare on the radio, I found myself agreeing with all her points but wondering why she had to be SO NASTY when expressing them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jedicord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. And I don't tell people they're going to hell because they have
Edited on Fri Jul-28-06 11:15 AM by jedicord
different beliefs than me. I'm a mystical Deist (figure that one out), and am comfortable enough with my beliefs that I don't try to force them on others.

edited to use the friggin' correct word.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Hmmm Go to Null?
:evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Right On.
One of my best new friends in town is a minister. Why? because he's UNITED CHURCH. He doesn't RAM his religion down my throat or scare my 10 year old by telling her she's going to Hell.

I don't care WHAT some person wants to believe as a religion, AS LONG AS THEY DON'T BUG ME WITH IT. Or try to get it enacted into law.

NOW, that said...

I think that prostelyzing fundies CAN'T leave us alone. They CAN'T let us have our "right to choose" or decline to hear their prayers in our government institutions.

Why?

To let us alone VALIDATES our opinions in their eyes. We MUST be WRONG for them to be RIGHT. And what causes this fanaticism?

FEAR.

If they're WRONG, then at best, they're wasting their time, and at worst, the end is the end with no eternal life. VERY scary.

So if WE can NOT believe and it's ok, then where is the universal need to believe like THEY DO?

Sort of like a club where everyone everywhere has to belong, or the club doesn't work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
44. You mean the kind of christian that I sadly know well enough so that their
bullying and nastiness made me realize that if their god exists he must be as evil and nasty as they are. they are also the kind that think that if you don't lick their gods jackboots in the way they prescribe then you are a child of the devil. and they call you that right to your face. are those the kind of christians you are talking about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Count me in
While the last thing I want is to start a flamefest (really! I usually stay far away from these threads), I must admit that I believe most believers to be deluded. In my opinion, the belief in a supernatural being is delusional. I try to keep that to myself most of the time, preferring to live and let live, but if you poke me I will poke you right back.

Good post...k + r

And welcome to DU, ElboRuum! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Not a poke...
... the delusional part of religion is what bothers me.

The believers' delusions are fine with me... we all have delusions.... but many of their delusions are built into what governs my life.

Even moderate theists want their delusions woven into governance. If I am delusional and think that the moon is made of green cheese, I'm not able to ram a bill thru Congress to send a cargo rocket to the moon to get me some of that stuff. If I'm delusional and think some deity has zapped an invisible spirit into a fertilized human egg, I can get a lot of action from Congress.

Just because it's a mass delusion doesn't make it any less a delusion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. If they want to be deluded, that's OK with me
It's when they get in my face that I have a problem, or should I say, I have NO problem telling them how deluded I believe them to be.

And yes, that extends to governance. So we are in agreement. Sadly, I don't expect much, however. Mostly, I just want to be left alone with my world views.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. Nasty Athiest v. the Indignant Christian
In my case, it's pretty much even when it comes to the ratio of the Nasty Athiests v. the Indignant Christians I encounter. I tend to ignore them both as neither side seems to have a monopoly (or even a higher count) on rudeness, intractibility or incivility.

Good luck carrying this heavy cross of yours.... (joke)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. LOL!! Here a good t for ya!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
6. k&r
:)


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurgherHoldtheLies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. Well written...Kicked and Recommended. Welcome to DU!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. thanks for writing this
Edited on Fri Jul-28-06 12:39 PM by zippy890
and well written it is!

:thumbsup:

I'm tired and angry about having to be defensive about my atheism because ignorant people think that means I don't believe in anything and am somehow a threat to them or whatever the problem is.

Like you, I have enourmous faith in the basic goodness of the human spirit, and that that goodness will prevail over the bad/evil things that people are capable of.

It is quite possible and I will say preferable, to live one's life according to moral values and ethical standards without believing in an omniscient god.

thank you

edited spelling

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. k&r
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. A lot of people take issue
with the notion of Atheism as a "religion". I feel that my Atheism is very personal. To some people it's as intense as a religion, to others it's more of a natural result of their personal logic, and rather apathetic at that. The one thing I would never call Atheism is a "faith".

Faith implies believing in the existence of something with no evidence other than what's in your "heart". Atheism is the complete antithesis of faith, because it stems from an utter lack of proof. I cannot force my mind to accept something as fact when not a single iota of scientific evidence exists to justify it. Therefore Atheism is not my faith--it is my conclusion.

If God is real, he can shoulder the blame for people like me. He made us this way--gave us this passion for logic and reason, and this need for confirmation and evidence. If he's not real--then we all get to be stars together someday.

I do believe in physics. Energy is never destroyed, only transformed. I've been rather intrigued with the quantum physics notion of the Many Worlds Interpretation as of late.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Well, let me give you something to think about...
and I'm sure you've probably heard it before.

You said that you cannot force your mind to accept something as fact when not a single iota of scientific exists to justify it. Science is neither capable of proving that God exists, nor is it capable of proving that God does not exist. Yet atheism is the belief that God does not exist. An unproven belief. God (or lack thereof) denies proof.

Once you admit that you can't prove that God does not exist, but you believe that this is the truth, you must then call it what that is: faith.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Based on that logic, everything is "faith"
Trying to "prove" a negative is a logical fallacy. Unless you can search all corners of existence simultaneously, you cannot prove that something *doesn't* exist. However, proving that something *does* exist is easy--you have only to find a single instance of it, and that settles the matter.

There is no way that a mortal human being could ever positively prove that a deity does NOT exist, because we cannot search the entire universe instantly. With the declaration, comes the burden of proof. If you declare that God exists, then the burden of proof belongs to you. I can only speak for myself--however, I am not declaring that God does NOT exist. I am simply stating that no researchable evidence has ever been brought forth in the entire history of mankind to prove that he *does*.

Basically, I am saying that unless someone provides me evidence that pink flying jellyfish live in the center of our galaxy, I'm not going to believe it. Trying to say that I have to prove that they *don't* is fallacious and irrational.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Actually...
What you linked is an example of logical fallacy, true... but... Proof of God is precisely that logical fallacy: "This exists because no proof exists to the contrary." Oddly, Proof of Not God is also precisely that logical fallacy: "This does not exist because no proof exists to the contrary."


Faith does, by its very definition, defy reason. Thus, faith (whether asserting a god OR asserting lack thereof) is intentionally fallacious where logic is concerned! Cool, huh? Since nothing can prove the tenets of faith, all attempts to reason faith is, by definition, fallacious.

However, that faith is logically fallacious is precisely immaterial to the what those tenets are. Faith exists where unprovable/unproven or irrational beliefs exist in the context of a high degree of certitude of their truth.

Thus atheism is faith because it has all of these articles of faith, just different tenets than those that do believe in a God, equally unproven, unprovable, and thusly, irrational.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. "This does not exist because no proof exists to the contrary."
Most atheists DON'T say that. Strong atheists do, however.

Since atheists by and large DO NOT claim gods for a fact don't exist, you're wrong.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Why should "God" be a privileged category?
If I say I don't believe that Bigfoot exists, is that a matter of faith? All I'm saying is that I see a lack of hard evidence, combined with good reasons why people might make up spooky stories when they're alone in the woods at night.

If I say I don't believe that dark matter exists, is that faith? Or am I simply saying that a theory that seemed useful for a while has failed to gain additional confirmation and now appears to be standing in the way of scientific advance.

"God" is just one more theory -- or one more spooky story -- gradually concocted over thousands of years to explain why things are as they are, why humans have notions of right and wrong, and why we sometimes feel that somebody is looking over our shoulder in the dark. During the last few centuries, most of the reasons that originally made "God" seem like an attractive theory have evaporated, either resolved by science or just made obsolete as we become aware of a larger and more varied universe.

All that's left now are the really major, cosmic questions -- like why the universe exists in the first place, or why the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second -- and it isn't clear that those require a "God" to answer. At the very least, they make all the old stories about a "God" who is inextricably tied in with Earth-bound human history seem ludicrous.

Faith, I suspect, has very little to do with real religion. Instead, it's the willingness to accept somebody else's answers instead of arriving at your own. And in this world, there are far too many people who are willing to let someone else tell them what to think.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Faith and Reason...
While I agree with most of what you say, God's a little different than you describe:

"God" is just one more theory -- or one more spooky story -- gradually concocted over thousands of years to explain why things are as they are, why humans have notions of right and wrong, and why we sometimes feel that somebody is looking over our shoulder in the dark. During the last few centuries, most of the reasons that originally made "God" seem like an attractive theory have evaporated, either resolved by science or just made obsolete as we become aware of a larger and more varied universe.

The difference between theories/hypotheses, and articles of faith is that theories/hypotheses can be tested to experimental result. What experiment would you construct to tease out evidence of the existence of a god? Science can construct experiments to find dark matter and Bigfoot. You would look for Bigfoot on the earth in the deep woods. You'd probably infer that this is a reclusive, rare animal so its hiding spot is probably very far away from settled areas. You could search places like this and find nothing. You can postulate and construct experiments in varying degrees of certainty and validity, and in the end, you can say something about Bigfoot, even if its just a list of all the places that he isn't.

How would you even begin to find God? Where would you begin to look? We know that the purported bigfoot is a big hairy beast, by all accounts, and thus we could infer a lot of beastly things about him. What is the nature of God such that you could begin to aim your search?

I believe that should you be able to construct an experiment to tease out evidence of the existence of a god, there are quite a few millenia of theologians and philosophers which would have great cause to be envious of your achievement.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. It's partly a matter of self-protecting hypotheses
I brought up Bigfoot and dark matter because they're examples of phenomena which are defined in such a way that the failure to find them almost becomes proof of their existence.

Bigfoot is defined as being shy, dwelling in deep forests, being similar enough to humans to have to avoid inhabiting the same ecological niches, and being intelligent enough to avoid detection. As a result, the very failure to catch or kill one becomes a "proof" of its shyness, near-human intelligence, and so forth.

Dark matter is similarly defined as being invisible and generally undetectable except through its gravitational influence -- so the more you fail to detect it, the more it proves the hypothesis.

In a similar way, over the last few centuries "God" has become completely uncoupled from the physical universe, so that no objective phenomena can be used to either prove or disprove the existence of "God." But a hypothesis that cannot be either proven or disproven in any conceivable manner becomes nonsense. It doesn't take faith to disbelieve that colorless green ideas sleep furiously, and it doesn't take faith to disbelieve that "God exists."

The physical irrelevance of "God" has had obvious effects on the nature of religion in the modern era. You can do the predestination thing, in which the fate of each soul is set from the start and unaffected by any material events. You can have deism, in which God sets up the initial conditions for the universe and then sits back to let them take their course. You can follow the fundamentalists in claiming that God is at work in all those events whose causes are too obscure to pin down (like the paths of hurricanes or who lives and who dies in a plane crash) but not in those where you might actually be able to detect some sign of outside intervention. Or you can try a New Agey sort of system in which souls are run through one or more lifetimes in the material world in order to learn valuable lessons for when they return to more spiritual planes.

But one way or another, once you take God out of the physical universe, you're left with the problem of what you define God as being and what role you define God as playing. In fact, now that I look over what I wrote just above, it strikes me that all four of the alternatives I laid out are alike in making the individual human soul the center of divine attention and leaving the physical universe with little or no role to play, except perhaps as a source of tests or lessons or instructive examples.

Which may go a long way toward explaining the twin problems of of environmental degredation and runaway egotism that afflict our culture in all its aspects.

But that aside, before I agree that my non-belief in anything like a traditional "God" is a matter of faith, I'd like to have some clearer definition of what it is that I'm theoretically supposed to be having faith in the non-existence of.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Basis for atheism...
There are a couple of ways this could be approached. If atheism, to you, is a matter of rejecting faith, based upon the fact that religion is an illogical construct given what you've come to know, you'll get no argument from me. This is a provable statement. Historical analysis and interpretation generally lends itself well to the interpretation that religion was created by man to create God, and to do so in his own image. There is certainly enough evidence in history to support the idea that god is something man invents to make him feel special in a world that is not necessarily his friend. It certainly does play into my estimation of human nature: since we don't like to blame ourselves for our faults and lack of success, it is an emotional salve to attribute our failings and foibles on devils we need protecting from. A bit convenient, that.

On the other hand, we are not discussing the imperfect raison d'etre of religion when we discuss atheism. Atheism is a belief in no god by its root definitions. Let me clarify the definition of God at least as far as I see it as being relevant.

We are discussing the existence of God, not only as Christian or other monotheistic faiths see it: as some alternately vicious or caring ubermensch which sits in the heavens looking down on all of our activities, passing judgment on them, making a list and checking it twice. No, we are talking about even the rawest form of God's existence, an intelligence, a prime mover with a will and a plan for the universe, that creates it, even if it no longer guides its behavior. This is God. An unknowable overriding intelligence that brings the universe into being for inscrutable reason and unpredictable end.

To prove or disprove such a thing exists means that we must exceed the confines of the universe to be able to say for certain one way or another, because the notion of God we refer to is extrauniversal. Since we cannot exceed these confines we can not know the nature of this conjecture with any certainty. However, once we find ourselves certain of what we cannot know, we must call that faith by definition. Atheism, therefore, is as much faith as Christianity or Islam, if we are certain that God does not exist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. "No dress in my cabin"
Your argument reminds me oddly of a line from the current Pirates of the Caribbean movie, where Captain Jack Sparrow says to Elizabeth, "You know, these clothes do not flatter you at all. It should be a dress or nothing. I happen to have no dress in my cabin."

Or if you don't like getting your philosophy from Hollywood blockbusters, how about Alice Through the Looking-Glass:
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light."

Mythological virtuosos like Captain Jack or Alice may be able to deal in an objective sort of way with ontological negativities, but I'm not that good. I don't wear no dress, I don't see nobody, and I don't believe in no God.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I like how you put that...
I don't believe in no God neither. I guess I'm one of the faithful. Be well. :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. "Atheism is a belief in no god by its root definitions." Again, false.
That definition only applies to strong atheists, not all atheists.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. Saying "I don't believe gods or Bigfoot exist"...
...is not an affirmative declaration of the non-existence of either, but rather an affirmative declaration of the fact that you don't happen to believe in them. So you are entirely correct.

"Faith, I suspect, has very little to do with real religion. Instead, it's the willingness to accept somebody else's answers instead of arriving at your own. And in this world, there are far too many people who are willing to let someone else tell them what to think."

And that way lies "Iraq has WMDs and will attack us in 45 minutes!"

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Atheism is not the belief that no gods exist.
Edited on Sat Aug-05-06 03:55 PM by Zhade
It is the absence of belief in any due to no evidence for them existing (outside of personal, potentially misinterpreted internal experiences).

I do not have faith that no gods exist, because I don't think that way. I don't know everything. If, one day, evidence is finally uncovered that shows one or more of mankind's gods actually exist, I would of course cease to be an atheist.

You describe "strong" atheism, which is but one subset of atheism as a whole. Agnostic atheists like myself don't know that gods exist (no one KNOWS because of the lack of evidence for them) and thus just don't believe in them. It's NOT that I believe it's a fact they don't exist.

</public service announcement>

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. I daresay Auntie Pinko doesn't get too much exposure to
fundies, especially fundy family members who have been known to show the unbeliever 'tough love' by shunning him for his unbelief in the fundy god.
Because splitting up families over different belief systems just screams 'family values', doesnt' it.

I'd say there are more people around this country on the receiving end of this type of 'tough love' than there are 'nasty atheists'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ItNerd4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'm Atheist because Bible supports incest and other
things that Christians say are wrong. I love asking people if the world was started with Adam & Eve. If they say 'yes', then I say "Incest, who would have thought God wanted us to propogate that way."

However, I don't get mean about it. I just point out the absurdities and leave them slack-jawed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. Atheism has very little to do with it
It's far more about people with claims that there is special knowledge that they alone possess and that gives them an advantage over everyone else.

Kind of like insider trading, only without the reality.

For my part, I don't *believe* in anything. I do accept that humans have intimations of a larger world than the simple kick-a-rock materiality that surrounds us -- as well as a sense that from a higher vantage point life would make much more sense.

And it seems pretty clear to me that all religions without exception are attempts to express those vague intimations in the form of made-up stories and invented personages.

Make-believe is all well and good as a means of pointing to something outside our everyday sphere of reference and suggesting to people who don't normally think about such matters that it is possible to see themselves and their lives inside a larger context.

But getting hung up on the make-believe is fatal -- kind of like believing that the Internet actually is a set of pipes that can get clogged up and delay your email. It leads people to do very stupid things if they take it literally. It causes wars between groups that adhere to slightly different flavors of make-believe.

But perhaps worst of all is that it fills people's heads with false ideas of a higher reality that is just ordinary reality writ large -- like those Jehovah's Witnesses pamphlets with drawings of Heaven that are all flowers and bunny rabbits. When that happens, "religion" becomes the enemy of everything that religions were originally designed to achieve.

That's why, although I am neither nasty nor precisely an atheist (except in a narrowly technical sense), I am perfectly capable of talking about "fairy-tales" or "sky-fairies." If I were less well-behaved, I'd probably be wandering the streets, screaming at people that they're idolators who need to smash their idols -- or that they're living on a stage set and need to break out of it to get to the real world.

It people take those sorts of statements as painful or unpleasant, and not as challenges to upgrade the quality of their faith, it really does suggest they are making a deliberate choice to live with their current flattering illusions. I don't know how to state it any more politely.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. Great Post!
really

it expresses a lot of things that I think as well
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm the Nice Satanist
Pleasure meeting you. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Likewise... heh heh.. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
25. I do think Atheism is faith, but I don't personally confuse God with
any religion.

Peace to you in whatever you believe. I respect your right to worship X or not.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. What Is Atheism "Faith" In? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
27. sounds like a song title from a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta . . . n/t
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
28. well said n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
32. That is why
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 05:46 PM by Zebedeo
I would say that belief is as strong and purposeful in my life as it is in any 'person of faith', and that, to me, IS faith.


I don't want your faith to be enshrined as the official religion of our government.

On edit: Please note that I am not here stating that OTHER atheists have faith or a religion. I understand that some OTHER atheists regard that as inaccurate and insulting. I am saying nothing whatever about the faith or lack thereof of anyone except the OP. However, the OP emphatically and unmistakably stated that his/her atheism is a "faith." It is that faith that I do not want to see enacted as the official government religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Hi Zeb
Edited on Wed Aug-02-06 01:04 AM by BuffyTheFundieSlayer
I don't want your faith to be enshrined as the official religion of our government.


That's fine. As a matter of fact, neither do I (though I don't consider atheism to be a faith but that's beside the point). In fact, I don't want any faith to be enshrined as the official religion of our government. Separation of Church and State are the only way to ensure equal religious and human rights for all.


edit to fix parenthesis
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Correct
I don't want any faith to be enshrined as the official religion of our government.


OK with me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. You Know, That's The Part I Don't Get About The RR
they all aren't part of the same sect.

Yet they all seem to espouse wanting prayer in school, etc. mixing of church and state

do they not have the foresight to see (or hindsight to see) that once you cross that line, someone's beliefs will not be the official beliefs.

I mean, does the Baptist want the Catholic teaching their child about God?

or visa versa, or worse, the Assembly of God person wanting the Baptist to teach their child how to pray?

Why can't prayer, and religion remain in the church, or in the home?

It is totally ILLOGICAL to even want it in the "state"

Even the founders of our country would agree with that since many of them were fleeing the Church of England or other churches or theocracies.

People never learn, history repeats itself?

I "pray" that we don't have a theocracy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. That's exactly what they don't get
They think if they get prayer and ID legislated into the schools and a complete theocracy in the US that everything will be based on their personal beliefs. The reality is that they are not the only Christian sect in the nation, as much as they like to think they are (and as much as they like to think they are the superior one). They assume that when prayers are said in school they will be of a fundamentalist bent, and that all of the teachers of religion courses will be fundamentalist--not Catholic or liberal Christian. They think that any time a religious monument goes up in America it will speak of their religious beliefs and nobody else's, and that every law will impose their will on the nation.

The church/synagogue/temple and the home are fitting places for worship, religious discussion, imposition of religious rules and religious study. Public schools/venues and the government are not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Thanks, Zeb. Seriously.
Your ability to differentiate between the OP's atheism-is-his-faith and the non-faith of atheism like mine is duly noted and appreciated.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
35. Mostly nice rant, but atheism isn't a faith, though it may be for you.
NT!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 08th 2024, 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC