So, How about a little religion in the R/T forum.

[cosmik debris]

I was having a discussion with a friend who describes himself as a loyal Catholic. (I’m not sure that matters, but there it is.) We were discussing the commandment “Thou shalt not kill.” We agreed that the original meaning was “Thou shalt not murder.” But we were in disagreement on what murder was. We looked and found no explanation in the Bible (Oxford Annotated KJV)

Two questions arose. Does the Christian God define murder? (I would appreciate chapter and verse) And if not, is that left to the followers? (And that opens the can of worms that mankind gets to interpret God’s laws in a self-serving manner.)

So now, all you Christians who are tired of the bickering have a chance to discuss religion in the R/T forum. I will not respond to any of your posts because I am not one of you. I just want to hear your thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

[beam me up scottie]

1. Don't listen to him.

It's a trap.

[lvx35]

2. This is actually an area where much of the best insight is Jewish.

I remember reading a jewish version of the ten commandments where that commandment was literally "thou shall not murder" or something like that....Of course thou shall not kill is not in line at all with the rest of the OT, so it made a lot of sense. There was also a lot of rabbinical analysis I read where they dealt with a lot of the issues. Unfortunately I remember almost none of it.

[Kiouni]

3. yeah it is in the Torah

which gives you the whole way of life.

[Kiouni]

4. Numbers 35:10-18

16 " 'If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 17 Or if anyone has a stone in his hand that could kill, and he strikes someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 18 Or if anyone has a wooden object in his hand that could kill, and he hits someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death.

[EST]

5. I was taught that the original language of

"Thou shalt not kill" implied 'within your own tribe,' meaning murder. I don't see it that way. But then I do not claim christianity as my guiding beacon.

[Evoman]

6. I had this conversation with two christian friends of mine.

..I actually stayed out of the debate, because it was interesting seeing them debate. One of them said that absolutely no killing was justified, and that its better to die (and go to heaven) rather than kill and risk hell. The other friend disagreed and said that self-defense killing (not murder) was justified, and that god wouldn't mind.

I just sat and drank my coffee. It tasted pretty good....an exotic blend.

[jhrobbins]

9. Wow! I am a CHristian and I thought I had pretty much ...

distilled my personal beliefs into a cogent little package that made sense to me and then you relate this. I never considered that killing in self defense was, in any way, a problem. I would still do it, I think, but I am going to think about this some.O8)

[Ready4Change]

7. Hmmm

"Does the Christian God define murder? (I would appreciate chapter and verse)"

- I don't know chapters and verses, and I don't think it matters. If there is a God, and if he has ever given us his definition of murder, he's been damn lax about repeating the message. The result is several thousand years of humans playing "telephone" with his word, resulting in vast confusion, and an entire world operating without a reliable operators manual.

"And if not, is that left to the followers?"

- If, or if not, it's up to us. Clearly God (again, IF there is a God) isn't into making things clear. We're left with nothing but questionable writings hundreds or thousands of years old for guidance, being promoted by people and institutions with clearly compromised motives. In a nutshell, it IS up to us. Pretty shitty spot we're in, because if there is a single thing that comes through all that writing, it's that if we don't get things right, we're up the creek without a boat, much less a paddle.

That leads me to think one of the following must be true:

1. There is no God, just screwed up myths created by humans.

or 2. There is a God, and he's a screw up.

or 3. There is a God, and he's an asshole.

or 4. There is a God(s), and he/she/they are misrepresented by just about every single organized religion on the planet.

fini

[SPKrazy]

8. I Think It Boils Down To Common Sense

self defense, perhaps acts of war? yes

pre-meditated cold blooded murder? no way

crimes of "passion"? don't know

terrorism? no way

I think that the understanding has in my religious upbringing always been about murder of people, not about the other.

I've never bothered to look it up in the bible because I always have thought the 10 commandments were pretty straightforward. JMO

[Dogmudgeon]

10. "Lo Tirtzakh" = "No Kill"

In the Torah, that commandment is Lo tirtzakh -- "no kill".

The whole explanation that "kill" is really "murder" is right-wing revisionism from religious fascists who want to assuage what remains of their consciences by believing that God approves of their acts of violence.

Tirtzakh is the Hebrew word for kill. Nothing more. Context matters, not self-justification.

--p!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. The Commandment DOES

leave a lot of wiggle room. Like kill who or what? Evidently it's okay to kill animals. But what about killing in wars? Well, in the psalms the psalmist spends a lot of time begging God to smite his enemies.

I am grateful I am a woman and have never had to make the personal moral decision about killing in a war. I don't know how I would respond.

[Lilith Velkor]

13. I know a woman who got drafted

She ended up going to jail for refusing to drop bombs on people she didn't even know.

She's a Satanist now.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

14. Where and when was this??

I never heard of a woman being drafted, except in Israel everybody is.

I think I might have ended up in jail, too.

[Lilith Velkor]

15. It was Israel

You might have started worshipping the Devil as well, you just never know about these things.

Pretty ironic considering the commandment to not kill, though.

[hunter]

12. Bite me.

I win with a clear conscience.

When I'm cooking my neighbors on my BBQ, I will do it knowing that no true human being could have ever supported George W. Bush.

:sarcasm: (tag for the brain-damaged among us, including myself.)

[The Jacobin]

16. As a loyal catholic, your friend should know

that the teaching of the Church is contained in both the scripture and the magisteruim of the Church. So look at the Catechism:

What do the scriptures say?

2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."(Ex 23:7) The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

2262 In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord recalls the commandment, "You shall not kill," and adds to it the proscription of anger, hatred, and vengeance. Going further, Christ asks his disciples to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies.(Cf. Mt 5:22-39; 5:44.) He did not defend himself and told Peter to leave his sword in its sheath.(Cf. Mt 26:52.)

Legitimate defense is allowed.

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life. Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. To this end, those holding legitimate authority have the right to repel by armed force aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their charge.

Intentional homicide is prohibited.

2268 The fifth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful. The murderer and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance. Infanticide, fratricide, parricide, and the murder of a spouse are especially grave crimes by reason of the natural bonds which they break. Concern for eugenics or public health cannot justify any murder, even if commanded by public authority.

Abortion is prohibited.

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.
From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.

Euthanasia is prohibited.

2277 Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable. Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator.

Suicide is prohibited.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.