The Value of Life

[varkam]

Just a quick question: According to the Christian tradition, where does life get value? For example, there is an edict against murder, which presupposes the value of life. What is the source of such value in the Christian faith?

[greyl]

1. do i understand that you don't mean only human life? nt

[varkam]

3. either / or eom

[varkam]

2. self-delete

[dattaswamI]

4. Purpose of human life

Purpose of human life

In the materialistic plane one person says that the aim of his life is to achieve a particular post and then help his family members. Some other person says that the aim of his life is to serve the mankind. We appreciate the second aim as higher than the first one. The highest aim of the human life can be known only in the spiritual plane. The sole aim of this creation is pleasing God through the entertainment. Every human being is a part of the creation and so the same aim applies to every human being also. The human being becomes fruitful if it serves the Lord and pleases the Lord through the service. Service means the sacrifice of work and sacrifice of the fruit of the work. Service is the proof of the real love.

The mother serves her child by sacrificing lot of work like giving bath, dressing etc., for years together continuously. The father serves the child by sacrificing the fruit of all his hard work to the child. It is a clear practical point that the proof of the real love is only service. If you serve your family you love your family. If you serve the entire world you love the creation. If you serve the creator, you love the creator. It is a very simple point.

Love is the attraction of mind towards anybody or anything. When the illness attacks the body you take so much care to serve your body. You love your body. Similarly you serve your father, mother, wife and children because your mind is attracted towards them. What is the first pre-requisite for this love? When you love your child, you are aware that a particular small living being is your child and you have the differentiating knowledge of your child from other children who are similar. Similarly, when you love God you must be aware of the form of God, who must be differentiated from other forms as your child is differentiated from other children. You are identifying your child by certain special characteristics like shape of the face, voice etc; you are not recognizing your child by the clothes, which it puts on. Other children put on such clothes also. Similarly, you must distinguish the Creator from the creation and then only love the creator. You cannot love the entire creation as the creator. Do you love all the children as your own children?

Therefore, the pre-requisite of love is the true knowledge and the inseparable identifying characteristics of an object by which you get attracted towards it. Therefore, what is the real form of God? And how it differs from other forms? What are the inseparable identifying characteristics of God? The answers for these questions constitute the detailed true knowledge of God. Only such true knowledge generates attraction and love. When you know the separate special details of Bombay, which are not seen in any other city, then only you are attracted to Bombay and like to see it.

Before proceeding to the identifying true knowledge of God, you must also know the purpose of your attraction towards an object. You love your child, and there is no purpose in it. You also love a doctor when you are ill. But that love is not real. It is not love at all. It is only artificial apparent love exhibited for a purpose. You want the doctor to help you. Therefore, true love is that when there is no purpose in it. False love is that in which purpose is present. Generally almost all the people love God because God is omni-potent. He has miraculous powers to do anything, which is impossible for any body on this earth. When a problem comes and when one fails to solve it by all the means existing in this world, one starts loving God to solve that unique problem.

Therefore, you love the position or power of God and not the God. A poet shows lot of love and appreciation on a king in his spontaneous poetry because the poet loves the power and the wealth of the king. He expects the king to donate some land or to give him some money after being pleased with his poems. The poet does not love the person who is the king. He loves the king only. Will he write the same poems if the king looses his kingdom and becomes a beggar? In his poetry the poet praised that the king is very beautiful with sweet voice and infinite wisdom. These qualities still remain with the king even if he has become the beggar. But the poet does not praise the same qualities of that beggar because the beggar cannot donate anything to him. The post of the king and the kingdom are separable characteristics, whereas the qualities are inseparable characteristics.

You can easily identify the person by these inseparable characteristics and if your love on Him is real, you will love him whether he is a king or a beggar. Are you not loving your son and praise him whether he serves you or not? Sita garlanded and married Rama who will be the future king of Ayodhya. The love of Sita may be on Rama only or may be on the kingdom of Ayodhya for which she can become queen or may be both put together. Rama tested her love by discarding the kingdom and by going to the forest. Sita followed Rama to the forest. Her love was only on Rama and not on the kingdom. Ravana further tested this. Ravana offered her to become the queen. But she refused.

Therefore, the love on God should be analyzed and should be decided whether God is loved or His omni-potent miraculous power is loved for our advantage. Some people want to take advantage in this world and some others want to take the advantage in the upper world so that they can be protected from the hell. In both cases the love on God is not true. It is only the love on his associated power. Sankara says that the true love on God should not have any desire related to this world or to the upper world (Ihaamutra Phala Viragah). If the love is on the power of the God only what is the use of the real form of God or the inseparable characteristics of the God?

The poet loves anybody as the king. For him anybody on the thrown is beautiful and is very wise. In such case if the king donates the desired land or cash by seeing the poem written by a poet, the poet does not bother to see or talk with the king. Therefore, when we love God’s power for some advantage, we need not worry about His form or in seeing or talking with God. You can just chant the prayers. He responds to your prayers and your desire is fulfilled. In such case one need not see the God and the God also does not want to see his or her bloody face.

When a mother wants to see her child, she is not thinking about any advantage out of it. In fact the mother presents some cash to the son as a gift and if the son needs, she will even sell all her jewels and sacrifice for the sake of her son. Similarly, if the person is having true love on God, that person wants to see God not for any advantage, but even at the cost of disadvantage. For such person only God appears and such person only can see, talk, touch and can even live along with the God. For such persons only there is need of the enquiry of the real form of God.

The real form of God is unimaginable as said in Vedas and there is no question of seeing or talking or touching the God. Gita also says that nobody can know God (Mam tu Veda Na..). Such unimaginable God cannot be said to have a form or formless. The Creator is beyond the creation, which is a four-dimensional network of space and time along with matter and energy. The creation contains both formless items like space, energy and air and also formful items like water, earth etc. If you say God as formful or formless, then God becomes a part of the creation and not beyond the creation. Veda says that no item in the creation including the pure awareness or life energy is God (Neti, Neti…). But there are real devotees who have real love towards God and want to see, touch, talk and live along with God for no selfish advantage either in this or in the upper world. The God who has infinite kindness and infinite love cannot reject such real love.

The God is omni-potent and can satisfy the desire of such real devotees and the real devotees are crying for such fortune of vision etc. The God is capable and the devotee deserves. Nobody can put his finger between these two. To satisfy the real devotees God comes in human form and all these four fortunes are blessed upon the real devotees. If God comes in the form of space or energy, which is formless or in the form of statues, He cannot grant these fortunes. He can talk, touch and live with the devotees when He comes in the human form only. Only the human body can do such things as per laws of nature. The nature is His creation and the laws of nature are the rules of His own administration. He will not violate these rules except in the case of inevitable emergency.

Why should He use His special power (Maya) and talk or touch or live with you in the form of space or energy or statues? When the purpose is served through the normal routine, why are you so rigid about the abnormal way? God need not heed to the foolish rigid behaviour of some human beings. Infact they want to pray the formless God or God in the form of a statue for the sake of their selfish convenience only. You can offer food to formless God or statue and then you can eat the entire food. You are satisfied as if you have given meals to God and at the same time not even a grain of rice is lost. There are many inconvenient losses and troubles with the human form of God. But the real devotees are not worried about such loss and infact they are happy to loose if God can enjoy by that. They feel happy when God eats that food. The mother visits her son and pays him some cash. When the son is happy with that she derives infinite happiness and does not feel it as a loss or trouble.

The mother will stay with her son and serve him day and night if necessary and feels very happy about it. Similarly, these real devotees feel happy to serve the Lord and they are happy about the loss incurred in it.
Lord came to the human form as Krishna for the sake of Gopikas only and not for others. Only Gopikas could recognize Him and served the Lord by offering butter and they felt happy in such sacrifice. They did not feel such sacrifice as loss. Krishna was not their child. But they loved Him more than their children. They did not give butter even to their own children and offered it to the Lord. Their love to God crossed even their love to their children. When such real love exists, God comes in human form and reveals His identity to you. Your love must be real and must be practically proved by the sacrifice of work (Karma Sanyasa) and sacrifice of fruit of work (Karma Phala Tyaga) as emphasized in Gita. Sacrifice of words, mind and intelligence, which are freely supplied to you by God is like offering drinking water to the guest, which was freely supplied by the municipality.

But sacrifice of work and fruit of work are like offering the meals to the guest and it is sacrifice of your hard-earned money. Of-course the meals must be associated with drinking water also and at the same time mere drinking water is almost nothing. Sacrifice becomes complete, which is the complete proof of your real love only, when you sacrifice mind, words, intelligence, work and fruit of work. Sacrifice of words is prayer and sacrifice of mind is meditation, sacrifice of intelligence is the spiritual discussion. Therefore, meditation alone is the sacrifice of the mind i.e., supplied freely by God. Sacrifice of anything, which is hard earned by your work, is the real main sacrifice.
When the Lord exposes Himself as the source of all infinite super natural powers, all the people will run to Him with same speed and will sacrifice to their maximum. In such case you cannot differentiate the real devotee from a fraud devotee. The reason is that the super natural power attracts all the people with equal force. When acids are dissolved in water they show equal strengths because water being high polar solvent attracts the hydrogen ions from all acids equally so that their extent of ionization becomes same.

The strong acid cannot be differentiated from a weak acid. This is called as leveling effect. When the same acids are dissolved in glacial acetic acid, which is a weak solvent, the acids will ionize to different extent as per their inherent nature. When an official asks for some amount of money, all the merchants will run to him with equal speed and give that amount. In this case you cannot differentiate the real donor from the real greedy merchant. But when a beggar begs for some money, a real donor donates whereas a greedy person refuses. The real nature of the individuals comes out in the case of the beggar only. Similarly, when God comes in human form and exhibits the super natural powers all the people rush to Him with equal speeds and show equal love on God. Even if God recognizes the real devotee by His power and rewards him, the other devotees will find fault with the God. They will argue that even though the extent of devotion is equal, the Lord showed partiality. Therefore, God in human form will not exhibit miracles and will exhibit only His inseparable special knowledge, which projects Him as Guru only and not Bhagavan. Datta means God donated to the devotees in human form. His right half is Guru and the left half is Bhagavan. The right half is only projected and the left half is hidden. In such case only the real devotees can be filtered.

It is easy to approach the human incarnation and praise Him as God. But the most important part is to retain the same faith through out the life. When Datta becomes inconvenient in practical way the faith should persist. The faith should be practical and permanent. The recognition of human incarnation must be done with the help of the sacred scriptures like Vedas, Brahma sutras and Gita. You must take a long time to decide the human incarnation. Once you have decided you must stick to that in spite of all the troubles and inconvenience, which you face practically. There is no use of catching somebody in haste and then withdraw by the next day. You will continue like this through out your life. Therefore, you must study all the scriptures and be thorough with the divine knowledge, which generates the devotion or love. If your devotion is real you must prove it by your service. The real love is only one-way traffic. Attaining the God, seeing Him and talking with Him are useless. Demons have seen and talked with God by doing long penance. What is the use of it? They were finally destroyed. Even if you don’t see or talk with God, if you please Him through your proven real love, you are blessed. Rama never saw Lord Siva.

But He was blessed. Ravana saw and talked with Siva, but was destroyed. Therefore, pleasing the Lord should be our final aim and not mere vision or conversation. If your aim is only to solve your problem in this world or in the upper world or in both, you have nothing to do with the formless God or form of God. Your work is done when you pray for it sincerely. But mind that your sincerity is not on God but it is on the solution of your problem. God in a temporary way only does the solution for your problems, which is not good for you in the long run. He postpones your bad results and brings your good results from the future births. By this, you have to enjoy the results of the deeds, which you have done and you cannot enjoy the results of the deeds, which you have not done. It is like sending your application to the officer through a peon paying the necessary amount and getting back the application with the signature of the officer.

You have nothing to do with the personality or qualities of the officer. But when a girl loves the officer, she likes to see the personality and know about his qualities. His position as an officer is only one of the several aspects. Often, she neglects this aspect of the post, when the personality and qualities attracted her. Similarly, a real devotee feels happy by knowing the details of God and he is not worried about the benefit from the God. In such case, the Lord enjoys the bad results of that real devotee and gives him eternal happiness. Some people are not bothered about God and go on doing the worldly works continuously. They believe in themselves only. Such people are either athiests or just neglect the God. But the so-called devotees also do not love the God really. They show false love on God and all their real love is only in the solutions of their problems. They want to visit the Lord and try to show their anxiety about the personality of the Lord. All that is only to please the Lord who may be helpful in the future problems. These devotees are also not better than those atheists in any way. But the Lord allows these devotees because there is a hope of change in their attitude and become the real devotees. Prahlada was always absorbed in the personality of the Lord and did not ask for any help even in the torture.

He was only remembering the Lord in such situation. Hanuman served the Lord Rama not for any gift in return. In fact when Sita gave the chain of pearls, He broke those pearls to see Rama in those pearls. Rama never announced the gift given to Hanuman and Hanuman never aspired for any gift. Rama gave the post of creator of this world and the matter was not revealed to anybody. By revealing that, Rama never wanted to pose Himself as the Lord. Hanuman was not even aware of that post because His mind was only on the personality of Rama. Similarly, Radha never aspired for any thing and she was given a special top most world (Goloka). Arjuna had partial devotion and therefore, the final fruit was partly happiness and partly misery. Duryodhana invited Lord Krishna for a big feast in His honour. Krishna never attended it and finally destroyed them. All the respect and love shown by Duryodhana were only to exploit Lord Krishna in the war. When Krishna was found useless for him, he was angry with Krishna and tried to chain Him. This shows that he did not even recognize Krishna as the Lord. Therefore, the Lord gives vision, conversation and co-living etc., only for the real devotees who do not aspire anything in return.

The worst devotees want practical fruits from the Lord by serving Him through words, feelings and intellectual discussions. The middle class devotees sacrifice practically for the Lord and aspire practical results in return. These types of devotees are businessmen and the above type of devotees are prostitutes. A businessman invests some amount and tries to get back more amounts in return. A prostitute tries to earn the amount from a person without investing any amount and investing only sweet words, sweet feelings and artificial discussions. The last type of devotees serves the Lord practically and do not aspire any result from the Lord either theoretically or practically. For such devotees only the Lord comes in human form and gives His experience to them and save them in this and as well as in the upper world.


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
[e-mail]

[greyl]

5. I disagree. nt

[varkam]

6. That's nice.

But what does that have to do with the question that I posed?

[undergroundpanther]

7. I think a life matters when you relate to it.

When a relationship to another living being is mutually enhancing it makes you value that life.Also people do not like to be around or see weakness suffering sickness deformity,etc.It triggers some primitive biological defense mechanism that makes us avoid contaminants or sickness.

Lastly and this I know TONS of people will disagree with on this,But because I see quality of relationships as what makes life meaningful,..A life that is unethical, hurtful, toxic to peaceful caring,creative decent people to relate to,as in a bully an abuser or tyrant an authoritarian a greed head,,those types of lives because of the personality and destructiveness of them to anyone that attempts to relate to them are worthless to me,they are like cancers to good relationships that in turn make decent societies to exist within,impossible and dangerous and traumatic.....So,I really do not care if every rapist, pedophile animal abuser,authoritarian,malignant narcissist,spouse beater,bully personality and the bodies housing them all died tomorrow. I prefer a good relationship over a toxic one any day.I prefer a society that values lives that do not seek to deliberately harm others and destroy trust,.. over harmful lives that hurt others and exploit relationships and abuse trust for perverse kicks, greed,addiction to fantasies or sadism or ego trips...or some other crap.

[varkam]

8. That's

a lot of dead people.

[greyl]

9. To re-clarify,...you're talking all life, right? edit: biologically? nt

[varkam]

10. Insofar as whatever value is ascribed to life within the Christian...

...tradition. I expect more of an emphasis to be placed on "human" life, given that throughout the Christian tradition that has been the case.

[greyl]

11. Ok. Sorry for asking, but oddly, I've heard adults say

that (non-human) animals aren't "life".

[undergroundpanther]

12. what???

Ummm animals look alive to me.. They appear to have spiritual traits.My cats have spirits,they care,they are tenderly sweet,they have deep emotions and expressive ,noble ,beautiful open hearts,I myself have not found in many humans during my time incarcerated on Earth.

IMHO some humans are more dead inside than this 'adult' describes animals as being..,I'd rather be with my sweet cats and their golden spirits that nourish me when so many humans failed me, any day than hang around jerks with no spirit in them who think they are so spiritual,like Dobson or Santorum..

[greyl]

13. Yes.

and it was an adult who I'm quite close to.

I never imagined that other's might seperate "life" like that.
Maybe it was alzheimers. I almost hope it was. ;)

[undergroundpanther]

17. I separate life very simply

Life that deliberately abuses life for kicks or trips ,isn't worth living around.Since I cannot vacate this planet at will it's either the good people stop the bad people by whatever works or the bad people will continue to con,abuse,destroy or enslave the good people and make life a misery not worth living. It IS that stark.

If those bad personalities that hurt lives and get off on it are too common,so that eliminating them looks too much like an Apocalypse,regardless ..I will not pretend to make the bad people disappear under masks of sanity or fake kindness ,nor will I bow down to them to spare myself sociopaths wrath,I will just call evil what it is..Evil.And to me Evil does not deserve my tolerance,pity,life, love or liberty past a certain point.

I know it will use good things vulnerabilities dreams hopes in people to cause more pain to good people it manipulates and traumatizes.It's all got to stop somewhere. Love does no good things for those who cannot relate in love. Jesus seemed to understand that evil is insatiable and is defective in the empathy department and predatory upon good people ..Why so many modern Christians don't get this .. I dunno why. The Gnostic's understood it.

[varkam]

14. As to my personal opinion

The lines of distinction between ourselves and "lower" animals are largely artificial and serve only to reassure our egos that have been bruised by scientific discovery. For instance, most people would think that taking the life of a gorilla and taking the life of a human are two different things (the latter being worse, morally, from the former), but that is only because the intermediates - that is, the evolutionary "steps" between "lower" forms of life and ourselves - are extinct. If they were still around, where would we put that line?

Enough about my opinion, though. I refer mainly to human life as, I've heard here and there, that lower animals do not have souls or can not make moral decisions (which, I would think, implies lack of a soul).

[greyl]

15. So, you're OP is about Homo Sapiens Sapiens?

"Mainly"?

I refer mainly to human life

Throw me a bone! ;)

[undergroundpanther]

18. What about humans

Who for all appearances lack a human soul? As in sadists abusers? Those people that enjoy causing peaceful people such pain for kicks or power trips? Are they the same kind as people who do not do this stuff and have no desire to do it and mst be provoked in duress or coerced to do such things under threats..? Are there Vessels of Wrath as described in the Bible..than the rest of us..Remember the Vessels of Wrath thing?

As it appears on Earth The vessels of wrath are the bully targets rape victims, and traumatized vets..ect..ect..Not the sociopaths who feel no love or empathy for whom they mistreat not caring who they hurt or how bad to get what they want,,you know,evil people.
Are there two kinds of souls in humans? One of Cain one of Abel?

The Bible hints at this. I think to value human life these kinds of arguments and passages might be worth breaching..

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. Panther,

I tend to see humanity as you do and I too, wonder if there are two polar opposites when it comes to souls.

[greyl]

28. Heheh, right on.

I'm fond of pointing out that humans have been around for nearly 3 million years, so I appreciate your points. :)

[greyl]

35. I mean right off.

Skimming, I somehow missed that you were saying some people have knowledge of who shall live and who shall die. That's actually the opposite of what I thought you were saying, and I couldn't be more opposed.

[Random_Australian]

33. Nah - don't break the commandments.

Gaol if they break laws.

It is not a good thing to draw lines and say that any beyond it ought to die - we would not want the repukes to kill all who support abortion, after all.

[varkam]

20. Sure.

I'm just interested in what people who know more about Christian scripture and tradition have to say about the topic. If it's focused mostly on Homo Sapiens Sapiens, then sure, that's what I'm focused on as well.

[undergroundpanther]

16. sadly

But If you cannot trust them,cannot relate without getting killed maimed or traumatized,you can't contain them,they can't feel empathy and don't care..what can you do? These types of personalities do not want to change,or they can't I dunno why..But regardless A person with a gentle heart,and a will to not abuse or exploit a sensitive soul cannot be preyed upon by these bad people , abused and mistreated forever without being driven insane with the effects of the trauma. I tend to value the lives of people that do not wish me harm ,over people that like to make me suffer and get off on it.

I dunno if we as a species have free will no will of our own or mitigated will,either way abuse cannot just go on indefinitely there has to be an end to it,and if the end means the bully dies than so be it.Why Does Jesus throw Satan and his angels into an ever burning pit and lock it at the end of time if he isn't Destroying or permanently separating evil from good? Jesus seems to be protecting the good people who are vulnerable to evil from exploitation of sin brought on by evil.The violent Apocalypse can be seen as a rescue or intervention from god to remove the evil we refuse to stop or can't bring ourselves to do.To kill or cease what preys upon us..



angel
angel with grand, crow-black wings,
settle down softly near this dusty carcass

i will pretend to believe in a soul...
if you carry it home to a better place

This is what sociopaths DO to peoples souls..Is it any wonder I choose to NOT value their lives..?

this poet knows how it is,anyone who has been there knows those feelings he speaks of..
http://www.dysamoria.com/blog/

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. Have mercy!

[believerinchrist]

19. The value of life is found in God's love for the whole human race.

According to Genesis, He went to the place of darkness where there was no physical life and created life which continued on until the con artist revealed himself and deceived the humans into partaking of a "fruit" that would destroy their physical existence. At that time, God's focus turned to redeeming the human race from the destruction of evil.

One might ask why God didn't just destroy the evil and end its reign. When He created our world (sometime I'll write a post sharing my understanding of the beginning of our world), God gave humans free will. Without that free will, people would be nothing more than puppets--God wanted them to freely choose Him. Thus, He cannot intervene in the human experience without being asked, and He won't act outside of His essence which is love. Anything that is evil does not come from Him--period--no matter what people claim.

Now, God needed a human being to take a stand against the evil one and destroy his power of deception (which ended up bringing death to the human race). Because He knew this human would need something more than what Adam and Eve had, He took part of Himself (His righteousness) and enabled a young woman (who had the required faith) to conceive while still a virgin. Listen, I know the virgin birth is mind-boggling; however, if God did create our world, then He certainly had the power to do this. Thus, the human who was born was truly the Son of God (his inner man) and the Son of Man (his physical existence). The evil one did not understand who Jesus Christ was, but he was determined to destroy him.

Jesus Christ overcame the evil one--until the cross Satan was never able to convince Christ into letting go of God. Christ's righteousness (freedom from sin which is merely unbelief) gave him the power to overcome evil as an individual. However, the human race was still under evil's thumb; in order to set people free, Christ had to meet Satan face to face and destroy his hold on people. So, Christ agreed with God that the way to accomplish that was to allow Satan to take his life--Christ knew that dying would require him to let go of God. God promised him that if he did die, God would give him his life back and Satan would be destroyed. This is what happened on the cross and through Christ's resurrection.

The next question is if this is valid, then why is there still evil and why is it seemingly winning the game? Listen, humans still have the responsibility of their free will. What Christ did is provide the way for us to overcome evil and death--we have to make use of what he has done. This is why we need to be "born again" (righteousness is created within us) and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (the power to know, understand, and use truth to overcome evil). Science can't defeat evil and death; neither can religion. Faith is what defeats the evil one, and the ultimate result of faith is immortality at the return of Christ.

The traditional Christian gospel is focused on death--"If you die tonight, where will you spend eternity?" Listen to what Christ said in John 10:10, "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." Christ came that we might have LIFE more abundant than the loss, the death, and the destruction that evil brings. How I pray for the day when the true understanding of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection gobbles up the deception and death that the con artist has loosed on the human race!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. For God so loved the world

that he gave his only begotten son ... etc.

So I guess we are valued according to Xtian values because we are loved by God.

[varkam]

24. So, if that's the case, then I take it that...

the source of value is extrinsic (i.e. human life not valuable in and of itself)?

[bluesbassman]

25. I don't believe that's the point TG was trying to make.

In response to your observation, human life certainly has value in and of itself. It's our choices in how we use our lives that either adds value or takes it away.

[varkam]

26. I don't know how many other ways I can take...

we are valuable because we are loved by God. If the scriptures hold that human life is valued in and of itselt and that God has nothing to do with it, could you please point me to some support?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. There are lots of references to the value of humans

but I can't think of any that give a rationale. Then there are quite a few references to God loving humans, so I just extrapolated it from that.

I don't think, to a person of faith, you can separate the two.

However, would I to tomorrow throw my faith to the wind, I would still believe in the intrinsic worth of humans because we are unique and only pass this way once, and because the golden rule still makes the most sense.

[undergroundpanther]

29. The bible also says

God is no respecter of persons.. What do you think that means.

What persons does God respect and which does he disrespect?


"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him;" "And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him;" "But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons;" "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" (Acts 10: 34, 35; Eph. 6: 9; Col. 3: 25; I Pet. 1: 17).

Seems like God Respects the people who are totally OBEDIENT to HIM alone,and to hell with the rest. Pagans,gays whatever else non Christian persons are whom he has no respect for..apparently.

How can a god that professes how much he loves his own creation in totality,as in He knows every sparrow,but he destroys it all as in the Noah's ark story because the creation he made offends him,How can God be seen as anything but a dangerous person who attempted to murder the World except for Noah(his most obedient favorite(ie.Elitism based in obedience) his family and each animal in pairs? Than with his anger satiated with a massacre of life he made the rainbow appear..That whole story seems too much like an abusers battering cycle.(scroll down to graphic on page apply it to the Noah story)

http://members.tripod.com/debi_1111-ivil/id54.html

Seems like the rainbow"promise" was just a "honeymoon phase"after the beating.. but again God brags how he chastises his people with suffering for a bet with Satan in the bible(read Job),yet he says he loves us so.Yet Apocalypse looms in some future time where people suffer great torments of God's wrath yet again and the planet will die...This is not the behavior pattern of a loving good good God in my opinion because of this capricious Dr. Jekyll and Mr.Hyde aspects of Gods three faced(dissociative?) personality as described in the Bible. So I do not trust in god because he looks abusive to me and because of that his judgments are not just..They are based in his un-understandable whims.
http://www.residents.com/bh/wwnotes.htm

[Evoman]

30. The story of Noah has always amused me

Why didn't God just kill all the people he was mad at by giving them heart-attacks, and save all the innocent animals. Maybe because the story, and the bible, is full of shit, thats why. How about letting the bad people die in their sleep, instead of drowning them?

God always needlessly complicates things, and tries to prolong suffering. Even if I believed in god, there is no way I would ever worship him.

[undergroundpanther]

32. the noah thing

freaked me out really bad.As a kid,heariong it All I could imagine is what if my cat wasen't picked ?what if my dog wasent or my chickens.they were good freinds..I had a horrible feeling that all my pets and me too would drown if I and they were not the picked ones.I really flipped out,that got me kicked out of sunday school.

[Zhade]

44. Um, because it never happened.

(I know, you already know this, it just bears repeating. NEVER. HAPPENED.)

[believerinchrist]

31. The Bible is a progressive revelation of God.

Let's say I have a toddler who I love very much. One of my major concerns is to keep the child safe--I do not want her to run out into the street and get run over by a car. Since she is too young to understand what a car is or the damage the car can do to her, I tell her that if she runs out in the street, I will spank her (one of the few times spanking is justified--and I mean spanking, not beating). I want her to obey me which will keep her safe. (If, for some reason, while away from me, the child disregards my command, runs into the street, and is severely injured, it would not be my fault.) By the time she's in her teens, she should be able to understand the danger of running out into the street, and the threat of spanking will no longer be necessary.

This is where the Old Testament writers were--they were toddlers--there was so much they did not understand about the God, the world, and the kingdom of evil. Thus, in order to keep them safe from Satan, God set some rules in place. And because the writers did not understand Satan or the kingdom of evil, when they disobeyed and bad things happened, they blamed God. Even the New Testament writers lacked some knowledge in completely understanding the conflict between the kingdom of good and the kingdom of evil. After all, the Bible was not written at that point.

Today we have the advantage of having the completed Bible and a better understanding of language. While the selections contained in the Bible were not the only ones written during the time of the two Testaments, they contain enough information to enable the human race to overcome evil. Those who believe in Christ need to press into understanding and using the Bible to win the war against the destruction the kingdom of evil has mounted against the human race. And the way to win it is in the power of God's love!

Just a couple of comments about Job--God didn't bet Satan anything. Satan roams the earth looking for people to destroy and you bet he had his eye on Job who was perhaps the most righteous man alive at that time. The literal Hebrew of the words "Hast thou considered my servant Job..." (Job 1:8) is "Hast thou set thy heart on my servant Job..." Instead of setting Job up, God was about limiting Satan on what he could try in Job's life. And the beauty of this story is that after Job worked through the sadistic comments of his comforters, God began answering his prayers. A young man named Elihu (which means God Himself) spoke some hard truths to Job and set the stage for God to speak directly to Job. God pointed out who He is and who Satan (symbolized by the leviathan and the behemoth)is. Job really heard God and that changed his life. He discovered that his faith had been based on himself and not on the character of God. When Satan came against him, he was not able to withstand the onslaught because his faith was based on the righteous works he did, not on who God is.

So many people only know bits and pieces of the Bible--how much further ahead would the human race be if individuals would insist that God give us the knowledge, understanding, and wisdom we need to overcome the kingdom of evil!

[undergroundpanther]

34. Progressive??

This is where the Old Testament writers were--they were toddlers--there was so much they did not understand about the God, the world, and the kingdom of evil. Thus, in order to keep them safe from Satan, God set some rules in place. And because the writers did not understand Satan or the kingdom of evil, when they disobeyed and bad things happened, they blamed God. Even the New Testament writers lacked some knowledge in completely understanding the conflict between the kingdom of good and the kingdom of evil. After all, the Bible was not written at that point.

Ummm the bible also says God does not change,he is still a jealous god a vengeful god,toddler like.

Today we have the advantage of having the completed Bible and a better understanding of language. While the selections contained in the Bible were not the only ones written during the time of the two Testaments, they contain enough information to enable the human race to overcome evil.
Tell me why is eevil still here if god is all powerful omnipotent and all couldn't he just uncreate evil?

Well maybe God is who creates evil..

Genesis 2:9 reads: "And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5)

Be like God, knowing good AND evil...? So God knows evil as well? Or does this just mean that He knows ABOUT it? I don't think so..

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:22)

(Isaiah 45:7) "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE EVIL; I, the Lord, do all these things."

"The Lord has made all things for Himself, yes, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

In Deuteronomy 32:39"There is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."

In Exodus 4:11,"Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?"

Mark 1:27 says of Jesus, "He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him."

Luke 4:36 says, "With authority and power He commands the unclean spirits and they come out." I


Explain all this Evil God is creating,and in control of And explain to me Why God thought it would be good and gave permission to Satan to torture Job as a loyalty test and a bet with Satan?A bet god made with Satan to see if Job would crack up under torture and curse God.This is evil made by god.

Why are both Lucifer and Jesus the Bright and Morningstar?

Rev 22:16 (NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Isa 14:12-15 (NIV) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

[believerinchrist]

36. Lots of questions and I have answers.

However, I also have to teach this morning (high school English), so I'll try to answer later on this afternoon/evening. There are answers to your questions.

[Zhade]

45. Here's hoping you're just teaching ENGLISH on the taxpayer's dime.

No offense - I don't share your beliefs, and I'd like to think that you aren't going beyond the bounds of your duties.

[believerinchrist]

46. I absolutely just teach English on the taxpayer's dime.

My philosophy is that my life is my testimony. I don't need to preach to any captive audience--I need to live what I believe. My concern in my classroom is that my students learn to become critical, proficient readers and writers. I want them to not be held captive by the inability to understand and evaluate what they hear and read. I also extend compassion, grace, and mercy to them because many have hard lives; yet I do set high goals for them to reach for.

I count my time on DU as a blessing where I can exchange ideas with people who have different experiences than I do. I can understand why many people do not believe in God and I don't blame them, yet I am going to hold on to the work God has accomplished in my personal life

[Zhade]

48. I respect that.

Many would not do as you do.

[believerinchrist]

50. Thanks!

[Random_Australian]

49. Then you are doing what many would not.

That is good of you - in my opinion it shows a great deal of integrity. :thumbsup:

[believerinchrist]

51. Thanks!

[believerinchrist]

42. Better late than never.

I did write an answer when I said I would, but it didn't post--it must be somewhere in the deep, dark recesses of my computer. So, I'll try again.

Your questions are excellent. First, God does not change--our understanding of God is what changes. Of course, the Bible is a progressive understanding of God and that understanding is still changing. Look at science; we aren't holding fast to what people believed about our universe 5000 years ago, are we? Yet, the discoveries that some individuals made during those centuries laid the foundation for our modern scientific thought. In a similar manner, some of what the Old Testament writers shared laid the foundation for the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And, what the New Testament writers shared about their experiences with Christ has laid the foundation for the victory the human race will have over evil.

One of the problems people have with the Bible is the way they view it. Many "Christians" see the Bible as an inflexible set of rules that they are eager to apply to everyone else. Many "Atheists" see it as a bunch of fairy tales. Over the years, I have grown to see it as an anthology of many different writers' experiences with God. Woven throughout the narratives are nuggets of knowledge that when put together create an understanding of God, Christ, Satan, and the human race. The whole purpose of the Bible is to enable whosoever will to overcome evil in his/her own life and to help win the war against the force of that evil. At that point in time, Christ will return and life will overcome death.

Now,as far as God's omnipotence is concerned, did you know that there is only one reference to it in the whole Bible? Revelation 19:6 states "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." God's omnipotence does not come into being until the kingdom of evil is totally destroyed. Then and only then does God become all and all. You see, in order to give His created beings the freedom of will, God could not remain omnipotent, he had to relinquish control. This is why He cannot just step in and unilaterally destroy evil.

You quoted Isaiah 45:7 about God creating evil (do you know how many Christians don't believe that?). It's very simple--in order to give the freedom of will, God had to have an alternative to Himself. For everything that He is, there had to be an opposite for there to be any choice. So, God created evil, death, deception, and darkness by simply removing himself from a "place."

Before the creation of our physical world, there was an angelic creation where those spiritual beings had the same choice between God and evil. Lucifer was the most beautiful angel and he walked with God--he was indeed the morning star. He knew truth, but he became caught up in his own beauty. He decided that he was so beautiful that he should be above all his peers and be like God; in other words, he knew he couldn't rule over God, but he thought he could be like God and rule over his peers. Now, in order to sit next to God, he had to "let go" of God--he let go of truth, light, and life. He, along with the angels he had persuaded to follow him, ended up in the place where God was not. The important things to remember here are that Lucifer (who became Satan) knew and understood truth, and that he had complete freedom of choice (many human beings never experience true freedom because they are held captive by evil all of their lives).

When God created our physical world, He went to the place where He was not--the place of darkness and evil--and spoke "Let there be light!" So, at that point, God invaded Satan's kingdom and created good in the place of evil. Of course, Satan was going to fight back, especially after God gave authority over the new creation to Adam. Satan was subtle--he knew Adam and Eve knew nothing about deception, so he was able to con them. Why didn't God stop Satan? Because He respected His own decision to give the human race the freedom to choose. I know Adam and Eve did not understand their freedom and did not ask God about the validity of what Satan told them (and it was a lie because they did not become like God--yes, they were able to understand the difference between good and evil like God, but they did not have the ability to not be tempted by evil like God has, and they did end up dying). I also believe God knew what He was doing.

Now, Christ came into this world to personally defeat evil and to make a way for his fellow human beings to do the same. While he was here on this earth, he corrected some misunderstandings humans had about God. Instead the ultimate lawgiver and judge, God is a loving father. Instead of expecting believers to attain to religious perfection, God desires believers to love Him with everything they have and to love their neighbors as themselves. Christ also came into agreement with God that the way to defeat Satan and his kingdom of evil was to "allow" them to take his physical life. You see, Satan thought that when he took care of Christ, his problems would be over--he did not understand the love and the power of that love between the Father and His son. While on the cross, Christ made several very important statements. One was "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." Those words broke the chains that held the human race in captivity--Adam and Eve did not understand what they were doing, those Roman soldiers and Jewish religious leaders did not understand what they were doing. God forgave them, just as He forgives every single human being for not understanding. His love is greater than the power of misunderstanding!

Christ also relinquish his relationship with God on the cross. When he released his spirit into God's hands, he gave up the part of himself that made him the son of God. He had received his physical being from Mary, but his inner man was the righteousness of God. This righteousness is what enabled him to overcome evil and to never let go of God before the crucifixion. This is so important because when he did let go, his next words were, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me!" which is the cry of unbelief (sin). Somehow, when he died, Christ became sin and sin lost its power through his death.

It's ironic, Satan wanted to be like God, so he decided he needed to rule over his peers. Christ was like God, but he decided to serve and die for his peers. Satan lost his position as the morning star, Christ gained it.

I could go on, especially about Job, but this post is long enough. I will try posting again fairly soon and share my understanding of Job.

[greyl]

41. I don't think you'll find the support.

Firstly though, Christian or not, humans value their own lives, right? Humans have empathy, and value others lives as well for the most part. The value of human life is literally self-evident, iow.

To that natural state, add Christianity where humans are the very subject of the religion. According to Genesis, humans are the pinnacle of creation, having being made in God's image(how much more valuable can you get?).
I think the strongest evidence that human value is extrinsic in Christianity is that ones value is conditional upon adherence to the Christian faith. Ones life means nothing, if one is not saved.

[varkam]

47. I didn't think I would, either.

I had always thought that human life was valuable because God values us, essentially.

[TreasonousBastard]

37. Two things...

First, the traditional theology is that "man was made in the image of God" and so occupies a special place, and if we start killing each other we are killing God. Sort of. This does start raising questions about God ordering the slaughter of the Canaanites and other divinely inspired warfare, and answering that does get a bit touchy-- the Bible is a continuum and has to be understood as a whole, not just picking out bits and pieces of interest.

More to the point, every mature religion has an ethical system, just as every other philosphy does. While everyone from primitive tribes to great civilizations seems to think killing off the next tribe or empire is a pretty good idea at times, the idea that killing off your own is extrmely counterproductive is universal-- sacrifice of local virgins and such being notable exceptions. So, we have the Ten Commandments, which merely codify and give divine imprimature to what the ancient Israelites already figured out.

But, although some alleged Christians lend far too much importance to the ethos of those ancient Israelites, most of us simply try to listen to the words of Christ, who advised us that love is the primary motivation we should have as his followers. The OT God of war and vengeance was transformed into the NT God of Love. Don't ask how-- that's touchy, too.

So, for most modern Christians, the continuum has gotten to the point that not only are we creations of God in his image and we shouldn't mess with God's work, and that we have souls which separates us from other creatures, but we are commanded to respect each other and treat each other with love, not hatred, fear, and vengeance.

Now, if we could just get everyone to actually live that way...

[undergroundpanther]

38. What about those"Vessels of Wrath?

The Scripture says in Proverbs 16:4: "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion . . . Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth" (Rom. 9:15,18).

And this says to me..if you are not elected via God's capricious will,asa vessel of Mercy..well..God Hates you.

The vessels of wrath "shall have judgment without mercy" (Jas. 2:13), (This is in other words bigoted cruelty,sadism)

but the vessels of mercy have "obtained mercy of the Lord" (I Cor. 7:25; cf. I Tim. 1:16; II Tim. 1:18; I Pet. 2:10).\

And Exactly HOW does one get picked,Doing the "jesus in your heart" ritual? Good works? Christians cannot decide how one is saved really nobody has the answer some favor grace,some favor works,others stocisim self sacrifice,others do a littler jesus in the heart routine and say it's a free gift butt than start pushing"the law" on you..this is why there are so many types of Christian Churches.
Vessels of mercy and wrath reminds me too much of the game of favorites done in Gym Class e in middle school .As in when 2 jock students,the favorites of the Gym teacher were chosen to pick teams. Every time the Jocks picked his Friends and favorites for their own teams until all was left were the un-athletic or outcast kids because they were seen as not worthy of being on any team and so they were humiliated every gym class.And that favoritism of the dominator's it scars people...


The Bible goes on to say...


These vessels of mercy are not saved by their good works, but they are saved "according to his mercy" (Tit. 3:5).

His Mercy? How do you know if he has mercy for you or not? Does he make you rich or powerful and bless you with popularity like the dominionists say or like in the Prayer of Jabez..Or Chicken soup for the Soul? or does he makes your life fall apart at the seams,like he did to Isaiah,Jesus,Or even on a bet with Satan like he did to Job? If latter is so I must be so blessed because my life sucks really bad right now..


They can approach the throne of grace and "obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Heb. 4:16).
Umm That did not work. When I was raped as a kid that was a time of need it went unheard. When I got hit by a car, that went unheard,When I lost my house,that got unheard,When...Prayer does not work when you pray for others too,,like my Aunt she got cancer it killed her,My cat cancer it killed him.. God is capricious in the mercy/wrath game and it is very whimsical and abusive for if he was so powerful you'd think he would make the book of instructions for being a christian CRYSTAL CLEAR. If something as dire as a 'beloved creation' being tortured forever was an issue of importance to God.

Their hope of everlasting happiness is the hope that they "may find mercy of the Lord in that day" (II Tim. 1:18).

What day? Tomorrow?Next Thursday? Five years from now"? Ummm..the day a big comet hits the Earth? When will I know? I know that I wont..The bible does not give any certain answers about salvation other than God just picks and chooses the rest well you get judgment without mercy..Some kind loving god he is....

The reprobates have no right to complain because they were not chosen to salvation but appointed to wrath. God is under no obligation to exercise mercy toward any person.

In other words a tyrant acting on his own whims.

He could have justly left the elect as well as the non-elect to perish in their sins. Had He been pleased to do so, He would have still been the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

Because he is powerful unaccountable to anyone,and would crush you anyway.


The wicked are treated as they deserve to be treated.

Yeah they ASKED for it,god made them exist,he created sin,the devil dark and light ,than made these"reprobates" to exist than to be tormented forever for"gods good pleasure" just because God can..yep Blame the victims and never blame god for creating these people just for god to torment so everyone can see god has an asshole side...

All are ill-deserving and undeserving. None have any claim on God, for His will is the only rule for His mercy.

HIs will is the only rule,a TYRANT.
Titus 2:9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,




God in His sovereignty has power to dispose of His creature according to His good pleasure, either to choose or refuse, according to the counsel of His own will.

Capricious Tyrant.

Job 33:13 says: ". . . for he giveth not account of any of his matters."


Only a Capricious tyrant is accountable to no one..A typical imperial"lord" an abuser of power.

" 'Now as for those enemies of mine who did not want me as their king,
bring them here and slay them before me.' "

"Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
for I am suffering torment in these flames."

N.T. "Out of his mouth came a sharp sword to strike the nations. He (Jesus)will rule them with an iron rod, and he himself will tread out in the wine press the wine of the fury and wrath of God the almighty."

(According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
" If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins. I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

Is this why the Christian Invaders gave the Native Americans Booze and killed them when they came to America? Biblical Command?

Numbers 33:51 "You must drive all the natives of the land before you. If you do not drive the natives of the country before you then those who remain will become disgusting to your eyes and a thorn in your side. They will harass you in the land where you live, and I will deal with you as I meant to deal with them." "Devour the nations the lord your God delivers over to you. Show them no pity."
Ezra 9:10--13 "The land you are invading is foul because of the filthiness of the natives. Their land is filled with filth from end to end because of the foulness of the natives. So you must not marry them or be concerned with their prosperity, so that yourselves may grow strong and eat the best of what the country produces yourself, and leave it as an inheritance to your sons forever. . . Are we to marry the natives? Would you not be provoked into destroying us so that none survived? This is our sin. None can survive in your presence."
Deut. 12:29 "You must keep all the commandments I give you so that you will have the strength to conquer the land you are to enter and make your own."
Deut. 11:8 "Annihilate the nations you are dispossessing and make your home in their country."

Imperialism, Colonialism, Racism.. all is sanctioned by the merciful "love" god.

Are The Native Americans Vessels of Wrath?
Sure looks like Christians treated them that way if you look at history.

[TreasonousBastard]

39. Good grief! So many words and so little understanding...

of what they mean.

As I keep saying, the Bible is a continuum and can't be understood by picking out passages to prove a point-- by either believers or nonbelievers.

Yes, after 2,000 years there are many variations of the religion, which is not at all unusual. Not all Jews, Buddhists, or Muslims agree on all points either.

And, yes, within all those permutations of Christianity there have been perversions and abuses-- we are still human and still subject to human failings no matter what our beliefs, or lack of them, may be.

The basis of Judeo-Christianity is the contract between God and humanity. The terms were set by God, but God agrees to abide by his obligations. The terms of the contract were changed with the arrival of Christ from obedience to the law to divine grace, and we simply disagree amongst ourselves what the fine print is.

[undergroundpanther]

40. My question is simple

If God is Omnipotent,Omnipresent All knowing,knows past,present future ect,ect..

Whhy did he create the world to suffer?
Why did he make sume to be vessels of wrath and others not?

Why do you have to "trust him" when in his book there is stories like Joshua and Job..That make gods' moral character look all too humam and sometimes sociopathic?

You see I don't trust a god that on one hand says one thing and on another says the opposite. I don't trust a god that tells me suffering is somehow good for me when I get no answers as to why.

I am tired weary of this world,of crying into the dark to deaf ears that don't care...because ultimately I am alone.
I tried to believe in god but the followers they hurt me. It hurt me to be cast out when I could not sustain the beliefs as I read more and more of the bible, and "faith" seemed like self delusion after awhile.It became hollow.

To me now,I don't know what god is or is not. I am pretty agnostic bordering on athiestic.The only thing is I know science is limited it is not as sound as scientists say and there is a BIG vast unknown humans haven't even begun to understand yet.Is there spirit? I dunno. I have seen strange phenomena in my life can't explain it. It was real.. BUt..What is it? I dunno.. So My stance is upon Death..is I die like everything does BUT when I die is when I find out what happens.So I wait.

Afterlife? I dunno,Out like a light? I dunno. Dreamless sleep? I dunno.

All I know is I never wanted this life ,I didn't ask to be born but ,here I am, and I wait for it to stop.
There is no comforter,beyond what I can manage to do..
I took Jesus into my heart before ,I was baptized,as an adult. And I got burned for all my earnest seeking.Sometimes I feel like a destined"vessel of wrath".

It hurts. To just admit I do not know.And to wait. But that to me is the only way I can rest in my consience..without fooling myself.

I never asked to be born.I feel like a prisoner here.an alien.

.

[believerinchrist]

43. My heart goes out to you.

In my previous post, I wrote about the things I understand about the Bible. Now, I want to write to you. With everything you have gone through, you have every right to feel the way you feel. Even though it may sound trite, I'm praying for you, standing against the evil that's trying to destroy you, and praying that God will create good in your life so you will experience His love. I've been through some really rough times myself, and what sustained me was God. I called upon Him, cried on His shoulder, and asked Him to help me in my times of trouble.

If I could give you one understanding, it would be that God is not against you, Satan is. Go to God, scream at Him, tell Him it's His fault, ask for help, tell Him exactly what you feel. I have--God is the One who wants us to be honest with Him. He is the One who loves us, and His love is greater than the power of evil.

God, please give comfort, good, and answers in Jesus name.