Were the founding fathers Christians?

[bryant69]

Or to ask it more accurately, which of the following descriptions is closest to describing the founding fathers religious beliefs?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Deists, By and Large

None of the "big guns" believed in the divinity of Christ, I believe. Only Washington went to chuch, but would not take communion.

[reichstag911]

14. I just read...

...that Washington did not go to church, although Martha did.

[jody]

17. Washington was a Vestryman in the Episcopal Church but he never prayed or

took communion.

See "The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents".

[saltpoint]

2. Voted "Deists."

And in any case, they weren't very much at all like Jim Dobson.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

3. Guys like Dobson et al is who they were trying to protect us from.

[saltpoint]

7. You said it. Dobson is one scary guy. A well-dressed psychotic.

[FtWayneBlue]

4. Thomas Paine was a deist,

for sure. Many of the founding fathers were either deist or Unitarian, I would say. The treaty signed with Tripoli in 1796 specified that the United States was NOT a Christian nation.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. Some were Deists, some were Congregationalists, some were

Church of England, some were Catholic, some were even Lutheran or Baptist or Quaker or Mennonite. Different colonies had different predominant religions. The New England states were Congregationalist or Unitarian, except for Rhode Island, which was founded by Baptists, who granted everyone complete freedom of conscience. New York and Pennsylvania had a little bit of everything. Maryland was founded as a haven for Catholics, who were persecuted in England on and off. Virginia and points south were officially Church of England, but had settlers from other areas.

But even the Baptists weren't like the fundies of today. Not even close. I can guarantee that there were no Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell/Jim Dobson types.

[brook]

19. I consider this ancestor of mine a diest...

"Whatever one thinks of Jonathan Mayhew's theology--it was so liberal that the Boston Association of Congregational Ministers would not admit him--no one can deny his influence on the American Revolution. Not only did he preach the sermon that led to the stamp riots, but he preached another which John Adams called "the spark that ignited the American Revolution."

His sermon against knuckling down under an earlier George is one every so-called Christian leader ought to revisit, imho.

[melody]

6. whether they were or weren't, this quote sums up the important point imo

This nation of ours was not founded on Christian principles.
John Adams

[flyingfysh]

8. Deist is the closest description

There were exceptions, of course. Patrick Henry would have been comfortable in most fundamentalist churches of today. But Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine cannot be called Christian.

For eye-opening reading, read "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine. His conclusions about scriptures are much in line with those of modern scholars, but are still guaranteed to offend fundamentalists.

[okasha]

9. Who counts as a founding father?

The signers of the Declaration? The guys who wrote the Constitution? :shrug:

[pnorman]

10. With the exception of John Jay,

all the others were to one degree or other, OUTSIDE of what could be considered mainstream Christianity. And they were frequently denounced as such, by some religious spokesmen of that era.

pnorman

[enlightenment]

11. Unanswerable, as written -- generally, most are lumped

together as Deists, but even the 18th century definition didn't fit all of them. Another problem is that many people in the 18th century - perhaps including the Founders, perhaps not - were unwilling to be completely honest about their position; it simply wasn't politic.
Look at poor Tom Paine, hero of the Revolution, who died a lonely death, scorned by the very people who had revered his ideas -- all because he had the balls to write the "Age of Reason."
Understanding the language, including both the common definition and common utilization of terms,which may have been very different,is crucial to any understanding of the topic. For example, a Deist (with the possible exception of Elihu Palmer - a whole other story) would have found your sub-question "describing the founding fathers religious beliefs" quite odd. The issue for most was Religion and they did not in any way consider religion and faith interchangable terms.

History is just so darn fuzzy!:eyes:

[Double T]

12. The Founding Fathers tried like hell to keep religion out of........

government and politics, BUT believed in an individuals right to practice religion as he/she chooses. The fundies have tried to morph government into SOMETHING that the Founding Fathers KNEW was/would be dangerous. The Founding Fathers supported separation of church and state.

[bryant69]

18. You seem very impassioned on the issue

You should read The Godless Constitution - a book I quite enjoyed.

Bryant

[Double T]

23. I am!!! Thanks for the recommendation.

[nebenaube]

13. they believed in God alright...

The God of Reason not the god of Revelations...

[JDPriestly]

15. Some were. Some weren't. Here is what a couple of them said.

"The idea that God sent Jesus Christ to publish, as they say, the glad tidings to all nations, is consistent only with the ignorance of those who know nothing of the extent of the world, and who believed, as those world-saviours believed, and continued to believe for several centuries (that in contradiction to the discoveries of philosophers and the experience of navigators, ) that the earth was flat like a trencher; and that a man might walk to the end of it." Thomas Paine -- The Age of Reason

Paine was not an atheist. Rather he believed: "That the Creation we behold is the real and ever existing word of God, in which we cannot be deceived. It proclaimeth his power, it demonstrates his wisdom, it manifests his goodness and beneficence."

Here is how John Adams described the religious beliefs of the founding fathers:

"Who composed that army of fine young fellows that was then before my eyes: There were among them Roman Catholics, English Episcopalians, Scotch and American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists, Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans Cocinians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants and House Protestants, Deists and Atheists; . . . Nevertheless, all educated in the GENERAL PRINCIPLES of Christianity; and the general principles of English and American liberty . . . ."

"The GENERAL PRINCIPLES on which the fathers achieved independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young gentlemen could unite, and these principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer."

"And what were those GENERAL PRINCIPLES? I answer, the general principles of Christianity, in which all those sects were united; and the GENERAL PRINCIPLES of English and American liberty, in which these young men were united, and which had united all in America, in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her independence . . ."
VI 150-53 John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, 6/28/1813, Martin A. Larson, Thomas Jefferson, The Essence of Jefferson, 1977, Joseph J. Binns, Publisher

Thomas Jefferson once said:

"One of our fan-colouring biographers, who paints small men as very great, enquired of me lately, with real affection too, whether he might consider authentic, the change in my religion much spoken of in some circles. It is known to my god and myself alone. It's evidence before the world is to e sought in my life. If that has been honest and dutiful to society, the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one."

Thomas Jefferson Letter to Adams written Jan. 11, 1817. The Adams-Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail Adams and John Adams edited by Lester J. Cappon, published 1959 The University of North Carolina Press

[jody]

16. Among the more interesting books, "Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents"

by Franklin Steiner.

The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents (1936)

Note, none of the first ten presidents were Christians although ex-president Andrew Jackson did convert to Christianity before his death as Steiner records.

[MethuenProgressive]

20. Define "Christian"

Modern Christians would be unrecognizable to Christians of the 1700s.

[jody]

21. Suggest you read Steiner's book at the link I gave. n/t

[bananas]

26. From chapter I, it's quite clear that Washington was a Christian. nt

[jody]

29. Please cite the passage that supports your assertion. Among the facts

Steiner gives is the following,
QUOTE
The Rev. Dr. Abercrombie said, "Washington was a Deist." The Rev. Dr. Wilson said, "I think any one who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more." Gouverneur Morris said he no more believed in the system of Christianity than Morris did himself. His intimate friend, Bishop White, who perhaps was the best qualified to judge, denies that Washington ever took communion to his knowledge , though he attended Dr. White's church more often than any other while he was President. He also admits that he never heard Washington utter a word which would indicate him to have been a believer; and what is more, he says he never saw him on his knees during prayer, an attitude all Episcopalians assume when performing that function of religion. The positive evidence, I admit, is meager, but combined with the facts and circumstances to which I have called the reader's attention, it is strong. That he was an evangelical Christian has never been proved and is improbable. That he was a Deist is not inconsistent with any known fact.
UNQUOTE

[bananas]

30. Someone who believes in God and goes to Church is an atheist?

According to your quote, Washington believed in God and went to Church regularly.
Deists believe in God, the same God that other Christians believe in, although they don't believe this all-powerful-being takes an active role in His Creation. You can play semantic word-games about what a "real" Christian is, but the fact is the Deist concept of God is completely derived from Christian concepts. And as far as most people are concerned, anyone who believes in a Christian God and goes to a Christian Church is a Christian.
That chapter is a lot of speculation, and the author admits the evidence is "meager".

[jody]

31. You said "Washington was a Christian". Belief in a divine being does not

mean one is a Christian nor does attending church for political and social reasons make one a Christian.

You seem to imply that either one accepts the orthodox Christian belief or one is an atheist.

Have a nice day and goodbye. :hi:

[Dorian Gray]

32. That directly flies in the face

with what some argue about Adolf Hitler. Despite evidence to suggest that he was involved with Paganism or other rituals, it is because he gives lip service to the Creator and was seen in churches that make people claim that he was a Christian.

I would, however, tend to agree that the evidence shows that Washington's beliefs didn't quite mesh with traditional Christianity, and I would speculate that he was not a true Christian in his heart. I, however, can not fully know if that is the truth, nor can any other poster here. We can look at the sum of the parts, but not truly divine what was in his heart.

[jody]

34. Hitler was a Roman Catholic and apparently reject its doctrine as a young m...

[Dorian Gray]

44. I know that.

I should have posted that as it looks like I was arguing with you. I wasn't, really. My point, which I didn't make very well, was solely that nobody really can know what is in the heart, mind, and soul of others, and our speculation really is all sort of pointless. We can all speculate, but that speculation is colored by our experience, whether negative or positive when it comes to religion.

So, with Washington, I suspect that his spirituality and religious beliefs were much more complicated than either tacking the term Christian or Deist or Atheist to him.

[jody]

45. RE: personal beliefs, agree 100%. n/t

[cosmik debris]

36. Godwin's law in only 32 posts! I wonder what the record is? n/t

[bryant69]

40. Presumably it would be posts that started from a point of

talking about Hitler.

I think there's a point to what is being said here - both Christians and Atheists want Hitler in the other camp, and both Atheists and Christians want the Founding Fathers in their camp - and their relation to Christianity is similar - in that they made public declarations of piety, but privately their relation to Christianity was more complex than those declarations of piety would suggest. Of course Hitler was a deranged mass murderer, and the Founders were far better thinkers and far more moral.

Bryant

[Dorian Gray]

43. Probably one or two. N/T

[bananas]

37. He believed in the Christian God.

The divine being he believed in was the Christian God.

You seem to imply that either one accepts the orthodox Christian belief or one is an atheist.

No, I'm not implying that at all, I don't know why you'd think so.

[jody]

39. Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the God of Abraham. You can only mean...

that Muslims and Jews are Christians.

Pardon me while I :rofl:

[bananas]

41. Do Muslims and Jews go to Christian Churches? No, they don't.

Therefore they aren't considered Christian.
Did Washington go to Muslim Mosques? No.
Did Washington go to Jewish Temples? No.
Did Washington go to Buddhist Temples? No.
Did Washington go to Shinto Temples? No.
Did Washington go walk around naked like a Jainist? No.
Did Washington go to Christian Churches? Yes.

Let's see...he believed in a Christian God...he went to a Christian Church...that would make him...gosh this is a tough question...

LOL :rofl:

[jody]

42. You must read more about religion. I know many people who attend Christian

services but do not accept orthodox Christian doctrine or behave according to the teachings of Jesus, e.g. George W. Bush who refused to meet with the Council of Bishops of the denomination to which he belongs.

Believing in God is not the same as believing in some version of the original Nicene Creed of 325 which was:
QUOTE
I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty Maker of all that is seen and unseen.

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the father, only begotten, that is, from the substance of the father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in Being with the Father.

Through whom all things came into being, things in heaven and things on earth.

Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down and became incarnate becoming man, suffered.

On the third day he rose again he ascended to heaven.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead,

And in the Holy Spirit.

But as for those who say, There was when He was not, and Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostatis or substance, or is subject to alteration or change – those Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes.
UNQUOTE

[Realityhack]

48. Does not follow

Certainly the fact that Washington went to a Christian church is strong evidence that he may have believed in a Christian god. However if there exists other evidence it should be considered as well. We can obviously imagine a reason why he might attend a Christian church without believing in a Christian god.

There exists much legitimate debate on wither Washington can be properly counted as a Christian or as a deist. The argument that 'he went to church and is therefore Christian' is frankly juvenile.

There is evidence that may not have prayed and that some of those who knew him considered him to be a deist. I think there is room for reasonable debate.

[JerseygirlCT]

22. Some yes, some more accurately Deists

Most however belonged (at least officially) to one of the Christian churches.

Official membership doesn't translate necessarily into beliefs, however. And there's variety there.

I think their experiences however, did teach them all about the importance of separating church and state -- and truly, that's the thing that matters.

[Evoman]

24. It was not "cool to be atheist" back in those days...it was down right

dangerous. I wouldn't doubt that many of them were atheists, but were not free to state so. Of course, we can't possibly know this....call it a suspicion. After reading some quotes from the founding fathers....it just seems like stuff that "in the closet" atheists would say. The deists I know, or I am familiar with, aren't so...negative about religion.

However, what else can we do then take them on their word? Those who said they were christians were probably christians. Who knows what goes on inside another man's head?

[CJCRANE]

49. Yes, that's what I've heard.

Deism is considered to be one of the historical steps on the way towards atheism.

[bananas]

25. wikipedia says "the men were mostly Protestants"

"In terms of religious affiliation, the men were mostly Protestants. Only three, C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons, were Roman Catholics. Several were not particularly religious."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

[benEzra]

27. I don't think they were a homogeneous group...

some appear to have been agnostics, some orthodox Christians, some Deists.

[beam me up scottie]

28. Good point.

And they still managed to agree on the importance of secularism in government.

That should be the position taken by ALL liberals, believers and non.

[Dorian Gray]

33. Of course it should be. N/T

[Marie26]

35. What's with all these polls?

Deists, mostly.

[davidinalameda]

38. some were; some weren't

[Dervill Crow]

46. I voted "deists."

Admittedly, I haven't read everything ever written by every one of the founding fathers, but just the wording of what I have read gives me that impression. Maybe I'm projecting, though, because that's the direction my beliefs lie.

[Realityhack]

47. Define founding fathers.

Which ones specificaly as I notice no split option is availible.

Clearly some where diests at best. Others held diffrent bleifs. And some appear to have adopted some religious trappings for political resons.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

50. Christian, mostly, but I'm not sure which, if any, of your adjectives apply.

Although of course saying "The founding fathers believed X" is very silly indeed, given that there were lots of them and they all believed different things.

[pnorman]

51. I was searching on DU for something else, but found this one instead.

Luck hit! It helps greatly with another topic I had in mind.

pnorman

[Az]

52. They were all over the board

Several were Christian. Some were Deists. Quakers and others made up the rest of the crowd. They were not some sort of monolithic group that all believed the same things. And that is why they saw the wisdom of creating a secular government.

[JerseygirlCT]

53. Can't pick one choice for all the founders

they were a mixed bag of Christians, Deists and atheists. One thing they apparently shared was a belief in the separation of church and state, and truly, THAT'S the thing that matters. Or ought to.