SOS to spiritual grownups

[wcepler]

SOS to spiritual grownups:



**********************************************************************

Sometimes in life you have to remind yourself that it's better to speak from the healthy and positive than rant about the unhealthy and negative.



Institutional religion is arguably the most unhealthy and negative force on planet Earth. Once that original transcendental moment gets gobbled up by the religious professionals and theologians, the institution kills the intuition.



More specifically, when the religious institution (and this certainly includes the 3 great western religions of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), presumes to "intervene" in your life and assumes the role of being an intermediary between you and truth or reality (you know, the ultimate stuff), then its game over.



It may be ok for religion to play that game with children, since they need spiritual support and protection, but for adults, all that institutional baggage is just dead weight.



And that's the good news! Religion for adults is an unnecessary luxury. Forget the theologians and priests and sheiks, etc. Who needs 'em? We have life itself to relate to.



Spirituality is the name of this game, and spirituality is in its essence is always one on one. It was one on one for Jesus, Mohamed, and the Hebrew Prophets, just as it was one on one for the Buddha.



It's also one on one for a Zen Master and your grandmother.



Hence, the tragedy of so much of what's now happening on the Earth (e.g., the Middle East cancer), is a conflict between people who have sold their souls to an institutional religion. They have identified their lives with a set of abstract religious game rules. They have their "masters" and rule books and it never occurs to them that what they need is already hard wired into their being.



Such people relate to religion much as an infant relates to a breast. But they aren't infants, and the abstractions they kill for (in the name of God) aren't breasts.



What would our planet be like if all grown ups related directly to life without the arrogant intermediaries of institutional religion? Wouldn't it be like seeing the full, crystal sky without the blockage of clouds?



Said differently, spirituality should never be confused with religion. Ironically, an atheist is simply the other side of the theist coin. They go together and neither have anything to do with pure spirituality.



So, religion is rejected (or transcended) not because it is so terrible, but because spirituality is so wonderful.



Spirituality is all and it lives in immediacy.



Lastly, and sadly, no one ever kills for "their" spirituality, because no one belongs to or has membership in spirituality.



Many, many humans already know these things, and more, but their numbers are still so minuscule that the planet continues to be destroyed by War in the name of God people -- the "righteous" ones, preaching their monotonous, locus-like certainties.



For spirituality God is a metaphor for mystery and war is the acting out of fear.



Life without intermediaries is freedom incarnate. Indeed, it is life itself, and there is no path to this place since we are all already there. Religion is not knowing this.

**********************************************************************

wcproteus



ps: I haven't been a member of this site for very long, but I already think of it as being a kind of family. We certainly have a common enemy, i.e., the Bush/Republican juggernaut. Anyway, in that family spirit, I want you to know I've been doing some soul searching about a piece I recently submitted having to do with Joe Liebermann. It turned out that piece hurt some feelings and upset some people. Naturally, you can't please all the people all the time, but to tell you the truth, that piece was very uncentering and confusing for me to write and I don't think it was one of my better efforts. I'm probably trying to write too much as we approach the election

In any case, I touched on some serious things that are very hard to write about clearly. I now realize that piece needed more homework and it was too much "shooting from the hip". The last thing I want to do is to seem to imply things I totally don't believe. Now more than ever we need to stick together and if it's any help, I'm working to better educate myself about the themes of that piece and I thank you for giving me some passionate food for thought.

But isn't that what's great about such sites? We get to learn from each other and interact IN SPITE OF the Bush/Republicans.

Thanks for indulging my ps.

wcproteus.

[lildreamer316]

1. KICK and...

watch out for the flames, but very well said.
Please think about coming and joining our litte discussion over here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=245

[Jeroen]

2. Beautiful. K&R

[Critters2]

3. Nice piece of flamebait

:eyes:

[Pharaoh]

4. Welcome to DU wcepler

:hi:

you might like the seekers on unique paths group,



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=292

[Freedom_from_Chains]

5. You might enjoy reading

Gregory A. Boyd's "The Myth of a Christian Nation." After years of reading theology Dr. Boyd has at last produced a theology that I think I can support. He has been able to capture the essence of one's spirituality and still keep it in the framework of the church. All others I have read are like you said, just a game of rules and regulations, nothing more.

[badgerpup]

6. K & R...

:hi:
Right with about the difference between 'spirituality' and 'religion'.

Man...so much to say, and don't even know where to start.
Just, thanks for posting that! :hug:

:kick:

[havocmom]

7. Good to meet ya, wcepler. Look forward to reading more from you

Yes, DU is a strange and wonderful place. We fight like the dickens a lot, but anyone with siblings can relate to fighting AND still caring/loving one another.

Most interesting post. I hope you scan some of the smaller, more focused forums. Might find lots of kindred spirits out there ;). And this is a good place to learn and hone one's writing/debating skills, when faced in a positive frame of mind.

Seems like you have that covered.

See ya 'round campus :hi:

havocmom

[Rex]

8. What's a spiritual grown-up? You're making my spiritual child feel

insecure! I know, I'll start with vices and end with religions and see what turns up!

[japple]

9. Hey WC and welcome to DU!

We're quite a diverse group as you can see. Thanks, LilDreamer316 for inviting WC to join our discussion group.

Peace, and if you get singed, aloe vera is a great rememdy!

[me b zola]

10. k&r

[pocoloco]

11. "no religion too" J. Lenon

[bonito]

12. K&R Thanks

[tavalon]

13. Wow, that was some amazing stuff

Don't worry so much about the writing and the fussing of your family. We are as dysfunctional as any family and just as disagreeing but when the rubber meets the road, these people will have your back, if you'll excuse my mixed metaphors.

Heck, I'm not sure if you were here but we made it through another primary season mostly intact. Yay! Now, granted, it wasn't a Presidential primary season, but still, things can get really ugly around here.

[LWolf]

14. Well articulated, and very thoughtful.

Thanks!

I agree, and now I'm going to put on my flame-retardant suit and share where my thoughts went while reading your piece:

Sometimes in life you have to remind yourself that it's better to speak from the healthy and positive than rant about the unhealthy and negative.



Political parties are arguably the most unhealthy and negative force in the U.S., if not on Planet Earth. Once that original democratic moment gets gobbled up by the career politicians and talking heads, and their corporate masters, the institution kills the democratic principles.

[ulysses]

15. nice of you to be so "positive"

:eyes:

[NMDemDist2]

16. it has been my contention for decades that nothing will ruin my

spirituality faster than a visit to organized religion

thanks for posting!

[Norbu]

17. in Buddhism, there is a symbiosis between yogis and monasteries

the yogis are the wielders of "crazy wisdom" and act as the authoritative critics of the hypocrisies and material excesses of organized Buddhism, but they do it playfully, acknowledging the original wisdom of all living beings

[Festivito]

18. Ahhm, well, your ending was good.

The first part seems like a rehash of the inbred hype I've seen on DU. If you really think our problem is organized religion rather than the monied interests of the military industrial complex to whom RepubliCONs have sold themselves -- fine.

But I don't think you do. I think you've just sold out to making cheap friends by rehashing their statements at the expense of some others who tend to be quiet.

Yes, organized religion gets abused. So . does . any . organization: religious, spiritual, business, political, et. al. Take an organization called wealthy family. Offspring is not as bright as moneymaking parent. Hmmm. Grew up important. Must be important. Must be important because was born important.

May not be really bright, but, knows how to cheat well-meaning honest people too busy doing good works to be bothered by a slow person no one would expect to be selling out his country and/or countrymen. Opps. Look. He's buying a Congresscritter. Look his son joined the CIA. Look his cousin is appointed a judge for life. Grandad helped WWI Germans with train parts. Dad helped WWII Germans with banking. (Got away without a scratch, although his bank was cited and shut.) Why, don't call it selling-out, call it capitalizing on stupid do-gooders who are pollyanish and think the world is a nicey nicey place. Lookey, we bought a governorship and two presidents. Family's doing well thanks.

Perhaps you'd like to trash family as an organization.

It would be right up your alley.

[GeorgeGist]

19. What part of ...

Spiritual faith do you not understand?

[Festivito]

34. What makes you think that I don't understand some part of it? /nt

[cosmik debris]

20. You use the word spirituality several times

So I hope you don't mind me asking. What does that word mean?

I have seen it used in relation to quartz crystals, ghosts, astrology, and recently it was used regarding Al Gore's movie. I haven't got a clue what "spirituality" means. Can you help me out here?

[Evoman]

21. That makes two of us bub.

Some people point to my hobby of hiking and my wonder at the processes of nature as spiritual. I don't think of it that way at all...I'm just curious, and I like to walk in fresh air, lol. I really don't GET spirituality...especially when people substitute god with other meaningless stuff like chakras and univeral energies and psychic interconnectiveness hehe.

[cosmik debris]

22. I just noticed that Mr. Epler has not responded to anyone here.

I guess he is just going to preach and run like the lotus feet swami.

[cyborg_jim]

23. Seems to be

defined as having an emotional reaction to an event - except people who consider themselves spirtual feel the need to bang on about and construct whole systems about it it whilst I'm quite happy just to experience it and then get on with things.

[wcepler]

24. reply

It's a little like poetry and love. It's something you experience, not define.

[cyborg_jim]

25. I don't subscribe to that

And why can't it be like poetry and hate?

[cosmik debris]

26. In other words

It is bogus bullshit that you made up to sound superior. But it didn't work because you got called on it and now you have to make up some more stuff to cover you idea that "feel-good" words are a good substitute real ideas. Nice try, try again.

[Vidar]

43. First you try to call him on not replying. When he does, you

resort to bitter name-calling. I don't need your type of negativity in my life. Onto ignore you go.

[cosmik debris]

45. I'm so lucky

And from reading other threads, I see that I am in good company!

[beam me up scottie]

48. Oops, I was going to invite you but I see you're already a member!

Here's to being on Vidar's ignore list :toast:

[immoderate]

61. Spitituality is...

FEELINGS

Feelings, nothing more than feelings,
trying to forget my feelings of love.
Teardrops rolling down on my face,
trying to forget my feelings of love.

Feelings, for all my life I'll feel it.
I wish I've never met you, girl; you'll never come again.

Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,
wo-o-o, feel you again in my arms.

Feelings, feelings like I've never lost you
and feelings like I've never have you again in my heart.

Feelings, for all my life I'll feel it.
I wish I've never met you, girl; you'll never come again.

Feelings, feelings like I've never lost you
and feelings like I've never have you again in my life.

Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,
wo-o-o, feelings again in my arms.
Feelings...(repeat & fade)

- Morris Albert

--IMM

[Random_Australian]

27. A question - would you clarify what you think of atheists?

[wcepler]

28. reply

Random_Australian

I'm assuming you're asking this question in good faith, so here's a ballpark answer. These aren't "pronouncements", they're just the intuitions of this life.

That's a toughie. Come to think of it, most of my friends are atheists. I respect atheists, but I think sometimes they throw the baby out with the bathwater. I share their indifference to institutionalized religion (like most of the earlier posts in this thread), but since I don't equate religion with spirituality, that's really of no consequence. I have many professional scientific friends and colleagues and practically all of them are atheists.

This is really off the cuff, but you see I don't see spirituality and science as being either/or. Maybe that's a kind of new spirituality, 3rd millenniaish.

Spirituality for me isn't anything esoteric or weird. It's just (insofar as we can) seeing it like it is. Seeing things like they are changes us. The "seeing" is a kind of metamorphosis (I always have to use spellcheck for that word). I realize for some people this doesn't compute and that's fine with me. I'm not pushing anything. Seeing it like it is is it's own reward. Others can believe and live as they wish and God speed to them.

Anyway, the only atheist I have trouble with is and anti-theist. It's a pity if you have to define who you are by what you oppose or hate.

I hope this off the cuff answer works for you.

Best wishes, wcproteus

[NMMNG]

35. Welcome to DU wcepler

:hi:

Anyway, the only atheist I have trouble with is and anti-theist. It's a pity if you have to define who you are by what you oppose or hate.


What you are describing is not a type of atheist, but a maltheist. An atheist would never be "anti-theist" because s/he either lacks belief in gods or actively claims they don't exist. It would make no sense to "oppose or hate" something one does not believe in.

[Vidar]

44. Buffy, I increasingly appreciate you, Random Australian &

those other atheists who don't feel it necessary to attack all theist beliefs and believers. There is far too much unnecessary divisiveness on this board already.

[NMMNG]

55. You're quite welcome

And I agree about the obscene level of divisiveness. :-(

[beam me up scottie]

56. That's kind of funny coming from him.

And by funny I mean hypocritical.

Vidar's been taking potshots at us for months. At least he's finally outed himself in this forum.

I'd be honored to make his ignore list.

[NMMNG]

57. Color me ignorant

I've been largely away from this forum for months and had never heard of him until now. :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

58. No, you're fine.

He likes you and he should.

I'm just jealous because both Evo and cosmik made the list today, and I didn't.

I'm really hoping I'll get the third slot, though.

I'm an unreasonable atheist too. :D

[Evoman]

59. I thought I was the reasonable one.

Jeez. And I even apologized for crossing a line. Then I get ignored. Who would want to ignore little ol' me *flutters eyelashes*

[Vidar]

69. Apology accepted. Sorry I missed it.

[beam me up scottie]

72. I thought you had him on ignore too? It's like being censored by a fundie.

"But I just HAD to watch that filthy porno movie twenty times so that I could tell my followers how vile it was!"

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

71. Atheists by definition are unreasonable if you're a believer.

Calling us that is supposed to hurt and offend us I think.

Too bad magical words and being put on ignore lists (oh the horror!) don't even register on our Offend-O-Meter.

[Vidar]

66. You've been on my "ignore" list for rudeness for months, bmus.

Had a hunch this would be you, so I checked.
I have no problems with polite atheists who don't proselytize. After rejecting organized religion, I was an atheist for a number of years, before changing to what would probably be called a "weak theist" position. I do not try to convert others to my beliefs, nor do I suggest other beliefs are silly, irrational or grounds for hell. I do become quite angry when others do so, as several Mormons that I've physically thrown off my property can attest Beliefs or non-beliefs are ultimately a personal choice which should be respected, except when they are inflicted upon others.

[beam me up scottie]

67. You took me off your ignore list so that you could read my post?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Vidar]

68. Your typical classy reply reminds me why i should put you back.

[beam me up scottie]

70. oooooooooo, I just beat Evo and cosmik!

I got put on it twice!

:woohoo:



Now if you take me off again to read this post, perhaps you can explain why this is supposed to upset me.

[Evoman]

36. Whats "the baby" I'm throwing out?

I hear this often..."throw the baby out with the bathwater", but I'm still not quite sure what I'm supposed to be throwing out when I toss religion out of my life. What exactly am I missing out on? I'm happy, content with my life (although right now I'm writing my thesis which is a pain in the ass)...in general, I've never found my life purposeless or like there is something missing. What exactly would religion give me that I am missing?

God? Don't need it.

Moral lessons? Already got em, don't need religious ones.

Answers about the universe? I can get better answers from science...religion has nothing of significance to add.


What could anybody possibly want from religion?

[cyborg_jim]

39. I don't get it either

I am not big on these wishy-washy notions, the whole concept of 'spirtualism' is a farce as far as I'm concerned.

[Random_Australian]

46. Given that Buffy has told you about the maltheists, I just need to add

that all things bieng equal, that when you talk of "seeing things as they are" and "for some people this does not compute", just remember the possibility that it is not the spiritual seeing things as they are, but the atheists. Or... perhaps not. We don't quite know yet.

Anyway, thanks for the response. When you were saying "religion bad spirituality good" and then said "atheism is the flip side of theism", it was very unclear whether it was the flipside of religion or of spirituality. Thanks for clearing that up, and for not turning out to be an anti-atheist weirdo.

[immoderate]

62. It would be a good thing to realize...

That EVERBODY thinks that they see "things like they are." Everybody!
When has anybody told you that their perceptions are deluded? :shrug:

--IMM

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Religion at its best is full of genuine spirituality, and it offers something

that the solitary spiritual practitioner cannot, namely a sense of community and the strength of the like-minded working together.

I just came from my church's weekly dinner for homeless and low-income youth. About eight to ten of us come in every Monday to cook and serve a hot dinner with a choice of vegetarian and meat-based entrees and side dishes. Afterwards, the youth can go to our drop-in center, staffed by other volunteers, for the rest of the evening. (Another group of volunteers runs a daytime drop-in center for the homeless of all ages.) We servers pray before serving, but once the youth come in, we don't preach to them or even offer grace, just food and a little friendly conversation.

Other churches in the neighborhood feed people on other nights of the week.

We had a rummage sale over the weekend to help raise money for the feeding programs, and the participants in our meal programs were given vouchers for a free sack of clothing of their choice from the sale.

Also on Monday evening, in the same building, are the rehearsal of a community choir open to everyone and a Eucharist offered for those who need physical or emotional healing.

That's just one weekday. Every other weekday has a similar schedule of social programs, worship services of different types, study of theology or current issues, artistic opportunities, and just plain socializing. However, unlike the fundies, we're not a closed community and are all involved with the larger world as well.

I've never found anything to beat the multi-faceted sense of community that you get in an active and healthy church.

Some people are called to be spiritual solitaries, but for most of us with religious inclinations, community is the essence of spirituality. The energy that flows through a space when everyone is in the same spiritual groove is a rare miracle and astonishing and wonderful when it happens.

[wcepler]

31. comment

This is beautiful and I agree with it all. My only reservation is that this is all in some sense "in spite of" the institution. It's more the by product of people with shared values and kindness.

The same thing is true for marriage. The "institution" of marriage is totally meaningless. If the bond is there and the love is there (and children, of course), then it works, but the social/religious institution is completely meaningless -- unless you believe in sacraments, which I don't.

It all comes back to one one one. One on one with life, or one on one with anther person. All the legal/social/religious accoutrement's are the tail being wagged by the dog. We don't need the institutions, the institutions need us.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. But the institutions provide the venue and the

organizational framework for things to happen.

My church has been around for over 100 years, and it has provided not only the building where things can happen but an organization (actually, it acts as an umbrella for a lot of activiteis) and a means of publicizing and financing these activities.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Define "religion" for me, Proteus

Because I'm completely uncertain about what you've written.

To me, religion is a vehicle. A means, not an end. It's fellowship, community (much like this place, only IRL, lol). My denomination doesn't mean it dictates a great deal -- but rather offers a great deal up for thought. It's an evolving thing, organic. The idea of the "church" (not the building, but the people) is alive, always adjusting, changing, learning. For me, it brings intellectual stimulation, emotional support and spiritual companionship.

So when people talk about the great evils of religion, I'm always mystified. So tell me, first, how you define the term. Then maybe I'll understand where you're coming from.

[wcepler]

32. response

Gee, I don't think I can, but I should give it a shot, shouldn't I?

Religion (for me) is something like the "outer covering" of spirituality. The extreme definition would be the forms, i.e., the buildings, books (including "holy books"), and rules and definitions, etc., as opposed to (for the lack of a better way of saying it), the mystical experiences. What Buddha experienced wasn't "Buddhism", that came later when things got socialized and formalized. The essence of Buddhism is an experience, not a church or institution (in any sense of the word).

It seems to be the core of any religion is a "this life" experience. A life that explodes into realization and awakening. But I don't want to say this only in Eastern terms. That's missing the point. It is life itself that stops identifying with a conditioned identity. It is the self experiencing of life, not an individual who "achieves" something. It's beyond all that.

Anyway (again speaking for myself -- even though there isn't any "myself"), the "religion" word somehow misses all this and has the sense of a social construction. The evolution and growth that you talk about I'll have to think about. That's a lovely way to put it and I can feel my way into that more than the institution thing. And that is really what any institution is (abstract or otherwise). It's a "thing", not a mystery. It's calcified and in the past.

But immediacy is reality and it's too "fast" to be captured by concepts or institutions, which is what religious institutions try to do.

Well, I'm all over the place with this, and I don't think I really answered your question. Maybe religion is more like a continuum which shades from the institutional thing (literally) to identyless experience. The problem is that the world usually gets stuck with the forms and rules and concepts.

But eventually life get bored with all that and transcends identity and there's no path to that place.

Sincerely, wcproteus

[JerseygirlCT]

37. Calcification is certainly a danger for any institution

No doubt. And that goes way beyond religious institutions, too.

But support is perhaps the other side of that coin. A bit of structure can be a good thing, a helpful thing. Perhaps when the institution functions as a framework, or support, on which one can develop one's spirituality, that's a good thing. I also can't discount the huge value (to me at least) of community.

Bottom line is probably balance -- and being watchful for institutions that cease to be agents of growth and become ends in themselves.

[Vidar]

38. Welcome to DU, wcepler. The distinction between spiritiuality

and religion is one of my favorite aspects of the 12 step tradition.

[wcepler]

40. comment

Vidar,

I have great respect for the 12 step tradition. I especially like that is self directed by the participants. It's not something that "does something to you". It's a collection of usually suffering people opening their hearts to each other, and ANYTHING is possible when people do that. It also doesn't require any "theology". I have attended many 12 step meetings and I came away thinking, "Oh, THIS is how you relate to people emotionally and spiritually!" I loved those meetings. It also showed me that only the most hate gorged personal is not respectful and empathetic when someone opens their heart and bares their vulnerability.

You see think that's was Jesus Christ taught the world. Trust your vulnerability more than anything else in life. Honor it, express it, and share it. To me, Jesus was vulnerability incarnate.

best, wcproteus

[Vidar]

42. It comes as no surprise that you've shared in this experience.

This thread is easily the best I've read on this bitterly divided forum, & each of your posts reinforce my impression.

[Desertrose]

41. "Spiritual grownups"...I love it!

Great great post, wcepler....and welcome to the *DU religion forum* .

I agree that when the time comes ( and it will) that religion must be given up - I actually like the term you used better,"transcended", it will indeed be difficult for many to do, but it must be done. Religions as they are now, are merely institutions that are all about control and nothing about Spirit.

Really a lovely post . I like the way you think.

DR

[wcepler]

47. spiritual dialog (the whole is greater than the sum of the parts)

DR,

I have learned so much from so many of the questions and comments. It's as if we're having a 12 step meeting in cyberspace.

I keep thinking of Socrates and the "Socratic method", which is basically to plunge into questions and dialog learn about the real.

Several of you folks have shown me that there's more to religion and an institution. Alas, my concern is that most allegedly religious folk are so identified with the institution aspect of religion that they're will to kill for it (and are doing so as we speak!). Their groundedness is fear and people in the grip of fear can be righteous monsters. Their "righteousness" (and hate) gives everything away.

In vulnerability there's no righteousness or theology. What's there is MORE real and more healing.

Even in this dialog there has been healing in my life.

I hope the same is true for you, since God knows, we all need healing.

wcproteus (Bill)

[beam me up scottie]

49. Not sure what you're trying to say but glad you're here to say it.

The more liberals the better.

Having said that, I have no idea what you mean when you use the word "spirituality" and therefore cannot agree or disagree with your statement that I don't have any.

And don't you think it's a tad bit impolite to tell atheists what they do or don't have?

[wcepler]

50. Hey, common ground at last!

Look, I'm wrestling with all this stuff myself and I've shared a lot of my intuitions (and confusions) earlier in the thread (including about spirituality). Believe me, if I didn't open my mouth until I was certain I had it all straight, I'm not sure I'd say anything. So I just dive into the soup and hope for the best.

And atheists have my full respect. The last thing I want to do is "categorize" that view. As I said earlier, most of my friends and colleagues are atheists and I TOTALLY honor that view. This is tricky to talk about, but its just that I feel more rapport with a science grounded atheist than someone who is just "anti theist".

And a thousand amens to "the more liberals the better". Boy do we EVER have a common enemy and it's now or never time to hang together and VOTE, VOTE, VOTE, VOTE, VOTE.

Anyway, thanks for your comment. I suspect we really do have 20 times more things in common than not.

cheers, proteus

[beam me up scottie]

51. Oh we have lots of common ground.

I'm sure of it.

This uppity atheist is a little more touchy than many others though, possibly because I live and work in fundy hell.

If your statements are part of an effort to understand your own thoughts and/or those of others, post away.

I won't take offense if none is meant.

And welcome to DU and the Arena. :)

[wcepler]

52. reply

Oh my God, you're "surrounded" by fundies! Augggh. Now that's hard core.

And you have my word that no offense is intended. I'm just grouping my way through the fertile void like everyone else.

I keep trying to figure out some magic message I can write to make sure:

(1.) all the dems get out there and VOTE

(2.) (more difficultly) all their votes get counted

but I guess all we can do is hope that the vote does get out and that when (not if) we're positive the vote has been stolen, we'll let loose 17 shades of hell to make it right.

Did you ever in your wildest dreams think these last 6 years could have happened? My God, what we've lost. Time to TAKE IT BACK and SAVE THE PLANET.

proteus

[beam me up scottie]

53. Never.

My dad tried to warn me back in the 80's about the dominionists' plans and I scoffed at the thought.

Did you tell everyone you know to go to http://www.canivote.org/ to make sure they're registered?

The republicans "purged" thousands of voters in my state this year. They were ordered to put everyone back on the rolls but it's better to find out now than on election day.

[wcepler]

54. thanks

I will pass that site on at once. In fact, I'll check it myself. Thanks.

[Random_Australian]

64. wcepler,you are a nice person.

I just thought I'd say that after reading this little exchange - conversation without acrimony is something that is welcome, and of course the spirit and idea to get the republicans out of power is welcome too.

:)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

60. "Non-institutionalised religion" is at least as silly as "institutionalised"

It hasn't been responsible for as much harm, just because it's harder for one person to achieve anything for good or bad, the basic reason religion and "spirituality" are wrong - that they're not true - is just as true of unique belief systems as of wider ones, and usually more so, because they haven't been prodded at so much.

Christianity and Islam may be false, but at least they make meaningful claims about the universe that could, in another universe, be true. Most "personal spiritual systems", in my experience, are just meaningless waffle from people trying to sound profound and tolerant.

[Zhade]

63. "It may be ok for religion to play that game with children" - I disagree.

IMHO, that's a from of child abuse - children should not be melded to believe or NOT believe in gods.

They should be left to make their own decision in that matter, either way.

[wcepler]

65. reply

Actually, I was a little sloppy about how I put that. I totally agree with leaving it up to them.