How did you "arrive at" your god?

[immoderate]

This post comes from an exchange I had with Kwassa in another thread. We each had our views, and that stirred my curiosity, so I decided to go to the people themselves. I don't want to prejudice the answers so I'll go light on the preliminaries. Fundamentalists generally take their god directly from scripture, heavily moderated by their pastor or other authority figure, and there aren't too many of them around DU, so they're not the target of this thread.

In my conversations with theists here, I've noted that there are wide variations in the concept of god. So I'm curious as to what influences account for that. What internal and/or external sources influenced you? I'm sure that this could be collected from various threads, (such as Randon_Australian's opus thread) and there may even be a thread just like this in the archive, but I wanted to get the current view from the people here now. What part of your conception is internal or external? What kinds of materials did you consult? Who or what influenced you? How did you decide what aspects comport with your faith?

This is aimed primarily at liberal theists, but I expect that atheists and agnostics will have some input or reaction too. I guess I should caution you all to "keep it clean" but at the same time I should remind people that over sensitivity and thin skinnedness stifles some of the robust response that makes this place so much fun, not to mention enlightening.

I'll suspend my own views until later in the thread, assuming it develops. OK, discuss...

--IMM

[longship]

1. Education!

The more I've become educated, the more I've come to the conclusion that there is no god, not of any kind.

[BOSSHOG]

2. Father Conway and Sister Martha Marie by force

I was born Catholic and in that democracy I was given the choice - Altar Boy or Choir Boy. I chose to be an Altar Boy and under the tutelage of Father Conway learned to say the Mass in Latin, however our actions were merely Pavlovian, knowing what to mumble when certain bells were wrung. We never did learn what we were saying (in English.) And Sister Martha Marie was the terrorist in the classroom (this was back in the early 60's.) You learned Catechism or else. I left the local church three years ago because I was sick and tired of the hate and vitriol coming from the pulpit.

I don't see much love coming from organized religion now adays so I just avoid them. I chit chat with God but our relationship is extremely laid back. I'm a law abiding, tax paying citizen, a non criminal and a wonderful neighbor. Despite not going to any church once a week I think I'm a mighty fine Christian.

[trotsky]

17. From what I've seen in your posts, BOSSHOG,

you're one of the best examples of a Christian I know.

[BOSSHOG]

20. Thats very kind of you

I tend to cuss too much, but my heart is in the right place when it comes to justice (I think.)

[JerseygirlCT]

3. I was raised with religion

but, always, an openminded, and open-hearted type. Twelve years of Catholic school were not uniformly that, but the messages that stuck, both from my parents and from my education, were fairly liberal. (And comparing notes with friends and classmates, I'm not alone).

Once outside the safety of my home parish, however, I saw much more ugliness and restriction. My more expansive view of God was challenged by people with a need to box God up. My sense of right and wrong was fatally challenged by a religion that treats women as second-class citizens.

I stopped practicing at all, but felt lost. Finally found a community and church home with the Episcopal church. And there, my ideas are often challenged, but in the best way -- by others who are actively seeking answers and working through their thoughts. All of which is completely encouraged, instead of discouraged. There are probably as many ideas of what God means as there are people. And that's to the good, and I think, by divine design. Or we'd all have been created pretty much the same.

It's a human struggle I think to avoid categorizing and neatly putting God away in a box. It's harder to keep fighting those walls. But I think it's necessary if you are to believe.

[SPKrazy]

39. God Doesn't Go Well In A Box

I always like the way you put things JGCT

I can't box up my ideas of God, because they are just too ethereal to put in anything.

I have a hard time putting them in the vessel of a human being too at times.

On the other hand, I see the best of what I believe in God as being in humans.

I also see the worst that there is at times in humanity in the form of fear and intolerance- leading to violence and oppression.

So your ideas and your story above is interesting.

Thanks for sharing it!

[Liberal Jesus Freak]

4. Interesting.

I like your idea of being on a path and arriving at a destination. But aren't we all always searching for and refining our definition of God? I am currently at "jesus" on my path--I don't know if I'm through or not.

[Sinti]

5. I died, moved onto the next life momentarily,and came back

When I gave birth to my son my heart stopped - rough surgeon, blood loss, weak heart. I stepped out of my body and kind of crossed a barrier - it was beautiful. No long tunnel for me, though. I waited in line with a lot of other folks, and got to talk to "god". God "sent me back," with a very different state of mind.

Prior to this experience I was a Catholic, trying to live in the "divine light" - you wake up and pray that god will use you this day to improve the lives of others. After this experience I am a deist - I believe there is a god, but I haven't the intellectual capacity to understand exactly what "god" is - so I focus on the here and now.

[GeorgeGist]

6. God comes to me...

via my soul.

[Finder]

7. I was tempted to ask this question too, since...

it seems the definitions of belief in deity(ies),religion,and spirituality are lumped as one thing leading to many misunderstandings in discussions.

[Mythsaje]

8. I don't believe in absolutes...

I was raised nominally Christian. Attended several different churches growing up, mostly of my own volition. I took separate bible study classes (again, of my own volition) and tried to learn as much as I could about this faith.

At the same time, of course, I was reading everything else I could get my hands on. By the time I was out of grade school I'd read Tolkein, and L'Engle, and so many more authors with a philosophical bent.

In JR. High I read Dune, and that was the real beginning of my questioning of it all. Religion and religious sentiment is SO easily manipulated.

Now, I've had several experiences that make it impossible for me to disbelieve in things beyond our current understanding. I know things I couldn't possibly know by normal means, and I've literally seen things seconds before they've happened. Saved my ass a few times, actually. So I know there's more than the material world we perceive.

I stumbled through a series of religious phases, including Wicca and Shamanism, though, in the end, neither of these answered the questions I have. There are certain things I simply cannot accept as Truth. I can't accept the notion of a single, anthropomorphic deity, much less several of them. I can, perhaps, choose to perceive them as some sort of Jungian archetypes, but I know a host of people who actually believe they exist independently of our collective consciousness. Several years ago, after I lost the mother of my children, and then my children in a vicious custody dispute, I found myself desperately seeking some way to handle the pain it put me through.

I stumbled into Taoism. Since a major premise of this particular philosophy is acceptance of the things you cannot change, and the realization that change, in general, is a major part of the universe that we have little choice but to accept.

But Taoism isn't where I ended up. It, again, required me to take for granted assumptions I wasn't willing to make.

In the end, after everything, I'm left with a couple of perceptions. The only "beings" greater than ourselves that we can actually verify are our planet and the universe itself. But, as the only apparent sentient beings of which we're currently aware, we have an obligation to use our sentience to the benefit, not detriment, of everything with which we share this world and universe...including one another.

That's it in a nutshell. More or less.

[Mabus]

9. It's all mom's fault

She was my moral compass and the biggest influence I had as a child.

She taught me that we are all capable of both personal and social spirituality. She taught me that my personal spirituality was rooted in my personal perception of my world. She taught me that social spirituality occured when people of same or similar belief systems gathered in the same place whether it was a Christian Church or a Sun Dance. She taught me to see beauty in things. She taught that there were no wrong or bad religions but there were people who misued their religious beliefs. She taught me not to ignore the ugliness that man does especially when he does it to the helpless or defenseless. She taught me to think in terms of the greater good more than personal reward. She taught me that there are many ways to the ultimate spiritual center and she encouraged each of us kids to seek the path that was right for us. My mother practiced her Arapaho traditions as passed down to her with some modifications. I have done the same. My core beliefs remain and I practice them everyday to the best of my ability because of my mom. It's all her fault.

[Finder]

10. You have a great mom. n/t

[Mabus]

12. Had

Physically she's been gone just over 10 years. She lives on through those whose lives she touched. But thanks. She was a great mom, most of the time. What's really funny is I have nine siblings. Each of us would swear we were mom's favorite. I don't know how she did that.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

29. Have

She lives on in you.

[kwassa]

11. I was on the road to Damascus

only in my case it was Interstate 70, and I was driving across the country alone. A feeling began stirring inside as I drove across the Great Plains, big sky country, and continued to build as I drove through the high Rockies, through canyons and desert plateaus. It is hard to describe that feeling, except that I felt in total union and connectedness with nature and the universe. It was quite overwhelming

Words always fail in trying to describe a full spiritual experience, as they are simply inadequate.

This was a starting point, but it was the point that I came to believe in God, though his exact nature is up for grabs, and still is. I felt totally connected and in his presence. I have had many such experiences since that time.

Many life experiences led me to this point, including long struggles with persistant and chronic problems in career and relationships which caused me to look deeply within myself. I came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity, and it did. This is a 12-step saying, of course the first step, and that program is really a very wise framework for spiritual exploration.

Other influences: the Church of Religious Science, which is Christian mysticism, and where I learned to pray. Readings from many books, both in the area of psychology and religion. Joseph Campbell, Karen Armstrong. Some exposure to Eastern religious practices, including meditation. Retreats. Involvement in men's groups. New, and much healthier relationships. Psychotherapy. They all connect.

Small local joke: a small town to our north is named Damascus. I refer to the road to Damascus as Route 27.

[TygrBright]

13. Observation. Reflection. Exploration.

It started becoming an issue for me when I was in my 20s. Until then I'd more or less ignored the whole thing although I knew perfectly well what WASN'T God... the Cosmic Thunderer/Hairy Muffin model promulgated by those who would apply the techniques of over-simplification and rote instruction to indoctrinate the young.

I did start asking a few questions in my teens, but there wasn't anyone around whose answers made sense. In my 20s my sister invited me to a Quaker meeting and I began constructing hypotheses and testing them.

When I "arrive," I'll let you know, assuming I'm still capable of communicating.

thoughtfully,
Bright

[Random_Australian]

14. I don't suppose anyone will mind me saying how I arrived at my beliefs...

Basically, raised in a household that was non-religious, friends mostly the same but with a large section of exceptions - devout theists everywhere!

Anyway, took a look at religion, became agnostic, started reading the Bible, was moving closer and closer to belief....

then read Psalm 14:1, and was able to work out HOW such a book could be written without divine intervention. Or more literally, I sort of went "Hello, hang on, this author is HUMAN!".

Became an atheist. Later, became an implicit atheist. Now I am implicit or explicit depending on which God I am talking about. (Actually, I think in terms of effective existence = portion information modified * probability of existing)

[immoderate]

15. Some great stuff here...

I wanted to wait a bit before I got my thoughts in here. I'm a Jewish atheist. Many here know my views. I just never bought into the supernatural, but I think nature itself is super. Bagels are real good too. I call that my spiritual side. Spirit, BTW comes from a word that means breath. I know that we are more than machines, but it is in the same way that a house is more than a collection of bricks, wood and glass. It's the arrangement of things that makes the whole more than the sum of its parts. Put somebody through a wood chipper and they may still weigh the same but they will be somewhat, um, disorganized. That organization is the "miracle" of life.

What prompted this thread was a recognition that there are as many gods, or views of god as there are people. I think that god for each of us is a projection of our idealized self. I also think that god exists within the world view that's in each of us, rather than being an entity that is "out there." That's why I believe that god is so often an expression of what we see as the ultimate love or beauty or goodness in the universe. But I think it always comes back to being something that is constructed in our imagination, and not always conscious. There's the latent Freudian in me leaking out.

So thanks for the responses I got and the ones to come. This makes for some interesting reading.

--IMM

[Chulanowa]

16. Study and random chance

I was one of those poor souls that went through a variety of religions - Or at least the motions of it. I studied one after the other, and somehow, animism "clicked" in my head. So I went out with a drum and gave it a try.

I don't know if any person has ever felt such a sense of release - I certainly haven't, sense. I had figured I was going to sit in the woods, bump this thing a few times and feel like a stooge and go home after a few minutes.

I spent the next five hours dancing around, covered in leaves and sweat, playing out every sensation through a homemade drum (thick cardboard and study plastic sheeting), just feeling wave after wave of energy wash over me.

It's still there. I can be standing in line at the bank and suddenly get the urge to dance and chant. It's boogie fever, baby ;) When I manage to let myself go, it almost always winds up with me on hte ground sobbing out of pure joy.

Now it's not quite "god"... that's a totally different thing. But I suppose it's the experience you're asking for :)

[immoderate]

18. Don't try that on line at the airport!

You paint a beautiful picture.

My contention is that god is an aspect of personality, and as individual as handwriting. This kind of negates the notion that god is an entity that exists outside of the individual. so what I'm exploring here is how much people are aware of how they constructed their god. I know this disturbs some of the more theistically inclined.

I also know that part of this is subconscious and people would be no more aware of how they got there than how they arrived at their favorite flavor of ice cream, or why they prefer polka dots to plaids, etc.

Some may accuse me of trivializing, and I'd retort that you can't.

--IMM

[bloom]

26. The picture

- god/goddess as an "aspect of one's personality".

I think it's interesting that so many people feel connected to "god" is when they are out in nature - though some people feel more connected in a crowd.

I think it is a matter of being connected to life - connecting one's own life (which could be seen as "personality" or "soul") to the life all around - and to the universe. I think it is taking everything that you have learned - that which clicks with you - and helps give meaning to your life - and basically being happy to be alive and connected to the larger world in a way that uses ones mind and emotions.

Some people call that "god" or "goddess" - some people don't call it anything. I don't know if some people do not acknowledge it - or don't experience it - or what. Since some people see "God" as a force which controls them and their life - as described by organized religion - this idea seems to get lost in our culture/overlapped together.

I suppose some people don't love life and some people never learned to express it if they did. I think that the expression can bring out the sense of it more.

Some people, like Chulanowa, have figured out how to connect with this sensibility and to express it through drumming in the woods. Others go frolicking in the woods with people who love life in the same sort of way that you do.

Einstein referred to "Cosmic religious feeling" and I think that he was talking about this same sort of thing. He also acknowledged the importance of art.

A lot of people see art - or at least some kinds of art - maybe the better art - as expressing this sensibility. It can come in the form of art by Mozart or Jackson Pollock or Mary Oliver. In our culture - it can seem that the poets and musicians express this for us - people defer to their voices. Thus we have people recreating the music and the retelling of poetry/stories.

That is where we have the overlapping of art/religion - the creation of rituals. Native Americans and other groups had their community dances/drumming and their stories. It gives people an opportunity an avenue of expression of life and what it means to be alive.

A lot of western culture encourages people to be so stiff and self-conscious.

This desire to express this sensibility might explain groups like the Pentecostals who run around and express joy in church. Church is the place where they have been given the sanction to do that. The rest of society does not.

While many churches are more "Liberal" in their reasoning - many of the "Liberal" churches do not have a good expressive outlet. People sing hymns. But it's not that expressive. In a Methodist church if you start singing too exuberantly - people think you're weird - it's discouraged.

While people can certainly go off on their own - I think community celebrations are good concepts. I think our culture could be a lot more open to this. Instead we have sports and other rituals...


P.S. UU Churches try to do this - I think - be a blend of reason mixed with art and music that expresses the joy of life and the search for meaning. As far as something in the community - where people who are interested in this can come together. Of course there are other secular but religious groups - like some of the pagan ones. I think that there is room for more, though. More options.

[kwassa]

19. Your dance urge reminded of the unemployment line in "The Full Monty"

[Evoman]

21. I arrived at him one time while locked in a small cell

by an evil king. The king had heard rumours that I could spin straw into gold. I told him..fuck you king..I can't add or take away atoms..how the fuck do you expect me to make gold? He told me to do it or die.

But then god saved me. He came into my cell, and taught me how to make gold. In exhange, he told me that if I couldn't guess his name in 3 tries, I would have to give him my first born.

I was like ...fuck that, god. So I threw a brick of gold at him, and it broke his neck.

Well...I think he was god. I don't know...who else could turn straw into gold, right? It was kind of weird though...when I looked at his wallet, it said Rumplestiltskin. It is a strong name..fit for a god.

[Goblinmonger]

22. Here's a short version of the story I keep promising to tell Grannie

but I never seem to get around to. My apologies to her.

I was born into a VERY conservative Catholic family in North Dakota (3 of 4 grandparents came from Bohemia and the 4th from Poland). I was an altar boy and sang in the choir. By the time I was in middle school, I had an enormous knowledge of the bible. This convinced my priest and teachers that I should think about going into the priesthood and their never-ending discussion eventually convinced me that it must be a sign from god. Now that I am 40 and have taken many education classes, I know that I am a very strong auditory learner (VERY strong--almost an "audiographic" memory if you will) and I just remembered everything I heard in church for 13 years.

Being that I was in the middle of the asshole of our country (rural ND) and my school was a piece of shit, I decided to go to the Catholic seminary high school in Fargo--a very good college prep high school. When I went, I was seriouly considering the priesthood. Before going my first year, I read the bible cover to cover so that I would be "ready" for my education. I had some fantastic teachers (both of my English teachers there are responsible for me being an English teacher now--Thank you again Sr. Patricia and Dr. Weiler). I had some fabulous priests and some freaky ones. One priest constantly told the story that god physically spoke to him and told him to be a priest. Then, my senior year, I met Fr. Feltis (no longer a priest). He said it was crazy to think that god would come down and talk to you and tell you to be a priest. He said you become a priest because you think it is the best use of your talents and desires. After talking to him further, I knew it wasn't for me and applied for other colleges than the minor seminary (I was accepted to Oberlin for vocal performance but didn't have the funds--but that is a WHOLE other story). When my spiritual advisor got word I was quitting the seminary program, he tried to talk me out of it. In retrospect, I do think I would have made a good priest. He asked me to reread the bible and examine god's word. I did. That was the beginning of the end. I was involved in debate in high school and the logical inconsistencies of what I had been told was "god's word" were so clear this time. Needless to say, I went to the University of North Dakota.

I read a lot even as a very young kid. I would buy books at rummage sales I had never heard of and just read them to see if it was cool. During my freshman year in college, I found a copy of "Why I am not a Christian" and other essays by Russell. I picked it up out of curiosity given my "the bible is stupid" experience the previous year. Russell put into words things I had been thinking for many years. At first I could only say that I was agnostic. We can't really know. My upbringing still had an enormous hold on me.

Oddly, kwassa and I had the same experience when only with different results. My wife and I took a trip to Denver. We went white-water rafting down the Colorado. At one point, after a rough rapids, there was a calm area with a fabulous view. It was then that I realized I was an atheist. There was so much beauty in the world. The mountains, the river, the trees, the sky and, though I was an English teacher at that point I started in engineering and still have a very scientific mind, everything that was so damn beautiful at that moment had a very clear scientific explanation. No god needed to explain how that beauty came into being. That made it so clear how egotistical and arrogant it was to think that if that mountain occurred naturally why were we any different. I have considered myself an atheist ever since...but wait.

When did I come out? Still haven't That moment was in 1989. I did not tell my wife until 3 years ago. My kids don't know--though I'm pretty sure my daughter is an atheist in the making give conversations we have as a family about what they believe.. One other teacher at school knows when it became clear he was an atheist, too, through subtle discussions--maybe we have some form of gaydar? I don't feel it is safe to tell anyone else. I am considering going to the freethinkers group that meets at our UU fellowship, but it still feels like bad things could happen if the wrong people know.

Anyway, if you are still reading, that is my journey to date. Conservative Catholic to "raging" atheist.

[Finder]

24. Good story and one many of us can relate to. n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. WELL IT'S ABOUT TIME, GOBBLIN!

And here I pictured you sneaking out of the seminary window in your robes, meeting up with the pretty nun and you both run away....

Oh well. Not quite as romantic, but a happy ending!

TG

[kwassa]

30. one other eerie connection ....

I grew up in Oberlin.

[Goblinmonger]

31. Maybe I'm your doppleganger?

That would explain a lot :evilgrin:

[TheBaldyMan]

23. Google maps n/t

[Goblinmonger]

25. True dat! n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

28. I'm pretty sure I was born with it.

I hear voices and no, meds didn't help!

Not aural voices, but strong, strong direction. And all good. Never critical, just truthful.

Also a dozen or so notable life experiences that helped shed light on the mystery. But I am very much one of the blind guys groping the elephant. I have no answers, really, except love.

And happily, love is equal opportunity and one needn't believe in an external god in order to come to the party, sit on the front porch and eat cookies.

[Finder]

32. Not through a hair dryer, I hope.

Sorry, couldn't resist the samharrisism.lol

[hunter]

34. Everyone in my family argues with God. Even the atheists among us.

It's pretty clear we all hear something.

I'm not sure how that works, but the atheists simply don't attribute the voice to God.

[zonmoy]

33. my views on religion was that if there was a god

I really didn't want anything to do with him but since his followers insist on coercing worshiping him on me. his followers being my family who think that because I have aspergers they have the right to coerce me into being their version of normal I have grown to hate him and consider him the most evil thing in my life.

[hunter]

35. Church has always appealed to my sense of order.

My own family is noisy and chaotic and Church was a place that was orderly and quiet.

When I was young I don't think I felt coerced to do anything most of the time -- my parents were fairly accepting of my odd behaviors and obsessions. There wasn't a lot of pressure on me to be "normal" so long as I wasn't disruptive.

They did make me go to Little League one season, and I was picked second-to-last at the tryouts, just ahead of a kid with Down Syndrome. I hated practice because the coaches would make me do stuff, but games were okay, sitting on the bench, or occasionally standing in left field watching the bees and other insects.

I go to Mass on Sunday and it's a quiet, reflective time. No one demands to know what's going on between God and me.

[charles22]

36. As an "atheist"

I came to my position after years of Church and Sunday School training. Finally realized it was a bunch of nonsense and realized my struggle was with the Church, that I never believed it.

[kiahzero]

37. It's complicated

I initially said that I started from a rational position. However, that's not quite true. From my starting position, I follow a rational process. The problem is that after years of algorithm development and formal logic, I've come to realize that reason isn't such a good place to start - it always took some intuition for me to get to a good starting place, and then reason to get the rest of the way.

There are a number of perspectives from which one could view religion. Intuitively, I choose to view it as a story one lives one's life by. I make no conclusions regarding whether or not this perspective is necessary or not, as I see such conclusions as only useful if one seeks to evangelize. I believe, and this belief would seem to be justified, that any necessary truth on the nature of the divine is unknowable, and it is certainly impossible to know that one knows. Therefore, a quest for such knowledge is ultimately quixotic. Thus, I simply incorporate the stories that speak to me into my worldview.

I consider myself to be a Deist, because of the framework that brought me to this conclusion. I consider myself to be a pagan, because of the way I've weaved these stories.

With that dispensed with, here are the direct answer to your questions:

What part of my conception is internal or external? I'm not quite sure what you mean about that.

What kinds of materials did I consult? I've taken courses on world religions, and I've done my own cursory reading about every religion I could think of (The Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance have put together a fantastic resource for informing ones' self about the basics of most religions). I also read a fair amount of fiction, which sometimes contains resonant themes.

What or who influenced me? Many people: my love, whose interest in philosophy rubbed off on me; my World Religions professor, who is probably one of the best professors at University of Delaware; the aforementioned OCRT; and a great many authors, including Neil Gaiman and T. Campbell.

[Dervill Crow]

38. Process of elimination.

It's a complicated and lengthy story spanning four decades and several different religions, the details of which are probably boring to anyone other than myself. The closest thing I've found to a definition of my beliefs is panentheism.

[TRYPHO]

40. Hmmm...that's a toughy

Ok, the first time I remember any feeling of BIGNESS was just after taking my O'levels when I was 16. I knew I had passed, the summer was mine, I hadn't got a problem in the world, the sun was warm on my face and I just thought...AAAHHHHH....life can't get better than this.
The second time was about a year later when my girlfriend broke up with me. I was crying in my room and I just thought, WOW, LIFE DOESN'T GET MORE REAL THAN THIS (I was young mind, so forgive me:-)
After that, I kinda had trouble not thinking it about everything. I am disgustingly satisfied with my life, and am often filled with a quiet sense of sneaky contentness. I have to hide this from my wife because she is so ridiculously un-content she wont ever "get it". She has everything she could weant in life in my opinion, and to her she feels she's lacking the basic requirements of satisfaction (don't ask, she's SO materialistic).

Religiously I was brought up bog-standard british Jew. However, whereas most kids give up at 13 and start going to football matches I got really into it, went to the Rabbi's for discussion groups till the early hours, and adbsorbed the information proferred. It is an ingeneously well argued religion if nothing else. I then went to Israel and upped my emotional level to the point where I then went back to my local comprehensive school (2 Jews, 200 blacks, 200 greeks, 1200 christians) wearing the only skull cap ever seen and taking it all very seriously (missed out on losing my virginity too coz of that!)

THEN I went to University and decided I wanted sex, drugs, song, drink and MacDonals, so took off the cap and put on a condom and got pissed and fat and eventually laid. I got kicked out of Uni for non-attendance but i had a fucking good time and got into some really good books on the mind, which lead me on about a 5 year low level study of humans and their thought processes. That was followed by getting married and having kids and about 10 years whizz by when I was SO busy I couldn't shit. But I kept reading.

And then I became a Freemason, and started tracing the history of that backwards, which lead to some interesting questions about what Jesus may have meant when he (allegedly) raised the dead (for those in the know compare with the 3rd degree) and that lead me to read up a WHOLE LOT on christianity. A WHOLE LOT. And I am lucky enough to live in a time when the Nag Hammadi Library is in out posession and the Gnostic Gospels are available (in my hand as I type) and the Dead Sea Scrolls and I'm reading and reading and reading. And then I'm going back to Judaism as an adult with an adult mind and reading books that I would have argued with as a kid but now just read with a hunger for knowledge.

The scientist in me looks for evidence based findings and the religionist (?) in me looks for the same too. BUT, like I've said elsewhere, the Jew in me is NOT related to my belief in God, just my cultural practise of religion, which I still love, and my belief in God is still based around those first feelings of smothered warmth and contentness and satisfaction that my wife, given a couple of trillions dollars, would probably still never find.

Here's my question: Are God fearers more contented or less contented than non-god fearers?

TRYPHO