My problem with Islam.

[BoneDaddy]

I need some help here, preferably from my Muslim brothers and sisters and other progressive DUers on here.

First of all, my problem is not with individuals. I know, work with many people of Islamic faith and in many ways I find them to be more respectful, honorable, and kind than many Americans who have been here for generations. I have the same experiences with people who consider themselves to be born again fundamentalist Christians. As individuals they can be kind, loving, forgiving and have many "christ like" qualities.

My problem is not with the people, it is with the "faith".

My issue, it seems, is with fundamentalism. Where I find many liberal religious from other faiths (Christians, Jews, Buddhists etc), I don't find or see Islamic moderates or liberals. Sure I have met a smattering of individuals who may fall into that category, but I certainly do not see a movement that stands up, speaks up and decries the fundamentalist mindset that drives, fuels and fans the flames of hate that I see in the middle east.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not excusing the behavior of the US or the West in general, they are certainly culpable and there are more than enough threads in here that address this. And there certainly are "Christian" nut jobs who do the same thing, but no where do I see a liberal Islamic movement that challenges the fundamentalist, anti-freedom tenets of hardcore Islam, like I do with Christianity and Judaism.

I think part of this has to do with Islam's rejection of modernity and policies of isolation re: the west, but that does not excuse it for me.
And it baffles me to see liberals on these boards curse and spit when it comes to fundamentalist Christians on these boards, but do not apply the same litmus test to Islam. I watch as feminists defend the right of women to wear the Islamic headwear and the underpinnings of patriarchy in Islam and I just shake my head. I feel like I have stepped into bizzarro world.

I have said this before on many threads. Multiculturalism is a tool to find common ground, to open oneself up to someone of another culture so that we can communicate, work together and understand. What multiculturalism does not mean (at least to me), is that we HAVE TO ACCEPT every single practice from another culture as being rational, valid and OK. I simply point to female genital mutilation as an obvious example of a tribal practice that is barbaric, horribly wrong and based upon insane premises. Because I am against that, does that make me insensitive to that culture? Bullshit.

At one point I did think like that but after reading Sam Harris' book "the end of faith", he really made me think deeply about it. We shy away from religious talk, don't confront it's irrational inconsistencies and in an effort to be fair minded good liberals, let some things pass that we would never allow if it came from the republicans.

I do believe that Muslims can be very peaceful people and I have had the experience of that on numerous occasions, but when it comes to a matter of criticizing their faith on it's inconsistencies and practices, it seems that even the most "liberal" Muslim becomes a staunch defender of their faith, that is why we can see the solidarity of Islam throughout the world, even though a suicide bomber takes a number of innocent souls with them. Why isn't there an outcry against this?

Harris points to the "faith" itself and how it differs from Christianity and Judaism. Sure, there are plenty of paragraphs in the bible that are murderous, genocidal, and they certainly have been used in the past and present to kill others, but it seems the Koran is literally filled with phrases about killing the unbelievers and it is this type of rhetoric that drives the irrational machine in the middle east.

So please refrain from emotional attacks and try and stick to the issue. I really want to understand it, because at this point, I do not.

[Bridget Burke]

1. I haven't yet read the Koran. Could you recommend a translation?

Also, I'd like cites for the many phrases about killing unbelievers.

Psalms is a wonderful, poetic book of the Old Testament; here's #136:

1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.

3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

4 How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?

5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.

6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Until an expert arrives, check out good old Wikipedia. Follow the many links & you'll have some background for further discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

[uppityperson]

2. Sounds like the problem is with fundamentalism as I could apply what you write

to any fundamentalists. I have talked with "liberal" Muslims/Christians/Wiccans/7th Day Adventists/atheists/Jews/ etc/etc/ etc about the inconsistencies in their faiths and have good conversations. I have talked with fundamentalists of all these groups about the inconsistencies in their faiths and they become staunch defenders.

Seems the problem keeps coming back to the fundamentalists, the ones who not only strongly believe their way is Right, but their beliefs are Right for All and they have the right to force it on others.

[BoneDaddy]

8. Yep

I tried to make that a point in my OP...fundamentalism is the problem. Problem I have is that it seems as if fundamentalism has Islam in a death grip right now and is choking out any rational or progressive thought. Liberal and moderate muslims who speak out are often killed or driven out.

[sam sarrha]

15. i think the problem is the absence of "Evolution" in religion

[uppityperson]

16. Seems that way for a lot of religions now, fundamentalist deathgrip

It seems that fundamentalists are frequently the best organized groups, since their focus is limiting and pushing beliefs on others, or at least pushing how they think you should act on others.

[sinkingfeeling]

63. And this is different from the fundamentalist Christian movements, how?

[Jackpine Radical]

3. I think you're buying into the prevalent media mythology of Islam.

There most certainly are liberal Muslims. I know some. Sadly, they get short shrift in a media environment like ours. Muslims are bloodthirsty savages, Democrats don't have an agenda, Bush is a good guy to have a beer with (except that he doesn't drink after he Found Jesus), etc.

Go meet some Muslims. Go down to the local mosque & talk to the Imam. He won't bite you.

If you want to take it further, Karen Armstrong, the great religious historian, has written a couple of books, one on Mohammad and one on Islam, that provide a solid grounding on the nature of the faith.

In historical terms, maybe you aren't aware that in about the 1200's through the 1500's, Islam was an island of civilization and culture in a sea of medieval Christian darkness. Muslims ruled most of Spain, and provided a haven where Christians, Jews and Muslims interacted to create a vibrant intellectual culture. The Jewish scholar Maimonides wrote in Arabic.

You may also be unaware that the Christians burned the writings of the classical Greeks because they were pagans. The only reason we know anything at all of Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle is because the Muslims saved their writings for us.

[BoneDaddy]

5. Thanks

but I have read Karen Armstrong, specifically The Battle for God, where she describes fundamentalist Islam as more a reaction to modernity. In it she talks about how fundamentalism is a new phenomena in Christianity, Judaism and Islam and not a return to the old ways. The problem is that within the Koran, there is more fuel for the fire for extremism or violence than there is in the OT and NT (which certainly does contain a good amount).

And I certainly respect and value the contributions of Islam in the past...calculus, algebra etc. So my follow up question is how do we help Islam return to such a intellectual past and shake off the current fundamentalist bent that seems to dominate much of the rhetoric out there?

[Bridget Burke]

11. Invading Muslim countries & slaughtering the inhabitants....

Does not encourage moderation. It strengthens the fanatics.

Doing what we can to change our country's foreign policy will help. Working for cultural understanding is also useful. Our own culture & others...

[BoneDaddy]

18. Absolutely no doubt

I said numerous times that I do not excuse the behavior of the US and the WEst and I totally agree that our "fundamentalist" Christianity helps fuel the fire. But I have addressed my concerns about Christianity ad nauseum and want to put the focus on Islam.

[treestar]

33. What is most annoying about this kind of general condemnation

of Muslims is exactly this. They are to be judged as if they lived under the conditions we live under. If we were really being constantly attacked as Christians, we might be a lot more rabid and defensive of Christian excesses. In fact that explains the RW fundies to the extent their fear is genuine.

And just because those fundies do not chant in the streets "Death to all Muslims" does not mean they don't think it. If you listen to some of them, they know it is unPC to say so in our society, so they avoid coming right out and saying it. That's just the difference between life in the US and life in a Muslim Country showing up. Doesn't show they aren't just as full of hate as the Muslims they condemn (which for them includes them all, not just the murderous ones).

[BoneDaddy]

38. Thought crimes

although the basis of extremist violence are not the same as DOING IT. The logic of the defense of Islam fundamentalism is astounding.

For the person who asked whether or not some people defend Islamic orthodoxy, here is an example of it.

[uppityperson]

40. who is defending fundamentalist Islam?

[MadHound]

43. I think that you're buying into the media hype

And granted, given the biased coverage on this issue, it isn't hard to do.

First off, fundementalism in all of the Abrahamic religions isn't something new, it has been around in various forms for centuries. For example, fundementialist Christians and evangelicals have been in the this country since its inception(do some research on both of the Great Awakenings, and also the Burnt Over District from colonial and early US history). However most fundamentalist Christians shunned politics as a flawed construct of man, thus they didn't vote and didn't count as a political force until really thirty years ago, when Reagan and the neocons started courting their vote, promising outrageous things.

Same with Islam. The majority of Islamic people are not fundamentalist. Witness Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Lybia, even Iraq was a secular and non-fundamentalist state under Hussein. And while there have been fundamentalist sects, they were not a political force. It wasn't until Sayyid Qu'tb published his two works, "In the Shade of the Quran" and "Milestones" in the late '50s and early '60s that a fundamentalist Islamic political movement started to emerge.

Interestingly enough twenty years ago the US, via the CIA, was encouraging the growth of fundamentalist Islam in Afghanistan and the surrounding area. They saw this as a bulwark against the Soviet Union, and thus provided arms, money and training. This is what helped expand bin Ladin's power and influence in the region.

All fundamentalism is a reaction to moderninity. All want to return to the days when God ruled people's action, when there was no divide between the secular and the spiritual. This is an interesting dynamic playing out between the branches of Abrahamic religions. They all want a theocracy, all based on essentially the same principles, it's just the details that they're fighting over. The Quran is actually quite similar to the Christian bible, in fact it contains much of the same material. They essentially believe in the same monotheistic God, follow the same dietary and social restrictions in many cases, have the similar sets of theocratic laws to follow, it's just the details that they quibble over.

I don't think that you will be able to rid the world of religious fundementalism of any stripe. What we can do however is create a secular world where all religious beliefs are tolerated, and all can co-exist in peace. We actually had achieved this not that long ago. But various political groups and power structures decided to stir the hornets' nest, and look where we are.

[Clark2008]

4. There are more moderate Muslims than fundamental

Muslims - but, you see, they aren't newsworthy in that they don't perpetuate this "barbaric" nature the media/administration wants us to believe they all have, thus providing us with another enemy now that the Cold War has ended. That's why you never "see" them on television or hear or read about them on the radio or in the newspaper.

Pretty simple, eh?

P.S. As a feminist, I fight for a woman to wear whatever the hell she wants in a free society; therefore, I belive forcing Muslim women NOT to cover in England or the United States is just the same FORCING them to cover in Saudi Arabia or Iran.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. Check out this link

Liberal Islam Network: http://islamlib.com/ "Our missions are: 1. Develop the liberal Islamic interpretations that are appropriate to our principles, and disseminate it to as many people as possible. 2. Attempt to create dialogue rooms that are open and free from any pressures of conservatism. Only by the availability of open rooms for dialogues, the thought and Islamic action improvement could be well preserved. 3. Endeavor the formation of a fair and humanely social and political structure. We believe that the democratic system is a system that "in the very now" can accomplish those needs. In capitalism, we believe that there are some policies could be supported, and criticize some of its aspects as well."

[BoneDaddy]

7. Wonderful

Thank you very much. I will definately check it out

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. Any time :^) I have a section on LCN that lists liberal religions

http://www.hostdiva.com/liberalchristians/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=28

[sam sarrha]

9. i was Dakar Senegal in the Peace Corps in '73, there were several sects of Islam there, >LINK

they did not outwardly show any problems but they did within the group i associated with have problems with other sects. for the most part the coexisted well.. but my Moor friends weren't particularly fond of the Arabs.. it seems the Arabs stoled they children and sold them at the local Open Slave Market on the street.. as tho they were bags of rice or tea kettles like the merchants next to them.

...LINK> ..this site is run by ex-Muslims who appear the progressive and want to do something about what they see a problems in the Faith
http://www.islam-watch.org/index.html

this slave market was still in operation when Bu$h made his end of slavery speech on that world wind tour a few years back. the

the Darfur genocide is between 2 islamic groups.. maybe the Faith is concerned among them selves away from the local religious leaders..maybe not, maybe they just don't air their dirty laundry like we enjoy too so much.

[samfishX]

10. I Don't See Any Liberal Christian or Jewish Movements Either

I really don't think the lack of a "liberal" movement is Islam is the problem.
I see, instead, apathetic Christians and Jews who don't take their religion all that seriously.
(Buddhism, however, I agree is rather "liberal")
But liberalism doe not equal apathy or a lack of seriousness.

The reason you don't see those attitudes that regarding Islam, in my opinion, is because the faith is much, much smaller in the US and in the middle east they're very religious and fundamentalist for a variety of reasons that we could rabbit on about for days.

Also, I haven't read the Koran/Qu'ran/however you want to spell it...but from what I understand, a LOT of right-wingers blow it out of context with it's talk of murderous passages, etc...kinda that way a lot of us on the left are undeniably guilty of blowing murderous passages of the Bible out of context. So whenever I hear someone go on about how the Koran is nothing but a book of murder, I just roll my eyes.
I figure if I could stand to read that kind of indoctrination (that's what I see it as, at least), I would find out for myself. Alas...I can't even make it through 35 pages of the Bible.

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. We do exist. You don't see us due to corporate media, not because

we aren't out there.

Some liberal religions: http://www.hostdiva.com/liberalchristians/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=28

[Bridget Burke]

17. There are Liberal groups in all 3 Abrahamic faiths

But they never get the press the louder types do.

Who wants to watch people working, raising their kids & discussing intellectual matters? Ratings would be lousy!

[uppityperson]

19. That is the other problem, loud obnoxious types get press coverage

it reinforces them, they know they can get press if they are loud and obnoxious.

[BoneDaddy]

24. I consider

public beheadings, "honor" murders, slavery and butchery a bit more than obnoxious.

[uppityperson]

26. I consider

shooting doctors and bombing Planned Parenthood clinics a bit more than obnoxious too. By the way, the Bible has lots of violence advocated in it. When it was first written it was a guideline as the prevailing amount of violence was worse. Too bad fundamentalists take bits and pieces chosen by themselves as Absolute Truth as to How it Should Be for All.

[BoneDaddy]

30. If you bothered to

read my OP you would see that I don't give a pass to Christianity and acknowledge the fundamentalism in it, but that doesn't excuse fundamentalist Islam.

[uppityperson]

32. I did, I know, I agree.

I am talking about fundamentalism, not just Islamic but all.

Edited to add, you do realize that Islam and Judaism and Christianity all have the same way-back source, hence my bible reference.

Re-edited to add, I am not trying to hijack your thread on fundamentalist Islam, but replying and adding my opinion that problem is fundamentalism, not Islam.

[BoneDaddy]

41. I totally agree

it is just that orthodox or fundamentalist Islam is much more in control of the masses than the Christian or Jewish orthodoxy. We are getting to the point in this country where the Christian fundamentalist view is becoming stronger and much more influential than ever in history and as we decry the Christian fundies here, we need to do the same throughout the world.

[uppityperson]

45. I think mst of us here are decrying all types fundamentalism

I think Christian fundamentalism is in great control here in the USA and has done major damage to the world and needs to be spoken out against as well as Islamic fundamentalism needs speaking out against. Too easy to be used to what we have here and give it a pass as "it isn't really that bad", but it is. Down with fundamentalism. Up with humanity.

[treestar]

29. Exactly. This is too true to be argued. When does the MSM

ever cover a Muslim saying anything more moderate than "Death to America?" Never.

[BoneDaddy]

46. I am not saying that Liberal muslims don't exist

But you have to admit they are not as prevalent as people would like to believe and represent a small minority of current Islamic thought.

[uppityperson]

48. I disagree with you. I think they are very prevalant, just quiet

it is the extremists who get news coverage, most are moderate, many are liberal. Pick your religion. Still applies.

[Chulanowa]

68. No, I don't have to.

As people are telling you, there are many, many more moderate Muslims than fanatics. The difference is, moderate muslims aren't newsworthy. The religion has a population of nearly 1.6 billion people. If the moderates / liberals weren't in the majority, there would be more problems than you an begin to imagine.

Why don't hte moderates stand up and decry it? Well, first off, they do, it's just that once again, they get no coverage for their efforts. Secondly... Why should they? Do you stand up and apologize to the world whenever soemone who shares a religion or nationality with you kills someone? I know I don't. Expecting Muslims as a whole to take responsability for crazy people is, well, stupid.

[BoneDaddy]

20. I am not saying that

the Koran is about a book of murder, as it also contains many contradictory passages that are positive. What I am saying is that it is much eaiser for fundamentalism to thrive because of the many passages that condone killing the infidels, etc.

It is much harder for a Buddhist to justify killing or suicide because Buddhist texts don't have many references to doing such a thing, although it can be done. The Kamikazes in WW2 did have, as a basis, buddhist teachings to justify it, but it is a helluva lot harder to find. Open up the Koran and throw your finger down and chances are you will nail a violent passage that somebody in orthodoxy could use to manipulate and justify violence.

That does not mean that I think ALL muslims think like that. I am just saying it is easier to justify it in the holy book for that reason.

[Bridget Burke]

34. You really didn't start this thread to get information.

You just wanted to spout your own opinions.

Again--I'd like to read the Koran but realize translations vary widely. Which one do you recommend?

[BoneDaddy]

44. Thanks Bridget

for reading my mind. If you bothered to read all my posts, I have thanked the people who have contributed some liberal muslim points of view, but the underlying nature of my question has not been fully addressed.

The Koran I have is from Penguin books, but I am sure that if you googled the Koran you could find many copies... Why don't you do the research yourself, because it is evident that no matter what I say you will disbelieve it. And start with Sam Harris' book "The End of FAith", then come back and talk to me.

[Bridget Burke]

50. You're welcome. Mindreading is one of my many mad skillz.

Every time you "thank" someone for posting information on liberal Islam, you counter with your own condemnation of the entire religion.

The Sam Harris book appears interesting. But, according to Amazon, he does not single out Islam as the worst offender. You came up with that bit; or picked it up elsewhere.

I've got the Penguin edition of the Koran, too. Although I've heard there are more poetic translations, I'll return to it. In the meantime, here's an online version. Which surahs do you find particularly offensive?

www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

[BoneDaddy]

52. Wow

you really see what you want to see, dont you.

I read the book, thank you and yes, he does point to Islam as being the worst current offender. He also includes criticism of Christianity and Judaism, but his biggest focus is upon Islam. The reason is is because both Christianity and Judaism, although guilty of much, have evolved over time into more tolerant forms, where as Islam is still struggling with modernity and developing a much more active liberal/moderate side.

As for your link I will get to it when I can.

[Bridget Burke]

57. Then what does Sam Harris recommend we do?

And why didn't you just start a thread on the book, rather than ask your ingenuous question?

[uppityperson]

51. sort of like the bible?

those looking to justify their behaviour can find something there too.

[BoneDaddy]

53. Never

denied that the bible has been used to commit attrocity, probably historically, much more than Islam. But that was never the focus. Islam was the focus. I don't deny any of your or others criticism against Christianity...they are true and valid.

Why then when someone accuses Islam of the same myopic vision, people feel a need to defend it?

[uppityperson]

55. so we are only supposed to write about what you want us to here?

are you asking to focus only on Islam, on fundamilist Islam? You seem to be saying this since whenever I write about another religion you tell me things like "the focus" was on Islam. And are you saying that by my saying fundamentalists of all religions or groups are wrong that I am defending Islamic fundamentalists? Trying to understand what you are getting at here. Thanks.

[cali]

31. Sorry, that's nonsense.

I can't speak to Islam, but both Christianity and Judaism have vibrant liberal strains. Reform Judasim and Episcopalians, just to name two.

[BoneDaddy]

47. Very true.

[Nickster]

13. Boy this sure sounds a lot like the "concern" that I constantly hear parroted

by the RW.

Think back to 9/11. Just prior to that attack, Dubya had ratings similar to what he has now. Just after the attack his ratings soared to an all time high. Did that mean that we all embraced him and his policies? Or did it mean in a time of crisis when we were being attacked that we looked past politics and disagreements to embrace the one unifying thing we have, being American.

Now try to look at the middle east in the same light. The Dubya machine is rolling over the Middle East and radicalizing the entire region because they feel that they are under attack from all sides, just like we felt. So they are rallying to the one unifying thread that they have, their religion.

Because the region is becoming so violent and radicalized any voices of moderation are being drowned out as the chaos increases. How can they discuss peace when their countries are being attacked without any good reason? What will stop the US from invading yet another country based on lies? Would you look to discuss peace in that situation?

Look at our current political situation in the same frame. Is the discussion in the news moderate or has it swung so far to the right that any discussion outside of waving the flag and kissing Dubya's feet is considered treason?

[BoneDaddy]

22. I don't disagree

with what you are saying, but prior to our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, women were still enslaved to Shariah law, were stoned, there were "honor" murders, slavery was prevalent in many Islamic countries, much killing was being done inter-tribally among muslims and so on and so on.

I think we have inflamed and solidified Islam against the West with our actions, but that does not excuse the irrational behavior at the heart of fundamentalist Islam.

[ChickMagic]

21. On of the docs I work with is Muslim

and she has repeatedly said, "I will never veil myself." She's a committed Dem
and we love to rant about this administration along with administrations/
dictators in the middle east. Maybe she's alone in this, but I doubt it.

[BoneDaddy]

23. I work with many Muslims

and as they are allowed to exercise their freedom, more and more reject some of the irrational practices of their faith, similar to many Christians who began to disregard some of the ridiculous "rules" regarding their religions.

[ChickMagic]

28. Very true, BoneDaddy

I do know Muslims here who toe the line, but more are
becoming "salad bar Muslims" just like Christians.

[earth mom]

25. First off, I don't see anyone defending killers on either side of the fence.

Most of us around here are AGAINST War and AGAINST Killing. Got that?

Also, I don't see anyone defending one kind of fundamental religion over another.

What I see is that a lot of us around here are having knee jerk reactions to the christian fundies who have been trying to stuff their religion down all our throats for years now. What they do is a form of extremism-make no mistake. However, the majority of us want to be left in peace and not have anyone imposing their beliefs on us. That's why so many of us are so disgusted with the christian fundies and that's why we are fighting back.

Because most of us want to be left in peace ourselves, we are defending a culture that is completely different from ours to have that same right and be allowed to live as THEY choose. Frankly, it's just not OUR decision to make or anyone to make EXCEPT for the people themselves.

Live and let live. Let people live their lives as THEY choose all over this world. It's as simple as that.

[BoneDaddy]

35. I am confused

you want people to live in peace yet you can defend a fundamentalist form of the Islamic religion that keeps women enslaved, stands in solidarity of suicide bombings, practices the worst kind of patriarchy and acts in a much more magnified way than the Christian fundies in this country.

This is in no way a defense of the Christian fundamentalists, but how can you possibly express a desire to counteract and nuetralize the Christian fundies and give a pass to the Islamic fundies? Is it simply because it is not affecting your directly?

Bizarre.

[uppityperson]

37. who is defending fundamentalist Islam?

[BoneDaddy]

39. Re-read some of the responses to the post

So far I have
1. Well the Christians did this...therefore the Islamic response is justified.
2. Well if we lived as they do, then their response would be seen as legitimate.

[uppityperson]

42. I see people saying that fundamentalism is wrong.

I see people saying that living under different religions is ok, that it is difficult to judge one culture in relation to another, but that violence and fundamentalism are wrong. I see people saying Christian and Islamic and other fundamentalism is wrong. That is what I see.

[Bridget Burke]

54. Everyone who dares disagree with the OP....

Is a crypto-Islamofascist.

Haven't you been reading the thread?

[uppityperson]

58. indeed I have and indeed not only that

if you write about anything else you are so. If you feel fundamentalism is the problem and expand to fundamentalism in general you are not going along with the focus of Islam. Indeed I have been reading, and wondering.

[earth mom]

56. Yes you are confused.

Because you assume that christian fundies are pure as the driven snow. What about what was done to the Native Americans? What about slavery? What about the abortion clinic killings? What about Fred Phelps who terrorizes grieving families at funerals? Or how about those greedy preachers who milk their faithful dry? How about the KKK? They're ALL christian fundies too, aren't they?

What is TOTALLY BIZARRE is that you overlook the very things here in this country done by those of the christian faith that are heinous and ugly. Yet you magnify behavior in a country you probably have never been to! You paint all Muslims as terrorists which is a total crock. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or did that fact escape your mind?! Sounds like you've bought into the terrorism B.S. that's been hyped the past 5 years when you really should be worrrying about who the REAL terrorists are!

BTW-I've heard your arguments almost verbatim from freepers on another mixed board I used to go to-their B.S. was the reason I left. :eyes:

[sam sarrha]

60. the same people that wanted to run our ports are tha Hub of the sex slave trade in

the middle east.. google: islam slave trade

[sam sarrha]

62. my problem isn't with Islam.. it is with any religion that says i have believe or live my life

on their rules... and it really looks like Islam has the most rules and the most repugnant rules of any religion. letting the man in an adulterous relationship go free and burying the woman up to her neck and stoning her to death..??? how can Democracy exist in that world.

[treestar]

27. Nobody has a duty to "decry" the extremists.

You don't have a duty to decry Christian extremists or even the * Administration.

This concept that other people have a duty to speak about something bugs me. It is worse than not wanting people to have freedom of speech to say what they want to say. It is imposing a positive duty on them to say a thing, which somehow seems even more coercive than punishing people for having said something.

The idea that Muslims are not expressing any disagreement with the fundamentalists is a myth, too, simply repeated over and over. You don't hear them because the MSM does not draw any attention to them. But if you use Google you can find hundreds of quotes, especially right after 911.

There could be reasons they don't want to talk about it, too. Whether we agree with those reasons or not, other people do not HAVE to say things because we want them too.

[BoneDaddy]

49. True

nobody HAS to do anything.

But:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

I find patriarchy, murder, suicide bombings, beheadings, the subjugation of women evil...Do you?

[BootinUp]

36. Couple things

I don't get the problem in the west with allowing Muslim women to wear traditional Muslim dress. I believe if they become part of our society those traditions will die out on their own, we don't have to force the issue. And I don't find the mutilation comparison to be that compelling, one is a painful permanently scaring act, the other is an oppressive tradition, something all societies have had or still have.

The other thing is somewhat in the same vein, I think it is a real waste of time for those of other religions to lecture those of another faith, they will not listen to those messages. That is a process that must happen internally in that community. Outsiders should look to push social/economic reforms to educate and provide opportunities so that people do not feel hopeless and powerless and distrustful of others which are the things that drive them to fundamentalism.

my 2 cents. :)

[peanutbrittle]

59. This has been a frustrating issue for me as well......

I wish someone in the Corp media would take this up.

The silence from liberal Islam is deafening. I don't understand why they can't get their message out there in order to help to mitigate the DAMAGE done by fundamentalists, both Islamic and Christian.

LIBERAL ISLAM WEB SITES

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/LiberalIslamLinks.htm

[peanutbrittle]

61. This has been a frustrating issue for me as well......

I wish someone in the Corp media would take this up.

The silence from liberal Islam is deafening. I don't understand why they can't get their message out there in order to help to mitigate the DAMAGE done by fundamentalists, both Islamic and Christian.

LIBERAL ISLAM WEB SITES

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/LiberalIslamLinks.htm

[Ron Green]

64. I think a religion that doesn't stress forgiveness

and doesn't have a sense of humor is harmful. If a religion says at its core, "We are all children of the same God, even if someone says we are enemies," it's a very different thing from a religion that says, "My God told me to kill you."

Liberal Christian religions are pretty much the default in this country for most people in business, government and education. Fundies are the fringe, albeit a noisy one. These liberal religious services often include humor and a casual manner that would be unknown in a Mosque, where the forehead touches the ground.

[AliceWonderland]

65. Statements like "Islam is in the grip of fundementalism"

strike me as too general to be useful when talking about over a billion humans, in societies as diverse as Albania, Libya, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Russia, Morocco, Iraq, and Turkey. That's a lot of people. And, there is plenty of action in civil society in the Muslim world, you're just not going to hear about it on CNN.

I also find it curious that people use Muslims victims as an example of how inherently *bad* Muslims are. (Not saying this is the OP argument, just something on my mind right now.) As in, poor poor Muslim women... how I love those poor Muslim women... urgh, I just hate Muslims for hurting Muslim women!! That kind of thing. Or, those poor sweet Iraqi Muslim victims of violence... gak, aren't Muslims just terrible to hurt the Muslims?

Anyway. I am against religious fundamentalism. I think the whole veil hooplah is complex and yeh, I'm one of those uppity feminists who doesn't think women should be told to wear a veil *or* take off a veil, but rather, women should be free to make choices for themselves. But yeah, vehemently opposed to religious fundamentalism in any form. The sticky wicket comes when you have a media-government-intellectual complex that says terrorism is our enemy (as opposed to illness, poverty, underdevelopment or ecological disaster) and that terror = what a Muslim does. Me, I see terrorism in a broader context where states actors are terrorists as well as non-state actors -- they just have more money and legitimacy to use terror, and tend to get better press when people end up dead. I don't think that's the whole of the problem, but I think it adds to the bizarre notion of a monolithic billion scary evildoers who hate us for our SUVs. That, and a supine media that never rationally weighs the latest chapter of the magical morphing Al Qa'eda conspiracy. That doesn't help either.

And you have to wonder, has anyone tied up in knots over the Koran *read* the Bible? This term, I had a class where we tried to parse Moses freaking out because the soldiers hadn't killed all the women in Numbers 31... and the men were ordered to kill the non-virgins and keep the virgins for themselves to rape.

So, I'm all in favour of critiques of religious fundamentalism. But the broad brush on a billion plus people... that's a problem. Worse, it feeds a cycle of dehumanization, where certain human life becomes less valued.

[TheBaldyMan]

66. I don't understand a particular point you made

when you wrote:

I think part of this has to do with Islam's rejection of modernity and policies of isolation re: the west, but that does not excuse it for me.

Islam doesn't reject modernism, some muslims may reject modernism but that is nothing to do with the tenets of the faith.

In fact, science and learning is highly valued within Islam. Don't forget if it wasn't for the Arabs seeking out and preserving a lot of classical learning a large canon of western thought from Greece and Rome would have been lost to us all.

Please don't confuse reactionary forces within a faith as the faith itself. That's like saying ALL christians are fundie nuts. It is just not true and weakens any points you try to get across. A lot of what you wrote in your post I agree with but lumping Wahabi in with Sufi is frankly ridiculous.

There are many traditions within Islam, more than the sunni and shia traditions in the near east.
As religion goes, they all seem to be picking up bad habits from the loonier fundamentalist christians, it seems that all religions are being used by some unscrupulous individuals in order to exploit others and aggrandise power and influence to themselves personally. Fundamentalism isn't about religion, it's about manipulation of the masses.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

67. I am very cautious of radical Islam

but some of my favorite students and their families are Muslim. And one of them is the nephew of Baghdad Bob!

If I had to choose Islam or no faith, I would definitely go with Islam. It fascinates me.

But I have a hard time getting up and down off the floor, so I'm not quite sure where that would leave me.