Anyone want to comment on the latest Catholic outrage making the press?

[Greyhound]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2608282

At what point does it become apparent that organized religions have nothing to do with faith or right, but are simply about profit and control?

[Straight Shooter]

1. At what point does it become apparent?

When critical thinking skills and cognition mesh sufficiently to view organized religion objectively.

Until then, let the people receive from religion what comforts them. There's little left to comfort us in the world.

[Greyhound]

3. Seeking "comfort" in ignorance as justification?

"I didn't know." The most pathetic excuse ever used.

Comfort can be found in working to right that which is wrong, and I'm pretty sure that JC said something like that before his people turned their backs on him.

[Straight Shooter]

5. I'm not going to judge people for seeking comfort from religion.

If they don't know, I'm not going to judge them for that, either, because I haven't walked in their shoes. I will, however, condemn harshly those religious leaders who are perpetuating their own power and profits at the expense of those who look to them for moral guidance.

In the meantime I'll keep working to right that which is wrong and hopefully set an example.

[onehandle]

2. There's already a discussion going on in that thread...

...that's only been up for less than an hour.

I don't get it when DUers do that. Just respond to the original thread and it will bump up.

[hedgehog]

4. Where were you guys last week when the topic was the murdered Jesuits

in El Salvador?

There are plenty of problems in the Catholic Church, but also many good things. Cherry picking incidents to prove your point of view is not very convincing regardless of who does it. Anyone who insists that the Church is all bad is as foolish as those who insist it can do no wrong.

[Greyhound]

8. I missed that thread. Probably because the defenders of delusion

let in sink into obscurity, just like this one.

Where are all these good things I am constantly told the Catholic Church does? I see them coercing desperate people into their belief system in order to get enough food to survive another day while denying it to those that will not submit, I see them being the single largest landlord on the planet and denying sustenance, they could easily provide, to millions, I see them denying obvious truths to those that need the information to have any chance at all to better their lot.

Are you aware that for a mere $40 billion a year (a tiny fraction of the money the Catholic Church makes every year) we can provide universal food, clean water, health and reproductive care, and basic education? Why would this "altruistic" institution that enjoys so much special consideration all over the world, not pony up to heal the world?

[hedgehog]

10. So, what are they doing with the $40 billion a year instead?

Also, just where are they stashing the rest of it since you say this is a small fraction of their income? I'm curious where you get your numbers about the income of the Catholic Church. Quite frankly, it sounds like an update of Maria Monk for the 21st century.

As for coercing desperate people, Catholic Relief takes care of people all over the world facing acute disaters such as war or the chronic disaster of poverty. No one is required to sign up as a Catholic to get help. Frequently, they are already in place on the ground when a disaster strikes.

[Dorian Gray]

17. Not one single Catholic charity

that I know of demands that those who benefit from the charity's work convert to Catholicism. That's patently false, and I've done a lot of work with Catholic charities.

[Finder]

39. Agree. n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

44. And what organization is going to take this 40 billion

and do these wonderful things? Make these decisions? Hey! Church! Give us your money! We can do it better.

So raise your own 40 billion.

That statement is really rather out there and doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

45. Try googling

Catholic Charities and Catholic Relief Services. As a teacher (for a time in the poorest county in the US) I have worked with these folks many, many times and they are awesome. Competent and compassionate and they don't give a hoot what you think about the Pope.

[Limelight]

6. Don't know what he latest outrage is...

But that isn't true. Or at least it's not supposed to be. As a Christian and a proud Democrat, let's be clear. I do know, without a doubt, that Christianity in this country has been hijacked by politics. The church spends more time trying to tell people how to vote than they do trying to show people how to live. And certainly through out history religion has been used as a tool by the greedy to try to justify their actions and a lame attempt to wash blood off their hands.

Just know two things. One, the people who only use God as if he's a tool to get their way, showing know compassion for their fellow man along the way are not true servants of God and they'll be those guys you heard about scream "Lord, Lord, did I do..." this that and the other in your name? To which God will respond, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you worker of inequity." They can fool people but they won't fool him as he sees their motivations of their hearts.

People who claim to be Christian in this country had better stop trying to treat evangelists like they're the anchor on the nightly news. You watch them for 30 minutes a day and you know all of what's going on. The bible says "Study to show yourself approved" which is to say know the word for yourself. Stop letting any idiot that thumps on a bible and acts as if he's so much better or more elevated than anyone... as if he's anything but a sinner saved by grace his/her damn self ***cough,cough,TED HAGGARD,cough,cough*** tell you what it is you're supposed to be thinking. You study the word, talk to God and form a relationship with him and he'll be the one to change your heart and mind.

It's not really "Religion" that's the problem, but that to many followers get caught up in thinking that showing up to church and voting the way the pastor says to vote is how you get to heaven. Religion is simply the repetition of actions that take priority in your life. Nowhere in that definition is God included. You just need to make sure that your religion is maintaining your RELATIONSHIP with God. That's what it's supposed to be about, not letting it become some propaganda machine.

I'll grant you this. Religion can be used as a tool for control or greed, just ask Martin Luther (no, not King... his name sake who started the Protestant Revolution). But it's not Christianity that's repsonsible for that, but the man who uses it as a smokescreen for his own ambitions who is. That's why believers HAVE to know the word FOR THEMSELVES so they won't be lead astray. When you know the word for yourself know one can twists it's meaning and manipulate you and you'll be able to measure the way your leaders live their lives up to the word and know (as the Holy Spirit will tell you) whether they measure up and deserve to be listened to.

[Straight Shooter]

7. Well said.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[CBHagman]

9. You haven't offered proof of your assertion.

Let me first say that it is horrific that anyone should have participated in the genocide in Rwanda, but it's doubly odious that someone in a religious order would have been involved. I think all fair-minded people, whatever they believe, share your shock and disgust.

I can also agree that throughout history many evil things have been done in the name of a particular faith, and unfortunately that is even true today.

That said, however, you cannot set up an atrocity contest in the name of discrediting all people who have a particular belief, particularly when we consider that the atrocities, starvations, and purges that cost the largest number of lives occurred in the Soviet Union and China, neither of which was operating under an organized religion.

And on the other end of things, I could cite literally thousands of examples of humanitarian efforts, many of them downright courageous, by people of various faiths, including Catholics and other Christians. If you visit the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., you will find a list of people, some of them devout Christians, who risked their lives in the service of keeping Jewish neighbors from being taken to the death camps.

You ask, "At what point does it become apparent that organized religions have nothing to do with faith or right, but are simply about profit and control?" I can't speak for the billions of who do follow a particular faith, whether that faith happens to be Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Wicca, or something else, but I could make an educated guess that many of them have motivations having nothing to do with either profit or control.

And the other thing I would caution against is rejecting out of hand people of defined faiths. Many of them are actually your allies. When you go to a peace march, you can expect the Buddhists and the Franciscan friars to be there. When you look at the heroes of the Democratic Party, there are JFK and RFK, Catholics, and Jimmy Carter and Harry Truman, Baptists, and Paul Wellstone, a Jew, and Paul Sarbanes, a member of the Greek Orthodox faith.

Please don't use one account of one person's cruelty as grounds for judging billions.

[Greyhound]

11. No, you wouldn't want an atrocity contest because you know who wins

hands down. After all the Catholics have been perpetrating this kind of thing for over 2000 years. Stalin and Hitler together would not even be a close second to the Catholic Church (good thing they don't believe in Karma).

Others are worse is not a justification, especially coming from an organization that claims to be altruistic in its purpose.

Since the Church only exists because of the support of its members, they must bear the responsibility for its actions, so where are the protests, the exodus of the faithful in response to the Church's repeated and persistent failures?

I do not reject the individuals that do good, I reject the institution and its quiescence.

The Catholic Church is indeed the single largest landlord on the planet and this is well documented, all you have to do is look.

"I can't speak for the billions of who do follow a particular faith, whether that faith happens to be Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Wicca, or something else, but I could make an educated guess that many of them have motivations having nothing to do with either profit or control."
Again, it has nothing to do with individual practitioners of any religion, but the institution itself (it is disingenuous to include Wicca in your list as it has no status, institution, nor organization monolithic or otherwise). The supporters of such an organization however, do bear the responsibility of the actions of that organization, and subsequent good deeds do not diminish the atrocities committed. Electing a Democratic congress does not excuse the atrocities committed by the US in an illegal slaughter.

[kwassa]

15. And what proof do you have of your outrageous assertion?

This meme comes up from time to time, and has been disproven over and over.

greyhound1966:
"After all the Catholics have been perpetrating this kind of thing for over 2000 years. Stalin and Hitler together would not even be a close second to the Catholic Church (good thing they don't believe in Karma)."

Back it up with some research, otherwise it is simply your prejudice out for a walk.
Which it is.

[Goblinmonger]

16. Off the top of my head

while I pack up things to go home for the weekend of fun and grading essays:

The Crusades
The Inquisitions (multiple ones for multiple fun--this is MANY entries in my list)
The Holocaust--sure JPII apologized but that don't make up for the shit they let happen
African AIDS Epidemic--seriously, why the fuck would you go around and tell the people of Africa that the condoms actually CAUSE AIDS for Christ sake. I mean, really.

[Greyhound]

19. Add to that the mass executions of whole peoples and the extinction

of entire cultures everywhere they have gone in the world. The entire bloody history of the African continent for the last 600+ years.

If you are unaware of these atrocious acts, it is only due to your refusal to see them and a lack of will to challenge your own beliefs.

[kwassa]

23. and the gigantic problems with your list .....

Is that these people weren't massacred by the church, they were massacred by various European countries that were grabbing power in a exercise in greed. The church could be part of the mix, and justification, but the real drive was nationalism, and personal gain. It had nothing to do with Christianity.

Much of the vast death toll in the Americas was due to diseases brought over by whites to the indigenous populations.

What mass executions of whole peoples are you referring to, by the way?

Like I said, research and stats. You've provided zilch, so far.

[redqueen]

24. The thing is...

you can't argue reasonably with some people on this topic.

You only serve to bump the threads filled with their ridiculous assertions to the top of the page.

[Greyhound]

25. "There is none so blind as he that refuses to see"

Enjoy your delusions, just please leave the rest of us out of them.

You have made it more than clear that you are not interested in facts, but would rather spend your time trying to convince (yourself?) that the Church is not responsible for its actions.

[kwassa]

26. excuse me, but you made no effort to present ANY facts whatsoever

I am still waiting for ANY evidence to be posted by you.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about, at all. You apparently have little or no historical knowledge, from what I can see.

[Greyhound]

27. The facts have been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread

I see no reason to waste my time re-writing them so that you can continue to deny them. Have a pleasant day. :)

[kwassa]

28. Like I said, you have no data. So here is some for you .....

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS

4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime


Soviet democides

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.CHAP.1.HTM

It is impossible to fix in mind and digest this democide. Focusing on the most probable estimate of 61,911,000 murdered, as shown in Table 1.2 it is over four times the battle dead (15,000,000) for all nations in the Second World War.12 Indeed, it exceeds the total deaths (35,700,000) from all this century's international, civil, guerrilla, and liberation wars, including the Russian Civil War itself.13 Many other comparisons are given in Table 1.2 and Figure 1.5, the purpose of which is to communicate some feel for what the Soviet democide means in sheer numbers.

[Greyhound]

29. See #25

[kwassa]

30. Um, there is neither fact or data in #25

You are nothing but an anti-Christian bigot.

You have nothing but your own prejudice.

[Greyhound]

32. Since you are able to type, I can only assume that you are not mentally handicapped

and therefore are unwilling to look at the information already provided. Your loss. Buh-bye. :hi:

[kwassa]

34. but ... you haven't provided ANY information.

this is the most bizarre exchange I've had in a long time.

Nothing is supposed to be something.

No facts are supposed to be an argument.

Fascinating.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

50. Where is a fact in 25? Am I missing something?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

49. But you haven't given us any "facts"

Just your opinion and broad statements.

The Catholic Church has a lot of stinkers. So do the Pagans, the Jew, the atheists, the Muslim, even the Amish!

Isn't it a form of bigotry to label such a huge fraction of the world as negatively as you have? Is that not stereotyping? I prefer to look at the individual. The individual parishioner, individual priest, bishop, whatever.

I wish things were as black and white as you see them. Life would be a lot easier. Kind of like GWB's cartoon world. But it is way more complex than that.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

48. Could you elaborate a bit, please?

I minored in history and just don't remember that part.

What I remember is that power corrupts. Sometimes the Church has had the power, sometimes other institutions.

[kwassa]

22. the problems with your list

The holocaust had nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

And you can't blame the AIDs epidemic on them either. That wipes out most of your bodycount right off the top.

The Crusades and the Inquisitions killed thousands, not millions, so there is no comparison to the vast death tolls from Stalin, Hitler, and Mao.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

47. But Goblin

don't you think if you take ANY organized, powerful institution you can come up with an equally horrendous list? I mean the Aztecs threw babies off cliff for entertainment. The Church just happens to have hung around a very long time. If you study pre-Columbian history (I just taught it three years back) it makes the Church look like Boy Scouts. But of course, then, the Church came and slaughtered them all.

But my point is, I just don't think you can lay all the blame at one pair of feet. The human race is, simply, flawed. And mean.

[Evoman]

36. Is it your argument that the church has NEVER acted atrociously?

I am not interested in body counts relative to officially atheist countries. Nobody here is argueing that Stalin wasn't a piece of shit psychopath.

The difference is, nobody is defending Stalin, while people defend the stupid pope and the stupid catholic church all the time. The Catholic church is a gigantic piece of pedophile defending, condom bashing, Aids Aiding SHIT.

Does anybody know whether or not Stalin raped little kids or hated condoms?

[kwassa]

37. Of course not.

And Stalin gets defended in Russia all the time.

I criticize the Catholic church, too, but I am not a member. I am, however, a former employee of Catholic Charities, and I know they are the largest private charitable organization in the U.S.

here is the international version:

http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/about/index.cfm?cfid=11902030&cftoken=10537826

Caritas Internationalis is a confederation of 162 Catholic relief, development and social service organisations working to build a better world, especially for the poor and oppressed, in over 200 countries and territories.

Caritas works without regard to creed, race, gender, or ethnicity, and is one of the world�s largest humanitarian networks.

Caritas provides a beacon of hope for tens of millions of women, men and children in times of hardship and contributes to the development of social justice in times of peace. Caritas's mandate includes integral development, emergency relief, advocacy, peace building, respect for human rights and support for proper stewardship of the planet's environment and resources.

The Caritas approach is based on the social teaching of the Church, which focuses on the dignity of the human person. Caritas's work on behalf of the poor manifests God's love for all of creation.

Caritas believes that the weak and oppressed are not objects of pity, but agents of change leading the struggle to eradicate dehumanizing poverty, unacceptable living and working conditions, and unjust social, political, economic and cultural structures.

[Evoman]

38. Does this charity have anything to do with the Catholic church?

I mean, is it run by the pope and his lackeys? Or is it a group of well meaning Catholic individuals who run it?

[Finder]

40. Stalin had the support of the Orthodox church...

just as Hitler had the support of the Vatican....however, I do agree the atrocities in these two cases were only enabled not perpetrated by the churches.

In both cases the churches acted in the best interest of their churches and not humanity as a whole. It is understandable from a business perspective but from a theological perspective should be telling.

The Inquisition and Crusades are a different matter. Both were funded and encouraged by the religous leaders.

Caritas is a wonderful organization which I support.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. Stalin persecuted the Orthodox Church UNTIL World War II

when he needed the entire population on his side to fight off Hitler.

Until then, he was arresting clergy and dynamiting churches, including some that were priceless architecturally.

Under the threat of invasion, he let up on the official Orthodox Church in exchange for them not making waves. Many Russians in the West considered the Soviet Russian Orthodox Church illegitimate because of this bargain.

[Finder]

53. Much of it was sectarianism...

between "the living church" and Russian orthodoxy. Sovietism became a religion itself during that era. Stalin seemed to use his religious training for political purposes.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

51. Evo,

maybe the problem here is communication. You are talking about, I think, the hierarchy. I am talking (and I know I'm late to the party, but what the hell) the rank and file. I think on the parish level, folks are led by one another to do good things. At least around here, they are. Putting faith aside, belief in a higher power, etc., they work hard on social causes. For example capital punishment. The last time I went to a protest at Starke I was surrounded by white collars and nun habits.

[CBHagman]

31. You're generalizing from one case and not providing facts.

You write, "After all the Catholics have been perpetrating this kind of thing for over 2000 years." Are you saying that you can identify a Catholic Church from over 2,000 years ago? Sorry, but that wouldn't have been the case, nor do I think you can provide data that would prove Catholics were committing genocide in a period when there was no church identified as the Cathollic Church.


In terms of historical genocides, purges, starvations, ethnic cleansing, etc., from what I've read, the highest numbers of deaths in the shortest period of time come from the policies taken by the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, both of which were/are officially atheist.

http://www.answers.com/topic/religion-in-the-soviet-union

The Soviet Union was an officially atheistic state.

(SNIP)

About half the people, including members of the ruling Communist Party and high-level government officials, professed atheism. For the majority of Soviet citizens, therefore, religion seemed irrelevant.


http://www.atlapedia.com/online/countries/china.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

The Great Leap Forward is now widely seen, both within China and outside, as a major economic disaster, being more of a Great Leap Backward that would affect China in the years to come. As inflated statistics reached planning authorities, orders were given to divert human resources into industry rather than agriculture. According to various sources, the death toll due to famine was most likely 20 to 40 million. The three years between 1959 and 1962 were known as the "Three Bitter Years" and the Three Years of Natural Disasters. Many local officials were tried and publicly executed for giving out misinformation<3>.

Starting in the early 1980s, critics of the Great Leap added quantitative muscle to their arsenal. U.S. Government employee Judith Banister published what became an influential article in the China Quarterly, and since then estimates as high as 30 million deaths in the Great Leap became common in the U.S. press. Critics point to birth rate assumptions used in the most widely cited projections of famine deaths.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/moscow/facts.html

Soviet leader Joseph Stalin strengthened Russian dominance of the Soviet Union during his reign (1928-1953), but his brutal purges killed tens of millions of people, And the Soviet economy and society largely stagnated in the decades following Stalin's rule. Then General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev (1985-1991) introduced his policies of glasnost (openness) and perestroika (restructuring) in an attempt to modernize the philosophies of the Communist Party.


There have also been a couple of posters who have misrepresented the Holocaust and laid responsibility for it at the foot of the Catholic Church. What actually happened in Europe during the 1930s and '40s is a good deal more complex than that, comprising the worst and the best, ranging from passitivity or obedience to heroic resistance. It's worth reading up on the history of the period. Keywords include: UNIA, Confessing Church, the phrase "German Christians" (Deutsche Christen) specifically in the context of the Third Reich, Galen, Niemoller, Bonhoeffer, Pius.

There's some debate as to whether John Paul II was actually an anti-Nazi activist in his native Poland. At any rate, his theological studies took place underground, which should tell you something.

Make of these articles what you will:

http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/20000305rodgers3.asp

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/03/international/europe/03pope.html?ei=5088&en=bdccee163ab355bb&ex=1270184400&partner=rssnyt&pagewanted=print&position=

There were reports that Karol Wojtyla was a member of the Polish resistance in World War II. Mieczyslaw Malinski, a friend who became a priest, scoffed at the accounts. He said that members of the underground had asked them both to join the fight against the Nazis, but that the two had declined. But Joseph L. Lichten, of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith in Rome, said that a Karol Wojtyla was active in a clandestine group that worked with the Christian Democratic movement Unia, which had a record of helping Jews, and that he had been put on a blacklist by the Germans.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

46. I think this is a pretty tired argument

I am not Catholic and have no delusions that they are all saints or that their history is one of gentleness and peace. But then EITHER IS ANYBODY ELSE'S.

Admitedly the below is from a blog, but it raises some intereting points...
http://socialism.meetup.com/boards/view/viewthread?thread=1305808&pager.offset=10

"The VAtican's endowment is only $250,000,000, far less than the billions of dollars of endowments in each if the Ivy League Universities or the billion endowment at Notre Dame U and Georgetown U, whose endowments pale compared to the 100's of billions at Harvard and Stanford and Yale.
Each Diocese and each religious Order is a separate corportion owning its own parishes schools and hospitals. They cannot by either Church or Federal law lay a claim on the properties of other dioceseses or Orders.
Any 3 bishops who deeply disagree with the Pope can break with him and ordain their own bishops, so the pope is limited in what he can get the bishops to do. I would say EXON-Mobil and United Fruit Co a and the royal house of Windsor are bigger landowners than the Chruch. And what the church owns is all put to good use, in schools, churches, monasteries and hospitals, that are all non-profit entitites producing valuable social and spiritual services. There are also many church run homes for the homeless such as Catholic Worker Houses all over the world, and TAize houses.
I think you are woefully misinformed about the Church and how much it does.
Again, I suggest you access the web-site of Catholic Relief Services to get started in your obligatory research."

[Dorian Gray]

56. Good information

Tallahassee Grannie! And it explains the church's infrastructure quite well and succinctly!

[Evoman]

12. This does not even register on the atrocities of the church.

I don't blame the catholic church for the immorality of a single nun. This just shows me what I have always known...that individual Christians can be as good or evil as anyone else. I really don't think the church needs to take blame for this.

I still, however, think the organization of the catholic church is a great piece of fucking shit. The condom issues, the pedophile coverups, the exploitation of their "flock"...thats what gets my goat. They are rich, and they give very little of their money or land to worthy causes...its charity groups MADE UP of individual catholics who do that.

Maybe catholic people should start giving their money to charities (even Catholic charities) and stop feeding the pope and his idiot sycophants.

[moobu2]

14. The Catholic church was up to it’s neck in this

The church (the Vatican) actually hid accused priests and nuns from justice. They'll never come clean about it though.


"Due to the widespread involvement of both Catholic and Protestant clergy in the genocide and the shelter and protection given to members of both ethnic groups of all religions by Muslims, widespread conversion occurred causing the Muslim population to jump from 4% to 14%"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwanda

[Goblinmonger]

13. She's not a True Catholic.

That is clear. She's just so clearly godless and immoral and that is why she did what she did. If she didn't have a god-shaped hole in her heart, none of this would have happened.

[Dorian Gray]

18. Who said that she wasn't Catholic?

That's just putting words in our mouth. She's a despicable human being who should be held accountable for her crimes, and she will be punished accordingly, I hope. (Though she should be given the death penalty.)

And, yes... she was Catholic. Who cares? It doesn't change her crime, nor should this one instance prove that the church is evil. (Though, to some it will, I'm sure.)

[Greyhound]

20. Certainly not this one incident (there have been three convictions and one verdict is pending)

it is just the latest in an ongoing and thoroughly grotesque history, that indicts the Church itself.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

52. Well, Hitler was Catholic, yes?

[rug]

21. Assuming the verdict is based on fact, exactly how do those acts advance Catholicism?

[moobu2]

33. How does hiding a bunch of priest child molesters advance it?

[rug]

35. That's not the original question.

If he - and you - are asserting this conviction is either the result or purpose of Catholicism, explain it.

Or would you rather I just take your word for it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. Are you saying that she betrayed Tutsis BECAUSE she was a nun?

That's a stretch.

There were plenty of non-nuns, or even non-Catholics, who committed atrocities during that horrific period.

I would say that her crime was especially inexcusable because she's supposed to know better, but it sure wasn't being a nun that caused her to participate in genocide.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

43. That is surely a very broad brush

you have going there. A roller, actually. On a big pole.

I belong to a church. It does not attempt to control me. It does not make profit. It is run by the people, not a hierarchy.

Nuns are people...not angels.

[Evoman]

54. Yes, but whats the point?

I completely agree with you...nuns are not angels. But what are they? They're not JUST people, they also represent something...and the nun wasn't just living in that war torn nation because she liked it, she was there as a representative of the church, as a missionary. Its like if Bill Gates sent a microsoft manager to Darfur to manage a software sector, and the manager then sent out employees he didn't like out to get killed by rival programmers. Then Bill Gates and Microsoft spent money to cover/defend their genocidal managing assistant.

In a case like that, would we not be able to criticize the employee? Gates? Microsoft? What about people who defend Microsoft after hearing about the atrocity?

What does the church hierarchy have to do before people stand up and say, "I don't want to be part of this anymore"? Before they decide they don't want to be part of a an organization that is complicit with genocide, pedophilia, and perversity? If the church leaders are not "Moral leadership" then what is the fucking point of the church, anways...deciding whether dead babies go to limbo? At least Microsoft, despite their shitty software, actually has a purpose.

The OP was not talking about your church. And he probably wasn't talking about the little churches with no connection to the Vatican either. And yes, christians (including Catholics) are involved in a lot of charities....but that really means very little to me. Lol..let me explain. There is no doubt that the majority of people belong to one of the "Major" religions....since many people equate the religion with morality because of this, if a person claims their charity is religious, people will trust it more. It is not that catholic or christians are more giving or charitable...its just thats its almost impossible to imagine people donating money to a Wiccan or Pagan or even Atheist (not secular, Atheist) organization. Besides, the community aspect of church (and, I would argue, the only positive aspect of religion/church at all) is that it allows people to group and come together to plan things like charity.

Catholic people are not charitable because of their religion....looking at their "Moral Leaders", I'd almost be tempted to say it is desite it.

[rug]

55. What role, precisely, did the Catholic Church play in this genocide?

Your agent analogy holds little water.

[moobu2]

57. Think of the Catholic church as a disease,

And the molestation, death and other horrors as symptoms of that disease. That’s kind of how I look at it. Don’t really mean to offend anyone, that’s just how I see it.

[rug]

58. Ok, enjoy the view.

[beam me up scottie]

59. Oh brother.

I'm as militant an atheist as you're likely to find on DU and I don't consider this to be a "catholic" outrage.

She did represent The Church, and they bear some responsibility for her crimes, but she is not representative of lay catholics.

I do, however, agree with your analysis of organized religion.