Mayweather vs Marquez

[H2O Man]

September is an important month in the sport of boxing. There aren't as many fights being televised each week, as there has been in the past few months, but there are two "big" bouts scheduled. The first is Mayweather vs Marquez on 9-19, which will be an HBO PPV card; the next is (Vitali) Klitschko vs Arreola on 9-26, on HBO.

HBO is featuring its series "Mayweather/Marquez 24/7" each week, leading up to the fight. It is one of the best-made sports programs on television. Boxing fans have enjoyed the "24/7" series, leading up to a number of big fights in the past. For many sports fans, these series have allowed for a window to view one of sports' most curiously dysfunctional families, the Mayweathers.

Like every boxing fan, I have a great deal of respect for Marquez. His two fights with Manny Pacquiao were very close, and many people believe Marquez won one or both of them. The "24/7" series is showing how he is doing "old school" training, including going up a mountain, throwing large stones (I've read he is also rolling boulders uphill). I prefer the isolated, old school methods of preparation for a fight. This guy is going to be as ready as he ever has been, when he enters that ring.

I'm not big on the more modern, urban boxing gyms. The amount of distractions is not good for 99% of fighters. One of the few exceptions was Ali, but even he found the benefits of his rural, Deere Lake training camp later in his career. Mayweather is the only other boxer who seems to do well in the more hectic setting. It's just the way his mind works. Like Ali, he appears to draw upon the energy that comes from the combination of fans and the very outside conflicts that most trainers want to isolate their fighters from. But, with his Uncle Roger and father around him, there are always going to be tensions.

It may be that this fight, and the Pac-Man vs Cotto fight, will lead to the much anticipated Mayweather vs Pacquiao super fight next year. But it would not be a good idea to overlook either Marquez or Cotto.

The Klitschko vs Arreola fight is also good for boxing. As everyone knows, the heavyweight division has been dull -- at best -- since Lennox Lewis retired. Considering that Lewis wasn't often the most exciting of fighters (though he was very, very good), that's saying a lot. While the older Klitschko brother is favored, most US boxing fans are hoping that the hard-punching Arreola can connect early and often. He could be the fighter who puts the heavyweight division back on the sports map.

What do DUers think of these two bouts? Any predictions?

[JonLP24]

1. I really wish I could watch

I'm going with Mayweather. Not really a prediction but someone I'm rooting for to win and I haven't rooted for anyone before this year except for good fights. I do hope Mayweather vs Marquez will be a great fight. I really hope I can at least catch some highlights of it on Sportscenter even though I never see boxing highlights on that show. I believe they will no have choice but to show it considering the amount of anticipation the lead up is drawing.

As far as Klitschko vs Arreola I don't know who either of them is as you know, it wasn't until a little over a month ago I started paying attention. I'll give you a prediction though. Arreola wins.

[H2O Man]

2. There's an interesting

thing about Mayweather's return to the ring .... at least I think there is. It's possible that he will not be able to regain the advantages that made him the best of his time, in each weight class he competed in. It's possible that he'll be about the same, and simply have a few more fights for a few more millions. But there is another possibility -- one that I think is actually pretty good -- and that is that Floyd is looking to cement his place in the history of the sport, and is physically mature now in a manner that will make him compete in a different manner against opponentssuch as Manny Pacquiao. I think he may begin to put more punches together in an offensive strategy.

Many boxing people do not understand or appreciate how strong he is. He rarely has used that strength, simply because he doesn't need to. He is in the most absolute sense a boxing purist, in the "hit but don't get hit" way that trainers prefer. But he has a couple wins in which he combined that with power-punching (Corrales and Gatti). And, against Zab Judah (who is a talented fighter, without the self-discipline that makes Floyd an all-time great), he showed he can go toe-to-toe with an opponent with great hand speed and real power. And, like Judah at his best, Floyd can move his feet so fast that between when an opponent starts a punch, and gets full extension, he is in a different place. Literally. And, as well as I know boxing, I can say that there have been very, very few men who could do this. (Even great defesive fighters like Benitez, with his "radar," and Leonard, did not have this ability.)

Floyd has used this ability to disrupt his oppent's pace. And Floyd would mix some counter punches in, to frustrate an opponent, and make them hestitate, even for a split-second, which always throws your timing off. In the two fights I mentioned (and especially the very dangerous and undefeated slugger Corrales), Floyd planted when he shifted, and that is when a guy like him gets full power. (Two other examples are Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali. Not bad company. This is not to say that this puts Mayweather on their over-all level, but it is a natural ability that very few have, and that can not be taught.)

If Mayweather uses this more, it will improve his ranking by the majority of boxing historians. And fans will enjoy his fights a lot more, as well.

[H2O Man]

3. Klitschko ....

Vitali has some advantages in size. And he takes a better punch that Wladimir. However, he is slower than his younger brother.

Arreola has not trained enough to lose some of the "spare tire" he has recently had when entering the ring. He needs to lose it. For one thing, if the fight goes more than four or five rounds, he will need to be in the best shape possible. Add to that, boxing is very much a psychological exercise: if you are soft around the middle, both your opponent and you know it. Your opponent gains confidence that you can't keep up a fast pace, and you have self-doubts. And third, to deal with the height and reach, Arreola needs to be able to bend his knees ("bobbing"), and move both up & down, and side-to-side at the waist ("weaving").

Sam Peter has never learned to bob & weave. Guys like Frazier and Tyson (at his best) could, and it allowed them to both avoid punches, and deliver their own with maximum impact. If you are soft in the belly, you not only can't do it for long, but you also slow down and lose your center of balance. Thus, your opponent can time his punches, knock you off balance, and keep you from delivering your punches.

Proper diet, road work, and hundreds of sit-ups. You just have to do them. (Rubin used to do 5,000 push-ups and 5,000 sit-ups a day. Not everyone can do that. But it's an example of the self-discipline needed to prepare for a tough fight.)

[JonLP24]

4. Just wanted to say

I've read these when you first posted them and found them to be very informative as well as interesting. I lack the knowledge of the sport to come up with a good reply but wanted to let you know I found them useful. 5,000 push-ups and 5,000 sit-ups is very impressive, that is amazing.

[H2O Man]

7. I try to add

my "Teddy Atlas' Fight Tips" on some of these threads. There are a few DUers who have ring experience, and are already know about these things, at least in general. But I intend them for the majority of the DU sports fans, who know that boxing involves much more than merely "street fighting," and who (I hope!) enjoy reading what a good trainer aims for. I have only a general grasp of most other sports -- definitely so, compared to others on the DU sports forum -- and I know that I enjoy and benefit from reading their insights on baseball, football, etc. I've been involved in boxing for almost 50 years now, so I hope that I havesome interesting insights for others here.

For example, on the "bobbing & weaving" .... if you think of a younger Mike Tyson, you will recall he had wonderful "upper-body movement." Being relatively short, with a short reach, he needed that to get inside under a jab. That put him in place to let loose with both hands, in his explosive combinations. And then, when an opponent leaned forward, he threw an intense upercut -- or, if the opponent leaned back and to the side, he delivered the left hook. The last punch in such a combination is always the "hardest." Everything leads up to it. And that is exactly what Chris Arreola has to do, in order to win. While a single punch from outside could knock Klitschko unconscious, it is 100 times more likely that the last punch, delivered in a combination inside, will hurt him. If Chris can hurt him, he can finish him.

[JonLP24]

9. Your insight is very valuable to me at least

Also the references to what many fighters did in the past to help explain the fighting styles today really makes reading your posts enjoyable. I'm surprised I don't see you doing commentary or as an analyst on Friday Night Fights. Ha. Being serious though.

I recall a few weeks ago a poster in GD was advocating a ban on boxing and MMA(though it's not my cup of tea, wouldn't want it banned) and his/her reasoning was the object was to beat the other person to a pulp in other words. I tried my best to defend it by saying something like those who try to land the big punches all the time would get beat and the object is to land the most punches as well as being accurate doing so and score the most points. Anyways, I'm learning more and these threads contribute to the vast majority of my knowledge.

[H2O Man]

11. One of the things

that I don't like are reports that Arreola is not training hard. He apparently is "skipping" days in the gym, and not working as hard as he should on quite a few of the days he is there. That is a sure sign of a combination of over-confidence, and a lack of discipline. These attributes rarely go long without a negative consequence.

In the 1980s, there were a group of heavyweights with great potential, and very real talent. But, because the heavyweights never have to worry about "making weight," they were not motivated to be in top shape once they reached the top ten rankings. Thus, they made what should have been "easy" fights tough, and what should have been tough wins, loses. Guys like Tony Tubbs, Greg Page, and especially Tim Witherspoon never reached the potential they showed early. (To be far, Witherspoon's conflict with Don King was also a factor that kept him from becoming recognized as one of history's better heavyweights.)

Regarding fight analysts: for some reason, televised boxing habitually puts on a different level of commentators than any other sport. If you watch football, for example, all of the announcers tend to know about the sport. With boxing, there is usually a color commentator, a clown, and sometimes an expert. Guys like Teddy Atlas, Bobby Czyz, the late Jerry Quarry, and Sean O'Grady -- all retired fighters -- have done well. Having connections with these four may render be less than objective. But while I was not at their level in the ring, I suspect that I'd be their equal at ringside. Personally, I think the viewing audience would prefer two or three guys who know the sport.

[JonLP24]

12. Your first paragraph

seems to go hand in hand with your post about preparing for a big fight. These days he is reported of "skipping" days may come back to haunt him.

I don't know the name of Teddy's co-commentator but it seems Teddy does most of the talking and his analysis is very helpful and entertaining as well. The way he uses analogies such as driving through a blizzard or having a fight against Bailey is like walking through a "bad neighborhood", referring to his right hand. then later on in the fight he said Urango made it to the phone booth and called up reinforcements and now it's Urango's neighborhood.

I know football has it's share of clowns, but maybe not to the extent as televised boxing. I remember Bob Costas of NBC and Mike Greenberg of ESPN both said shortly before the NFL playoffs of last year started they said the Arizona Cardinals is the worst team to ever make the playoffs. Now as a follower of this team that was flat out wrong, this was a far better Cardinals team then the Cardinals team that went into the playoffs in 1998. The 1998 season 7 of their 9 wins was by a mere 3 points or less and even that team beat the Irvin/Smith/Aikman Cowboys in convincing fashion but lost to one of the best offensive teams in history the Vikings 41-21. Last year's Cardinals won 6 games by over 10 points and 4 of those games they won by over 20 points. My point is to say the '08 team is the worst team to make the playoffs ever is ignoring history and they didn't look very smart after beating an 11-5 and 12-4(by 20 pts) teams and the Eagles to make it to the Super Bowl. Anyways sorry about that little rant there but sometimes these guys can make you scream at the TV when they say these things.

[JonLP24]

5. This is unusual to me

Marquez drinks his pee for fights

MANILA – Peculiar training regimens were brought out in the open during the second episode of HBO's Mayweather vs. Marquez 24/7, courtesy of Juan Manuel “Dinamita” Marquez.

The Mexican fighter detailed that he lifts rocks in the mountains, visits a hyperbaric chamber, eats raw quail eggs, and drinks his urine.

“I think that this has helped me. I’ve done it for the last five or six fights with good results,” said Marquez as quoted by FightHype.com’s Ben Thompson.

“I also drink my urine because that’s where a lot of proteins and vitamins are, part of your vitamin intake, and why not drink them again instead of wasting them,” added the current Ring Magazine, WBO and WBA lightweight champion.
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/sports/09/08/09/marquez-drinks-his-pee-fights

I hope that isn't too much information for you.

[H2O Man]

6. Many fighters try

to do things to psych themselves and their opponent. Ray Robinson drank cows' blood to give himself an edge against Jake LaMotta. He and many others -- included Marquez -- believe(d) that drinking raw eggs gave them strength.

When I watched Marquez preparing to drink some of his urine on HBO's 24/7, it appeared to me that he had trouble convincing himself this was a good idea. I think that gimmicks rarely work, and this one is nothing but that.

A fighter and/or his trainer should "taste" a drop of sweat every few days, in the weeks before a fight, to make sure it has the right amount of a salty taste. A fighter needs that. But no other body fluids are worth "consuming" to prepare properly!

[JonLP24]

8. That makes sense

I've known people to drink raw eggs for what they said for protein and that I can understand. Cow's blood is something else that is probably more unusual then what Marquez is doing. Marquez reasoning was he didn't want to waste vitamins but in reality it's probably just a gimmick to psyche out his opponent. I agree with you about consuming other bodily fluids though I don't know much about preparing for a fight.

[H2O Man]

10. Preparing for a big fight

properly takes at least eight weeks, and that is assuming that the fighter is always in "gym shape." Training involves two things: a fighter has to "peak" on the day of the fight, physically; and they have to be convinced that they are so well prepared, that it is impossible for them to lose.

Now, if you are preparing to fight a guy like Mayweather, that's difficult. The best fighters are smart -- in fact, these days, more and more are even well-educated in the formal sense. (They have to be, to make sure that they are being paid while active in their careers, to make investments to carry them after they retire, and frequently, for a career after boxing.) But "boxing smarts" also involves understanding the dynamics of boxing.

Marquez knows Floyd is undefeated for a reason. More, Floyd is younger, bigger, faster, and stronger. This is why it is so important to have him train in relative isolation. Away from the crowds, including family and friends. Alone on that mountain, running up it and throwing large rocks. That's good for getting in physical shape, and it's great for building his mental focus. He needs to honestly believe that when the fight is over, his hand will be raised in victory, no matter how improbable that may seem in the context of the group.

No one can train themselves as well as other trusted people can. There needs to be that bond of trust. This is why a great fighter such as Oscar de la Hoya, who changed trainers so frequently, never won a "super fight." And why Ray Leonard, after betraying the bond with Angelo Dundee, never won another important bout. They both had that lack of needed focus and confidence. And, I can say without question, when you get into the ring before the introductions, there is no place so lonely as that ring. Any doubt you have, and day that you took it easy training, is there with you; they become your only ally in the ring. The guy across the ring, who trained hard, and has a bond of trust with his trainer, can sense any doubt, like a dog smells fear.

Now, every boxer feels nervous. Actually, it's fear. The unprepared, unfocused fighter is destroyed by that fear. The properly trained fighter uses that energy as his fuel. And his trainer guides that. That is the single most important thing the trainer does, in my opinion.

You know, I can talk and talk and talk about this for ever. I love the psychology of boxing; it has helped me motivate other young athletes in high school sports. I think it can be applied to many aspects of life.