Vindicated- McGuire no HOF

[wilt the stilt]

A couple of month's ago I said he was no HOF player. Look's like I was right. No steroids no HOF numbers. Bonds is and should be a HOF. He had HOF numbers before Steroids.

[madinmaryland]

1. Hmmm. Pete Rose has HOF number before gambling and he is not in. nt

[Ter]

2. If Shoeless Joe Jackson has to wait 90+ years

So should Rose. He hung on 7 years too long to get those 4,200+ hits anyway.

[wilt the stilt]

4. you are wrong

Rose didn't hang on.

.325-1981
.271-1982
.245-1983
.295-1984

with the exception of the .245 very respectable.

[Ter]

5. Where's 1985 and 1986?

7 home runs from 1980-1987 is horrible. Hit totals last few years:

1983: 121
1984: 107
1985: 107
1986: 52

I'll retract a bit. Four years too long. Rose is very good and HOF by far without the gambling. But he also does have the most at-bats ever. for someone with 4,256 at-bats, a lifetime .302 average is ehh. Great player, but not the top of the top. Hope Jeter breaks his hits record.

[wilt the stilt]

9. He was never a HR hitter

He was a singles hitter He was going after an incredible record and he hit almost .300 in '84. Anyone would have held on for that. The mere fact that you mentioned hr''s shows your lack of knowledge. I love Jeter but I don't think he gets there.

[Ter]

12. Of course I know he was never a HR hitter

But 7 in 7 years is just pathetic, much worse than his HR totals in previous years. Rose is usually not considered a top 20-30 player, and certainly the worst member of the 4,000 hits club.

[wilt the stilt]

3. Rose belongs

and he is one of my favorite players of all time.

[trumad]

6. You gamble on your team when you're the Manager

you pay the consequences.

[madinmaryland]

13. Bullshit tru. He gambled as a manager. His player numbers are serious

HoF numbers. He gets in as a player. If you are going to include what players did after they finished playing, then why is OJ in the HoF after he killed* two people and robbed a group of others.

[Ter]

14. Nlo way he goes in before Shoeless Joe Jasckson

[madinmaryland]

15. I agree with you TER in regards to Shoeless Joe Jackson. He should definitely be in.

[trumad]

18. You can't be serious....

The Manager is on the team....correct? The Manager needs to abide by MLB rules...correct?

Now tell me something.... Who would have more of an impact on how a team plays on a given day???? The Manager. Pitching decisions....fielding decisions, and on and on.

The integrity of the game is hugely compromised when players and managers make bets on their own teams or get payoffs for influencing the outcome of the game.

The OJ thing has nothing to do with Rose and Baseball. OJ didn't kill these people when he was in football... he killed years later--- OJ was in the HOF before he killed..

Again---The rule clearly states that if you are an active member of the MLB, you cannot bet on baseball games... Rose broke that rule and now he's paying the consequences.

[trumad]

7. So-if you put Bond's in the HOF

Do you only use his pre-cheat numbers/Stats?

[wilt the stilt]

10. He's the best player of the era

The other great player is Griffey. Both of these guys are HOF players. I do respect Griffey more but I better understand why Barry did steroids. His ego couldn't stand lesser players bigger numbers and headlines than him. He is human.

[Capt. America]

8. No Sosa, No Barroid.

[joeybee12]

11. Ok, so you're saying Bonds had the numbers before the roids, which

means you know when he started taking the roids.

that said, no HOF for Bonds, there's the consideration of bringing disrespect to the game, which that POS did over and over.

[wilt the stilt]

16. I think he was a great and talented player

You are probably the kind of guy who thinks Aaron was better than Mays and Boggs was better than Rose.

[trumad]

17. Question is Wilt---

Do you think Barry cheated?

[wilt the stilt]

20. I said in an earlier post

that he did steroids. he still was the best player of the era.

[trumad]

24. I believe that Bonds before he started cheating was the best player of his era.

After--- no way.

[joeybee12]

19. I'm just saying we have no idea when he started juicing...I tend to agree

he probably didn't until later, like Clemens, and like Clemens, he didn't need to to get into the HOF...however, there is no way to know for sure when he started -- when the cut-off date is for pre-steroids stats and post-steroid stats.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. Slippery Slope, Huh Joey?

I completely agree with you.

Exactly how would one decide just what that cut-off date is? To a day? Month? Season? If Wilt is willing to let Bonds in, he should be willing to let any 'roid player in the Hall. There isn't a way to prove, one way or the other, when the juicers started juicing. He says Bonds did enough to get in before he started juicing. How do we prove he didn't juice earlier than we thought?
GAC

[joeybee12]

22. And if he "comes clean" now after years of denial and says he started

on such and such a date, are we going to believe him now after lying all those years?

[ProfessorGAC]

23. Exactly!

There's just no way to do it. So, if one takes a position about no juicers in the HoF, it has to be absolute. If it's not absolute, then it's just a wild guess as to which numbers were "legit".
GAC

[wilt the stilt]

25. Bomd's was great before roids

and even better after.
McGwire and Clemens were basically done especially Clemens. Once you lose your fastball you never get it back. I can't name a fastball pitcher who ever regained his fastball after he lost it. Clemens was done by '94 as was McGwire.

[ProfessorGAC]

26. Prove It

Boy, way to miss the point. You are really dumb or just willfully obtuse?

The point of my post is that neither you nor i can ever prove WHEN someone started using, so we can never know which pieces of the career are "legit".

If that's not clear enough now, that's on you.
GAC

[wilt the stilt]

27. I know most of you hate bonds

and he is a pretty despicable person but to deny that he was a great player I personally thinks make you look foolish and petty. He was an enormously gifted player(much better than his dad)and could do it all. Was he a jerk-yes. Is he a jerk-yes. Was he the best player- yes.

I personally think it would have been difficult not to use steroids. most competitive athletes would do steroids just to stay even. I think Conseco is correct. Most did.

Cheating has been part of baseball since the beginning of time.

Pitchers used spitballs and any means to gain an advantage.

Elston Howard marked Whitey ford's baseball.-HOF

Gaylord Perry- notorious doctor of baseballs- HOF.

Corking bats have been going on forever.

1951-Leo Durocher-HOF stealing signs

Do I need to go on?

[Onceuponalife]

28. Comparing stealing signs to juicing? Are you out of your mind?

Stealing signs is an honorable part of baseball. There's nothing wrong with that. It's up to the other team to conceal their signs if they don't want them stolen.

And learn to spell McGwire's name right. Sheesh.

[wilt the stilt]

29. really no comparison

read about the 1951 pennant race and how it is viewed. That was not stealing signs by the on field people. These were by outside forces in the outfield and it is viewed very poorly in the eyes of most experts and ballplayers. It only cost the dodgers the pennant. I guess costing a team a pennant is small potatoes.