Jim Thome quietly passes Mark McGwire* in all-time home runs

[Auggie]

A few days ago -- September 3rd. Congrats Jim!

762 Barry Bonds*
755 Hank Aaron
714 Babe Ruth
660 Willie Mays
630 Ken Griffey
609 Sammy Sosa*
604 Alex Rodriguez*
586 Frank Robinson
584 Jim Thome
583 Mark McGwire*

[trumad]

1. Good---

and he did it clean.

[Upton]

2. Are you sure there shouldn't be a *?

The following was written in early 2009. Now, I'm not saying Thome is or was dirty, but it's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. After all, he did play in the steroid era.

In his first seven seasons with Cleveland, Jim Thome averaged 32 home runs a year. Respectable numbers at the dish, and certainly enough to make him a prominent hitter in the major leagues. In the 2001 season, however, Thome's production increased greatly (seemed to be a very popular time for hitters to start producing).

Despite averaging 32 home runs a year for his first six season, Thome, at the age of 31, clubbed 190 home runs over the next four seasons.

What makes the case more compelling is Thome's last two years of production following the previously mentioned offensive outbreak. When steroids hit the front page, several baseball players immediately cycled off in fear of testing positive.

Thome might not have been one of these players, but the statistics suggest it's possible. Over the last two years, Thome has hit no more than 35 home runs and driven in no more than 100 runs, culminating in a paltry .245 batting average last season.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/122150-the-alex-rodriguez-steroids-fallout-10-hitters-who-could-be-in-the-remaining-103#page/8

[Auggie]

3. I don't agree with that link

Over the last two years, Thome has hit no more than 35 home runs and driven in no more than 100 runs, culminating in a paltry .245 batting average last season.

He just turned 40 August 27th. Two years prior to 2009 he was 37.

He got old.

[Upton]

4. Okay..what about the spike in production?

Up until 2001, Thome had never hit more than 40 HR, averaging 32 for his 10 year career. Then suddenly in 2001, at the age of 31, he has HR years of 49,52,47, and 42...

That kind of increase in power into his thirties is hard to explain. No matter how much you want it not to be true, those kind of numbers have to raise doubts.

[madinmaryland]

5. Nice flip-flop!

[Auggie]

6. So much can influence a ballplayer's stats, you know?

Maybe he was coached differently? Maybe he decided to hit for power instead of average? Maybe he had been playing hurt? Maybe because he was playing for good teams?

I think someone like Jose Canseco would have spilled the beans long ago had Thome been juiced.

[Upton]

7. I'm not claiming Thome is a bad guy

he's had a tremendous career. I think he probably just got caught up doing what everybody else was doing. I've come to the conclusion that just about everybody was using during that era.

[trumad]

8. WOW! You are a piece of work...

Do you ever see the irony in your comments when it comes to Steroids?

Do you ever say to yourself that you have no credibility when it comes to discussing Steroids in the MLB?

You can post innuendos about Jim Thome and infer that because Thome's home run count jumped 10 to 15 HR's ---he must have been doing the juice....

BUT--- you never said the same about Barry Bonds--- and his production late in his career jumped to over 30 additional HR's per season.

Over and over and over you and your side kick Cboy defended Bonds at every turn. You made your claim to fame here on DU doing just that.

Not once did you say that Bonds had to be juicing to hit those numbers.

Oh but now you're claiming that "everybody was using during that era". ---- Is that you mea cupla regarding Bonds---is that how you're going to play it?

Is this you now saying that Bonds did it---but so did everyone else?

I've asked you a hundred times--- Did Barry Bonds juice during his record breaking seasons?--- and not once have have you answered yes or no.

So I'll ask you again----

Did Barry Bonds juice during his record breaking seasons?

[Upton]

9. My previous defense of Bonds

in no way invalidates my argument for Thome's use...I think the numbers speak for themselves. Which, btw, is exactly what I told you about Bonds in the past. However, since you need things spelled out for you, I now believe ALL the power hitters from that era used in one form or another at one time or another...that includes Bonds, Thome, and even Griffey..

Now go back to searching for cboy.

[trumad]

10. WOW!

So you're admitting---finally--- that Barry Bonds used Steroids?

Here's an entire thread that highlights your denial about Bonds.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=215x99932

There are hundreds of comments from you and your sidekick defending Bonds---

I encourage all who are reading this thread to click on the link I've provided to witness douchenicity at it's finest.

[trumad]

12. of course there's always more...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=215&topic_id=86945&mesg_id=86967

[Auggie]

11. Tell me why it isn't possible for Jim Thome to accomplish

the same home run numbers as Frank Robinson?

[Upton]

13. I suppose anything is possible Auggie..

but from 1995-2000, playing full time in Cleveland, Thome averaged 33.8 HR per year. From 2001-2003, the first two years still in Cleveland, his HR average jumped to 49.3 a year.

1995-2000: 33.8 HR per year

2001-2003: 49.3 HR per year

Like I said, the numbers speak for themselves. I can find nothing that would logically explain a spike like that. You can't tell me seriously, that if nothing else, a sudden power increase like that while Thome was well into his thirties, doesn't at least have to to make you think.

[trumad]

15. Why don't you do a breakdown of Bonds like you just did with Thome?

Not once have you done that with Bonds? Why not?

Thome's increased numbers dwarf the numbers Bonds put up at the end.

[Auggie]

17. Robinson's numbers spiked when he turned 31

He hit 49 home runs in 1966, 16 more than in 1965.

Ruth's numbers spiked from age 31 through 33, when he hit 47, 60 and 54 (1926, 1927, 1928)

Willie Mays, from age 31 through 34, hit 49, 38, 47, 52 (1962, 1963, 1954, 1965)

...a sudden power increase like that while Thome was well into his thirties, doesn't at least have to to make you think...

Yeah right... It makes me think Jim Thome is one of the great home run hitters of all time.

------------

I'm finished here

[Upton]

19. Fair enough..

though I would point out that Mays had big HR years in the past. For example, he hit 51 in 1955. Thome had never hit more that 40 in his entire 10 year career until his sudden 2001-2003 run of 49, 52, and 47.

We may never know for sure, but it's certainly food for thought.

[trumad]

14. You have to understand one thing about Upton...

The dude at the beginning championed Bonds as an innocent man and that BB was being singled out by the haters--- his words not mine.

There is ample evidence here on DU of him and his buddy Cboy4 defending BB at every turn.

Upton made his rep here as the sock puppet to Cboy4 and we old-timers who witnessed the two of them harmonize about their hero BB... well--- we'll simply not let them get away with an attempted revision of the past.

So--- what he is now doing now is claiming that all power hitters of that era used steroids and all that Barry did was level the playing field.

So--- when a guy like Thome nears an HR milestone--- Upton will quickly throw the accusation out that Thome may have used--- to simply lesson the impact that BB used.

Upton's agenda is quite obvious.

[Upton]

16. That's some great amatuer detective work..

you've things all figured out.:eyes: Sort of like your effort on the NY freeway exit and that mysterious parking pass. You're funny.

Oh, and I'm not attempting to revise the past, I've simply changed my mind. Though I do still believe Bonds was the victim of a witch hunt, as he was made into a poster boy for all that was wrong with the steroid era. While others were allowed to slide. He's also still innocent of perjury until proven guilty...that's the law.

Btw, you don't like it, that's too damn bad..

[trumad]

20. You've "simply" changed your mind?

Oh that's rich...

Countless posts defending BB and blasting anyone who dare say he juiced... and now you "simply" change your mind.

[Auggie]

18. See my post number 17

[Forkboy]

21. Great thread!

Classic smackdown. :)