Most overrated unbreakable sports records?

[taterguy]

I'd have to go with John Wooden's NCAA titles. I respect Wooden and his run was impressive but:

FACT 1: He got a lot of those titles because California integrated before the South. If Earl Monroe ends up at Kentucky, Duke or UNC instead of Winston-Salem State then at least 2 and probably 3 of Wooden's titles go to whichever school Monroe is playing for. Wooden's vaunted system couldn't do jack shit against an unstoppable offensive force with a capable supporting cast. (See 1974 Finals v. David Thompson which is probably why Wooden retired the next year)

FACT 2: His players got paid. Lew Alcindor could have gone anywhere. He was/is a smart guy. He went for the green. You believe otherwise then I've got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. Seriously, Wooden's winning percentage went way up when wealthy alums took an active interest in the program.

I'll give Wooden his first title and the pair he won with Bill Walton. That gives him three titles which makes him just one of many very capable coaches, not the patron saint of hoops.

What say you?

[wilt the stilt]

1. Earl Monroe

is from Philadelphia. There are any number of northern teams that could have taken him. Houston had Elvin Hayes and Don Chaney. Two very good pros. zthe team with Wat Hazzard and Gail Goodrich was very undersized. Do I need to continue?

[taterguy]

2. I conceded the Walt Hazzard title and Houston lost to a pro UCLA team

I stand by my statement that Duke, UNC or UK + the Pearl = multiple championships. (Maybe not UNC since Dean Smith had a knack for losing when he had the most talented team in the country)

[wilt the stilt]

3. name the pros on the UCLA team

that played Houston

Mike Warren-no
Lynn Shackleford- no
Better yet. Houston beat UCLA that year. I watched the game. Wooden played a box and one and beat them in the NCAA. These teams were pretty even Walton's teams were more dominant and had better talent than the Jabbar teams. It was after Jabbar left and they had Steve Patterson as center. That was a way better coaching job and the final year when the won with Dave Meyers and beat a supremely talented Louisville team. Those were great coaching jobs.

[MadBadger]

4. Cy young's 511 wins

Pitchers dont pitch like everyday anymore

[hughee99]

5. Do you think a pitcher today could even throw that many innings?

On the one hand, Young had a ton more opportunities, but on the other, he had to pitch the innings. None of these "extra day of rest", "dead arm", and "skipping a start to work on mechanics". While I do understand that this gaudy number is based on opportunities, I'm not sure that any modern day stud starter given the same opportunity would even come close.

[AntawnB]

9. Old Hoss Radbourn...

Old Hoss could do it. 1884 was a season to remember. you know how many wins he had over a two year stretch? I knew you did.

[hughee99]

10. Funny you should mention that, as his name came up in conversation

over the weekend (we also discussed how Ed Delahanty died, another interesting story). I know he won 59 games that year. I think he won another 40-something the following year.

Could you imagine any TWO modern pitchers combining for that many innings in a season?

[terryg11]

6. didnt they pitch underhanded back then?

;-)
different game back then, just go up there and throw, not really concerned about speed. team defense key, obviously

[ProfessorGAC]

7. And A Soft, Mushy Ball. . .

. . .that got softer and mushier as the game went on. Still, Cy did win a lot of games with some pretty bad teams, so he must have had something.
GAC

[AntawnB]

8. Cy young's record is...

Unbreakable to the point of irrelevancy. Also Joe DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak is overrated as it really doesn't demonstrate production, but luck. if a player goes 1 for 4 for 56 straight games, big deal. I'd rather have a guy that hits .370 over a 56 game stretch with 24 HR and 62 RBI.

[Renew Deal]

12. It's so lucky that no one has ever come close to breaking it.

:shrug:

[hughee99]

13. Well if it were strictly skill, you'd expect Dimaggio to have

a bunch of 30+ game hitting streaks, but this is his only one. Being a good hitter certainly helps, but doing it for this many consecutive days takes a tremendous amount of luck.

[wilt the stilt]

15. do some research

Ty Cobb only had one hitting streak greater than 30 and Pete Rose only had one. Do you think those guys could hit?

[hughee99]

17. I'm not suggesting they couldn't hit, in fact, that's my point.

These guys were great hitters for a long period of time and yet only managed to do this once in their entire career. I'm suggesting that luck played a major factor in this. If it were mostly skill, you would expect great hitters to have done this several times in their career. Game to game streaks of any kind are largely about luck, as each game has too small a sample size (3-5 at bats) for ones true skill to show through on that consistent a basis.

[wilt the stilt]

19. It is quite honerstly the most unbelievable record

of all time and will never be broken. It is not overrated.

[hughee99]

21. I agree that it is unbelievable and will never be broken,

largely because luck played a significant role. When discussing records, are the more impressive records the ones based on largely on skill (Cobbs .367 career average for more than 3000 games), luck (a 56 game hitting streak), or opportunity (511 career wins)?

[JonLP24]

28. He had a 61-game hitting streak in the Minors

I know it's the minors but only 1 had a better hitting streak than DiMaggio. I say he is pretty good at hitting streaks.

[wilt the stilt]

14. you know nothing about Dimaggio or baseball

He may be the greatest power hitter of all time in this regard,he never struck out. He averaged a HR for every strike out in his career. Even the great Ted Williams averaged more than 1.5 strikeouts to HR's. No one and I mean no one is even close. This is unique among power hitters.

He also had a very high lifetime average(.326)a and is considered one of the greatest fielders of all time. Willie mays copied himself after Joe Dimaggio

In the 56 game hitting streak he batted .408 and after 2 hard hit balls were stopped and ended his batting streak he went on another 16 game hitting streak. Learn something before you speak.

[hughee99]

20. Ted williams hit 525 home runs, and struck out 709 times

by my count, that's less than 1.5 (1.35 actually). Williams batted .406 for the entire season that year, and didn't have a hit streak of even 30 games. In fact his career average was .344, a good bit higher than Dimaggio's .325, and never had a 30 game streak even once. If were mostly about skill, you would expect the person with the higher average (more hits per AB) to have the longer streak, but that's not the case.

[wilt the stilt]

22. 521 close enough

but still more than one to one and Dimaggio was by far the greater clutch player, better and better fielder. Dimaggio was the better all around player.

[hughee99]

23. Sorry, I was reading williams doubles.

As far as the discussion of the hitting streak goes, who was a better overall player is irrelevant, and if having a 56 game hitting streak was mostly about skill (and not luck), why was he unable to even come close to this again? I'm not arguing that he wasn't a great player at all, I'm just saying that luck plays a huge role in this sort of achievement.

[Awsi Dooger]

11. Secretariat's Belmont

It was run on a freeway fast track. Track records were falling like rain drops. Secretariat's was one of eight main track records set at Belmont in the spring and summer of 1973. No less than five of those records were set between May 19 (Preakness day) and June 9 (Belmont day). When I started handicapping horses using speed ratings in spring 1980, 7 of those 8 track records were still standing. I've never seen anything like it in 30 subsequent years, a small window with records monopolized at a major track and withstanding year after year of attempts to lower them. When something like that happens in speed skating or swimming, the venue is naturally scrutinized and understood as the key variable. Somehow it's ignored in relation to Belmont and 1973.

Also, the 31 length margin is fraudulent, inflated by several lengths minimum. The place horse arrived 4.73 seconds later. Only in fantasy land does that equate to 31 lengths. Belmont was confronted with a situation it was not ready for and slapped together an official chart that makes no sense, contradictions galore. They want us to believe Secretariat gained 10 lengths on Twice a Prince while finishing in an excellent but not other worldly 25 seconds for his final quarter. Then somehow Twice a Prince turns on the warp speed once Secretariat crosses the finish line and dashes 31 lengths in 4.73 seconds, a young mediocre 3 year old stumbling home at the end of a mile and a half.

Besides, 2:24 for a mile and a half is terrific but not unthinkably awesome. It's very uniform compared to other dirt records. The dirt 1 1/4 record is 1:57 4/5, a full 26 1/5 lower. And the seldom contested 1 3/4 distance record is 2:50 2/5, which is 26 2/5 above Secretariat's number. The way that 1973 Belmont is treated in mythology you would think Secretariat took 2 or 4 seconds off the logical distribution for 1 1/2 miles.

[TZ]

16. So the reason that record still stands at Belmont is?

What? They've deliberately slowed down the track? I think that the closest anyone has gotten is about 1 second. Are you REALLY going to tell me in 30 years there have never been lightning fast conditions at the Belmont?
I don't know WHY you hate on Secretariat. There is nothing that doesn't indicate he's one of the greatest horses in the last 40 years if not ever.

[trumad]

25. Actually Awsi is dead on with his facts...

It don't mean he hates the horse...he's just listing the Belmont run as overrated.

[El Supremo]

18. These are the most overated now. I hope they are broken soon.

* Home runs in a single season (73), 2001
* Home runs against different pitchers (449)
* Home runs since turning 40 years old (74)
* Home runs in the year he turned 43 years old (28)
* Consecutive seasons with 30 or more home runs (13), 1992–2004
* Slugging percentage in a single season (.863), 2001
* Slugging percentage in a World Series (1.294), 2002
* Consecutive seasons with .600 slugging percentage or higher (8), 1998–2005
* On-base percentage in a single season (.609), 2004
* Walks in a single season (232), 2004
* Intentional walks in a single season (120), 2004
* Consecutive games with a walk (18)
* MVP awards (7—closest competitors trail with 3), 1990, 1992–93, 2001–04
* Consecutive MVP awards (4), 2001–04
* National League Player of the Month selections (13—2nd place: 8 - Frank Thomas; 2nd place (N.L.) - George Foster, Pete Rose and Dale Murphy)
* Oldest player (age 38) to win the National League batting title (.370) for the first time, 2002

[hughee99]

24. Does the same person happen to hold all of these (wink, wink)?

:popcorn:

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. I guess the most overrated unbreakable sports record WAS Sandy Koufax's four no-hitters.

As a baseball player growing up in the 60's-70's, I always heard THAT was the record which would never be broken.

Nolan Ryan is my hero. HIS is the record that no one will ever touch.

[wilt the stilt]

27. Now Ryan was an overrated pitcher

over his career he was inconsistent. 324-292 only plus 32 for his career. great one day and wild the next. I'll take Seaver any day.