Age Limits in Professional Sports. Your thoughts?

[Sandpiper]

The NBA announced today that it would impose a new over 19 age limit for eligibility (to herd the HS players onto the NCAA plantation).

With that in mind, for those who like sports, what are your thoughts on artificial age limits in professional sports? The only major sports that seem to practice them are the NFL (20) and NBA (19). Now, one can't help but notice that the two leagues that have such rules are predominantly black, as Jermaine O'Neal inarticulately pointed out.

That being said, I can't help but think that the reason for this is at least partially motivated by paternalistic notions of needing to "protect the black kids" because they're "too young, not ready, and need to college and get an education."

Meanwhile, in other sports:

Pele - pro soccer player at 16, World Cup winner at 17
Wayne Gretzky - pro hockey player at 17
Alex Rodriguez - pro baseball player at 18
Andre Agassi - pro tennis player at 16
Pete Sampras - pro tennis player at 17


My feeling is, if they're good enough to play, let them play. Sure, most of them haven't reached their prime, but there are plenty of guys in sports who are past their prime, and I don't hear any push for a maximum age limit.

[ollie79]

1. point

I think for some professional sports age limits might be good. NFL for example, a 17 or 18 year old kid could get killed. It's not just about body strength but learning the proper fundamentals, so some college would be valuable.

[Sanity Claws]

2. Actually the two leagues that have the age requirements

use the colleges as their minor leagues. The NBA and NFL want the colleges to test out the players and weed out the lesser ones. It's easier to judge the potential of the players once they've played in college, rather than while they're still in high school. I don't think paternalism has anything to do with it. As for removing the minimum age requirement, I have no problem with it. I think colleges should be more involved in academics than being proving grounds for professional athletes.

[Sandpiper]

3. You've just highlighted the problem I have

With the NFL and NBA.

Their rules in effect force players into an unpaid minor league system, where they don't see a dime of the revenue they generate, and risk injuries that could literally cost them millions of dollars.

[Sanity Claws]

4. Their compensation is the education

That's assuming they are there on scholarship. I agree with you that it doesn't sound right.

[jakefrep]

5. The NBA and NFL should start footing the bill...

for the scholarships of these players. They've freeloaded for far too long.

[rinsd]

6. The NFL/NBA or the players?

I would say the colleges like the arrangement since it brings them alot of money.

[jakefrep]

10. The NFL/NBA

a)they're the ones getting the benefit of a free minor-league system and
b)most college athletic programs lose money overall.

[democracyindanger]

7. I see that as a problem with the NCAA, not the NFL or NBA

Universities make millions of dollars off their programs. I think academics should be first and foremost, but the NCAA's regulations are, by and large, dated, unrealistic and unfair.

[Sandpiper]

8. But the NFL and NBA with their age limits

Are colluding with the practice.

[democracyindanger]

9. True, but the first responsibility is with the NCAA

They're the organization that's supposed to be watching out for the welfare of their athletes. I don't disagree that the NFL and NBA bear some responsibility, I'm just saying that the blame lays with the NCAA first and foremost.

[Ravenseye]

11. Variety of Factors

There are almost no 18 year old HS graduates who would be able to make it in the NFL. It just wouldn't happen. They need to get through at least a couple years of college competition, and finish growing, before they have a good chance.

Hockey is simliar in some respects. It's very physical and most 18 year olds simply can't compete, even first round draft picks often spend a year or two in the minor leagues, some four or five, before they're ready for the NHL.

The difference is that they get paid, and occasionally are brought up to play a few games for the big club. College football is a tradition in this country and because of that tradition, prevents a minor league from forming. I think that a similiar system would work well for the NFL as has worked for other sports with minor league systems. Particularly because if a player gets cut from a team he might sit for a year before he gets picked up and gets to play because of injuries. Each NFL team should have a minor league team in a smaller non-NFL city, that plays say during the weeks in the evenings and woudl allow players to go up and down depending. College football prevents a minor league system from truly forming though.

As far as the NBA we're looking at a similiar problem. The minor league system is called the NCAA.

Baseball and Hockey draft young because they have minor league systems, World Soccer has a plethora of minor leagues, and tennis is an individual sport.

I'm against artificial age limits, but I think both Football and Basketball need to branch out from college and form comparable minor league systems to hockey and baseball.

[northzax]

15. basketball in essence has a minor league system

it's called Europe and Asia. That's where the 18 year olds will go, instead of playing in Des Moines Class A, they'll be in Dubrovnik. And it'll be good for the game.

[lazarus]

19. That would be great for the game

if they learn the Euro style, instead of polluting it.

You know, play some fundamental team basketball, instead of thinking the NBA is just a bigger, richer And-1 tourney.

[Ravenseye]

20. It's not really the same though

Heck even football has NFL Europe. Yes there are basketball leagues going on over in Europe. I actually have a friend who works for one of them. They just dont' operate the same. Yes some players do go over there, but really the numbers of players groomed in Europe for basketball dont' compare to minor league baseball and hockey in the states. It happens sure, but it's not a regular thing.

[DrGonzoLives]

12. Age discrimination

You cannot prevent a qualified candidate from trying to get a job based solely on their age. For the NFL, there's no problem - high schoolers won't be qualified (i.e., won't be drafted). The NBA is clearly different - some high schoolers are qualified.

[northzax]

16. if you define the qualification as being age-related

then yes you can.

you have to be 16 to drive, not a lot of 18 year olds flying for United, you have to be 17 to enlist in the military, yhou can't get a CDL until 18- lots of random age requirements. And there are maximum ages, many companies have mandatory retirement ages, as long as it's consistent, it's legal.

[DrGonzoLives]

27. For all the jobs you mention

There are further qualifications.

First of all, driving isn't a job, it is a privilege conferred by the government. That analogy doesn't even hold.

Commercial driver's license requires further testing, and, technically, you only need it if you are doing commercial driving. No truck driving company is going to hire you without it - it has nothing to do with age.

As for a pilot, there's quite a bit of training involved there. Once again, qualification.

If there were an 18 year old who was fully trained to fly a 747, why should he be disqualified because he's 18? If they did that to a 50-year-old, the people here who support the NBA's decision would be howling.

[northzax]

28. driving a truck isn't a job?

I think there are some people who might disagree with you there.

what if they disqualified a 70 year old from flying a 747? is that ok? 80? 90?

[DrGonzoLives]

31. Don't put words in my mouth

The point, which flew right over your head, apparently, is that the trucking company isn't discriminating against the kid - it's the fact that the kid can't get a CDL license yet.

As for your little strawman argument, it depends - does the 70-year-old have the qualifications, including physical ones (i.e., good eyesight)?

[northzax]

34. irrelevant, actually

private companies, and the NBA is a private corporation, can install age requirements, if they so wish, and if they are applied to everyone. It can be very difficult to distinguish between someone capable of doing the job, and someone who isn't without extensive testing, so they are allowed to put an age limit on it and enforce it on everyone. Bad luck for some people who are outliers and remain qualified, but the corporation can install those age limits. I would argue that it is even constitutional, since the constitution imposes age limits on elected representatives. By the way, there are few, if any trucking companies that will hire someone to drive big rigs without at least 3 years experience, isn't that an effective age limitation? or since it is couched in 'experience' they're ok? Many require drivers to be 21 as well.

The US Military, for instance, has age limits. Both Minimum and Maximum.

[ProfessorGAC]

13. I'm Ok With It

The exceptions are obvious, and you are right. The problem is that seeing a Lebron hit the pros makes thousands of other kids deluded and fall prey to people who give them horrible advice in hopes of cashing in.

It's ruining more kids than it's helping by leaps and bounds.

This isn't unique. The petro, chem, and transporation industries all have age limits for jobs. They have educational and/or licensing requirements, too. How would you feel if the NBA had said "In order to be sure that all our players have sufficient life experience and training, everyone should have at least 2 years of community college." Now, it's not an age limit, it's an educational requirement. Industries do it all the time. Why not sports?

I do think the NBA should fund a true minor league system so that those who aren't college bound still can play for a living, just at lower wages, until their ready to make the big bucks, because they truly are good enough to do it at the highest level. Then, you haven't completely stopped someone from pursuing their career, but you do give the less mature 17 to 19 year olds a chance to learn what it means to have employment, responsibilities and obligations. I think they'll be better off for it, whether they make it all the way to the NBA or not.

The Professor

[lazarus]

14. The problem with the age limit as set in the NBA

is that it's too low, if you're going to have a limit. Either roll it back to 18, or hike it up to 20.

At 19, I guarantee you we'll be seeing parents holding their retirement funds, excuse me, beloved children who just want to play basketball back a year, so they'll be 19 when they graduate.

[northzax]

17. holding them back a year is not a bad thing

or a post graduate year somewher, not bad at all. What I think you'll see is international clubs signing NBA release contracts, much like Canadian Junior Hockey (you can get out of those contracts only for the NHL) would it really be so bad for the next Kwame Brown to spend a year or two in Rome? better than warming the pine here.

plus, the expansion of rosters to 14 means you can spend more time working on a kid, basically pick up a Crash Davis type to do nothing but babysit for a year or two, and you're not really giving up that valuable of a roster spot.

[lazarus]

18. Also

expanding the NBDL and lowering the age limit there to 18 opens up some possibilities. Would anyone argue that Darko could have gotten a lot more out of actual playing time in the NBDL, rather than riding the pines under Larry "I don't play rookies" Brown?

Here's an odd thing, though. If I read it correctly, the age limit doesn't apply to foreign players. They can still come over at 18. Does this lend credence to the racism charges levied early in the negotiation process?

[erpowers]

22. To a Degree No

Although I believe there is some hypocrisy in the NBA age limit issue I do not see racism in this. I would think the age limit would not apply the the foreign players in that they are playing on the foreign pro level by about the age of 16. Players like Tony Parker and Manu Ginoblie could have been on their country's national teams since the age of about 16 or younger. I know that Tony Parker played on the French National team since he was about 16. So the foreign kids get some pro playing time at a young age. The NBA should not have made the exception for foreign players, but it was not due to racism.

[northzax]

24. I hadn't seen that

and I don't really like it, they should have applied it across the board. Hey how's Darko doing in this series? :evilgrin:

I don't think it's racism, after all, the white ownership (except Bob johnson) just raised the salary cap and added two more roster spots, odds are those spots are going to black men, right? That's another 60 jobs, at an average salary of a million dollars+, and it gives people a better chance to clock enough time to get pension benefits.

[lazarus]

26. OTOH

I agree that Stern and the owners aren't racist, but the push to increase the age limit isn't coming from them.

It's coming from countless people on sports talk radio, etc., who have a problem with the NBA's "image". So they make a cosmetic change that won't really affect anything except keep a few kids from being able to cash in for an extra year.

Stern was talking about how this change wasn't just for skill development, but "life skills" development. Huh? I don't recall being told I needed an extra year of school before I could enlist or get a minimum wage job because I needed more 'life skills'. :shrug:

[erpowers]

30. Question

So, how do you feel about the supposed image problem of the NBA. Do you think it really has an image problem. What about other sports that do many of the same things as the NBA like constant brawl as in the MLB and hockey. It seems like people only talk about the image problem of the NBA and make a big deal of the things that happen in the NBA without pointing out that the same things happen in MLB and hockey on what could be said to be a more regular basis. I said this before in another post, but it seems to me that there are always big brawls in baseball and hockey. So what is your opinion on the subject.

[lazarus]

32. I think there is an image problem

It's very similar to the image problem the NBA had in the '70s, when it was considered a "black league" at a time when baseball and football were perceived as "white". And a lot of idiots aren't able to handle that.

It's purely perception, however. For instance, a lot of people talk about the weird hairstyles (e.g. cornrows) and tattoos. But the two people who most exemplify this are white: Scott Pollard's weirdo hair, and Cherokee Parks as the Tattooed Man. And the league is getting whiter all the time, with the influx of European players. But the primitives can't see that, of course.

I think the image of big black men hitting little white men scared some primitive minded people after the brawl in Auburn Hills.

And this racism has bubbled up through sports talk radio into the mainstream, losing its racist roots and appearing to simply be this undefined "image problem".

Oh, and hockey has always had fighting, and baseball's got 150 years of tradition that allow it to step over the line and back with less controversy.

[erpowers]

29. Do Not Think So

I do not think parents will do something like that and I hope they would not do that.

[lazarus]

33. based on what?

Parents of NBA prospects are already cashing in long before the contract is signed. Their kid is the cash cow. I don't doubt that many parents would do this. After all, they already move them all over the country to join these private "academies" that have national touring schedules and are televised on ESPN. How much study time do these kids get on the road?

[erpowers]

21. Good Idea but Hypocrisy

I contend it is a good idea, but it is laced with hypocrisy. It is not good that some of these kids come out of high school with the hope of going pro. Some of them do not get drafted and then cannot go to college to play there. This also puts them in a position of not being able to pay for college. It seems that the age limit may give these kids a better chance of being drafted and a better chance of getting some type of college education.

You may know that Nike along with Marion Jones exposed the hypocrisy of this issue with one of there commericals. In the commerical Jones going by the name Ms. Jones points out that many people are talking about the reason why Kobe Bryant should go to college instead of going to the pros. She then pointed out that nobody was making a fuss about the white kid who was going straight the baseball pros after high school. The list you listed in your post also shows the hypocrisy of the issue.

Many people made a big deal about teenager going from high school to the pros in relation to basketball. Basketball is full of African American who go straight from high school to pro basketball. However, people never make a big deal about the white kids who go from high sports to pro sports. If you did not know it happened you would think that all baseball player go to college and play baseball in college for four years. Many baseball players go straight from high school baseball to the either the minor league or the pros.

[northzax]

23. the strong development leagues

in MLB allow for more maturation, away from the spotlight. You have, say, the Orioles, sign top pick to a deal worth 10-15 million, and then ship him off to SW Galoshbuckle for seasoning. The average high school kid starts in A ball, riding a bus, staying in Motel 6s, eating a $50/day perdiem, playing in 2,000 seat stadiums that might have radio coverage. If the Wizards draft a number one pick, he's in the arena, day in and day out, the papers are asking "why isn't he doing more" the nightly sports report talks about him, everything is under a microscope.

a quiz for you:

name a first round pick from the last NFL draft.
name a first round pick from the last NBA draft.
name a first round pick from the last MLB draft.

I can do the first two, hell, I can come up with ten NFL draftees, easily, and I can name 10-15 potential draftees for this weekend's NBA draft. But I can't name one single MLB draftee. I follow MLB about as muc has I do football or basketball, if the number one MLB pick was sitting next to me on a bus, I would have no clue who he was. Anonymity gives time to grow up. the NBA doesn't have that. There are every few MLB players on big league rosters under the age of 24, in fact 62% of all rookies are between the ages of 23 and 25. http://mikesrants.baseballtoaster.com/archives/15610.html meanwhile the median age for an NBA rookie, on a squad, was just under 20. those are important four years, you know? I would actually like to see the NBA adopt MLB's draft policym where a player can get drafted and return to school, but the big league club owns his rights for a year.

[jakefrep]

25. I agree that basketball should adopt baseball's draft policy...

...but the NCAA would never allow that to happen. They seem to believe that maintaining a veneer of Victorian-era amateurism is essential to the marketability of their product.