This is why players holdout

[safi0]

I know a lot of Packer fans were upset with Javon Walker with his contract situation. But since he's torn his ACL and is out for the season this pretty much gives credibility to everything Drew Rosenhaus was saying. Javon's out for the season and who knows how someone like him who depends so much on speed and athleticism how he'll come back from this. If he's slow to come back next season he may never get the extension he was looking for from the Packers and in FA teams will probably lowball him.

[Oreo]

1. And Favre said he shouldn't hold out

Sunday's game was sad to watch. To me, it was the end of the Favre era. He should have gone out on top.

[safi0]

2. Living in Wisconsin

I have the utmost respect for Favre, but he was wrong in that situation. I'm sure a lot of Packers felt that what Javon was doing wasn't right, but only Bret openly talked about it. There's a reason for this, most athletes say there's an unwritten rule that you never publically discuss another players contract situation.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. Sorry, I still don't buy that.

If you think you're going to get better, sign a shorter contract. Otherwise, tough luck. Obviously, he thought this was the best he could do when he signed the deal originally. He didn't have to enter a multi-year deal. So he's going to make up for his poor business decision by refusing to accept it? Sorry, I'm not buying.

[safi0]

4. He signed

The deal as a rookie. If you know about rookie contracts you'd know that he and has agent have very little effect on what type of contract he gets as a rookie. It depends mainly on the money the same pick last year received and the contracts that the person in front of you and behind you signed. He did have to sign a multi-year contract, that is an undisputable fact.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. Those contracts are not set in stone.

Remember Ricky Williams' incentive laiden rookie contract?

Rookies sign those contracts because they are believed to be the best they can do, not because they are forced to.

[safi0]

13. Rickey Williams'

Rookie contract was one of the worst contracts ever signed by a professional athlete. Master P was his agent, for godsake. Rookie contracts have very little wiggle room are far as what you can make. I believe Javon was picked 21st overall, if the guy picked 20th got a contract that paid him 1.2 million annually and the guy picked 22nd got a deal that paid him 900K annually, Javon's contract would've been somewhere in the 300K in between there likely around 1.1 mill. annually. That's how you pretty much decide what a rookie makes. The wiggle room that you have is usually with structure and length.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

14. The point of bringing it up was to say

rookies are NOT forced to sign a specific contract by any means. Javon Walker took the contract he felt was best for him. He signed it. No one forced him to. Period, end of subject. It's HIS responsibility to live with it. I do not feel bad for him whatsoever.

And you say it yourself - "the wiggle room that you have is usually structure and length". Why didn't he sign a shorter contract so that he'd be able to renegotiate sooner? Because it WASN'T IN HIS BEST INTEREST!

[safi0]

17. The minimum length

Is four years, he signed for five. One year, thats what your whole arguement is. In the NFL a contract is much less binding than in all other leagues. Teams rotuinely cut players for whatever reason before there contracts are up, and they routinely re-negotiate or extend contracts before there up.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

19. One year is the entire problem!

Walker would be in the last year of his contract had he signed a 4 year deal instead of a 5. Instead of holding out for a completely restructured deal, he could be asking for an extension. There's a HUGE difference there.

And NFL contracts are made under the collective bargaining agreement signed by the NFL owners and the NFLPA.

[safi0]

21. If he was a

Free Agent this year, he would've gotten a terrible contract because he'd be coming off an ACL injury

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

24. Teams are much more willing to extend contracts than renegotiate

Walker probably would've gotten the Packers to sign a new deal before the season.

[safi0]

26. That's actually

Not true. There are certain orgnizations, that have the pre-1994 mentality, most notably the Packers and Eagles, who want to have there cake and eat it too. They love the fact that they can refuse to honor there side of the contract amd cut players for whatever reason but believe players shouldhold up there end.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

28. Players don't have to sign with those organizations.

Even players that are drafted can hold out for a year and re-enter the draft, or demand to be traded. See: Eli Manning or John Elway.

[safi0]

31. Get the reputation

As a malcontent and lose even more money

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

34. Yeah, Eli and Elway are truly hurting for money.

:sarcasm:

[safi0]

45. Eli's a freak situation

So that's not a good example to bring up. He got traded mainly because of his last name. If he didn't have that last name his stock would've dropped severely and Elway played during the USFL years where not only did he have baseball as an option, that was also an option

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

48. Elway didn't have a last name.

And last I checked, there is NFL Europe and Arena League Football.

[safi0]

51. NFL Europe

and Arena Football are not the same as the USFL was

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

54. They're still options.

They can still make money playing football while waiting for the opportunity to sign with another NFL team.

[safi0]

70. Come on

That's like saying working as a bagboy at Jewel Osco is a proper option while waiting for a job offer as a sfotware engineer from Microsoft

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

71. Not at all.

You can live quite comfortably on a AFL, CFL, or NFLE salary.

[safi0]

72. AFL, CFL yes

But not NFLE. The analogy I used was a little extreme, but if that software engineer got offered a job for $12/hr at Bestbuy that's enough for him to live off of, but I can tell you this unless he's desperate beyond belief he's not going to take that job.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

73. So the offer by the team that drafts a player, while not QUITE as much

as perhaps another offer by a different NFL team is still far more than he'd make elsewhere? Is this the point you hope I come to?

Am I to feel badly about this?

[safi0]

74. Draft picks

Are a completely different sitution than everything else. Eli Manning and John Elway didn't make there demands because of money, they did it because they didn't want to play for there respective teams

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

75. The point is that they exercised an available option.

No matter what the reasoning is, every player can exercise that same option. They don't because what they are receiving is still a damn good deal for them.

[safi0]

77. Like I said earlier

And get the reputation as a malcontent and watch there stock drop 4 rounds. Elway had the USFL and a legit. baseball career, Manning had his family name. Just about no players have that leverage.

After this debate with you I think its quite obvious to me that you have the pre-1994 mentality. You love it that your team can cut players for whatever reason, and whenever they want and not honor a contract. But when the player is in a similar situation its the end of the world. This is the NFL system, it is what it is, the NFL knew that holdouts and things like this would happen if they put in non-guranteed contracts and both sides were willing to live with it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

78. The only thing that's quite obvious

is that your heart is bleeding for the wrong people.

My heart bleeds for no one in this situation. No one is struggling through life here. Not even close.

[safi0]

79. By the way

I found out your whole arguement as to why players shouldn't holdout is pretty much bull. Rich McKay the current Atlanta Falcons GM is basically the guy who came up with the NFL CBA. He told the NFL owners and GM's that if they agreed to non-guranteed contracts that players would hold out for extensions when there contract had only 1 year left or when they felt there production had exceeded there paycheck and inferior players were getting more money. Knowing this NFL Front Office people just like the NFLPA agred to the deal.

[northzax]

61. don't forget Canada

the CFL is a reasonable option as well.

[Goblinmonger]

5. Maybe he wasn't in the best shape

due to not showing up at camp when he should have. Maybe his workouts didn't strengthen his leg muscles enough to stop the injury. I know, it was probably just a freak occurence, but who knows.

[safi0]

6. I don't buy

That at all. This was landing wrong on a hit. It had nothing to do with being in shape or not being in shape.

[Goblinmonger]

29. Sure

but you can't tell me that core strength doesn't come into play here. If he was in the shape he needed to be, his core might have put his leg in a different position or been able to absorb the shock.

[safi0]

33. You and I both

Know your grasping at straws here

[Goblinmonger]

36. Never said I wasn't

Actually, my original post said it was most likely a freaky occurrence. But don't tell me that core strength isn't important and don't tell me that players who hold out in the NFL miss out on a lot of that. Ask any coach how important core strength is, even to flexability, which might have played a role in Walker's injury.

I just have no sympathy for people who hold out. Walker's case was at least a little persuasive compared to TO, but Walker had not really proved himself as the superstar to the level that his manager was blowing smoke up his ass. If he doesn't like the money he's getting, he can come out here and get a job in the real world.

[safi0]

49. I wouldn't have

Sympathy for them either except the fact that the Front office people are even bigger assholes, these guys cut players for whatever reason they want. Like I said earlier if the front office poeple don't honor the contracts then players shouldn't be expected to either

[Bluzmann57]

7. The bottom line is that he had a signed contract

Everybody who plays football takes the risk of injury. Now if Walker can come back next year and do well, then he will have a right to bitch about money, assuming his contract is done. I will miss Walker as a Packer fan, but if you or I have a signed contract, we are expected to live up to it. Pro athletes should be no different.

[DaveinMD]

9. the system is warped

Teams can cut players at any time and don't have to pay the balance of the contract and can also threaten this to get players to renegotiate. But god forbid a player wants to renegotiate and the world is coming to an end.

[northzax]

16. not for a first rounder

who are the only people who sign multi-year deals. The real money is in signing bonuses, not salaries, which, although pro-rated over the life of the contract, are guaranteed.

Yes, it is in the best interest of teams to renegotiate contracts with players who exceed expectations, it keeps them happy and makes them look good to other players, someone will, perhaps be willing to sign a smaller deal with the knowledge that the team will take care of him, if he overperforms.

[ProfessorGAC]

37. Do The Players Know That When They Sign?

Yes, they do. They know the system. That's not the most compelling excuse for holding out.
The Professor

[DaveinMD]

38. they have no choice

if they want to play they need to sign. That doesn't mean the system isn't warped. It is.

[ProfessorGAC]

39. Untrue

They can get 9 to 5's like the rest of us. There is no inherent right to play football, just because one is big, strong, and fast. They are completely, voluntarily, signing a contract based upon a system with which they agreed.

It is not a warped system, when it has been agreed upon by all parties.

The Professor

[DaveinMD]

40. They are football players

they have no choice. The system is warped.

I guess our economic system isn't warped either. The minimum wage must be high enough because if you don't like it, you can just starve to death.

[ProfessorGAC]

41. Apples & Chipmunks

You'll have to do better than that, Dave. Having enough to eat is an intrinsic right. Playing professional football is not.

A system that is agreed upon by all parties is not warped. The last CBA was agreed upon by 100% (yes 100%) of the NFLPA members. Your defense of holdouts has to be based upon something better than a "warped" system that ALL agreed was in everyone's best interest.
The Professor

[DaveinMD]

67. the the nflpa

is a house union. Them agreeing to anything means nothing. They have let the owners get away with anything they want. The system is a mockery of the sham. Its a shamockery.

[ProfessorGAC]

68. That's Not The Point Of Debate

I won't argue that. (I like shamockery, btw. Good one.)

The fact is that the agreement was certified at 100%. So, no player can complain about the inherent "unfairness" of the system. Besides the upfront money is all the players and agents really care about. That way the whole "cut because you're paid too much" thing becomes less relevant.

Nice chatting with ya!
The Professor

[Roachman]

10. Contracts are only as good as the power relations behind them.

Owners have too much power.

If they want contracts honored, they should give up some of that power, such as the ability to cut without compensation.

Until then, I don't think players should feel they have to abide by a contract when they have to sign to play in a league that offers owners guarantees, but not them.

[safi0]

12. Roach your exactly right.

NBA or MLB players never hold out, even if they feel there underpaid why? Because there contracts are guranteed. There is definetely some upside to having non-guranteed contracts, but holdouts are definetely going to happen

[safi0]

11. That is BULLSHIT.

Players should live up to contracts, that is the stupidest fucking thing I have ever heard. This is the NFL we are talking about, the league were Troy Brown who did every single thing imaginable for the Patriots including playing a position he'd never played got cut because his "cap number" was too high, the league were Junior Seau was about to be cut before Miami traded for him. NFL GM's are th worst people in all of sports, there are no people who are bigger hypocrites and bigger liars than NFL GM's. NFL GM's never to live up to here contracts, so why should players be expected to. Here's the big difference between us and NFL athletes, if we get pneumonia and are sick for a few weeks our bosses can't fire us unless they want a big ass lawsuit, but if an player gets injured and shows slow recovery or his "cap number" is too high NFL teams will send you the walking papers, and there isn't a damn thing they can do about it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. And who signed the collective bargaining agreement?

You know, the one that allows Troy Brown to be released?

That's right - it was the players.

[safi0]

18. So, whats your point

Like I said there are good things about non-guranteed contracts, but holdouts will happen because teams cut players whenever and wherever, and players should hold out if they feel its in there best interest.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

20. If you sign a contract, do you think YOU would be able to just not fulfill

your end of it?

[safi0]

22. But wouldn't you

Expect your employer to fulfill his end of the deal unless you gave him real just cause to terminate you.

My basic point is this: The NFL system is what it is, it has its good points and has its bad points. But because GM's and owners can terminate deals just about anytime they want fo whatever reason they want, players should be able to try to get the deal they feel there worth. Basically if the organization doesn't uphold there end of the contract, why should players be expected to?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

23. Once again, players GAVE owners that ability.

That's why they should be expected to fulfill their end of the agreement.

[safi0]

25. Bullshit.

The way these long term contracts are signed players and front office people alike know that these contracts are hardly binding. When a player signs a 7 year deal its known that he will in all likelihood not see years 6 and 7, and he will likely not see years 4 and 5. If it gets to years 4 and 5 he will probably be asked to restructure his deal to help the team with there cap room. That's the way these deals are.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

27. So why don't players just sign 1 year deals every year?

They CAN do that, no?

[safi0]

32. signing bonuses

That's the only guranteed part of the deal

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

35. That doesn't answer my question at all.

You can get a signing bonus with a 1 year deal.

[Roachman]

42. The owners would never agree

Owners have the power. No owners, in any sport, accept one year deals.

If contracts are not guaranteed, there's no way they'll accept one year deals.

Look, this is the point of having rules in the other leagues to deal with the most important moral quandry of sports: the draft.

The draft is obviously a necessary part of every sport.

The draft is also highly immoral and illegal.

For a long time, we had drafts and no free agency.

Yes, as the Professor said, you don't have a right to play football, but neither do the owners have a moral right to ask anyone to take a crappy deal or give up what they've trained from ages 14 or 16 or 12 to 22 for, especially when they've forgone so much else in their lives for that training.

Maybe they shouldn't become football players, I know i wouldn't want my children to, but that does not mean that anyone has the moral right to abuse the immorality of a system that forces people to negotiate with exactly one team.

In the other sports, this unfairness and immorality of the necessary draft is balanced by guaranteed contracts.

In football, you have to negotiate with one team, take the deal they offer, risk losing everything on one freak injury that we all know happens to a great deal of football players (especially the ones that are not famous), and there is no other option except to give it all up and take a 9to5, which they are in no way trained for.

Did they make a stupid decision when they were 12? Sure. Should we allow people to take advantage of them for that? That's stupid.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

43. Again, no one forces players to sign with the team that drafts them

See Eli Manning and John Elway.

And owners accept 1 year deals all the time. Perhaps you don't follow, but 1 or 2 year deals allow them more flexibility as well, as cutting a player shortly after signing a long term contract may not put them financially at risk, but it does result in salary cap penalties, which are usually more important to a team.

Further, once again, the players signed the collective bargaining agreement with the league. They accepted these as the rules of engagement. I'm not shedding any crocodile tears for them for not liking the rules they themselves accepted. Now if we're talking about changing guaranteed contracts in the next round of collective bargaining, I'm on the players' side with that one. But this is an entirely separate issue.

And as far as "crappy deals" go, the vast majority of rookies make far more in their initial contracts than they will for the remainder of their careers. Very few of them sign better deals later on when they're free agents. It's extremely difficult for me to consider any deal "crappy" when you're a completely unproven commodity, and this is exactly the same for ANY person starting out in the job market. I might've been the smartest guy in my field when I started my career, but there was no way I was going to make any more than $27k to start out. So forgive me if I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever that someone might have to actually prove themselves before cashing in.

[Roachman]

44. Give me an example of a third or fourth round pick

who did not sign with their team.

Look, I don't have sympathy for TO either, but what about the guy who is stuck with the deal he has to take based on his slot, and then gets injured, and we never hear about him because he was not a star.

I assume you are in a field where you are unlikely to get an injury where someone will take away your income due to your injury.

And if you are, then I would fight for you, and say what they are doing to you is immoral, EVEN IF some stupid union agreed to the immoral deal you get.

The question here is whether the situation is made moral by the existence of an agreement. That is certainly not true. I might be in a relationship of employment with someone that I think is getting screwed by their agreement, that does not mean it is morally acceptable for me to continue the screwing of them.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

47. I don't have to come up with an example.

The point is that they don't HAVE to. It doesn't matter if you're a 1st rounder or a 7th rounder, you do not have to sign with the team that drafts you. Period.

And if you think that ANY field is immune to injury, let me submit to you my father losing his job after battling cancer. He was an office employee.

The truth is that this can happen to anyone at any time. NFL players are not immune. That's life. Making the money they do and knowing their careers can end at any time, if they do not make arrangements for their own financial security and instead waste their money on cars or jewelry, then I certainly would lack a degree of sympathy for them. Even at a base salary, if an NFL player loses his job, he should easily have enough saved that he can live while starting a new career.

[Roachman]

60. And I don't think that what happened to your father was right!

That's why I'm on a democratic website!

It is precisely because I do not think anyone should lose their ability to make money because of a freak accident!

I'm a freaking-liberal! That's why I'm here!

Sure, i think it would be nice if people save, but because I'm a liberal, I think organizations should be set up to help people when they get injured and did not save!

And if you are a white multimillionaire in an organization that is not set up that way, then you are doing something immoral, even if you can get people to agree to the arrangement most serviceable to you!

[northzax]

62. you could, I suppose

buy the NFL-underwritten insurance policies against career ending injuries, right? I mean take a little responsiblity for yourself in a violent job?

even marines have to buy life insurance.

[Roachman]

64. That's exactly what a libertarian would say.

They also say, and said, you could have chosen not to live in New Orleans, and if you did, buy some insurance. Take a little responsibility people drowning and losing homes...

[northzax]

65. if you have the financial capability

you should have insurance. Javon Walker made $515,000 last year, and another $515,000 last year. In addition to his signing bonus of 3.5 million dollars four years ago. since entering the league, (this would be his fourth year) a league in which the average career is 3.5 years, he has earned just over $6 million. If, over this time, he hasn't managed to save some money, then I have little sympathy.

Part of that abhorrent collective bargaining agreement was the NFL's pension plan, any player who plays four years in the NFL, who spends any four years on any NFL roster, including injured reserve, where Walker is headed, is fully vested in the plan. So Walker will be at the end of this season, since on IR he can't be cut. That pension will pay him, at the age of 40, $75,000 a year, tax free, for the rest of his life. Given an average life expentancy of 70 years, that's another $2.25 million. it's a dangerous profession, certainly, and a short lived one for most people, but yes, he has the reponsibility to plan for his future, since he is financially able to.

I have a 401K and an IRA, to save for my retirement, I have disability insurance and life insurance in case the worst happens, these are things I negotiate with my employer, why can't he?

by the way, since the restrictive CBA entered into force, players make MORE money, more guaranteed money, per season, than under the old, guaranteed contract system, and, even better, they get the money upfront, in signing bonuses, rather than over time. Wouldn't you rather get paid now for the next five years' work?

[northzax]

52. if I get hit by a bus tommorow

and can't work for six months, my employer, as most will, will furlough me, give me unpaid leave over that time. This is why I have disability insurance, paid for by my employer, to compensate me for that. If I was injured on the job, I'd get worker's compensation for the time missed, from an insurance plan my employer pays into. Javon Walker, unable to play a down for football for a year, (probably) will continue to get paid his full salary over that time period. In fact, the team cannot release him due to injury this year, despite the fact that he is unable to fufill his obligations, due to an on the job injury. he's not getting worker's comp, is he? over that time span, he will have fully paid rehabilitation, be earining time towards his pension and still get paid. that's not bad, huh? will your employer do that?

[northzax]

46. and I'd be willing to bet

that you didn't have a thousand dollar an hour lawyer negotiating your first employment contract either, right?

This is also a job where you fully vest in the pension plan after only four years. the average career is three and a half years. that's why people sign longer contracts, in exchange for bonus money.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

50. Contract? What contract!?

The vast majority of us can get their ass kicked out on the street tomorrow if their boss so desires!

[northzax]

55. that was kinda the point

I mean I had Leigh Steinberg negotiating the terms of my first job, I had to hold out for something above minimum wage, but I think he did a good job.

you want fries with that?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

56. LOL, Rosenhaus got me 2 weeks vacation.

Of course, he couldn't negotiate medical insurance for me.

[northzax]

59. well, no one's THAT good

I'm sure he'll have you hold out next season, it's what Rosenhaus does.

[safi0]

53. No you can't

The whole point of Signing Bonuses is that there prorated over the length of the deal.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

57. That doesn't mean you CAN'T get them.

And yes, it does still happen regularly.

[northzax]

58. yes, you can

there's just no financial reason for a club to do it.

and it's worth noting that the money is paid upfront, but the value is pro-rated against the salary cap.

Drew Brees, for instance, is on a one-year deal, that's what's offered to 'franchise players'

[rinsd]

30. One thing to add here....

Why do you think signing bonuses have gotten to be so large in the NFL?

Because they players know that money and the money from their first year is all that they are guaranteed.

[Roachman]

63. This is the messiest thead I've seen

I haven't been on DU long, but I think I'm going to lose my job from trying to keep up with this thead and the associated injury to my mind caused by that.

But I still think it would suck if my employers purposely back-loaded my non-guaranteed contact because they knew thread-related injuries were common in our field!

[northzax]

66. that's for you to negotiate

those that negotiate well get their salary in bonus money, guaranteed and up front. it would suck if your contract was backloaded, sure, but what if you got 40% of it upfront? if your employer no longer needs you say, one year into a five year deal, you are free to ply your trade elsewhere, and keep the up front money! that's not such a bad deal, is it?

[Roachman]

69. This is football

It is not about those who negotiate well. No fifth round pick who negotiates well makes more than a first round pick who doesn't.

And sure, they should buy insurance, and sure, they should not play football. I agree with all that.

I'm just saying, as per my stance as a liberal, I think people should treat others fairly whether those others are stupid or are stuck in a bad agreement or not.

I'm not saying football players who get screwed are in no way to blame. I am saying the owners are to blame as well for taking advantage of players who are stuck in a bad deal.

Just because there is an agreement does not mean that the side who takes the greatest advantage did not do something wrong.

Not every agreeement has equal powers on both sides and comes out fairly. Not every person has the ability to negotiate a fair deal. Not in our society.

That's why people who rebuild New Orleans will have to take less than $9 an hour.
Are you going to say to them, if you don't like it, either negotiate a better deal or find another city to rebuild?

[northzax]

76. of course not

after the initial contract, the NFL is a pure merit based system, with some floors (minimum wages) and some ceilings (salary caps) but within that, you make exactly what you can convince someone you are worth, based on what other people, of comparable skills and talent, earn.

No rookie, who thinks he is going to outperform his standing in the draft, should sign a longer term deal, by doing so, they forfeit liberty for security (and we all know what Ben Franklin said about doing that)

Look at it from this perspective. When do you sign a long term, fixed price contract? as a buyer, when you think prices will rise (owners) as a seller (players) when you think prices will drop.

Javon Walker signed a 5 year deal, a long deal for a lower draft pick, gambling that in four years (now) he wouldn't be worth exceptionally more than he was then. That was a miscalculation, obviously, but it is one he chose to make. He was an adult, advised (if it was Rosenhaus) by a highly competant attorney, who decided to sign a longer term contract, rather than a shorter term one that gave him more flexibility.

The people in New Orleans are a different situation, and you know it. At no time did the Green Bay Trust change the terms, real or implied, of Walker's contract arbitrarily. They didn't, with the other owners, get together and say, 'Because Green Bay is a small market, they will arbitrarily pay their players 50% less this year." that is what Bush did to the people of New Orleans, he eliminated, unilaterally, the legal wage protections that had previously been in force. He rewrote the social contract from one end. completely different story.

[safi0]

80. The error of your

Arguement assumes that owners keep there end of the arguement. That owners never cut players before there contracts are up

BTW Rosenhaus wasn't Javon's agent when he signed his rookie deal.

[northzax]

81. no, that risk is compensated by signing bonuses

in which a player is paid ahead of time for work that he may, or may not, be asked to provide.

a player doesn't have to return the signing bonus if he gets released, in fact, he is free to sign with another team while still costing money to his first team.