[Boxing] Wladimir Klitschko vs. Sam Peter, thoughts on Levander Johnson.

[dr.zoidberg]

The fight is on HBO this Saturday(Sept.24)night. Also on the undercard has Miguel Cotto taking on Ricardo Torres.

My expectation for the Cotto fight is for Cotto to win. I have never seen Torres fight, but he is 28-0 so he may be good for all I know. i have seen Cotto fight several time and I expect him to win a UD.

The main event is a complete toss-up to me. On one hand we have Sam Peter, a young fighter who has show to have huge knockout power and not much else. He has no head movement and little to no defense. He also has never been tested in his career. This is understandable as he is still a young fighter. Some say that he is fighting Wladimir too soon, and that he should have had a few more fights before fighting Wladimir. On the other hand we have Wladimir Klitschko, who is one of the most offensively gifted fighters in the heavyweight division. For all of his offensive prowess he has show to have little defense, no chin, and poor stamina. He does, however, have a reach advantage which can help him against Peter.

Making a pick for this fight is going to be very difficult. The only thing that I am sure of is that someone will get knockedout and that this fight will not go past 5 rounds. In the end, I expect Sam Peter to win the fight in a slugfest of epic proportions.

In closing, I would like to send my prayers to Levander Johnson, a 15 year pro who finally,after 4 tries,won a piece of the world lightweight title 3 months ago in Italy. Last Saturday, Johnson made his first title defense against Jesus Chavez. Johnson lost the fight by TKO in the 11th after taking a tremendous beating the entire length of the fight. Making his way backstage after the loss Johnson began to stumble around drunkenly and immediately was taken to a hospital in Las Vegas for medical treatment. He was put in a medically induced coma to relieve the swelling on his brain. Johnson has a sub-dermal hematoma and has emergency brain surgery. After a bleak outlook that night, Johnson status have improved although he is still in critical condition. I hope he makes it through alive and well. Things like this makes me question why I am a boxing fan at times.

[blueknight]

1. i could knockout klitschko! lol

the man has NO CHIN AT ALL. but having said that, he can deliver and we dont know if peter can take a punch or not.i say klitschko by a early ko. i heard about lavander, how sad. his family is in my prayers

[jobycom]

2. Well wishes to Levander. Things like this have turned me away from boxing

Not really because I think this is inevitable, but because there is no controlling authority to try to prevent things like this. It happens too often, especially when you add in the slow deaths, like Mohammad Ali, or probably Evander Hollyfield. There needs to be more authority in the sport to tell a boxer he can't fight, rather than a push by promoters and agents to allow fights between fighters with too many punches, too much danger. Fights need tighter medical requirements, and standards should be there to stop a fight when someone has been beaten too much.

Just my opinion. I'm not sure how the dynamics should work, or what the requirements should be. I just know that I stopped watching boxing after onr of the last Hollyfield fights, when I decided the man shouldn't be allowed in the ring. It's hard to enjoy a fight when you know it may eventually or even immediately destroy one of the participants.

[dr.zoidberg]

3. That's why people are pushing for a national commission.

The commission would hopefully have procedures in place that can stop some of these things from happening. It won't be able to stop them all, but it would be better than the current situation we have now.

[jobycom]

4. That's what I'd like to see. And it should set standards for

amateur and local boxing clubs as well, even if it doesn't have authority over them.

[H2O Man]

6. It's sad.

I remember being young, and the experience of having a friend, Frank Barry, die after a amateur fight. When you are young, you don't "get it." You think, "Poor Frank!," but never connect the damage done to what is happening to your own body. (For a couple years, Frank's Mom presented a trophy at the Gloves; all these years later, I doubt that many people other than his family remember. Sad.)

More, as a young man, when you see a punch-drunk fighter, it doesn't make sense that BOXING did that! I never really believed my father on that. I thought the old-timers were just born that way. Get older, and find out that they got beat that way.

My oldest brother, who blocked a lot of punches with his head, is now on the Jerry Quarry Highway. The length of the journey is not certain. The destination is. Probably 50% of the guys I knew when I fought have had tough ends; maybe they would have anyhow.

There is something repulsive about boxing. I saw an HBO show with Meldrick Taylor, who is clearly damaged goods now. I am convinced that the national commission being mentioned on this thread is the biggest step. I think most promoters and managers are parasites. I think that someone like Teddy Atlas would make a great commissioner.

[Stephist]

11. Levander Johnson Died Today

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=2169415
:cry:

[dr.zoidberg]

12. Aw, shit...

I was really hoping that the immediate medical treatments that he after the fight would have his life. Even if th doctors gave him a 15% chance of survival.:cry:

This should make the state athletic commissions around the US and hopefully around the world make brain scans a mandatory procedure. They should make the promoters pay for it, as well.

[H2O Man]

5. This may be the heavyweight

"fight of the year." I think you have summed it up very well, and I agree with everything you've said.

Wladimir used Samuel as a sparring partner in the past. From every report I've read, he was able to outbox him. However, their careers have gone in very different directions since then.

The questions about Klitschko's chin, in my opinion, are not so important as the questions about his heart. Huge heavyweights can flatten other huge heavyweights. WK has been KOed three times: Corrie Sanders (2 rds); Lamon Brewster (5); and Ross Puritty (11). He was also getting his behind kicked by DaVarryl Williams, including being decked, in their 10-2-04 fight, where he was awarded a technical decision.

In all but the Sanders fight, his chin wasn't as much a problem as his anxiety and cowardice.

On the plus side, he's gor experience, including a 134-6 amateur record, crowned with the 1996 Olympic title. He's beat Jameel McCline, Ray Mercer, Francois Botha, Monte Barret, and Chris Byrd. Not bad!

He's also just under 6'6" (listed as 6'7" often) and a powerful physical speciman at 240-245 lbs. He has an 81-inch reach. At 29 years old, he has an under-rated jab (my opinion), a clubbing right with real power, and can move side-to-side with real grace for a big man. His defense is the European "straight-up," and as long as Peter is at arm's length, he's relatively safe. And he brought in Manny Stewart.

Peter's manager (Duva) is very confident that his 6'1", 245 lb powerhouse can destrof WK. Peter had 19-1 amateur record, and is 24-0 (20 KOs) as a pro. I read a description of Samuel as having "near freakish punching power." Many were impressed with his destruction of Taurus Sykes. However, his best showing yet (in many "expert's" opinions) was against journeyman Jeremy Williams.

Williams, though never a great fighter, had a lot of talent that went largely unused. He had attempted a comback, and seemed focused. However, Peter predicted a 2-round kayo, and Williams was looking out for the right, when Peter hit him with a left hook that left Williams seriously out cold.

Peter's defense is his offense. I read a guy saying that if WK tries to tie Peter up inside, he blows his heighth advantage, and will sap his strength. That's a key point. Peter has a good uppercut inside. Watch for that.

I see Peter (reach = 77 inches, only 4 less than WK) as having a "danger zone" if he comes straight forward. WK's jab is better than given credit by many boxing people. A jab is needed to slow Peter's attack. However, if WK throws a hesitant jab, and brings it back lower than his shoulder, he'll be hurt.

Another consideration is the referee. Hard to control men this size if you are under 150 lbs! But that could mean Jay Nady, the worst referee in the business.

Samuel Peter reminds me of a young, large Charles "Sonny" Liston. WK may be his Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams. That means an explosive fight, where both guys get hurt. I don't think WK could have lasted 4 rounds with Liston.

[Sean138666]

7. It could be a matchup of boxer vs. puncher

Klitschko showed in his last fight (Eliseo Castillo) that he could use a jab and improved movement to keep the opponent on the outside. And I've never seen Peter show any kind of head movement and weaving like the kind Mike Tyson used to do; of course, I've never seen him in a fight where he had to use it. If he doesn't know how, we could see him get knocked out. If he does know how, we can expect to see Klitschko knocked out again.

Another factor is opponents. Peter's biggest wins came against a Jeremy Williams who may have been past his prime and Yanqui Diaz, the single biggest fraud this side of (INSERT FRANKIE CARBO-CONTROLLED FIGHTER NAME HERE). Klitschko has fought better opposition like Chris Byrd and Monte Barrett. Of course, he also lost to a couple of them, like Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster.

I'm going to go with Klitschko by KO, kinda by instinct.

About being a boxing fan in certain instances...I say that if you don't like to see that kind of beating, then you can't really blame yourself for anything. Most boxing fans like to see a knockout, but not a prolonged beating--I know that I like to see an evenly fought match like Castillo vs Corrales. I say that it's the ghouls that cheer prolonged and one-sided beatings like that who not only make themselves look bad, but make the sport look bad in general.

[H2O Man]

8. Klitschko's jab

is under-rated. If he can keep a stiff jab going, it "creates" for his right, and then comes the hook.

I think the most important thing for WK to win is to be relaxed. If you are relaxed going into the ring, and fight relaxed, you never get too tired. However, when asked about this, Wladimir responded, "I'm not worried about my confidence. That's why I prepared myself in preparation."

Peter strikes me as a very relaxed fighter. It will be interesting to see if he is relaxed Saturday night. The possibility of his being a Mac Foster or a Ron Lyle is certainly there.

What do you think about the Cotto fight?

[Sean138666]

9. Miguel Cotto vs. Ricardo Torres

Torres is from Colombia, and he only fought outside of Colombia once. He has a pretty good knockout record, 26 KOs in 28 wins. That opposition hasn't been that great; he's only fought two unbeaten fighters, one of whom only had 10 fights and the other none

The record makes him look more like a prospect taking a step up. Which, in cases of fighters like Torres who came up with such limited opposition, is usually disastrous. Torres's best opponent so far was Edwin Vazquez.

[H2O Man]

10. Every so often

a Central- or South American comes up and surprises people by being as good as his record "hints" at. But I agree with you. I think that Cotto is very good, and the fight will showcase his talents. It's an all around good card for boxing fans.

[H2O Man]

13. Tonight is the fight!

Any final predictions?

I saw the re-runs of last week's PPV card. Mosley does not look impressive to me. I think that, unless he needs the money, he should retire. He had a brief "prime," in which he was outstanding, and looked like he might reign for an extended period. But his skills have eroded, and his new trainer has no business doing more than rinsing his mouthpiece. Sad.

[dr.zoidberg]

14. Mosely looked average.

It was very disappointing to see his current condition. I believe that Mosely should retire.

Barerra/Peden was a dirty fight. Even with both fighters being fairly dirty, Peden was completely outclasses and didn't even belong in the ring with Barerra. I still can't believe that HBO made this a PPV show.

[H2O Man]

15. I agree.

Barerra fighting an ex-sparring partner should not be PPV. It is getting where far too many fight cards are going that way. I'm not going to shell out the extra money any more (with a few exceptions).

I am not going to but the Jones-Tarver fight. What has Roy done recently? Nothing against him; I think in his prime he was one of the top ten light heavyweights. But he should not be fighting.

Mosley will not do well against a young man with fast hands.

[Awsi Dooger]

18. I'm not betting the Jones fight either

If anything I would bet Tarver, who is a younger 36 than Jones and I think he simply wants it more. I still have no idea why Jones accepted this fight, or even took on Tarver the second time. I thought Jones clearly won the first fight but it was hyped as a Tarver victory simply because it was the closest fight Jones had since his amateur career. You could tell Jones was aging and Tarver matched up against him well, the height and reach and frame with similar speed to an aging Jones.

Jones was a fantastic fighter, not merely top 10 light heavy. I went to the fight against Toney, which one boxing magazine called the best big fight performance in 25 years. Jones had already dispatched Hopkins at that point. The one question was always his chin. I think Jones really hurt his longterm reputation via the manner of his two defeats, counted out after devastating blows. If he had merely lost decisions it could be discounted as a speed guy who fought beyond his prime. But now there will always be that addendum about Jones's chin or lack thereof, especially if it happens again on Saturday.

I've seen Roy Jones in person a few times, stood next to him here in Las Vegas. It confirmed my suspicion he should have been a super middleweight not a light heavy. His frame is small compared to other light heavies I've seen. There were no top middleweights or super middleweights in Jones' era so he moved up and stayed there. A decade or two earlier it would have been fascinating because I'm sure Roy would have stayed down and fought the glamor bouts with Hagler, Hearns and Leonard. No way he could have made welterweight like a young Leonard or Hearns, but hypothetically he could have fought them as they matured and moved up.

[H2O Man]

19. There have been some

great light heavyweights. Jones would have, at very least, been a tough fight for any one of them. In the era of the 1940s through '60s, there were perhaps more, simply because "big" fighters were not as big as today. So, just for one exampe, Ezzard Charles had moved through the light heavyweight division, on his way up to heavyweights. Today, he'd have ended up a cruiserweight.

A Jones vs Charles match would obviously be fantastic. One could speculate that either man would win. I would favor Charles, the greatest amateur boxer ever, who is often overlooked as a pro.

There are many others, from Bob Foster to Billy Conn, that would have made interesting match-ups with Roy.

I agree fully that he could have remained at super middleweight. It would have allowed him fights with Hearns and Leonard. Haglar, of course, showed no interest in fighting at that weight class. However, when Jones was a middleweight, he could have fought any of the greats from any given time, and always have done very well.

When I say he is in the top ten, I do not intend it as an insult. I never shared the frustration that many fans did with his style, or even his selection of fights. I always prefer the manwho hits without getting hit. One of my favorite fighters (who was the ref in one of my bouts many years ago) was the great Willie Pep. In today's world, he might not be appreciated for his abilities.

Jones was, however, kayoed twice. Late in his career, for sure. But like Lennox Lewis, it revealed the clink in his armor that could potentially be exploited by another great fighter.

Glad to see Roy has made peace with his dad. That's more important than the Tarver fight.

[Awsi Dooger]

21. I didn't know he had reconciled with his dad

Very good news. It always struck me as hard to figure. Maybe his dad wasn't right as a trainer or advisor but to severe ties like that seemed overdone.

I always appreciated Jones's style. Landing 2 punches to zero seems more effective and sensible to me than exchanging 10 for 8. He always tried to finish but when it became obvious to him certain guys weren't going out he didn't press the issue and take chances, not when he was winning every round. At one point I heard a stat that Roy Jones had by far the highest percentage of scored rounds won in boxing history. It was surreal, like 85%.

I know he became cautious of scheduling fights as a pro after the Seoul fiasco. I don't think Jones ever fought outside the United States as a pro, not fighting the German lightheavy who was a top contender. That's why I don't understand the reckless scheduling at the end of his career, taking a bout with Tarver not very long after fighting at heavyweight, then a senseless rematch with Tarver, followed by underestimating Glenn Johnson, and now another fight with Tarver after a year layoff. Masochistic, if you ask me. Jones' reputation will depend largely on boxing historians and fans ignoring anything post-Ruiz.

[H2O Man]

22. Key point:

Changing the weight casses was a poor choice. A younger man can do it. An older man needs to either stay where he is (best choice if he can maintain the weight), or move up and stay there. Roy did a lot of harm with the weight changes. The fight with Ruiz was, in my opinion, a bad choice. Ruiz only throws 20 punches per round, so he was an obvious choice for Roy, if he needed to move up. But it didn't add to his stature. And it took from his reflexes to come back down.

[Awsi Dooger]

26. Those are excellent points

And why would he take such a tough stylistic and height/reach bout like Tarver, immediately after going up to heavyweight? Zero sense.

If not for Ruiz, I'm sure Roy would not have moved up to heavyweight. Like you wrote, it was such a perfect opponent and Roy knew it and couldn't resist. But it wasn't like Michael Spinks defeating Larry Holmes or anything close to that. Ruiz had no name recognition or aura. Roy was even EXPECTED to win, a 1/2 favorite. Roy will always technically be another lightheavy who won the heavyweight title, but the process harmed his boxing future and especially his longterm reputation.

[H2O Man]

27. I think that

Roy will be remembered for beating a guy who held a phoney title. John Ruiz has less claim to the heavyweight title than Ernie Terrel. Roy beat a top 10 contender.

Fighting a guy who in his best fights averages less than 20 punches per round presents limited risks. Fighting Tarver presents a whole nother range of difficulties. I thought Roy won the first fight -- or that Tarver lost it by holding back when he seemed able to do more. This might sound odd, but I think Roy was as humiliated by Tarver's taunt, "You got any excuses, Roy?" at the ref's instructions, as by being flattened. Plenty of people talk at the instructions, but that was different. It highlighted the personal issues involved.

Ruiz went into the ring a seeming Roy Jones fan, slightly in awe of the man. Tarver had personalized it in a very different way. But now, Roy has the hatred that Floyd Patterson felt after he first lost the real heavyweight championship. His skills are diminished, but he is driven. I never underestimate the power of that type of distilled hatred in the ring. I favor Tarver, because Roy's chin is now suspect, and he has to risk getting hit to hit.

It's fun to speculate about Roy in his prime against Michael Spinks, or Floyd Patterson.

[Awsi Dooger]

28. The only time Roy fought with unleashed fury

Was the rematch with Montell Griffin. I'm sure he feels the same way about this Tarver fight, but the age realities won't allow that type of relentless attack. Plus he had no fear of Montell Griffin, someone he correctly viewed as an awkward fighter who got lucky against him.

I think you nailed the first Jones/Tarver fight. Tarver was inexplicably inactive for long stretches allowing Jones to win rounds without doing much. It didn't jive with Tarver's long expressed desire to fight Jones after the history of their amateur feud. But Tarver was also overly tentative in many rounds of the first fight with Johnson. Plus he allowed Jones to virtually dictate the first round and a half of their rematch until the flash KO.

I agree Jones took this bout because he is a proud man and fighter who resents the lack of respect Tarver gave him. Remember, Jones' song was titled, "Ya'll Musta Forgot," signifying he was miffed at a lack of recognition and awe after so many years on top. In another post you correctly mentioned Shane Moseley's very brief prime, defined as a year or so prior to DeLaHoya I until he was exposed by Vernon Forrest. In Jones' case he was atop, or among the best, in pound for pound ratings for virtually a dozen years. Never out of shape or dramatic swings in level of performance. Then he beats Ruiz and Tarver, yet Tarver taunts him before the bell.

I expect Tarver to be atypically aggressive in this fight and to win handily, if not by knockout again. Even Johnson was winning round after round before knocking Jones out. Jones may have the motivation and I'm sure he's trying to psych himself into one last "Super Roy Jones" effort, but that's not going to happen at this age and versus an opponent who holds so many physical attributes. I always remember what Ray Leonard said before fighting Hagler, when asked about his inactivity, "No, I'm not worried. I'm 30 years old. If I were 35, then I'd worry." He was absolutely right. And Jones is a speed fighter at 36 going on 37 in January. Five years ago I'd pick Jones but not now. Remember when always cautious Hector Camacho suddenly had no fear of an aging Ray Leonard and went straight at him? I expect a lesser version of that from Tarver vs. Jones, no respect and even less fear.

[H2O Man]

29. Exactly.

I explain to my younger son that fighters get "old" by taking punishment. A man can be worn out by lots of long, tough fights, and also by getting knocked out relatively quickly. Roy hasn't had the long, drawn out wars which, win or lose, sap a man's ability. But the combination of age, sporadic activity, and two crushing loses, have certainly made Roy less capable than he was even a couple years ago.

Ray Leonard is a good example of how a boxer (even a boxer-puncher) loses far more in the mid-thirties than does a puncher. While Ray had substance abuse issues that Roy (hopefully) does not, that's the perfect comparison.

I'd be happy with either man winning. I have great respect for both. But Tarver has an advantage that Bob Foster had: that heighth and reach means that in order to come in to kick ass, he has to be aware that his own is right behind him. Anyone who came at Bob Foster paid a price. Likewise, anyone who tried to out-think Bob got counted out. I think that at his age, Roy will have a hard time not making the split-second error that a Foster or Tarver is able to exploit in the most explosive manner. (Not to say Tarver is equal to Foster.)

I agree with your thought about Roy five years ago. The punch Tarver flattened him with would not have hit him at age 31-32. Pulling back as he did is an instinctive move for a man with perfect reflexes. It's sad how what once made a man great now becomes his greatest weakness.

[Kingofalldems]

16. Ok question here

Is Vladimer the one who was knocked out by the South African a couple years ago? Or was it Vitali(sp)?

[H2O Man]

17. Wladimir was.

Vitali is the one who fought Lennox Lewis.

Great fight card. Cotto won a dramatic knockout, in a bout that did Carmen Basilio proud.

Wladimir won a well-earned decision, after being decked three times. It is the type of defeat that will make Peter a better fighter. There were two times when Peter could have given up, but refused. It was the type of fight that can make the heavyweight division interesting again.

[Kingofalldems]

20. Saw the fight

Gotta say the first two knockdowns were suspect. Great fight though. I would regard Peter as Ernie Shavers with a chin. Anyone with good boxing skills could jab him for 12 rounds.

[dr.zoidberg]

23. Great card by HBO.

The Cotto/Torres fight was sensational. It was just an all out fight as Torres was swinging for the fences from the opening bell. I also liked that Cotto showed some resiliency after getting knocked down. I want to see more of Torres.

I consider Klitschko/Peter an upset. I certainly didn't expect Wladimir to box the entire fight. I was expecting Peter to catch Wlad and that would be it. Wlad was knocked down 3 times in the fight and got up each time. Wlad impressed me and showed to me that maybe he wants to be a boxer.

[H2O Man]

24. Cotto

went to the body. Torres didn't. Each time he hurt Cotto, he focused entirely on the head. Poor corner work, in my opinion. Cotto's body attack was impressive: it helped convince Torres to wait until he knew the ref was going to count him out before pretending to try to get up. I'd rate the fight as an A+, exactly what boxing needs to draw interest.

I thought Klitschko vs Peter was an even match going in. The only thing I didn't think likely was exactly what happened. It was perhaps Wladimir's best fight to date. He could have paniced and been taken out. Samuel also showed surprising defensive skills. He also could have quit twice (after the 8th, and in the last round.) But he came through, and had a good attitude -- that he wants to get him in the ring again.

Corner work is a great asset. Wladimir had the best type: calm, focused, with just a few instructions. Peter needs the next step up in his corner. At some point in training, it should have occured that Wladimir would clinch a lot. It isn't enough to think Peter is stronger and can simply hit him. A good fighter has to learn how to navigate inside, and not let someone tie him up constantly.

If Peter is going to become champion, this loss can be a good thing. But he needs to have someone help him process it, in a manner that insures it doesn't happen again.

[Loge23]

25. Peter can punch

...if he evers hit anything with that punch it's lights out. But I think he's got to learn if he expects to survive as a title contender. You have to credit Wlad for taking his game to the next level - that was some disciplined boxing there.
...enjoyed the whole card also - that Torres-Cotto match was fun to watch.

[H2O Man]

30. Exactly.

Wladimir fought his best fight to date. He showed the ability that his supporters believed was there. I think that one of the HBO announcers said that Manny Stewart commented that he has always been able to train tall men to beat short men. It looks like Stewart is a good match for Wladimir.

A loss can help Samuel Peter. I'm not that impressed with an undefeated record. A win streak at the right time is far more important. Great fighters come back better after a loss -- Joe Louis is the obvious example. Louis is also an important example, because even with his uncanny power, Joe would not have been as great without his boxing ability. The same with Charles "Sonny" Liston; his ability to land his blows separated him from other powerful punchers. (Both Louis and Liston had very good defensive skills, too. Peter showed more than expected, but still has a lot to learn there.)

Torres vs Cotto was the type of fight that everyone enjoys. It is a perfect example of why body punches are important.

[Stephist]

31. Wlad Klitschko Still Sucks

I just got done watching the rebroadcast of saturday nights fights and I got to say something I never thought I would say... thank God for Harold Lederman. Without him that broadcast might have been unwatchable. Merchant is a damn fool, "Coto has stopped 11 out of last 12 opponents or is it 12 out of his last 11?" "Coto wants to fight Ray Robinson" what the f*ck? what is he going to do, did him up and fight him? As for Lampley, God bless his politics but he just flat sucks as a fight commentator. his open cheerleader for Wlad was disgusting. "he's hitting him in the back of the head" I love Big George but he says some stupid shit, Only Herold Lederman, amazingly enough, was a voice of reason calling out Klitschko for his "Jab and grab" style, which of course set lampley off on more pro Klitschko whining. Klit won the fight but he still is God Awful. Sam Peter threw three punches the entire fight and knocked down Wlad three times. I guess HBO will pump up this great white dope until he is flat on his ass being counted out again.