Houston Astros have no American Black players

[Mend]

not a one....just a coincidence I'm sure. And they lost....in four straight.

[Bridget Burke]

1. It probably IS a coincidence.

Can you prove otherwise? Do the non-US Blacks on the team not count, somehow?

[Mend]

9. big articles in several papers with major Black players

such as Joe Morgan and Frank Robinson, who feel that Major League baseball has let down African-American kids.

[HuckleB]

44. How?

:shrug:

[CanOfWhoopAss]

2. OK What about their farm system? nt

[BOSSHOG]

3. I'm not sure of the relevance of that subject

Yes, they lost in four, but they were the National League Champions which points to some sort of successful front office operation. Should we now assign quotas to sports teams?

[Mend]

11. I remember Jackie Robinson...

I was really young but I remember going to Ebbets Field and I remember watching the Brooklyn Dodgers on TV and how he was treated at away games. I remember that the Yankees couldn't find a Black player for another eight years. If you believe this is nothing, that's fine...but I remember it otherwise.

[BOSSHOG]

14. If I believe what is nothing?

I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting that Houston intentionally did not seek black ball players. They put together a very fine baseball team, the best in their league and if they could make it better by hiring non-white americans I'm sure they would do that. If you have some ominous secret document which points out an intentional move to segregate the team please share.

If Houston had 50% black american players on the team and didn't make the playoffs would that make things better for Astro fans?

[ContraBass Black]

18. I think this is a tongue in cheek response

to the college coach who said the other team won because they had more blacks.

[erpowers]

49. Not Successful Front Office Operation

I do not believe the Astros lost in four games because they did not have any black players. Also, I do not think the original poster believes that either; I think they were just being a little sarcastic (maybe they were not). However, I do not think the Astros were the National League Champions due to good fron office operation. I think the MLB has a problem with how teams get into the playoffs. Maybe I am wrong, but I believe the Astros were below 500 and still got into the playoffs.

The reason the Astros lost in four games is simply they were out matched by a superior team and superior mangement. When the Astros manager put Lidge in game 4 I pretty much so knew the White Sox were going to win the World Series that night. I actually thought that night that if the White Sox could not hit off Lidge and win the series that night there was a problem. Maybe the manager realized that they would lose the series regardless and decided to throw Lidge in their and end it that night. This is not to insult the White Sox or their manager; I think they and their manager did a great job in the playoffs and the World Series.

Maybe MLB should think about not allowing teams under 500 to be in the playoffs. If I am wrong about the Astros being under 500 I am sorry, but they were still out matched my the White Sox this year.

[Kagemusha]

4. I've long disagreed that black players are a panacea.

I mean, sure, I have the highest respect for black athletes. I pay attention to the NFL and NBA, black dominated sports. I don't even watch baseball much (a white and hispanic dominated sport). But I would not sell a white player's play short just because he's white, which I fear is where this argument - nothing personal, because I have heard this argument for many years from many different people - leads to.

What we saw was a record of poor batting with runners in scoring position vs. excellent pitching, which is a poor matchup for the offensive side. Throwing race in seems superfluous.

Edit: For that matter... I don't even know the players on the Astros well at all. Why restrict this to American blacks?... is Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs in the NBA, an American black? Is Tiger Woods an American black? (One could easily argue "no" in both cases.)

Now, is the team averse to hiring American blacks? That may well be true. Is that why they lost? Probably not.

[Leopolds Ghost]

27. Eccchhh

I somehow doubt that the OP was referring to African Americans being
"useful" -- y'know, "big and strong" and all those other stereotypes.

Doesn't anyone believe in poetic justice anymore??

Anyone who thinks MLB hasn't screwed over American Blacks for the past 50 years might want to visit RFK stadium sometime... then go to a Redskins game... see the difference. And that's WITHOUT high ticket prices and security-fenced parking lots associated with a new, taxpayer-funded stadium.

Washington DC stadium proponents are actively ARGUING that DC is a special case BECAUSE the team will only attract white suburbanites, ergo it will bring in dollars that would otherwise flow to other jurisdictions, so taxpayers should fund it.

(Never mind that all the retail that would be associated with the stadium would have to be built -- by politically connected developers -- in an industrial area -- and likely will not be built, since that would take money from the on-site concessions. and high-security military office buildings are in much higher demand in that area -- than retail which would be dead outside of game time. They're actually tearing down all the housing in the neighborhood -- which is all set aside for Section 8 -- to build military offices for the ceremonial branch of the Marine Corps.)

The fact that the stadium would be in a FORMERLY black neighborhood is just window-dressing.

Since the Sox themselves aren't much better than the Astros, I had no dog in this year's fight.

[northzax]

47. there has never been a neighborhood

to speak of where the stadium is going, it's not a residential neighborhood, as you mention it is light industry and gay discos, not really a 'black neighborhood'

the fact is that young black men don't play baseball very much any more. Baseball is a suburban and rural sport, not an urban one. Football and basketball are more urban oriented. There is not a pro-sport team left that won't play the best avaliable talent, the fact is that in baseball, that talent does not exist among young black men right now. Baseball is a sport that you have to grow up playing, you can learn a lot of football positions, and a lot of basketball (see Tim Duncan) if you have the talent, but learning to hit a curveball is a lifetime activity (look at Michael Jordan, one of the best athletes of his generation, but, out of practice, couldn't even play AAA ball well.) Baseball players are much more specialized, for longer than other team sports. If there aren't successful little leagues and traveling teams in black communities, then there won't be successful black players.

[erpowers]

50. Bad Analogy

I think Micheal Jordan is a bad analogy. Micheal Jordan is just one player. I do not think baseball is a more specialized sport than any other sport. One you can look at Micheal Jordan's age when he tried to take up baseball. I do not say this to point out that he did not play baseball for many years when he was young I do it to point out that as people age their reflexes may get slower. Also we have to ask if Jordan really wanted to play baseball or if he was just doing it for the attention it brought or if he just like to try new things. He is into motorcycle racing now. I do not beieve baseball is a lifetime activity. That does not mean I think MLB is racist; I just think maybe black players feel they can make more money in other sports.

[AspenRose]

32. Tim Duncan is from the US Virgin Islands

I think you're thinking about Tony Parker, who is of French nationality, but is half black (his dad is american) and half belgian, I believe. Maybe it's half dutch. At any rate, he's French.

[tanyev]

5. I thought they lost because Babs came to all four games.

[YDogg]

13. That's my guess. I was rooting for the Astros until I saw babs at a game.

[otohara]

29. Petty Me....Likes to See All TX Teams

lose....Esecially the one's where parents of evil spawn from WH go to.

[Gato Moteado]

6. well, it's poppy bush's town and his team......

.....and his daddy prescott was a buddy of hitler's. so, it's probably no coincidence.

thank god we sent those ugly bush monsters home in four!

[Bridget Burke]

22. Poppy Bush does NOT own the team. He never did.

His son did own 1.8% of the Rangers--but that's up North in the Metroplex.

And Poppy has never been much of a Houstonian. After he got into national politics, his official Houston residence was a hotel suite. (No State Income Tax here.) After the voters gave him early retirement, he built a house on a small lot in a gated community here.

The Astros did well this year. The White Sox did better.

[Gato Moteado]

23. yes, i know he didn't own the team

but he went to all the games. and the stadium was named enron field for a while. kind of icky if you ask me.

as for his hotel residency...yeah, i know about that too. at least i had an apartment for the 2.5 years i lived there.

[Dawgs]

7. There aren't a lot of black players left in baseball...

Many of the players are coming from latin countries. It just the way things are now in baseball.

[Captain Hilts]

21. Japan also. The talent pool has gone international.

Not unlike the NBA and hockey.

[More Than A Feeling]

8. They lost because the clock struck midnight

and their closer, Brad Lidge, turned into a pumpkin.

[Clark2008]

12. They lost because their pitching staff sucks in comparison

with the Sox's Kotts and Jenks.

Those boys ROCK!

[AngryAmish]

10. They can have Corey Patterson

god he sucks

[KharmaTrain]

16. Now Now...LOL

I'm still trying to clean the Babs and Poppy Boooosh poop off my screen...LOL.

Hopefully the Tribune got a very loud message last night...if not, they should soon.

Cheers...

[SaveElmer]

15. It's MLB's fault...

They have not tried to gear their appeal to younger African Americans, like the NBA and NFL have.

Having said that, there are plenty of great young African American players coming up in the minors. I attend 15-20 minor league games every year and I see them there.

Plus I think baseball is finally getting on the stick. MLB and the Washington Nationals are beginning to build fields for youth in DC, and are conducting clinics and forming teams to try and drum up interest.!!

It's ashame they didn't do it earlier. Baseball is finally getting back to where it used to be attendance and interest wise after all the labor turmoil...they can't afford to write off a significant chunk of their potential fan and player base!!!

[Captain Hilts]

20. Do they have to specifically target black fans?

No major league targets women to watch their sports either. But women watch anyway. In spite of the anti-woman culture. In fact, the advertisements shown during the games repulse women from watching. No one cares. Perhaps they should.

[PDittie]

17. This is NOT TRUE

Charles Gipson and Charlton Jimerson.

They also have a black coach, Cecil Cooper.

They also promoted the first African-American to the front office, and he is now in MLB's front office (Bob Watson).

STOP THE GODDAMN TEXAS HATING.

[Mend]

24. Joe Morgan says it's true: here's the link:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9826553/

the first team in more than fifty years to field a World Series team without a black player....I am just repeating what I have read in several papers by several writers.

[PDittie]

34. READ THE ARTICLE

All the way to the middle, at least. If you do, you'll read that there were two African-American players on the Astros roster; they just weren't good enough to be on the playoff roster.

If I say what I really think about this bullshit thread I'll get banned. But I'm fucking sick of it.

It's great to root for the White Sox, and I congratulate them on their World Seres championship. And of course it's perfectly fine to despise the Bushes; Flying Spaghetti Monster knows we here have endured their shit a lot longer than anyone else. I even understand not rooting for the Astros JUST BECAUSE FUCKING FOX SHOWED THEM EVERY 15 SECONDS during the games. I didn't suddenly see a swarm of Red Sox (and Boston and Massachusetts) hating last year when Curt Schilling exposed himself as a freeper, and that's what I'm talking about.

Be a fan, don't be a fan; but all of this Houston and Texas hating has worn me out. Houston is DEMOCRATIC city, with a Democratic mayor and a predominantly Democratic city council. The city controller is a lesbian. Go ahead; look it up. I'm not going to do your research for you any more.

And I'm not going to let this BS racist slur slide.

The Astros were the first team to open a baseball academy in Venezuela, which is where they discovered Freddy Garcia and Bobby Abreu and Richard Hidalgo, among many others. It's not about racism, it's about skills (and the preference of young A-A athletes, as the article clarifies).

If Joe Morgan (and anybody else, for that matter) thinks there's a racial problem in baseball then he needs to get off his fat ass and start doing something about it.

And if you want to keep on hating on my hometown, then go over to Free Republic.

God Damn It.:mad:

[theHandpuppet]

38. Um... I think you've mistaken me for a SOX fan

I'm the one who posted the thread (on the Sports Forum) which you apparently mistook for a personal swipe at the Astros. As a bb fan who really didn't care one way or another who won this particular series (I'm a Reds and Indians fan, m'self) I only posted the article because I was perusing the Cincy Enquirer for Bengals news and espying the article, thought it posed some interesting perspectives on the declining number of young black (American) players in MLB. I'm sure the article was timed to coincide with the WS, but that was neither here nor there for me personally. I'm more interested in the topic in general.

Yes, it is unfortunate that some posters are so shallow that they decided to use this article to bash Houston and/or the Astros in their WS fervor rather than engage the subject with some serious discourse, even though I did try to follow up my original post with what I believed was a cogent and thoughtful reflection on the subject.

So if you have a problem with particular posters within my thread, please address them but not dismiss my "bullshit thread". I may not give a rat's ass about the Astros OR the White Sox, but I DO believe that Joe Morgan has some very legitimate points about the declining number of young black athletes in MLB. As I posted in the other thread -- you know, my bullshit one -- the underlying problems are many and complicated. Neither I nor Joe Morgan attributed the problem to racism, and if Mr. Morgan -- as a former Astro -- noted an absence of players of color on the Houston team, I interpreted that as an OBSERVATION, ie, the makeup of today's Astros as a reflection of MLB as a whole. A microcosm if you will.

So are we square now?

The link to my thread on the Sports Forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=215x27487

[Dave Sund]

40. Excuse me, but did you just try to use JOE MORGAN

in an argument?

You need to reexamine some things, dude. You just agreed with Joe Morgan. The dude is nutty.

[lastliberalintexas]

35. Thank you!

Hell, I was happy for the White Sox until I came to DU and saw the reaction to a *Houston* team getting beat and all the bs posts about the Astros being the equivalent of the Bush family. :eyes:


And Mr. Morgan was complaining about the fact that American Blacks by and large are no longer interested in baseball- he wasn't blaming the league. In fact, he discussed the various outreach programs they have going on and how they hoped to pull some young kids away from football and basketball in the coming years. But I guess any excuse to slam the Astros/Texas/Houston will work.

[Captain Hilts]

37. Washington DCers like Houston because they hate Dallas as much as we.

[HuckleB]

45. Cecil Cooper rocks!

[Captain Hilts]

19. Only 9% black players from the US in baseball

It's part of a long-term trend. Black kids have abandoned baseball for basketball. This is why Major League Baseball has been doing community outreach, with folks like my moniker, Mookie Wilson doing it. It's also why MLB wanted a major league team in Washington, DC, to enhance the minority fan base.

Just as white girls are playing soccer instead of basketball. The WNBA is white women from Europe playing with black women from the US. That's also been happening for a while.

[SidDithers]

28. Yup, they were talking about his on sport radio yesterday...

the guest was from an organization which promotes diversity in sport, mainly at the management and upper management level. His opinion was exactly as you had described. Black youth have shifted to basketball, and away from baseball. The reason for this, he said, was that, in general, black populations tended to live in cities. And in cities, where space is more of an issue, there are not nearly as many baseball diamonds as there are neighbourhood basketball courts.

Sid

Edt: BTW, we loved Mookie when he played for the Jays :)

[Captain Hilts]

36. Mookie and I did our minor league in Norfolk and both ended up in T.O.

I was in graduate school at UofT when he came to Toronto.

I have the MacLean's cover framed on my wall!

Moooooooooo...

[chenGOD]

25. Ridiculous. Professional coaches hire players who help the team win.

Period. The only way a coach keeps his job is if if his team wins.

This is a simple fact.

[newportdadde]

26. The Lakers don't have any 5'7'' white guys.

So where is the love for me? They hire players who win games. Money and the desire for more seems to be one thing that can reach across the color barriers.

[musiclawyer]

30. To imply they lost because of their ethnic makeup is dumb

....if that is the implication. I think the real issue is baseball becoming an international game, coupled with baseball, for now, being the least desirable team sport within the black community. Is baseball trying hard enough to remedy that? That's debatable. Does baseball really care? I really don't think so. They know that there is unrefined talent from all over the globe that, when properly schooled, will get the attention and interest of millions upon millions from their homelands. Much more so than if MLB found a few more George Hendricks' or Mickey Rivers'

[AspenRose]

31. Misunderstood the post

I took it to mean there were no American black players....but there were some from the Caribbean/Cuba or something.

Not a baseball fan, sorry.

[dr.zoidberg]

33. What joe Morgan is saying..

is that their are no american black players because American black are not playing baseball.

[Ksec]

39. who cares?

I dont care .

[MessiahRp]

41. Michael Wilbon addressed this on PTI

He made a very good point. It's not that the owners are saying no to black players these days, it's that most black youth aren't playing the sport like they used to. They tend to lean towards basketball and football these days. Wilbon mentioned that the baseball fields in the neighborhoods he grew up in are abandoned and have grass growing out of control on them since they are never used.

That makes sense to me. I respect Henry Aaron and the time period he came up in, but honestly it's not racism this time. Owners want talent, they could care less about what race that talent comes from these days. The bottom line trumps personal prejudices.

Rp

[Captain Hilts]

42. PTI rules. Check out Tony's radio show on ...

http://www.sportstalk980.com/lineup/tonykornheiser.html

[underpants]

43. Seriously who DOES play baseball anymore?

is there land in the middle of the city or in new 'burbs that they are willing to give up for a baseball diamond? (Hell talk about a waste of real estate they don't use 80% of the damned field when they DO play on it)

Mostly only the Latin Americans and the white suburbanites play baseball. THe 'burbanites drive to play baseball.

[HuckleB]

46. What planet do you live on?

Little league is as big as ever. Adult softball and hardball leagues get bigger every year, and it ain't just in the burbs. I play in inner Seattle and Portland all the time.

[Captain Hilts]

48. Hey everyone, check out Michael Wilbon's article in Sat's WP. nt

[Lefty48197]

51. The number of African-Americans in MLB has been dropping lately

I think I've heard it's down to 9%. I believe a lot of it is related to the growth in the number of Latin-American ball players, Japanese ball players etc. The Cubans are now back into MLB too.
A number of high-profile African-American former MLB players have been speaking out on the issue lately. They say that young Blacks athletes are choosing other sports, and that MLB needs to reach out to the Black youth of today.

[jobycom]

52. MLB targets a white audience, so they shouldn't be surprised

that black athletes are growing up to play other sports.

It's not just black athletes and fans they are losing, it's teenage and young adult fans. They go overboard controlling their image as a "clean cut, wholesome" sport, to the point where they interpret those values as basically a traditional white image. The image of cool these days is more inner city, interracial, and personal expression oriented. Individuality rules. MLB makes itself boring by promoting a more uniform image.

I'm not saying MLB is trying to drive away African American fans and players, just that their image makes them less interesting to younger African Americans and younger Americans in general. So black athletes don't grow up thinking how cool it would be to play in MLB.

Contrast that to the NFL, where a halftime show is equally likely to have rap, country or rock shows, and the players are allowed some personal expression during the game. It's controlled to some degree, but not like MLB.

Baseball will be much better off when the Bud Selig era is finally over, IMHO. The man's a bean counter, he has no vision.

And yes, there are a few stereotypes in my post, but I'm talking about general trends, not about each and every person.

[nickgutierrez]

53. I think you're right.

Baseball is clinging to its "National Pastime" image like it was bound by superglue. Letting superhacks like Joe Morgan and Tim McCarver go on and on about the game's history is fine, in its place, but this really shouldn't be something brought up constantly in the middle of a broadcast. This doesn't actively push away young viewers, it just gives them the idea that the game isn't as good because it's stuck on the past. MLB needs to cast an eye toward the future, change a few things, and make it so that people care about the present, because what they're doing now isn't working.