What? No Carolina-Giants post?

[joeybee12]

I don't know how many Carolina fans are out there--can't be many because I figured at least ONE would be here gloating. I assume the Giants fans are too despondent.

Only caught part of the game at the game. Carolina was in control--was it the rout they're making it out to be? Sounds like it.

[hijinx87]

1. not really a panthers fan . . .

but I live in the carolinas and saw the game.

it certainly wasn't pretty for NY. manning had 3 INTs and a fumble,
five turnovers overall, and gained 130 odd yards.

[joeybee12]

2. Crooksandliars said Eli choked--that's all they said....

...3 INTS and a fumble probably constitutes a choke.

[hijinx87]

3. I think that's a fairly reasonable conclusion.

and their crowd was wildly unamused, even for new yorkers.

[joeybee12]

4. Just read how the crowd booed the team at half-time....

...never been for booing, no matter how badly your team is doing.

[hijinx87]

6. true. booing the home team is a pretty selfish action.

it certainly doesn't do the home team any good to hear it;
they're professionals. they know they are stinking up the
joint long before the crowd.

but after all, they were in new york ;)

[joeybee12]

9. Hey! I was born in New York!

And I know what you mean!

[northzax]

5. hey, just remember, no Manning has ever won a superbowl

the sainted Archie never even started a playoff game. And Peyton is well known for choking in big games as well.

[hijinx87]

7. indy is at home -- in their dome -- for the entire playoffs.

and the SB is in a dome. so li'l peyton doesn't have
to face any cold weather.

this could be his/their year.

[joeybee12]

8. Could be, but still...

...Peyton is obviously the best of the 3, but he never won the big one in college, either. They were on a roll until they lost to San Diego. I'd still sya they're the favorite, but when the momentum has been stopped, even great teams don't get back to that same invincible level. Someone else could just sneak in now.

[hijinx87]

10. well, put it this way . . .

if he chokes in the playoffs this year, they'll be calling him the
next jim kelly. heck, at least kelly made it to the biggest of the
big games before he choked.

[joeybee12]

15. Can't recall how Jim did in those Super Bowls, but I have to say

that each time they made it, the better team won, so I don't know if it's accurate that he choked.

[hijinx87]

16. he was 0-forever. n/t

[trotsky]

23. I think the Bills were favored in the first one against the Giants,

but were the underdogs in every one after that.

[joeybee12]

25. They were, by 10 points, which, in my humble opinion, was way off

base. The Giants were better that year, and ended up winning.

[sniffa]

11. indy wiLL Lose to the steeLers

[hijinx87]

12. right on cue . . .

they're showing highlights of the colt's blowout of the steelers earlier this season. :P

[northzax]

14. and if rats had wings

they'd be pigeons. I'll be first in line to congratulate Manning, if he pulls it off, but the back monkey is not getting any lighter...

[Sandpiper]

13. Eli upheld that fine Manning family tradition

Of your hands going straight to your throat in big games.

[erpowers]

18. Eli Not Good

I just do not think Eli Manning is that good of a quarterback. I think it was Tiki Barber who got them to the playoffs not Manning. I think they got to the playoffs in spite of Manning.

[Sandpiper]

20. Yeah

I think Eli is an average QB surrounded by a lot of good skill position players.

[joeybee12]

21. Agreed, but they paid through the nose for him, believing he was

thier future and their salvation. Don't know the math, but how much does he take up of their payroll, which hampers them from getting quality players?

[trotsky]

24. Oh yeah, Tiki was obviously the reason for their success.

The Panthers made it their primary goal to stop Tiki. They did, and they demolished the Giants.

[rinsd]

27. He's had all of 1 1/2 years.....

...Eli will be good. He was decent this year winning some games, not blowing others.

[erpowers]

32. Interceptions

How many interceptions did Manning throw this year. Didn't he have the same problem last year. I know that many young quarterbacks have problems; however, he does throw a large amount of interceptions and has an extremely low QB rating. I do not think it is debatable that if the Giants had not had Tiki Barber they would not have made it to the playoffs. In addition, there are quaterbacks in the league who have been in for the same time as Manning and have done much better than Manning.

[rinsd]

34. The over/under on wins this year was 6 or 7 preseason....

...this was not a team that was expected to do much with a young QB. I think Eli did some things well though he had problems with his mechanics especially as the season wore down. Everything showed promise and I will be looking for improvement.

"In addition, there are quaterbacks in the league who have been in for the same time as Manning and have done much better than Manning."

Really who? Are you speaking right now or historically?

On edit: I wanted to add that Giants receivers led the league in dropped passes this year which would make a slight difference in Eli's stats.

[erpowers]

35. Ben Rothslesberger

I believe Ben Rothslesberger has been in the league for about two years and has done much better than Manning. Rothslesberger has already been to a divisions championship game. This year he is back in the playoffs and has a win.

Historically speaking I think if you look at Donovan McNabb at about the same time in his career he did better. I think McNabb has been in the league for six years and has been to the playoffs four times. He even made it to the division championship three times with a team that might have had less weapons then the Giants.

[kick-ass-bob]

39. I'm sorry, those 2 had an entire team around them before they started.

The Giants, IIRC, had no offensive line last year, and I think led the league in sacks allowed.

As a rebuttal to your assumption: John Elway.

Manning:
Yr 1 55.4 rating, 6 TD, 9 INT
Yr 2 75.9 24, 17

Elway:
Yr 1 54.9 rating, 7 TD, 14 INT
Yr 2 76.8, 18, 15


Just because SOME QB's are better than others in their first 2 years (or year and a half) doesn't mean shit over the long haul. I'm sure there are also some that were good for a couple years and fizzled, but no one remembers their names...

[erpowers]

40. Texans

I am pretty sure the Texans lead in the category of most sacks allowed.

Manning has a pretty good team around him. He has pretty good running backs, at least he has one good running back. In addition, he as other good receivers. The offensive line was not the problem in the game on Sunday. Manning was the single biggest problem. He threw 3 interceptions and fumbled once.

[kick-ass-bob]

41. 52 sacks allowed last year (2004).

Much better this year (28).

But some QBs need to grow longer than others. I don't think you can toss Eli out based on throwing some picks in his first ever playoff game, where the run game has been completely taken away.

Carolina's defense IS that good, when they come to play.

[rinsd]

42. Big Ben throws the ball way less than Manning.

As huge as Tiki is to the offense, there has been more passing in the COuglin system, this year especially.

He is certainly good though. I wanted him pre-draft before the Manning deal.

And as far as Donovan goes, he is a case (much like I feel about Manning and Ben for that matter) where stats don't tell the whole story. His QB rating has been over 90 once, hovering around 80 to 85.

So far we have a league MVP and a ROY pro bowl candidate, if that's Manning stick of measurement then you give the guy more credit that you realize.

[rinsd]

30. Manning had a few big wins....

...Denver comes to mind immediately.

He's had all of a year and half and you're ready to pass judgement?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

33. you are so right. I wish they would fire his ass and get a new QB

we haven't had anyone good, I mean really good, since Sims. I think they are placing too much value on the manning name. what a mistake. it is not fair to the fans...

[joeybee12]

36. Since you're from NY, I gotta ask--is the media love-affair with Eli

now over? I gather they pretty much defended him all year. Did this play-off game change anything?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

45. not from NY. Read NY Daily News yesterday. Looked like

everyone was blaming everyone else. Tiki Barber said they were "UNDERCOACHED" Others said that they had the wrong game plan.

Didn't see too much blame for Eli, unfortunately...

P>S> What about Damon? Is everyone still hating him. I love the Yankees, but if I were a Boston fan, I would be SO pissed, especially since he said he would never play for NY. sounds like he sold out, big time. Like 40 mil wasn't enough. makes me respect him so much less. Knowing Yankee luck, he will start sucking big time now that he is in NY. I was in CT at Christmas and they had a RS fan on tv who said "Damon is dead to me"

[joeybee12]

47. My two cents on Johnny--he should have stayed, and I think he might

have had the Red Sox gone back to table just to show good faith.

Then again, it did come down to money. There is very little loyalty in any sport these days, and for someone who grew up when Yaz stayed his entire career in Boston, it's disconcerting.

As for how he'll do with the Yankees? I don't think the Yankees need him. What they need is pitching, which has let them down in the play-offs the past few years. Johnny's arm is going, and Yankee stadium is MUCH bigger than Fenway--he'll have to throw farther. That will take its toll quickly. I don't think he'll last 4 years in NY--the Yankees will try to trade him after two years.

I do agree that the Giants were under-coached. I felt that way when they took Eli thinking he would solve their problems. Their problems are deeper than that--mainly Coughlin. Anyway, I WAS a life-long Giants fan until they took Manning. I just think it was a real bone-head move on their part, and treated Kerry Collins badly in the process. Left such a bad taste in my mouth I can't root for them--I will once Eli is gone, even though my feelings toward him personally are ambivalent. Sort of a man without a team right now!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

51. Yes, pitching. You are right. Also, I think that the Yankees and

mainly Joe, have no idea how to play an important (playoff) game. All they know is how to get up to bat and swing for the home run. Seldom, if ever, will you see them bunt or have "advancing the runner" as their priority.

What did Boston offer Damon? 43 million? something like that. And the Yankees gave him 52? It all boils down to -- Isn't 43 million plus loyalty plus adoring fans enough for one human being. Obviously not. He is diminished, in my mind, not as a player, but as a person. Hey, you're talking to a bleeding heart liberal, what can I say?

[joeybee12]

54. If I recall, it was $40 million...

...so he got $12 million more. He said afterwards that other teams offered him even more than $52 million, but he went with the Yankees because they gave him a four-year dael--I gather that the other deals required a longer commitment.

Liked him, but the honeymoon was over after I read a comment about him saying how much he really liked George Bush, and how his father got a raw deal, implying Clinton wasn't really elected. Jerk. You expect most sports figures to be Repukes, but I thought he might be different because he seems like a free spirit. I was wrong.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

56. ugh. I wish you hadn't told me that ! (second paragraph). But you

are a Red Sox fan, right? I worked in Boston for 15 months a couple years ago and surprisingly, it seemed like it was a very conservative place. And, the Red Sox players were a "republican" leaning bunch of guys (salivating over B**). That is the first time I have ever heard anyone imply that Clinton wasn't really elected.

Have you considered switching to the Yankees? haha

As for Damon deals, I thought it was the opposite. I thought he was looking for as long a deal as he could find, given his age, and that that was the reason he took the Yankee deal...

[joeybee12]

59. I gather he figures he'll still have value in four years, and can still

get a good deal when the 4 years are up--that's why he wanted shorter, rather than longer, because say in 6 years, he couldn't go anywhere--they'd figure his career was over.

As for Boston, I grew up in CT, but went to graduate school in Boston. It's not really liberal. For the most part people are politically progressive, but it's conservative in the sense that people are uptight. It really is that Puritan influence, even to today. Overall, Massachusetts really isn't the bastion of liberalism the right portrays it to be--look at their righ-wing nut case Governor now. And when I lived there, it was Governor King--just as right-wing, so the current guy (cannot think of that Mormon's name right now for the life of me!) is not simply an aberration.

I've heard it said a few times (from idiots) that Clinton wasn't really elected because Bush would have been re-elected had Perot not run. Every study and poll shows Clinton would have won in any combination. But hey, what are facts to ignorance?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

63. Ha, I grew up in Connecticut too - where close to 70% hate B**

But, on the other hand, I just read that they support JoeMentum, go figure.

P.S. Mit Romney

[joeybee12]

64. I think if those people who support Joe Blow got daily doses

of how little he's done for the state, and how much he loves to kiss Bush's butt, they would turn on him quickly. The State Dem. Party covers for him, and the state Repuke Party really has no one to oppose him, so he gets away with it.

[erpowers]

17. Chargers Happy

Does anyone other than myself think the San Diego Chargers are now happy that Eli Manning did not want to play for them. If I were the Chargers I would be laughing my butt off tonight. Talk about someone having an ego too big for his game. Man who did this kid think he was saying he would sit out the year if the Chargers picked him with the first pick.

[joeybee12]

19. Yeah, and the Chargers beat him this year...

...the Giants are doing right by Eli to sort of train him, and they did wrong by giving him so much money. Just don't think he was worth the hype.

Don't think the Giants will do well next year--they were so bad last year they had an easy schedule this year. Next year their schedule will be tougher. As I understand it, the NY press is in love with Eli--wonder when that romance will end bitterly?

[rinsd]

28. There really is no "easy" schedule.....

...unless your division is simply awful and your interconference/interleague divisions also stink. And even then division games are alway tough.

The schedules are set 10 years in advance in terms of teams played with the exception of two games.

2nd the Giants did not have an easy schedule.

They played their division opponents twice each (and the Skins and Boys were good this year). They traveled to the West Coast 4 times(though two teams stunk). They played the Chiefs, Chargers and Seattle on the road. They played Denver at home. They did get an extra "home game". And remember when they year statred alot of people had the Cards pegged for the playoffs.

Sunday, 9/11 4:15 PM ET FOX CARDINALS W 42-19
Monday, 9/19 7:30 PM ET ABC at Saints W 27-10
Sunday, 9/25 8:30 PM ET ESPN at Chargers L 45-23
Sunday, 10/2 1:00 PM ET FOX RAMS W 44-24
Sunday, 10/9 BYE
Sunday, 10/16 1:00 PM ET FOX at Cowboys L 16-13
Sunday, 10/23 4:15 PM ET CBS BRONCOS W 24-23
Sunday, 10/30 1:00 PM ET FOX REDSKINS W 36-0
Sunday, 11/6 4:05 PM ET FOX at 49ers W 24-6
Sunday, 11/13 1:00 PM ET FOX VIKINGS L 24-21
Sunday, 11/20 1:00 PM ET FOX EAGLES W 27-17
Sunday, 11/27 4:15 PM ET FOX at Seahawks L 24-21
Sunday, 12/4 1:00 PM ET FOX COWBOYS W 17-10
Sunday, 12/11 4:05 PM ET FOX at Eagles W 26-23
Saturday, 12/17 5:00 PM ET CBS CHIEFS W 27-17
Saturday, 12/24 1:00 PM ET FOX at Redskins L 35-20
Saturday, 12/31 8:00 PM ET ESPN at Raiders W 30-21

[rinsd]

29. I doubt the Chargers are laughing very much.....

..because right now they have a starting QB with a potential career ending injury. They are paying big bucks to a bench QB they now cannot trade until they see how bad Brees is. They will have to franchise tag Brees and pay him big bucks again. That and they know they shit the bed in not making the playoffs.

Oh and the asshole GM who started the Eli shit in the first place and has since alienated several players during contract negotiations is in the midst of a feud with the head coach.

It doesn't matter though as the Spanos family will fuck over this city whther bullying it into a nbew stadium or leaving for LA.

Horray for management, piss on the kid looking for his best interests!

[kick-ass-bob]

31. I think this happens to a lot of young inexperienced playoff QBs.

Some can understand and adapt to the pressure of a first playoff game, and some have to actually experience it first. Eli just had to experience it.

Wait a couple more playoff games before passing judgement on him.

[soleft]

22. Eli has sucked ever since he went to Foxboro and saw Peyton

beat the Patriots.

[kick-ass-bob]

26. I'm a Panthers fan, but I don't gloat.

That was an awesome performance, they controlled every facet of the game. I'm looking forward to some payback to the Bears this week - and an excellent throwback type game.

[rinsd]

49. You guys kicked our asses up and down the field.....

...ya know its bad when you're cracking your first beer of the game after the first offensive series.

Especially when I live on the West Coast and its 10:15 am ;-)

[DaveinMD]

37. there is so much stupidity in this thread

that it makes my head hurt. The entire Giants team got their butts whipped. It wasn't just Eli. Tiki had the same year last year and the Giants won 6 games. Eli Manning threw 24 TD passes and threw for over 3600 yards. He had a good year for his first full season as a starting QB. But some people are so blinded by the hate, they spew uninformed crap.

[kick-ass-bob]

38. Agreed.

Why the hate over someone's last name?

Sheesh.

Now, if the name were 'Vick' it would be a different story :P

[rinsd]

43. Not if it was the little brother!

;-)

[erpowers]

44. No Last Name Hate

Some people have never believed the hype about Vick and have expressed that opinion. If the name was Vick you would have some of the same statements being written about Vick. There was a post a time ago, about a month ago in which many of the people who posted had something negative to say about Vick. Yes I mean Micheal

Some people are just currently stating the facts and the conclusion they have drawn from those facts. To some, including myself, it does not matter that Manning threw 24 touchdowns and had 3600 yards. He threw many interceptions, many that some might say could have been avoided. In addition, some of the people, including myself, posting here today believe Manning would not have made it to the playoffs if not for other members of his team.

I contend the real problem for Manning is that he made the big deal he made of not wanting to play for San Diego and claiming he would not play for them if they drafted him. You cannot make a statement like that and then not play well every game. If you are big and bad enough to make a statement like that you should not be throwing interceptions and having other people tell people to wait a few years for you to mature and be a better football player. If you are that bad you need to come out and win playoff games your first season. I know some people in this post are angry, but Ben did not make that statement and went to the division championship his first year and this year is in the playoffs once again. What made me dislike Manning was his statement to the San Diego Chargers. Since he made that statement I have no problem criticizing him if he cannot get to the playoffs and cannot win in the playoffs. I am not a Chargers fan I just do not like it when athletes make the statements like Manning made. If you make a statement like that just bring your A game.

[joeybee12]

46. Agreed...I don't dislike Eli...read the ESPN magazine article about

him a few weeks ago. He came across well, not arrogant, and you felt for him, being the younger brother of Peyton. However, you have to admit that he hasn't lived up to the hype. The Giants believed he would rescue them, lead then to the promised land. He hasn't, and his mediocre year doesn't bode well. Yes, it's only his second year, and you can't really tell for a few more, but there were a lot of people here who were willing to judge him the greatest ever even before he ever played even one game in the pros.

[rinsd]

48. One thing you need to understand is the Giants history at QB

In the last 25 years the Giants have had exactly two consistent QBs for at least 4 years.

One is of course Phil Simms who had his share of issues. The other is Kerry Collins who only performed well(though when I say well I mean HOF level) when he had great O-line protection. If you even hurry Kerry a little, he is wildly inconsistent.

The 90's saw drafted QBs for the Giants consisting of Dave Brown (ugh and he was our annointed starter for awhile), Danny Kanell (made Giants fans swoon for one year), Mike Cherry (3rd stringer) & Jesse Palmer (3rd stringer who is more famous for being the bachelor).

So when people hear the talk of savior etc., you have to understand this is the Giants first real shot at a franchise QB since Phil Simms (Collins was of course a bit older and a free agent) so people are more than willing to be patient. Besides, what good things we have seen are encouraging and the bad things look correctable (bad mechanics contributed to more than half his INTs). I have every confidence that every year Eli is at the helm we will have a real shot at the playoffs. Never underestimate the power of consistency at the QB position.

"a lot of people here who were willing to judge him the greatest ever even before he ever played even one game in the pros"

O c'mon I think you can differentiate between hyperbolic enthusiam and rational analysis.

[joeybee12]

50. All I gotta say is "we'll see..."

I think it's a matter of perspective at this point--I tend to think the problems he has are not correctable--like confidence and poise. They're giving him every chance in the world--which is more than a lot of young quaretrbacks get.

[DaveinMD]

53. the problems he has

are the problems that young QBs have. Not many first year starters win 11 games a division title. His career is right on course.

[northzax]

52. you mean compared to the sainte Peyton

who managed to get a degree from Tennessee but was unable to use a can-opener or do laundry (no one had ever taught him) seriously. His mom and girlfriend would come over on weekends and do his laundry his first season in Indy. Good deal if you can get it, but who doesn't know how to make Campbell's Soup?

[joeybee12]

58. Hee-hee!

Amazing how sheltered some people can be growing up--or, should I say focused, so that everything else is foreign.

[DaveinMD]

55. the Chargers went public

not the Mannings. And regardless of that, Manning is right on schedule. He's a young QB. He threw interceptions. That's perfectly natural. Ben throws 16 times a game. Eli was second in the league in pass attempts. They depend on him to win. The Steelers did not depend on Ben last year. He was awful in the playoffs too, but their defense carried them past the Jets.

[erpowers]

57. Not Manning

The Giants did not depend on Manning to win. They depended on Tiki Barber to win. You take Manning out of the game and they can win without him. You take Tiki Barber out of the game and you lose, which is what happened on sunday.

[DaveinMD]

60. the Giants

won a bunch of games because of Manning. Tiki is great. No doubt. But Tiki had just about the same year last year and that team won 6 games. Eli had a good second year and was a key component in them winning games.

[rinsd]

61. Yup....

This actually came up with the Reggie Bush sweepstakes upon us.

Whose the best running back in the league right now? I would say Tomlinson.

What was the Chargers record with Tomlinson before Gates came on the scene and Brees got his act together?

I bet Dave knows the answer.

[DaveinMD]

62. I believe

they were 4-12.