I realized something about NCLB.

[Reader Rabbit]

It's not just a step toward the privatization of our public schools, it is a form of privatization. School districts around the country have given over the assessment of their students to private companies. An ever-increasing portion of school districts' budgets are going to pay for this testing.

Rather than accept and honor assessments made by teachers, who see their students every day, public schools have hired the task out to private companies who then make a profit on it. It's obscene.

And to think I couldn't have hated this piece of legislation any more than I already do!

[ima_sinnic]

1. I am assuming that in an Obama admninistration,

NCLB will thrown in the trash heap where it belongs.

[quispismanna]

5. I am planning on getting a Master's in Education

and I hope by the time I graduate, NCLB is history.

[davefromqueens]

11. Visit a school for a day

Ask a nearby school if you could observe classes for a day or two b/c you are interested.

See what it's like.

See the routines in what seems like simple tasks as putting away coats, lunch orders, homework collection, etc...

And if you like it, which I think you will, remember to be yourself and do what works for you.

My teaching style works for me but I've never tried to impose it on anyone else.

[LWolf]

7. Actually, the current talk

is all about possible appointments to replace Spelling, by people who will support Obama's merit pay scheme.

I don't expect to see NCLB go away under an Obama administration. It's a bipartisan nightmare, with Democratic support.

I expect it to get worse, when you add his merit pay agenda to the picture.

[Nevernose]

12. NCLB is the one thing that made me hesitant about Obama

NCLB and education are my most important issues -- to me far more important than abortion or Iraq, for instance -- yet it was, ironically, the one thing I disagreed with him on.

[LWolf]

21. I have to admit

that I disagreed with him on most key issues.

On health care? I support HR 676.

I don't support the bogus war on terror. He does.

I don't support NAFTA. He does.

And public education, an issue that directly affects my life...

I didn't want him to be the nominee. I would have taken us to a brokered convention to prevent it.

[amdezurik]

2. the fact that the concept itself is based on a fraud

told me all I needed to know back before it was unloaded onto unsuspecting kids to make sure they stayed ignorant

[Greyhound]

3. The very bottom line of everything his maladministration has done.

Profits for his allies over people. From NCLB to the USPS, FEMA, FCC, the military, everything. Steal the commons, give them at no or little charge to connected companies, and wait for them to become useless through neglect or outright sabotage to prove that "government doesn't work".

Rinse, repeat.
:kick:

[davefromqueens]

4. The Testing Companies

There is a lot of money being made by these testing companies with these packets and worksheets. They also have computer technology which of course is forced upon the kids.


I've taught elementary school for 11 yrs, mostly fulltime although now part time. Kids at this age are sponges and need to be fed information as if information is nutrition. They also develop at their own rate and results don't always show up the year the teacher has the child.

For these tests they will even have "math coordinators" or "reading coordinators" or "technology coordinators" or some other bureaucratic position that simply is double dipping that siphons money off the top.

The big flaw of No Child Left Behind is that teaching to the test also means that kids are not learning content which is best learned in every other way but the NCLB approach.

What should be done is simply to abolish NCLB in 2009. Then get the funding into the classroom and fix the actual buildings our kids attend.

[Hangingon]

6. Most tests are developed by the state education agency.

The testing company prepares the test to state specifications - hopefully based on the state curriculum. So, teach the state curriculum and you teach for the test. I guess a few states uses COTS tests. I think the DODEA uses a McGraw Hill product called Terra Nova. NCLB does not need to be scrapped. It needs to be fixed. Most of the teachers who post here do not like the test because it is an instrument of accountability. The objections are dressed up like you see above, but no one likes having their worked checked. However, these children are our future and they deserve the best. That can only be ensured by holding the schools responsible.

[davefromqueens]

8. as someone who has taught

I still teach once a week, I don't know how familiar you are with New York city area schools. I worked in the worst neighborhood imaginable, the absolute worst schools, then later on I worked 5 yrs in one of the best. Simultaneously I've taught kids in Queens at a private prep school for the tests. The school sends many kids onto the elite NYC schools of Stuyvesant and Bronx Science.

I can tell you that these tests have nothing to do with accountability or responsibility. I can also tell you that schools hire the private companies for packets, for computer discs, and even "coordinators." I can also tell you that your best teachers all hate it and the only teachers I find that liked the tests are the ones who can't teach.

Why not hire a robot instead of a person to teach to the test? Volunteer for 3 days in a public school. Go sit in on a class for an entire day. See what it is really like for teachers.

What you may not also know is that you can manipulate the test questions to give the appearance of improvement when the kids actually know less year after year. For example, I remember the 4th grade statewide math tests where the obligatory straight forward multiplication question started off as a two digit number by a two digit number. (I'll use examples)

year 1 - 78 x 63
year 2 - 57 x 60
year 3 - 49 x 8
year 4 - 60 x 40
year 5 - 80 x 2

See a problem here? It's done all the time. They did it with percentages. Too many kids got 18/50 = ___ % wrong so the next year they made it 34/100 (concept wise, my numbers may not be exact) And they do it with reading too. What started off as comparing and contrasting 3 characters with high order thinking skills gradually devolved to the point where the same question (#29 on the ELA) became "Name 3 characters from the story you just read."

Most kids entering college today have math skills and writing skills on a 9th grade level. NCLB and the teach to the test mentality is a big reason why. It substitutes actual learning with nonsense.

[Hangingon]

9. Sorry New York is a mess.

I don't know the details of the NY situation. It does not surprise me that teachers do not like the test. They are being held held accountable. So are the school systems. We got into the standardized test situation because graduates were reaching university unprepared. When we required teacher certification tests, we learned that there were major problems with faculty.

When you say "schools hire the private companies for packets, for computer discs, and even "coordinators", I assume these are for test prep. I think that is stupid too. Done properly, the state test is based on the state curriculum. The curriculum is aligned with teaching materials. Teach the curriculum and not how to take a test. "Teaching to the test" is something I do not buy. Same with "some kids do not test well". These are excuses.

"Why not hire a robot instead of a person to teach to the test? Volunteer for 3 days in a public school. Go sit in on a class for an entire day. See what it is really like for teachers". I do volunteer in local schools. I tutor and I serve on a private school advisory board. I have a pretty good idea of what teachers do.

As I said, the tests I am familiar with are developed by the state education agencies. Testing companies are used to check the quest - sometimes prepared by state teachers - and to check the questions. Questions are checked for factual accuracy, bias, conformance with state curriculum and to ensure the answers do not form a pattern. The testing company and the education agency do the psychometrics on the questions.

Sure, there have been some problems. That is why the law needs to be fixed - not done away with.

[davefromqueens]

10. Thanks for a thoughtful reply

One of the key distinctions I would make is distinguishing elementary school kids from high school kids. These excessive standardized tests are most inappropriate at the earlier ages.

Younger kids are sponges. It's cognitively easier to teach a 6 yr old a foreign language than a 60 year old. LIkewise they also develop at their own pace, sometimes gathering info over long periods of time before this correlates into tangible progress.

For example I had one kid in 4th grade several years ago who I felt was going to get there but not right away. She didn't test well, in fact she ended up scoring a 2 out of 4 on her 4th grade ELA test, the lowest of the 15 kids I was working with. At this prep school a 2 is not deemed acceptable so my principal wanted to know what happened. Of course we had previously discussed this student and I said that I think she'll be fine in the end, just let her develop but don't be surprised if she gets a 2.

Well eventually it all clicked. When she took the tests in 5th grade, she got 4 out of 4, a huge jump on paper.

Now that raises some issues. I was teaching her in 4th grade yet I think the seeds planted there had the same if not more effect than the good work done by the 5th grade teachers. But if you graded us, I'd be deemed lower ranked.

The point is that kids at this age have minds that don't work the way the incremental assessments of standardized tests work. Some kids develop gradually, others spike up all at once, level off, then spike again. Others just store up info inside and eventually figure out how to sort it out and organize. Others need work in developing skill sets before you can really focus on the heavy duty work. Others do best with visuals. Others do best with hands on research projects. Others need work on social skills which hinder academic progress.

The big problem with NCLB is the one size fits all test that truly measures nothing, especially at the early ages. I can understand an exam like the LSAT or the New York Bar Exam (Passed it first time and I'll tell you it has nothing to do with a lawyer's skills) since this is for adults but standardized tests as primary determination of promotion at early ages is a huge mistake.

The assessment of children has to take into account a large range of factors.

[Nevernose]

13. Wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to begin (n/t)

n/t

[davefromqueens]

14. try with specifics

PIck 2 if 2 exist.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Good luck

:)

[Hangingon]

19. Where is the response so wrong?

"State education departments do prepare the tests. Most hire a testing company". What is wrong with that statement.

"The testing company prepares the test to state specifications - hopefully based on the state curriculum. So, teach the state curriculum and you teach for the test". The test preparation process is rigorous. Facts are checked as is bias. Questions are based on the curriculum and tests are assembled based on it. So, yes teach the curriculum and you teach for the test. True, some - too many schools - teach how to take tests. I do not see where this is wrong.

"I guess a few states uses COTS tests. I think the DODEA uses a McGraw Hill product called Terra Nova". DODEA was the only user of COTS tests I could think of offhand. How is this wrong?

"NCLB does not need to be scrapped. It needs to be fixed". Universities said students are arriving unprepared. Business said graduates were not prepared. Comparisons with other countries show that many of our students lagged behind. These statements were made before standardized testing. The standardized test came in being to see if students had mastered the material to progress, to see if teachers were performing, to determine if administrators were ensuring that teachers teach and children learn. If the school does not perform, some actions are mandated to correct the problem. If we do away with the NCLB what happens? We go back to the comfortable status quo ante. Where is this wrong? Please do not fall back on the old saws that NCLB is designed to destroy public education or create a voucher propaganda for private schools. I have heard that paranoia before and do not believe it.

"Most of the teachers who post here do not like the test because it is an instrument of accountability. The objections are dressed up like you see above, but no one likes having their worked checked. However, these children are our future and they deserve the best. That can only be ensured by holding the schools responsible". This must be true. Just look at the responses to this thread. I have argued this before in this forum and been blasted - by some of the same responders. But I have not been show that I was wrong.

[davefromqueens]

26. Wrong on so many levels

1. The tests do NOT hold schools responsible. Do you know what goes on? Two yearly tests do not say anything about what's going on in a school. It's an INACCURATE measure of assessing responsibility. Oh and there's a lot of shady stuff that goes on regarding the tests. Do you know who grades them? Oh yes, the school itself or a group of similarly clustered schools. Therefore the teachers decide whether an essay gets that 2 or 3. And there's plenty of "coaching" going on. A teacher can read the 4 choices out loud and with the voice and body language, basically tell the kids the answer without telling them officially. These scores can be manipulated.

2. The tests don't hold teachers accountable. I've seen it all, trust me. I've worked in the inner city and I worked 5 years in one of the 50 best ranked school districts in the country. By all means check the teacher's work. Go into the classroom. If you ever have kids going to certain schools that I've worked in, I can tell you which teachers you really want, which teachers are fine, and which ones you don't want. I know and don't need test scores to tell you. Oh, and others know too.

3. I'm all for learning and the best interests of the kids. I'm sure you mean well too. I'm saying that NCLB hurts the kids, hurts learning, and does nothing that you say it does. Moreover, my solutions would be to use the money to a) fix the infrastructure b) get the technology and materials into the classrooms c) Bolster up art/music/gym/computers/ and the enrichment programs so that reading and math have applications, d) Encourage more field trips, research, and hands on experiments and e) Understand, especially at the younger ages, that kids learn at different rates and different methodologies and that the curriculum needs to be flexible to adjust to them, instead of imposing a one size fits all glove that doesn't fit any hands.

Again I invite anyone to actually go spend 3 days in a school and sit in a classroom for the full 3 days. Then talk to me.

[Hangingon]

27. Well we don't agree.

New York must be a mess.

"1. The tests do NOT hold schools responsible. Do you know what goes on? Two yearly tests do not say anything about what's going on in a school. It's an INACCURATE measure of assessing responsibility. Oh and there's a lot of shady stuff that goes on regarding the tests. Do you know who grades them? Oh yes, the school itself or a group of similarly clustered schools. Therefore the teachers decide whether an essay gets that 2 or 3. And there's plenty of "coaching" going on. A teacher can read the 4 choices out loud and with the voice and body language, basically tell the kids the answer without telling them officially. These scores can be manipulated"

Tests do hold schools responsible at least here. In other states too. If a scool repeatedly misses AYP, the state takes over. Who grades the test? The testing contractor grades reports and stores the tests. English tests are grades according to rubrics set by TEA in consultation with teacher groups. The yearly tests do appear to be a good indicator of schools. I know that shady stuff is tried on testing. In Texas, it is a violation to tamper or copy the testing materials. It is a violation to coach students or indicate the correct answer. The penalty includes loss of teaching certifcate. Violations are investigate by the security division of TEA. I believe Dallas had a problem with this last year. Not easy to manipulate in a properly run testing program.

"2. The tests don't hold teachers accountable. I've seen it all, trust me. I've worked in the inner city and I worked 5 years in one of the 50 best ranked school districts in the country. By all means check the teacher's work. Go into the classroom. If you ever have kids going to certain schools that I've worked in, I can tell you which teachers you really want, which teachers are fine, and which ones you don't want. I know and don't need test scores to tell you. Oh, and others know too."

I am glad you have "seen it all". Too bad we can't all call you and ask who is best in the schools you have not been in. Ideally, administrators should know who is teaching and who is not. There is always a great deal of gossip about who is the teacher you want to have for your kids. Test experience adds some objectivity to this. In many districts, there is a policy to hold teachers accountable.

"3. I'm all for learning and the best interests of the kids. I'm sure you mean well too. I'm saying that NCLB hurts the kids, hurts learning, and does nothing that you say it does. Moreover, my solutions would be to use the money to a) fix the infrastructure b) get the technology and materials into the classrooms c) Bolster up art/music/gym/computers/ and the enrichment programs so that reading and math have applications, d) Encourage more field trips, research, and hands on experiments and e) Understand, especially at the younger ages, that kids learn at different rates and different methodologies and that the curriculum needs to be flexible to adjust to them, instead of imposing a one size fits all glove that doesn't fit any hands."

We are both for the best interests of the kids. NCLB does not stop "enrichment" courses. It puts the emphasis on basics - that is where we always hear we are behind europe and asia. Use the money for other stuff. Great. But throwing money at schools does not work. A lot of it is simply wasted. Yes children learn in different ways and at different rates. However, curriculum says what a child should master at each level. If the student who does not master the material should not progress. We should find out why the student is not mastering the material.

[davefromqueens]

29. Texas Schools doing horribly

Then why are 40% of your kids dropping out by 9th grade. New York City is bad, Texas is far worse.

As for the rubrics, I've actually graded the tests. It's very subjective, trust me. Next I've seen arbitrary taking over of schools while lower rated schools were not taken over. A lot of politics involved. Plus the state taking it over usually means disaster. On Long Island we had that, it's called Roosevelt and it got much worse.

Next when you say that YEARLY tests are good indicators of how a school is doing, it shows you truly have never worked in a school. What if a child comes to your 5th grade class after having been in a different school? Now I worked in the worst areas of my city. I taught 5th grade. Although they didn't call it the "bottom class" they gave me almost every kid who tested, on avg, on a 2nd grade to early 3rd grade level in both math and english while other classes got none of these kids. Now if I bring all those kids up to a solid 4th grade level, I'd have done one hell of a teaching job you would agree? However, if I did that, none of the kids would get 3s or 4s on those tests so how would you grade me?

Also, I worked 5 years in one of the 50 best school districts in the country. If you check a list of the best school districts in the country and find 7 from New York in the top 50, you've found that school district. Oh as a bonus I work on Saturdays at a school in NYC which preps kids. Check the rankings of Stuyvesant High School and Bronx Science High School. I have former students there.

As to the point about administrators, often they are the problem. I had principals who couldn't write on a 4th grade level and had the worst people skills imaginable but only got those jobs in ways I'm not going to broadcast. Likewise I've had a couple of principals who are fantastic. What do you do about the lousy administrators?

As for where the money is spent, I would much prefer it to be spent on the enrichment than a bunch of teach to the test programs.

[YvonneCa]

31. Suppose 'we' know...

...why a student is not mastering the material. Your words: "Yes children learn in different ways and at different rates. However, curriculum says what a child should master at each level. If the student who does not master the material should not progress. We should find out why the student is not mastering the material."

And how do you define 'should not progress'? Don't go on to the next standard, concept, chapter, etc? Don't promote him/her to the next grade level...or do away with grades altogether? Set up tutoring programs to reteach?

And what if the child started the year four grade levels behind (say a sixth grader doing 2nd grade work) ...what then? Should the sixth grade standards be taught when that child is not prepared?


I get the feeling you've never worked in a public school classroom.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Because we all know teachers don't like to be held accountable

:sarcasm:

[Hangingon]

18. We know some don't like accountability.

With good reason.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Interesting that I don't know any who aren't willing to be held accountable

Most are eager.

So once again, you fail.

[Hangingon]

23. So once again, I fail?

I don't think so. Look at the responses on this thread. Most are eager to he held accountable? Sorry, I can't buy that either. If you are eager to be accountable support reforming the NCLB so it provides accurate measures.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. NCLB is not the answer

Yet you refuse to pay attention to what the DU teachers are saying about this law. It's actually very simple. It doesn't work. The majority of us do support accountability; we just want it done fairly.

I find it sad that you seem to derive so much pleasure from coming here into this forum and bashing teachers. So yes, for that reason, you fail. You certainly aren't going to win over many converts who support NCLB here.

[Hangingon]

25. I have never expected to win over any of the teachers here.

The responses you post are expected. I will rate it a success if NCLB is extended. It needs modifications, but it needs to retain measures which hold educators accountable to students, parents and the taxpayers. It is sad to me that you have not bothered to understood my earlier posts regarding teachers. I do not bash all teachers. I have told you before that there are many teachers that I respect. Yes, there those few I do not respect - the negative ones who complain and have no solutions to offer.

[LWolf]

28. The point you don't want to confront is this:

There is no VALID "measure" which will hold educators accountable to families.

Just WHAT are you asking educators to be accountable FOR?

Here is what I'm willing to be accountable for:

1. Providing a safe, welcoming environment within the limits of the physical plant and administrative and district support that I'm given.

2. Provide multiple opportunities to learn, every day, and as much individual support in doing so as the physical plant, class load, and schedule will allow.

3. Make sure my students know that I like them, respect them, and that the purpose for our work together is for them to reach their personal potential, academically, intellectually, and socially. That I am there for them to assist them in reaching that goal.

4. Provide regular, constructive feedback, correction, and encouragement as they engage in learning.

When you find a reliable, valid way to "measure" those things, let me know.

Meanwhile, some of them are part of my regular annual review. Those reviews are important to my continued employment and my future in the profession. Of course, that accountability is to my administrator and my district, not my students and their families.

Here's what I'm not willing to be held accountable for:

1. Test scores. Standardized test scores are determined by some factors that I don't control. I do my part, but I'm not the only factor.

2. What the student does, and what anyone else involved does. I'm willing to be accountable for what I do. For the opportunities I offer. For the support I offer for every students' efforts. I'm not accountable for what the student chooses to do with those opportunities. I am not accountable for what any of the other people involved do. Success is not achieved by the teacher alone. The teachers, the administrators, the district, the politicians, the parents, and the student all play a part.

[davefromqueens]

30. Outstandingly Stated

Clearly a teacher and a good one.

[YvonneCa]

32. Excellent. Very well stated. And NCLB...

...is all about the data. RESULTS. And it leaves out everything else about why schools and educating children is not the same as using data in a business to produce a product.

When will these NCLB salespeople EVER understand that we teachers aren't assembly line workers and that our students are not look-alike products.

[YvonneCa]

17. As one 'of the teachers who post here'...

...I agree with one thing you say: "However, these children are our future and they deserve the best." You bet they are and they do. Period.

I have no idea what your experience or background is, but you don't seem to understand the public school classroom very well. Most teachers I know have no problem with accountability as long as it is done fairly, and measures growth. NCLB does not do that very well. It does not allow for individual developmental differences in children, or variation in their rate of learning. And it prescribes that a teacher...who knows student academic needs, has been trained and is expected to teach to them every day...cannot do so if that child's needs don't 'fit' a particular curricular standard. In addition, it punishes a teacher and school for even trying.

That is why NCLB must be scrapped. And then a fair accountability system can be created.

[LWolf]

22. Have you both taught state curriculum,

and administered state tests?

I doubt it, if that's what you think.

First of all, "state education agencies" aren't necessarily educators. They are political appointees. Some may have backgrounds in education, but it's certainly not required.

For example, back in the 90s, when California was forming it's own state-level prequel to nclb, educators were brought together from all levels to write new math standards. Those standards, given to Governor Wilson's appointed committee, were deemed "not rigorous enough." They scrapped them and rewrote them. I attended a contentious meeting organized by the CA branch of NCTM; several of those who wrote the original version were in attendance. The new standards were written without regard to research on brain development or on practical considerations, common sense, about what could be accomplished within the number of days in one school year.

Within a year, I was testing kids with the state test. I have administered standardized tests to grades 1 - 8, in two different states. Plenty of opportunity to compare the tests with the state standards. One example, from the 2nd grade math test in CA, is enough to illustrate my point:

Most of the math test consists, not of arithmetic problems to solve; not testing knowledge of basic operations, but of word problems. That, in itself, certainly matches state standards. It's the format of the test that is the problem.

In efforts to make sure that the math test wasn't really testing reading comprehension, the entire test is read aloud to students. In the test booklet, there may be some pictures, but there is no text. The students don't read along with the teacher. They can't reread the problem after the teacher recites it. It isn't there.

The proctor is allowed to read the problem one time. Once. There are often multiple pieces of information, some relevant to the problem, and some not, that need to be sorted through to decide how to solve it. The students get to hear it ONCE. They are allowed to use scrap paper to take notes and to do whatever they need to do to arrive at an answer. The proctor is supposed to give them 10 seconds to do so.

One hearing, nothing to refer to after you've heard it, 10 seconds to arrive at an answer and fill in the bubble.

I offer this conclusion: the results have little to do with mathematical competency, and everything to do with auditory skills.

What do you want math instruction to look like in second grade? Should all math instruction and practice be done auditorily, without the use of writing, manipulatives, time to think, or proofs? That would be "teaching to the test" given to those students. Teaching them to perform using only one modality.