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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 06:36 PM
Original message
Education Stimulus "money down a rat hole."
The Colorado Public Education Business Coalition (PEBC) has recently been overrun with conservatives, who love nothing more than jabbing public ed with sharp sticks. Each week, they publish HeadFirst, a lively little rag with a snarky little editorial.

Last week, the editor, Alan Gottlieb, wrote:

"From the editor

This week’s $787 billion question: will the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, signed here in Denver today by President Obama, herald education reform’s salvation, or its doom?

It’s not that simple, of course. The roughly $100 billion (what’s a few hundred million among friends?) for education could pump some much-needed cash into public education in a time of dire need. But it could also be money down a rat hole if it does little more than perpetuate the status quo.

How this will play out is anyone’s guess. Education Secretary Arne Duncan talks a good game, vowing to use the money to drive systemic reforms. Time will tell."

Consequently, the Colorado Assoc. of School Executives replied:

"On February 17, Education News Colorado issued the following editorial comment from Alan Gottlieb, editor of the associated PEBC (Public Education and Business Coalition) e-publication called Headfirst. Gottlieb wrote about the stimulus:


"The roughly $100 billion (what’s a few hundred million among friends?) for education could pump some much-needed cash into public education in a time of dire need. But it could also be money down a rat hole if it does little more than perpetuate the status quo."


I guess that last sentence would be correct if you truly believe that nothing happening in our schools today is worth saving, expanding, or preserving. It is troubling that this “rat hole” comment comes to us from the PEBC. Educators know that public schools cannot operate in a static environment. We know that changes (reforms) are occurring in schools each day. We know that we need to close gaps and embrace new educational choices. But we also know a few things about teaching and learning and what works in classrooms today. Change for change’s sake is not always good.


In my experience, the PEBC has made a true commitment to improving our schools, and some of our most respected superintendents have served on its board. Education News Colorado is a valuable resource to anyone who wants to keep close track of the legislature, but this comment embraced uninformed hyperbole. The “rat hole” verbiage is the kind of thing that undermines the public trust and erodes business support for our schools. Is this what the PEBC stands for these days?"

Since then, Mr. Gottlieb has chosen to dissect CASE's letter in his blog, in true RW conservative style - denying he said what he said, accusing public ed of pooh-poohing the need for change, blah blah.

If you're interested, I'm sure he'd love to hear from you, too. You can post your own comments here:

http://ednewscolorado.org/headfirst-colorado-enewsletters/from-the-editor-february-24-2009.html

He might benefit from a little enlightenment.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. that's crap, obviously, but i do wonde if the money will be put to
the best use. the best use? COMPUTERS, COMPUTERS, AND MORE COMPUTERS.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Really? Why?
We have a shitload of computers already. The kids are really great at Facebook. And sending threats to one another over email.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Who has a shitload of computers? Oklahoma schools sure don't,
and I'm told that most schools don't.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well, I pay for $500,000 worth every three years.
They'd better be around here somewhere.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Where is/are the schools? how many classes have computers
for every student? Are tests and papers done online? That's what I want to see.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. It depends on the school.
We have one model, New Technology, that has a 1:1 ratio. They do everything online.

The other schools are more like 2:1 ratio. The definitely do papers on the computer. Tests - sometimes. A lot of the teachers don't like that. The standardized tests are all online.

I rarely see, however, truly creative uses of tech in the classroom. I can buy typewriters for a lot less, if that's what they need.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Automated powerpoint linked lesson plans? instantaneous test
grading,recording, and tutorials to assist students? nearly automatic attendance records? Links to Library of Congress, google Earth, webcams, science sources and other information sources? Essays written and corrected on Word documents? I can think of dozens of uses that would greatly enhance efficiency as well as curriculum content. Some day this will be the norm, and I contend that this stimulus money, if co-ordinated at a state level to provide efficency and cost effectiveness, could go a long way toward giving our kids a 21st century education. After all, it is their money we're spending right? Well, if the money stimulates jobs for us now, and enhances education for the kids now, that seems like the most fair way. What I don't want to see is the usual money spent the same way. This is our one opportunity to greatly boost our kid's schools.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. PowerPoint? Ick.
I see more time wasted on that stupid program than it's worth, by a long shot. The kids get far too distracted with the whizbangi-ness of it, and forget their supposed to be focusing on CONTENT. They'll spend a day working out the background style and font choice, and 15 minutes on the actual lesson. I absolutely hate it.

Attendance - yeah, just click a button to indicate who's in, who's out. Test scores linked to student files and data analysis software (Alpine). Teachers can check the latest quarterly or trimester test and see what skills the students still lack.

Full internet access with video pipe, districtwide. Many classrooms have LCDs, but the schools all have at least 3.

Essays on Word? Yes, but they print them out to grade them. The teachers can't make diacritical marks on Word. And they're not about to do the editing themselves. Nor should they.

But with all this, kids are kids. They'll spend their time on what they can get away with. When I walk in the classroom, the first thing I see is 20 screens switching from Facebook to their actual classwork. Having computers is not the panacea people seem to think it is.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'm imagining a classroom where the teacher has the lock and key
on all the workstations. If the kids are to be doing a specific task, then that is all that will be open to them. The teacher can pre-determine what can be opened. For instance, after a test is completed ,the kids workstation will allow him to do whatever the teacher input already as part of the lesson plan. The computer could also track what type of learner each kid was thought to be, and different kids could have different default activity openings. Those decision and actions have already been determined by the teacher. Powerpoint can get ridiculous if the effects are overdone, and the best presentations use very few. It is wonderful for adding visual content such as photos, maps, and videos. The wonderful part of the tool is that all the content can be organized beforehand in a very usable format. The classroom I'm imagining does not run on individual pcs, but more of a workstation setup. The use of the equipment and content would be primarily at the direction of the teacher, followed by school, district, and state policy. Surely a fed managed attempt to do this across the country could be done efficiently, with innovation and entrepeneurship speeding the manufacture, software, maintenance, and other jobs this would bring. The biggest problem I see is the energy costs the schools would incur. SO, in my pie in the sky, part of this project would involve somehow getting the schools energy efficient. If a fed program to build windmills to power high schools was enacted, how much innovation and production improvements might come to the wind power industry? I don't think it would take too many mills to power a school, and as long as a power company of some sort agreed to maintain the mills as long as they could buy off any excess power, it should really help grow an important industry. Now, I don't have any idea how much this kind of stuff would cost, but surely if the volume was created by these fed projects, the cost and efficiency should improve dramatically. I'm ahead of my time, except that this stimulus money is coming now, and I would like to see some kind of overarching plan, rather than a bunch of money that just gets spent on the same old stuff, or just kind of dissappears with no visible results.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Sounds to me like
you don't need a teacher, just a robot. Or a computer that will make the determination about what to allow a student to access.

It also sounds like it would cut most, or all, human interaction out of the learning process.

Which limits the quality of the learning, and the ability to apply, to analyze, to evaluate, to synthesize.

As well as leaving all those interpersonal learners out of the loop.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Not at all. Some kids learn better from hearing and watching a teacher,
Some kids learn better by reading. Some kids learn better by visual imagery. The classroom I envision will use all these and other tools simultaneously. Some lessons are better without any computer aid, others are better as individual activities, some will be better in group work. The teacher will remain the key to using these tools effectively, and will continue to be irreplaceable. The teacher will have greater flexibility, because their tasks will be incredibly more efficient. Many schools require that teachers provide weekly copies of lesson plans to the office. If those plans are online, the office already has the plans in it's database, and also a more complete activity option for substitutes.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. That's interesting.
Edited on Sat Feb-28-09 02:37 PM by LWolf
Because most of that already happens, to the extent that resources are available.

Most teachers would reduce class size first, because we know that the most important factor is relationship building. When we build relationships with our students and are families, we have working partnerships, rather than oppositional or confrontational relations. We know each student well enough to know how that individual learns best, and to make sure that we provide enough opportunities to do so that they will succeed. We get to give each student more of our attention.

I'd rather that we updated our server and our machines, which we can't afford to do, than that we added more computers to our already overloaded server. That's just me.

Providing the technology that you envision is prohibitively expensive even in flush years, let alone this year, when districts around my state are all planning early school closures because, after cutting all supply budgets, field trips, staff development, the new math adoption, and closing our alternative high school, sending those students back into the general population, we still can't finish the year on the mid-year cuts that have come down the pipe.

Our students already attend one of the shortest years in the nation: 168 student days. We could do more to improve their education by reducing class size and extending their year than an influx of computers could do.

My students take online assessments, they use our computers to research, and use them for word processing. They've also used them to create power points, but not often, as I don't find them to really extend learning. They use spreadsheets in math and science. They've used them for a few webquests, as well.

They don't get instruction from computers, though. They get instruction from me. Technology is a tool, not a teacher.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. We use a program called "Insight"
this allows the teacher to control what programs the kids are using. A mini-screen of each student computer appears on the teacher's monitor. The teacher can close programs, send messages to the students, and lock all programs out except the one the student is supposed to be using. Our teachers who use it like it -- especially when they have 30 workstations to monitor.

Here's a link:

http://www.faronics.com/html/Insight.asp?vert=education#vertical

It's $600 a classroom (1-4) but they have volume pricing. I don't know how many workstations that covers.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Super cool. Another key to this idea of mine, is that interfaces and
option choices for students as well as teachers need to be exceedingly user friendly. A quick look at this website encourages me that this program can work that way.
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endersdragon34 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Dream On
Okay... so we are going to pay for a computer for every student in America while schools are closing left and right, in the words of Aerosmith, "Dream On", do you have any clue how much that would cost? Lets get good textbooks, good desks, good school buildings, and pay teachers more, before we worry about getting enough computers for every student in America.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Not computers for every student. Computers for every student in
most classrooms. A student carries a login and password just like most of us do at work. Music classes and PE classes would not need this setup, but most other classes would benefit greatly. I have no idea what the initial costs would be, but if the fed primed the pump with some startup costs, private industries would drive the rest. The workstations would not be computers, but workstations that link to a main processor type deal. Volume should also help the costs down.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I don't necessarily see this as useful in science
In some ways yes... but mainly no.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Why dissect a formaldehyde preserved frog, if you can virtually
Edited on Sat Feb-28-09 03:40 PM by daninthemoon
dissect a computer frog all the way down to the cellular or even molecular level? Earth sciences can observe continental drift and mountain building at a fast observable rate. Live webcams of Mt St Helens and other features. Chemistry may be Best left alone, but then again, micro spic imaging of phenomena could be highly instructive. Overall, the key is the workstations and software be considered as tools for the teacher.
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endersdragon34 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. What about math?
Social studies and english are the classes where I can most see this being handy. Art... not so much (unless its like a webpage design class which would take place in a computer lab anyway), woodshop... not so much, and math and science not so much (maybe at some levels in science, but not most of the time; beyond that most of it could be done with an Elmo (where you project the computer onto the screen) a lot cheapter). Beyond that... with your plan... at many schools I have ever been in, that would make more then 1 computer for every student in the room, only in high schools might that not be the case. How about we agree to have the teacher have a good computer in every room, with an Elmo projector, and most importantly... teach the teacher her how to use it, at the present time it doesn't matter what we do with technology because most teachers over the age of 30 don't really know to use it and I would be willing to bet anyone in a poorer school district doesn't know how to use it either.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Tech knowledge would be important for the teacher at any age.
I hope, but don't assume, that even older teachers have a degree of familiarity. I agree that at least one computer with a projector is the pitiful minimum that we should expect for our kids in the 21st century. I disagree about the math, though. I think tutorials and instant feedback on exams would be highly beneficial. Again though, the teacher's instruction is imperative. My own focus is social studies education, and I agree that it is the most appropriate place for individual workstations.
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sally jo Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Yes, I agree that some administrators may think the answer is to buy a bunch of computers
even while they don't have enough textbooks (or they are in poor condition/out of date). If we could have an outside evaluation to make sure the funds are being used in the most appropriate ways, that would be the best...
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
21. This is what education money down a rathole looks like.
http://www.ignitelearning.com/

(you've got to see the material!)

And now, the rest of the story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignite!
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