What if a college education just isn't for everyone?

[tonysam]

The ONLY reasons "reformers" are pushing college for all high school students are two-fold: to create a huge labor pool of highly educated people in order to depress wages and salaries in occupations requiring a college degree, and to create an underclass of dropouts and pushouts, who then can be exploited for cheap labor. (No doubt the bankers and those involved in the student loan industry also have an interest in promoting the "college for all" nonsense.)

A college education isn't the right thing for everybody or even most people. Vocational training in high school is what is needed for those not inclined to go to college but can work in jobs which provide a good standard of living.

From the USA Today piece (via Susan Ohanian's site):

Long before President Obama vowed last year that
America will "have the highest proportion of college
graduates in the world" by 2020, the premium
placed on going to college was firmly embedded in
the American psyche.

The case is compelling: As good jobs increasingly
require more education, college is widely seen as
the ticket to personal economic security and to
global competitiveness. And the message has gotten
through: The percentage of students who went on to
college or trade school within a year of high school
climbed from 47% in 1973 to 67% in 2007, Census
data show.

And yet, there's an undercurrent of concern about a
group of students — sometimes called "the forgotten
half," a phrase coined 22 years ago by social
scientists studying at-risk young people — who, for
whatever reason, do not think college is for them.
It's expressed by soul-searching parents such as
Crave, whose son doesn't thrive in the classroom.
It's also expressed increasingly by educators,
economists and policy analysts, who question
whether it's realistic and responsible to push
students into college even if the odds of academic
success seem low.

They're swimming against a powerful tide. A small but growing number of states now require all high-schoolers to take a college entrance exam. Philadelphia's mayor opened an office in City Hall last month to help residents get information about how to attain a college degree. Bill Gates, perhaps the world's most famous college dropout, has poured more than $2 billion into programs and scholarships to help more students complete college.

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Susan Ohanian is right: "Why is 'advising' students that some education beyond high school is not necessary for everyone" considered a 'lesser goal'? Becoming an accomplished farmer is a different, not a lesser, goal."

[Orrex]

1. A third reason

A great many of those students who already fall into the first or second category will also find themselves bound inescapably into loans that far exceeds the value of the degrees they've earned. So in addition to driving down the competitive wage and creating a desperate pool of exploitable labor, they'll be saddled with thousands of dollars worth of debt, and when they start missing payments and sliding into default, that's when the real predatory profiteering begins!

[sandnsea]

2. Oh for fucks sake this is bullshit

Do you have any comprehension of the kind of education it takes to farm??

If you want an intelligent population, then EVERYBODY needs to at least have a high school education that would prepare them for college.

They don't HAVE to go to college after that, but the high school graduate should be smart enough to do that IF THEY WANT TO.

And the reason they are FINALLY pushing that standard is because we live in a technological world and it requires knowledge to compete in it.

If we can't even get teachers to validate high academic standards, how in the hell do you expect illiterate parents to?

[FSogol]

3. Agreed. The Construction Supervisor with a year or two of community college work

is much better than some high school grad on the work site. What the hell is wrong with encouraging most students to go to college?

[Catshrink]

5. Who's going to pay for it for one thing?

For those of us who work in education, we know there are some kids who just don't want to go to college. Some kids don't have the self-discline to attend college right after high school -- they need to mature a bit more. Square peg, round hole.

[FSogol]

6. That's why there are community colleges. There is nothing more

important than paying for your kid's education.

[Catshrink]

7. Except maybe food & shelter.

Are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

[sandnsea]

10. I don't care if they don't want to go

YOU shouldn't be telling them it's okay to be TOO STUPID TO GO.

And you BLAME THE PARENTS???? YOU are the problem.

Gads.

[HeresyLives]

4. I find it amazing how often this is said.

It's like education is a bad thing, and an attempt is being made to discourage people from 'bothering' with it.

When I was a kid it was a commonplace comment: 'I didn't graduate high school, and I've done alright.'

They didn't know...what they didn't know.

We can't afford this attitude anymore.

[rrneck]

8. To my mind

everybody needs a liberal arts education. They might not necessarily need an undergraduate degree in some specialized field.

We aren't short on technical expertise so much as a lack of cultural understanding.

[tonysam]

14. No they don't.

We need carpenters, plumbers, mechanics, food servers, clerical workers, and others.

Elitism needs to be thrown in the trash can.

[sandnsea]

19. The DU Education forum hero

:crazy:

[rrneck]

30. A liberal arts education is

one of the best defenses against elitism.

Joe the Plumber wouldn't be Joe the Plumber if he had anything like a decent education. If we had a population that had an understanding about the world beyond their own occupational skill we might not be so quick to elect a president that we would "like to have a beer with".

[Berry Cool]

9. I don't think college is for everyone, or that everybody needs to or should go,

but I do believe that everyone who has the ability and desire should be able to go--as in, lack of money should not be a bar to attendance.

I think there should be other alternatives for those who aren't "college material," so that they could learn a skilled trade and make a good living at it. But of course, they won't be able to do that if companies keep outsourcing that kind of work because they don't care about worker skill or employing people in their own country, but are only looking for the cheapest workers globally.

I don't see why making sure college application and attendance information is freely available to all is a terrible thing. Let everyone know how to apply and what's involved in going. Then they can decide for themselves whether it's something they want to do. The ideal is not to tell anyone "You can't go" just because of inability to pay. However, there will always be those who "shouldn't go" because it's just not an ideal use of their time or of the money.

[sandnsea]

11. Skilled trades require education

An 8th grade educated plumber just doesn't cut it anymore.

[HeresyLives]

13. 70% of all new jobs require post-secondary education.

Our school systems are very different...I'm in Canada...so it's hard to compare them, but here 'college' teaches a trade.

Academic training is university.

[sandnsea]

16. Our community colleges teach trades

They also provide freshman and some sophomore year basic courses, a way for kids to live at home and go to school cheaply.

[HeresyLives]

21. So there are two kinds of college?

Thank you, I didn't know that. :hi:

[sandnsea]

24. Comm College, College, and University with Masters Programs

Then there's this whole other industry of DeVry Technical School, Truck Driving School, Cosmetology, Culinary, etc etc. Some of them are excellent, others are scams.

It is difficult to maneuver from McDonalds to a career in this country. Kids with wealthy parents have the luxury of sitting in a 4 year college while they grow up enough to figure it out.

[HeresyLives]

26. Ahhh the light dawns....!

Ours is high school, college for trade, university for undergrad degrees, and then graduate school for Masters and above. Medical and law school count as graduate schools too.

Minor differences but it's made it confusing to follow education debates on here, so thanks for clearing that up!

[sandnsea]

32. Some universities have undergrads too

Just to clarify. But when we say go to college, we generally mean get a four year degree to prepare for a career for a marine biologist, accountant, journalist, teacher, etc. Masters and PhD usually come later, but sometimes people stay in school straight through. My neice is, she gets her PhD in psychology this year. She'll turn 28 in December. Long time to go to school for sure.

[HeresyLives]

34. Okay that might explain Bill Gates

People often say he's a drop-out, but as far as I could see he dropped out of Harvard, which would be university.

I understood he had college, but I'm not sure what a 'prep-school' is, and if it's the same.

They are promoting 'life-long learning' here, and people can go back to school at any time...physically or online.

It's assumed you'll have 5-7 jobs in your working lifetime, and will need the upgrading.

[sandnsea]

38. Prep-school is a private elite high school

I would imagine those students come out with as much education as regular kids out of a 2 year community college. We have introduced advanced placement classes in public schools so more kids have an opportunity to get the kind of education of prep school kids get. Although in my opinion, too many schools have dumbed down the regular curriculum and AP courses are the same as what regular public high school used to be. Meaning private prep school is still more rigorous.

So Gates got an outstanding education, I think his father was a well respected lawyer. He was accepted to Harvard, which is no easy task. Harvard has both undergrads and graduate. He dropped out before he even got a bachelors degree. But we aren't all Bill Gates.

Basically all colleges and universities have 4 year degrees. I don't know any university that doesn't have 4 year BA degrees. University also offers masters degrees, and various universities offer various PhDs. My neice had to leave Arkansas, for instance, to get her PhD. There is a university in Arkansas, several in fact. None offer a PhD in psychology although I know there is a law school in Arkansas.

[HeresyLives]

40. Ahh NOW it all makes sense.

No we aren't all Bill Gates, and he's held up to be an example of what a 'drop-out' can accomplish. That worries me because it strikes me as saying the same as 'I don't need an education because I have a band, or I can play basketball', and for every one that 'makes it' there are millions that don't.

Congrats to your niece!

[tonysam]

15. High schools used to have career clusters or vocational training

and that needs to come back. Screw this "college for all" crap.

And yes, I have two college degrees.

[sandnsea]

17. I graduated in 1975

There was no career cluster or vocational training. There were a few business classes where you could learn some basic secretarial skills, and there was shop and wood shop. That was about what there was when my mother went to high school in the 40s. The local high school has a CNA course and had a culinary course that we may have lost in budget cuts, not sure. We also have AP and college credit courses. Many high schools are making transitions, unlike dumb-ass Nevada. But whether a high school student is a CNA or off to college, they both need to be educated because I really don't think you want someone taking your blood pressure who can't read a high school level newspaper.

[Fire1]

45. In 1975, that was in your state, not all. Secondly, it's mighty

curious that all of these "vocational" institutions are popping up that teach the same skilled trades and vocations that the high schools used to teach. Everest Institute for nursing assistants, cooks, mechanics, etc., Spec Howard for communications (radio and TV)and all kinds of cosmetology schools. These students could have gotten these same skills while in high school.

[flamin lib]

12. I have a double BS degree and a double MS degree and

I'm having a hard time convincing myself that my grandchildren need that much education.

So what if they get a EE degree? All that design work is now outsourced to China. Learn IT? Why when it's cheaper to get H1B visas to do the work. Pick a career, any career, and tell me that it will be here when they graduate.

On the other hand learning a trade like plumbing or pest extermination could generate a comfortable living for the rest of these kid's lives. Leaky pipes and roaches aren't going to be out sourced, that's for damn sure.

I'd like to see them get a good liberal arts education so they learn to think but as for preparing for a career? Not so much.

[Silent3]

18. The way you say "the only reason" is as if there's a cabal...

...of sinister forces cackling with glee as they unfold their nefarious scheme to send everyone to college so they can oppress more people.

Bwahahahaha! We'll get them using college! No one will suspect! :eyes:

Even if you want to argue that the outcome of more people going to college wouldn't actually be a good thing (not that I think that argument will hold up too well) you're being ridiculous imputing sinister motives from people who think college education is a good thing and that more people should have it. Even if there are a few twisted individuals out there who think that way, they're not likely to represent a very large portion of people with a pro-college stance.

[provis99]

20. banks push people to go to college. You know why? They make their money that way.

Student loan debt is the worst kind of debt you can have. Frankly, college does zero to increase your earning ability; it merely leaves you in massive amounts of debt. University does NOTHING to train you for a job; for that kind of thing, vocational school should be used. There should be a two track school system. One path would shuttle the majority of students into a vocational school at around 15 years old, so they can quickly be trained and shipped off into the job field, which is what they really want anyways. A smaller track can be used for those with aptitude for university, with the understanding that university is intended only to broaden your mind; we need to stop lying to our youth and telling them university is necessary for a job, when it isn't.

[sandnsea]

22. We've had that for 20 years

I'm amazed that people don't understand that AP courses put about 10% of the students on the college track, and the rest were labeled "school to work" kids -- and got a dumbed down education.

It is stunning to me that DU constantly complains about how stupid citizens are, and how badly educated young people are -- and then turn right around and support the low quality education system that created these stupid kids.

If you want a population intelligent enough to figure out that Sarah Palin is a fool - YOU HAVE TO EDUCATE THEM.

[HeresyLives]

25. Wow, I'll agree with that!

There are complaints on here every day about how badly-educated people are...from misspelled tea party signs, to Palin supporters, to climate deniers etc, yet education seems to be taboo.

:shrug: WTF?

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. There's a difference between uneducated and ignorant

Some ignorant people are very well educated.

[HeresyLives]

35. I can't see people being 'educated'

and remaining ignorant.

Either there's a problem with the education, or the person is trying to appear dumb for political gain.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. One of the smartest friends I had in college is now a doctor and a teabagger

Who has more education than a doctor?

You should see his bumper stickers:scared:

[HeresyLives]

43. Then there's a problem with his education.

Learning anatomy didn't teach him to think, or know anything about the world he lives in.

Lots of professions require more education than a medical doctor, and it's usually a more well-rounded one.

An engineer could be KKK if ALL they study is engineering.

[HeresyLives]

23. This will come as news to engineers, doctors, scientists,

lawyers, professors and all manner of other professions who went to university for their jobs.

A 15 year old has no clue what to do with his/her life, and certainly shouldn't be shuntled off into vocational school for jobs that don't exist.

[Silent3]

27. Not everyone, however, recommending more college...

...is a bank.

[ChicagoSuz219]

28. It's for college AND career training. n/t

[HeresyLives]

29. What level of education does a teacher need in the US?

The teachers-are-bad v teachers-are-good debate is hard to follow without knowing that.

[sandnsea]

33. 4 year degree, BA usually n/t

[HeresyLives]

36. And is that college or university?

Colleges here don't give out degrees, so it's a university bachelors...plus where I live, a year of teacher's training.

So you have a BA and a BEd....bachelor of education...and are said to be 'babed'. :)

[sandnsea]

37. Either one

There are four year colleges, very good and expensive private colleges, that offer four year degrees. And yes there is a BEd too, but you can get a teaching certificate without that specific degree. Each state also has requirements, and sometimes reciprocity between states.

[HeresyLives]

39. Ta muchly!

[mzteris]

41. That's why the new plan support CAREER readiness

as well as College.

"Four of every 10 new college students, including half of those at 2-year institutions, take remedial courses, and many employers comment on the inadequate preparation of high school graduates."

". . . assessments in other academic or career and technical subjects

[HeresyLives]

44. Last question, I promise.

If you can get a 4 year college bachelors degree, or a 4 year university bachelors degree...is there any difference between the two of them?