higher degrees online - whaddy'all think?

[ulysses]

My assistant principal got her doctorate online...in a year. I find these more than a little suspect, but they're flourishing around here. Any thoughts?

[Demeter]

1. Maybe It Works for Educators, Who Know It All Anyway, and MBA Wannabes

:sarcasm:

But I doubt that a doctor, lawyer, scientist or engineer would get anywhere with that kind of scam.

I'd rank it with mail order ministries.

[ulysses]

8. I'd agree about the ranking,

but it seems as if you maybe have other issues with teachers...?

[Demeter]

20. I Was a Gifted Kid--Self Taught

Had very few teachers who could keep up with me, or were willing to try, and that was before all the "modernization" of the curriculum. Teaching today isn't even as successful as it was then. (Gifted parents have gifted kids, and so get to watch yet another generation spinning its wheels and looking for alternatives.)

If a kid meets one good teacher, that's more than most will. And that's at any level of ability.

And by the way, Grandmother was a teacher--and she'd agree if she were still around today!

[ulysses]

21. ok, so was I.

Not sure what branch of the field your grandmother was in, but after nine years in the classroom (eight as a special ed teacher), I'll say this - teaching is the most difficult thing I've ever done, and I'm no educational slouch. I don't think there's anything wrong with being self-taught beyond a certain level - it's what most people do.

[NCDem60]

29. Gifted or arrogant?

I had a student that sounded just like you do in this post. I was an assistant principal who taught two classes every day because I didn't want to lose touch. I saw this boy in my office often for disrespect, basically telling teachers they were clueless and not nearly as smart as was he. In fact he told me the same thing, much to my amusement.
I had him moved into one of my classes that were on a 6 week rotation. Every day for six weeks I made sure I asked him a question on the days subject that I knew he wouldn't be able to answer. I always expressed surprise that he didn't know he answer and would explain it to him and to the rest of the class. A side benefit was the fact that we covered quite a bit of extra material. His attitude did change toward me for the better, but he still continued his problems in other classes. His parents supported his behavior based on his "superiority" to other people.
He dropped out in 11th grade. He said he was just to smart to waste his time in school with a bunch of losers. Last year at 4am one morning, he wrapped his car around a tree and was killed. He was 18. Alcohol was involved. Apparently his particular form of mental superiority didn't pass the Darwin test.

[Demeter]

32. No. Totally Cowed

It is now, past the half-century and having lived more like a hundred years in crisis mode, that I am not only extremely capable and confident, but out to right wrongs. So sit on your own arrogance. You failed that boy.

[NCDem60]

33. Sorry, no.

His parents failed him.

[noamnety]

38. Wow.

You went out of your way to try to hurt the kid's self-esteem, you sound like it's some kind of perverse victory for you that he dropped out, and is dead now.

I know we post anonymously here, but you should maybe think about how your post would sound to his parents, and whether you'd be proud to have them read it.

[NCDem60]

40. Read it again.

My relationship with that boy improved greatly over the six weeks he was in my class. Why? Because he began to respect me for my knowledge and the time I spent discussing things with him.
I don't want to hear any self esteem crap. That movement was doomed from the start. Read my lips, it is impossible to give someone self esteem. It has to be earned.
As for the parents, I told them they were failing their child more than two years before he left school. My comment would not be a surprise.

[enlightenment]

2. There are some very reputable online programs

that are accredited and quite rigourous. There are some that are not.

A one year doctorate makes me a little suspect - it generally takes that long to write a doctoral thesis, much less complete the coursework. Say three years, if you're really on the ball. Even if you speed up the coursework by taking multiple courses, I don't see how you could do a rigourous program in one year. Do you know what program they took?

[Burma Jones]

5. The average time to Doctorate I see cited is 5-7 years

Took me 6

[enlightenment]

22. In the US, in a brick and mortar environment, yeah.

I've seen it done in 3 years (a history PhD) by a real go-getter who was able to attend full-time and work on the diss full-time as well.

Three years is closer to reality in the UK (for the social sciences and humanities, anyway), because they use a totally different program setup. There's an assumption that you already have the training - the classroom work - accomplished, so you don't have the extensive course requirements.

It's probably changing there as well now; the dumbing down of higher education is spreading like a miasma over the planet!

[Burma Jones]

3. Most of a Doctorate is the Dissertation

And most of the back and forth writing my Dissertation was done through Email.

However, I did attend classes for two years and did have to regularly meet my Dissertation Advisor in person.

[ulysses]

9. I just don't see how you'd do it all online.

Then again, I'm doing the brick-n-mortar route, so I don't want my drivetime to GA State to bias me. :)

[Burma Jones]

10. You can't do it all online, or in a year.

That sort of degree would be laughed out of any reputable school. Who the hell accredits that sort of program anyway?

[ulysses]

13. beats me,

but districts pay and promote based on them.

[Burma Jones]

14. Damn, and I went out and busted hump for mine

oh well.....It has helped me a lot though.

[panader0]

4. Well, I'm a college dropout, so I'm not sure my opinion carries

any weight, but I think a real, living teacher has to be better. I had a few that made impressions on me. That said, the convenience and savings of on-line educations are a big plus. (Don't try it on a dial up though. You'd get thrown out of class for abusing the teacher.)

[ulysses]

6. of course it does.

As it happens, I agree with you, which doesn't hurt. ;-)

[Forkboy]

7. I'm skeptical

I've been working on Snarkology for years here at DU and Skinner still hasn't sent me my degree. x(

[ulysses]

12. he's not the accrediting agency.

Find a regular poster in GDP for Snarkology. :D

[Kajsa]

11. I don't know about Masters and Doctorate Degrees,

but I took online courses to complete requirements for
my CLAD certification and clear my SS credential with
no problems.

The course work was not easy, and I had to turn in my assignments
on time, just like in a classroom.

Are these schools offering the programs accredited?

If so, they have to fulfill certain requirements.

[ulysses]

15. don't know who accredits them,

if and when they are accredited. I would guess that some would have to be, in order to count toward school district pay, but I've learned not to count on common sense things like that in some districts.

I can see online degrees for undergrad work and *maybe* masters level, but doctorate? No. I've decided not to pursue a PhD after I finish my masters because I've been told that doctoral candidates with kids are regularly in tears because they don't get to spend any time with their families, and I don't want to get to the other side of a doctorate and not remember what my son was like when he was 3, 4 or 5. Or 6, 7 and 8. I don't imagine that a one-year online program would be nearly as rigorous.

[Kajsa]

24. No, it's not, Ulysses.

And I agree, spending time with your family
is a top priority.

The little ones grow up way too soon.

;-)

[2Design]

16. master online - takes about two years - so doctorate would be about three years

http://www.capella.edu is well known and gives rigorous homework and deadlines - Got my Master IT degree
Currently getting another Master from George Washington University, online in Education

[ulysses]

18. but why the difference in time between online and real time?

Doctorates traditionally take longer than three years.

That said, I know GWU is a good school.

[2Design]

25. three years beyond the master - do the research n/t

[ulysses]

26. can you unpack that a little?

[HereSince1628]

17. Maybe (or maybe not) there is more to it than you saw...

In some fields people take graduate work to fulfill continuing education requirements or to move up a formulated career ladder. Maybe your ass't principal did that. Consequently, there may have been hours of coursework that were accepted into the on-line program and not included in the one-year thing.

[ulysses]

19. true, that's possible.

Thanks. :)

[jody]

23. Some/Many/Most of those degrees rely on on-line tests for all material in a course and use

multiple-choice or true/false tests prepared by a book publisher.

Consequently there is no proof that the student in question actually took a test or knew the material.

It's easy under those conditions for a program to become a diploma mill.

My source is personal experience teaching a few graduate and undergraduate courses on-line and many discussions with other professors and instructors from many schools that offer on-line programs.

I stopped teaching on-line courses because the university would not require at least one proctored, comprehensive test over course material for all on-line courses.

I'm disappointed that regional accreditation organizations and special accreditation organizations, e.g. CHEA and AACSB, do not police on-line programs more rigorously.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. You do know there is a difference between a PhD and an EdD?

The PhD is over 100 hours of course work plus a dissertation. EdD is far less. But they are both considered doctorates and districts pay at the doctorate level for both of them.

[ulysses]

28. right - this isn't a specialist degree, from what I understand.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

34. Your numbers generalize ...

As just one example, the PhD and the EdD in the College of Education and Human Development at the University of Minnesota for the educational administration (k-12) program track both require 76 hours of course work:

http://cehd.umn.edu/EdPA/edad/EdDandPhD.html

[NCDem60]

30. Advanced Degrees

With each degree you learn more and more about less and less. Eventually, when you reach the doctorate level, you know everything about nothing.

[jody]

31. Interesting but some people reach that level with little education. n/t

[noamnety]

35. Depends on your learning style.

I'm working on a masters online. And yes, I actually have to work - I have to write papers, collaborate with other team members online, and so on. I can't take the classes back to back because I fall behind at work when I'm taking a class, and then I need a month or so break so I can catch up in my real life before going back to another class. The stats course I took had me staying up til midnight regularly - it was common for me to put in 5 hours a day on it.

4 of us here are working on masters degrees. 2 of us are doing online classes.

The two of us doing it online, we're introverts, and I notice both of us during staff meetings just tune out entirely. We're the doodlers - we end up with pages of drawings, notes to ourselves about other projects we're working on. Sitting through a classroom lecture is a waste of time for me, I sit there and put in my time and daydream, then go home and read the material and learn it on my own anyway. We're also both computer geeks in general, so it comes naturally to us as a form of communication now.

The other two coworkers are more extroverted, and they passionately hate the online system. They have to talk through issues with other people to solidify their thoughts - where to me that's sometimes unbearable - it comes across as droning. We go back and forth even just as friends, where I'm always saying "can't you just email me?" and they don't get why I don't "just pick up the phone and call if I have a question." Neither learning process is better or worse, unless it's the wrong fit for a person ... then it's definitely worse.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

36. You're making a leap there ...

Doctorate in a year? Probably bogus. But your beef should be with the institution and its accrediting body, not the fact that the degree is offered online.

There are some very rigorous, accredited graduate and doctorate programs out there which may be completed partially or entirely online.

There are also some fly-by-night schools looking to print up diplomas for anyone who pays them. That has always been the case in higher education - diploma mills existed long before the World Wide Web. But having been through the accrediting process for programs myself (Higher Learning Commission), I can tell you that accreditation is a long process in which the college must show evidence of rigor in curriculum and assessment, evidence of student support and - for online/hybrid programs and courses - evidence of strong and reliable technical infrastructure for students to access. It's not a perfect process, but it takes years and several college visits by P.I.s for the accrediting body (if a legit accrediting body).

And if the program has national professional accreditation as well (common in health and science professions, for example), there is another standard to be met for the program to get the required professional accreditation required for graduates to work in the field. In addition to the program itself meeting several of the organizations standards (dealing with curriculum, faculty, etc.), many times graduates must also pass a national board exam after completing study at college. If too many students score poorly on these board exams, that will be addressed when the program is up for accreditation again, both with the professional organization and the college's accrediting body.

You are right about online flourishing, especially at two-year community and vocational colleges. The 2006 Sloan Consortium report on distance education indicates that nearly twenty percent of all U.S. higher education students were taking at least one online course in the fall of 2006 (http://www.sloan-c.org/publications/survey/survey07.asp).

[electron_blue]

37. I wouldn't put faith in a doctorate earned in a year, but...

I think online learning has the potential for a lot of value. I don't see how it can save you 4-5 years of time, however. Smells fishy. I wonder if your asst princ got a Ph.D. or an Ed.D., which can be earned quicker than a PhD for many people anyway.

[CRK7376]

39. I earned two online

Master's degrees from accredited university programs. Not the easiest thing to do, but it was a good experience and I now have the degrees. The first one was an MBA that checked the block for promotion. I will never use it, have no interest in the field, but it was paid for and free so I took advantage of it and learned something along the way. THe second degree is in Secondary Education and that I will use when I retire from the Army. Neither degree would stack up to a similar degree from Yale, Harvard, Duke or Penn State, but I learned from the process. I am currently about 3 months from completing my 3rd Master's degree and it's kicked my butt from day one. Not much use for it in the civilian market either, but again, I've learned alot and been forced to read stuff that I would not normally touch. WOrthwhile process. For me Online Education has been very beneficial and I support it. But it has to be from an accredited college/university program.