Fuck Assimilation

[Eryemil]

I am a young gay guy and I would like to think I am free of the hang ups that still plague the older queer generations.
There was no traumatic coming out or family rejection for me, my friends didn't turn their backs on me when I came out in middle school.
I live in one of the few countries on Earth were queers are full citizens under the law.

Which is why I cannot understand this eagerness to convince the hetero majority that we're exactly like them.
Our rights as human beings should not depend on whether we're likable and nonthreatening enough for them to be able to ignore our existence.
These rights should not depend on our willingness to conform to the myopic standards of morality they impose upon themselves either.

I should elaborate.

How many times have you heard from other queers of how we do ourselves a disservice by participating in things like pride parades? I can't count the times.
I think this mindset stinks. We are not murderers or rapists, our safety and enfranchisement should not be based on appeasing those that would seek to harm us.
I understand that we are a global minority, cursed to depend on the good will of the majority but we also live in secular societies that boast about doing as best for as many of their citizens as possible, at least in theory.

On the subject of morality the queer community reminds me a bit of African Americans and other ethnic groups in our willingness to adopt the beliefs and attitudes of our oppressors. Just like African slaves and the native American tribes across the Americas we have internalized the very religious nonsense and arbitrary morality that has been used to keep us in line.

In the end, trying to conform to the ideals of the majority leaves us just as bigoted. Particularly, because we're so eager to prove just how well we fit in.


The point of this little rant is that I am sick of seeing hearing other homos bitch about how how embarrassing trannies and drag queens are, brag about how straight-acting they are and how much of a macho top they are. I'm sick of hearing fellow queers put down those among us that choose to be promiscuous, live in polyamorous partnerships or open relationships.


*deep breaths*

[Jamastiene]

1. K&R

Great rant!

[Yes We Did]

2. Can you elaborate on this?

"On the subject of morality the queer community reminds me a bit of African Americans and other ethnic groups in our willingness to adopt the beliefs and attitudes of our oppressors. Just like African slaves and the native American tribes across the Americas we have internalized the very religious nonsense and arbitrary morality that has been used to keep us in line."

I can't speak for "African Slaves" but my the Native American community I grew up with was extremely proud and had no qualms about celebrating or displaying it. I don't quite see where you are coming from with your comment. And it's not just my tribe I can refer to. I have participated in many celebrations with other tribes, also not ashamed or embarrassed to fully embrace their culture.

Aside from that, I think you are spot on... Except maybe on the being promiscuous part... But that's not really a GLBT thing... that's just a human thing. Of course, what you eat doesn't make me shit, and isn't really my place (or anyone else's) to judge.

[Eryemil]

4. ...

"I can't speak for "African Slaves" but my the Native American community I grew up with was extremely proud and had no qualms about celebrating or displaying it. I don't quite see where you are coming from with your comment. And it's not just my tribe I can refer to. I have participated in many celebrations with other tribes, also not ashamed or embarrassed to fully embrace their culture."

There is more to "culture" than language and dress, but you know this. Think of Hawaii before the missionaries arrived like a swarm of locust.
A polytheistic people with an ancient history of same-sex relationships that persisted until recently.
How many Hawaiians still practice the religion of their ancestors? The government is struggling to pass civil union legislation last time I looked.

What is the religious adherence of most American Natives? The overwhelming majority is protestant Christian, in a continent that used to be a patchwork of different social and religious beliefs.
When the Cherokee and Navajo banned same-sex marriage within their tribes, what do you think was the real reason?

The African slaves brought to the new world struggled to hold on to their identity. Their descendants today use the same religious beliefs used subjugate their ancestors as a tool to discriminate others.


"Aside from that, I think you are spot on... Except maybe on the being promiscuous part... But that's not really a GLBT thing... that's just a human thing. Of course, what you eat doesn't make me shit, and isn't really my place (or anyone else's) to judge."

No, it's a cultural thing.

[Yes We Did]

25. It's not that way with my tribe.

Can't speak for all others, but perhaps you shouldn't generalize either.

[noiretextatique]

27. slaves could not openly practice their religions

i read recently that more americans are returning to the african religions, such as yoruba and ifa. there are many people who practice those religions in california where i live.

i think you do a disservice to people like me, african-american and gay, when you use such a broad brush to make your point. and, the NAACP is one of the many organizations that submitted a brief to the CA Supreme Court in opposition to Prop 8.

not all african americans are using religion to discriminate against gay people, especially not the gay ones.

[FreeState]

3. Good rant.... but there are a couple things I dont agree with at all

I am a young gay guy and I would like to think I am free of the hang ups that still plague the older queer generations.
There was no traumatic coming out or family rejection for me, my friends didn't turn their backs on me when I came out in middle school.
I live in one of the few countries on Earth were queers are full citizens under the law.

Okay - Im 38 and I take huge issue with your assessment of older GLBT people. More on that later - however I do not agree we are full citizens under the law. Not at all. We can not form our relationships under the law. We are not protected at work under the law, at our homes or our choice of faith or no faith among many other areas.

Which is why I cannot understand this eagerness to convince the hetero majority that we're exactly like them.
Our rights as human beings should not depend on whether we're likable and nonthreatening enough for them to be able to ignore our existence.
These rights should not depend on our willingness to conform to the myopic standards of morality they impose upon themselves either.

In agreement here outside of the fact as humans and citizens we are exactly the same as far as the government goes.

I should elaborate.

Please do.

How many times have you heard from other queers of how we do ourselves a disservice by participating in things like pride parades? I can't count the times.
I think this mindset stinks. We are not murderers or rapists, our safety and enfranchisement should not be based on appeasing those that would seek to harm us.
I understand that we are a global minority, cursed to depend on the good will of the majority but we also live in secular societies that boast about doing as best for as many of their citizens as possible, at least in theory.

Going back to the age comment above, how do you reconcile that with this? Drag Queens started Stonewall. Older GLBT persons started theses same parades and are more than often the ones organizing and running them to this day. There are not many young Dikes on Bikes. There are not many young men at most non-mainstream bars (in the areas I have been - San Diego, San Francisco, LA). If you take a moment and look at the wanted adds on Criagslist or any other dating service you will quickly see things like "straight acting only" - now notice the age of the people saying this. Its almost always younger gays. Same with those that are ashamed of Pride - its not the older gays in my experience, but rather the younger GLBT people who did not have to fight for their very existence growing up.

On the subject of morality the queer community reminds me a bit of African Americans and other ethnic groups in our willingness to adopt the beliefs and attitudes of our oppressors. Just like African slaves and the native American tribes across the Americas we have internalized the very religious nonsense and arbitrary morality that has been used to keep us in line.

In the end, trying to conform to the ideals of the majority leaves us just as bigoted. Particularly, because we're so eager to prove just how well we fit in.

The point of this little rant is that I am sick of seeing hearing other homos bitch about how how embarrassing trannies and drag queens are, brag about how straight-acting they are and how much of a macho top they are. I'm sick of hearing fellow queers put down those among us that choose to be promiscuous, live in polyamorous partnerships or open relationships.

I do not see GLBT people doing this any more than any other human - and the reason for that is not just because we are oppressed but rather we as humans have a base desire to be loved and fit in. Its not a weakness. Its a survival skill that humans use when they are not "full citizens under the law".

The age comment doesn't fit here- once again your example here of GLBT people not liking "Trannies and drag queens" is something I see 99% of the time in younger gays who do not appreciate their significance in the movement and dont know their history. Sure you can find examples of older people that feel that way - but they are no were near the amount of the younger generation. Regardless of the age of those that feels that way its wrong. Everyone should be free to be who they are.

Im not intending to go off on you on the age comment but it really came off wrong in my reading of your post. Like you being sick of people not liking "Trannies and drag queens" I get sick of hearing the younger generation scape goat older gays for attitudes that did not originate in older GLBT people. Sure older gays have things that can and should be criticized, but in my opinion this is not one of them. Im of an odd age where gay men just 10 years older than me are few and far between, many of them have passed away after working tirelessly for the freedoms, including Pride and Transgendered rights.

When it comes down to it - many of the issues you ranted about are important and frustrating to me. I get pissed off having to defend my transgendered brothers and sisters on progressive sites, in the bars and in the community. We should be supporting their rights 100X better than we are. Just as we should be supporting everyones right to be and act as they want to with in the law - regardless of their orientation. Individuality in all of society should be a priority - and hopefully we will continue to encourage people to question their beliefs both within our community and outside of it.


/rant

[Eryemil]

5. ...

"More on that later - however I do not agree we are full citizens under the law. Not at all. We can not form our relationships under the law. We are not protected at work under the law, at our homes or our choice of faith or no faith among many other areas."

I live in Canada.

"Im 38 and I take huge issue with your assessment of older GLBT people."

I wasn't just calling out older queers so please put down the 5 inch pumps. Read the paragraph again, that bit is mostly unrelated.

I do however take issue with your assessment that it is mostly young people with the fucked up ideas.

It is not my generation of queers (I am a Millennial) that is still mostly married to women and mostly in the closet.

It is thanks to the activists that we can live openly and without fear (this is what I meant in my opening paragraph by the way) and without having to endure what they endured, yes...

...but it isn't my generation that gave this world so many hypocrites like Larry Craig and Ted Haggard and it probably never will.

And I have not ONCE heard a kid my age complain about pride the way certain guys YOUR age do. Whining about how it sets back the gay rights movement.
You're probably familiar with words. Just because my generation might not choose to participate in pride the way the older ones did doesn't mean we don't enjoy it.
I am not sure what pride celebrations you're going to but the ones I've been to are chock-full of young people.

The straight acting thing is certainly more common among young males but the top-anxiety and drag queen whining is also more prevalent among older men.


You seem to conveniently forget that the older gay generations exist beyond the group you've narrowly defined. Have a look at Cragislist yourself, how many of those ads seeking man-sex are from older married guys?


The problems I pointed out can be found in all strata of the gay community, in all ages and subgroups.

[FreeState]

31. ......

I live in Canada.

Sorry I missed that - however you were born when most of the rights you now enjoy were not available. Your whole life as not been raised in an accepting society. I realise Canada has moved along way far ahead of the US but there is still work to do there - just not nearly as much as here.

I wasn't just calling out older queers so please put down the 5 inch pumps. Read the paragraph again, that bit is mostly unrelated.

It is thanks to the activists that we can live openly and without fear (this is what I meant in my opening paragraph by the way) and without having to endure what they endured, yes...

Just a sugestion then - think about what your writing. The first paragraph of any written message sets the tone and the premis and you chose to take a huge jab at older gays in it (or it was interpreted as such by more than just me - intended or not :) ). If thats not your main intent you may want to mention it late after you have set up your premiss. Unfortunaly many on of us, myself included, make mistakes like this that get read differently from others.

I do however take issue with your assessment that it is mostly young people with the fucked up ideas.

I never said that. I replied specifically to your assesments. Infact I even mentioned "older gays have things that can and should be criticized". Every age of people has fucked up ideas and issuers - we are in no shortage of them.

...but it isn't my generation that gave this world so many hypocrites like Larry Craig and Ted Haggard and it probably never will.

Whooo... you really think that? There are constantly gay men of every age in the news for doing just what you listed. Several in the news lately including a ministers son being caught trying to have sex with a cop in public. In San Diego I dont have to look far to find gay men of all ages that are married - even in their early 20s. I dont know if its because of the military here or for some other reason. But I moved here 10 years ago and found the same in my previous state.

The straight acting thing is certainly more common among young males but the top-anxiety and drag queen whining is also more prevalent among older men.

You seem to conveniently forget that the older gay generations exist beyond the group you've narrowly defined. Have a look at Cragislist yourself, how many of those ads seeking man-sex are from older married guys?

The problems I pointed out can be found in all strata of the gay community, in all ages and subgroups.

Once again not in my experiance. Obviously your experiance is be different than mine. But I like you can find examples of everything we have talked about in every age group.

[Political Tiger]

6. You seem to be advocating a "gay lifestyle"

which is something I don't believe in. Being gay is NOT a "lifestyle!"

You state "I cannot understand this eagerness to convince the hetero majority that we're exactly like them."

Guess what - we ARE "exactly like them."

You also state "trying to conform to the ideals of the majority leaves us just as bigoted. Particularly, because we're so eager to prove just how well we fit in."

Well, again, guess what - we do "fit in."

At 46, I guess I'm considered part of that "older queer generation." Even so, I believe I understand what you are saying. I don't believe any gay person should be embarrassed or ashamed of trannies, queens or gay pride parades. Nor should we be embarrassed or ashamed of "straight-acting" queers, because we are what we are. We are a diverse people just like everyone else.

When it comes to things like gay pride parades, I don't blame the participants for any of the negative attention the more flamboyant of our community attracts, I blame the media which focuses in only on the guys with nothing on but a dog collar or a drag queen made up in the most out-there outfit possible....and they use those images to stereotype all gay people as sex crazed maniacs while ignoring all the "normal" people in such an event....you know, the ones "exactly like them" and who do "fit in."

I do sometimes wish some of the participants in events like gay pride events would tone down the sexual aspect a bit as I know damn well homosexuality is not just about sex, but like I said, at the same time I do understand it is the media that plays up that aspect because it's more sensational.

You see, gay people are just a diverse as straight people are, but it's the ones who are the more extravagant of us that get all the attention in the press and on TV, and to that I think we need to pressure the media to show all aspects of the gay community, but again, let me reiterate that I think if you are a queen or a trannie or whatever, be who you are.

Now, if you "choose to be promiscuous" that's your business, but I hope you are not saying that being promiscuous is a gay thing. It is not. Straight people are just as promiscuous as gay people are, probably more, but being promiscuous really isn't something to brag about. It should between you and your partner(s)....because frankly, we aren't going to get the powers that be to give us the same rights as the majority if we allow ourselves to be portrayed as promiscuous.

In the end, I think it's important for younger queers to understand that homosexuality is not just about sex. It's not just about going out to the clubs and screwing every guy (or girl) that gives you a glance.

And the fact that there is apparently a generation gap between old(er) queers and young queers only goes to prove that in fact, "we're exactly like them!"

[Eryemil]

7. Perfect example of the things that piss me off

"Nor should we be embarrassed or ashamed of "straight-acting" queers, because we are what we are."

What the fuck is a straight-acting gay man? They certainly don't like the pussy. This is mostly a minor quibble but I've always wondered why they don't just use masculine instead since it is obviously what they're aiming for. The term is actually doubly-offensive, it's homophobic and sexist. They've not only internalized a stereotype of gay men as feminine but also think that it's somehow BAD for a man to have feminine qualities. THIS is a perfect example of queers picking up all the negative social baggage from the dominant culture.

"I blame the media which focuses in only on the guys with nothing on but a dog collar or a drag queen made up in the most out-there outfit possible....and they use those images to stereotype all gay people as sex crazed maniacs while ignoring all the "normal" people in such an event....you know, the ones "exactly like them" and who do "fit in."

Why must anyone or anything be blamed? Those people walking around with nothing with dog-collars on are doing absolutely NOTHING wrong.
It is not more inherently shameful than marching fully clothed and pushing a stroller.

"I do sometimes wish some of the participants in events like gay pride events would tone down the sexual aspect a bit as I know damn well homosexuality is not just about sex, but like I said, at the same time I do understand it is the media that plays up that aspect because it's more sensational."

"Homosexuality is not just about sex."
Biologically, yes it is mostly. Though we do differ in certain key aspects.
Socially, that's another thing altogether. Is this an admission that there IS something like a gay lifestyle? Generally I call it gay culture but you can call it whatever you want.

You are once again using the silly, arbitrary system of morality that society has implanted in you to judge other queers. The same system of morality used to judge us all in turn.
WHY should the pride parade participants tone down the sexual aspects? You manage to shift the blame to the media very skillfully and I am not saying you resent these people but by your own words you would be happier if they conformed to be more in line with something "Less sensational."

"You see, gay people are just a diverse as straight people are, but it's the ones who are the more extravagant of us that get all the attention in the press and on TV, and to that I think we need to pressure the media to show all aspects of the gay community, but again, let me reiterate that I think if you are a queen or a trannie or whatever, be who you are."

I don't think we need to do such a thing. Has it ever occurred to you that we only attract attention when we do outrageous things because married people with 1.5 kids are boring as fuck?
A hundred years from now the pride parades will still be a big deal, the same way Mardi Gras is a big deal and the carnival of Rio is a big deal. Adam & Steve with their boring accounting jobs and nasty little spawns, no one will care about them like no one cares about the millions of couples just like them.



"Now, if you "choose to be promiscuous" that's your business, but I hope you are not saying that being promiscuous is a gay thing. It is not. Straight people are just as promiscuous as gay people are, probably more, but being promiscuous really isn't something to brag about. It should between you and your partner(s)....because frankly, we aren't going to get the powers that be to give us the same rights as the majority if we allow ourselves to be portrayed as promiscuous."

No, being promiscuous is not a gay thing but gay men in particular are one of the single most promiscuous group around. Straight men would be too if women didn't keep them in check. It's a male thing, not a gay thing. In our case it just happens to manifest more often.

But anyway, why isn't being promiscuous something to brag about? Holy fuck, your entire post is case in point of everything I was ranting about. Why do we need to prostrate ourselves in front of the majority at all to receive the rights we are entitled to as citizens? Either we deserve the rights, as written in law, or we do not.

"In the end, I think it's important for younger queers to understand that homosexuality is not just about sex. It's not just about going out to the clubs and screwing every guy (or girl) that gives you a glance."

So what IS it about? If it is not about sex and it is not a culture/lifestyle/whateverthefuckyouwantotcallit then what is it?

"And the fact that there is apparently a generation gap between old(er) queers and young queers only goes to prove that in fact, "we're exactly like them!"

I don't follow your logic, sorry.

[Political Tiger]

8. OK, if were going to dissect and answer line for line:

What the fuck is a straight-acting gay man? They certainly don't like the pussy. This is mostly a minor quibble but I've always wondered why they don't just use masculine instead since it is obviously what they're aiming for. The term is actually doubly-offensive, it's homophobic and sexist. They've not only internalized a stereotype of gay men as feminine but also think that it's somehow BAD for a man to have feminine qualities. THIS is a perfect example of queers picking up all the negative social baggage from the dominant culture.

You, not I, brought up "straight-acting" queers, which is why I put it in quotes ... I was quoting YOU. Some gay men are "masculine" in their affect, some are "feminine." Some are in the middle. Who cares? There's plenty of room for all of us.

Why must anyone or anything be blamed? Those people walking around with nothing with dog-collars on are doing absolutely NOTHING wrong.
It is not more inherently shameful than marching fully clothed and pushing a stroller.

My point is simple. Such images are used to stereotype gay people. That's just a fact. I made it clear that the media has a bias against gay folk. It'd be no different than if at a NAACP rally the media only showed a picture of the one guy in the crowd eating a piece of fried chicken. I made absolutely no reference whatsoever that "people walking around with nothing dog-collars on" are doing anything wrong. To each their own.

"Homosexuality is not just about sex."
Biologically, yes it is mostly. Though we do differ in certain key aspects.
Socially, that's another thing altogether. Is this an admission that there IS something like a gay lifestyle? Generally I call it gay culture but you can call it whatever you want.

So heterosexuality is "mostly" about sex too? Is there also a straight "culture?" Believe it or not, not every gay person thinks about sex 24/7. Even those of us that do think about sex 24/7, many of us manage to do other things at the same time, like go to school, the movies, eat dinner, brush our teeth, walk the dog, visit the neighbors, raise children, etc.. This may come as a shock to you, but there are even happy, well adjusted long-term gay couples that rarely, if ever, have sex.

And by the way, the term "gay lifestyle" was coined by the right, not by queers. It's meant to degrade and devalue gay people.

You are once again using the silly, arbitrary system of morality that society has implanted in you to judge other queers. The same system of morality used to judge us all in turn.
WHY should the pride parade participants tone down the sexual aspects? You manage to shift the blame to the media very skillfully and I am not saying you resent these people but by your own words you would be happier if they conformed to be more in line with something "Less sensational."

Darling, I'm not judging anyone. I simply stated an opinion. Yes, as I stated, I sometimes wish people would celebrate the PRIDE more than the GAY at gay pride events, but that doesn't mean I'm using some "system of morality used to judge us all." I'm just stating an opinion. But to each their own, including me.

I don't think we need to do such a thing. Has it ever occurred to you that we only attract attention when we do outrageous things because married people with 1.5 kids are boring as fuck?
A hundred years from now the pride parades will still be a big deal, the same way Mardi Gras is a big deal and the carnival of Rio is a big deal. Adam & Steve with their boring accounting jobs and nasty little spawns, no one will care about them like no one cares about the millions of couples just like them.

Believe it or not, some gay people are "boring as fuck" too. Not all of us go to the clubs every night, down a couple of hits of X, dance until last call and then go home with whatever stranger is left for the taking. There was a time in my life when I did do that, but even that gets BORING after a while.

And no, I don't think "a hundred years from now pride parades will still be a big deal." Why? Glad you asked! Because I don't think a hundred years from now we will need gay pride parades.

No, being promiscuous is not a gay thing but gay men in particular are one of the single most promiscuous group around. Straight men would be too if women didn't keep them in check. It's a male thing, not a gay thing. In our case it just happens to manifest more often.

Good! Something we can agree on.

But anyway, why isn't being promiscuous something to brag about? Holy fuck, your entire post is case in point of everything I was ranting about. Why do we need to prostrate ourselves in front of the majority at all to receive the rights we are entitled to as citizens? Either we deserve the rights, as written in law, or we do not.

If being a slut is a badge of honor to you, more power to you. All I was saying is don't assume every gay man and woman out there thinks like you, or should think like you, or is going to give you kudos for being a slut. Personally, I don't give a shit if you drop your pants for every Tom, Dick and Harry you run across, but don't use your "lifestyle/culture" to label the rest of us.

So what IS it about? If it is not about sex and it is not a culture/lifestyle/whateverthefuckyouwantotcallit then what is it?

It's about LOVE. L-O-V-E. That may be too abstract for you to understand now, but hopefully one day you will fall in love and come to understand what I am talking about. who knows....maybe one day you will decide to settle down with one man, in a monogamous relationship, and become one of the "boring" people.

I don't follow your logic, sorry.

My logic is simple. Gay people are just like everyone else. We are not some different breed or species of human being, or aliens from outer space. We are just people. We don't all fit into one neat, little convenient category.

[Eryemil]

11. Straight culture

So heterosexuality is "mostly" about sex too? Is there also a straight "culture?" Believe it or not, not every gay person thinks about sex 24/7. Even those of us that do think about sex 24/7, many of us manage to do other things at the same time, like go to school, the movies, eat dinner, brush our teeth, walk the dog, visit the neighbors, raise children, etc.. This may come as a shock to you, but there are even happy, well adjusted long-term gay couples that rarely, if ever, have sex.

Of course "Heterosexuality" is about sex! What defines whether one is heterosexual or not in the first place?
The sex of the partners we choose to fuck. All those activities you mentioned have no bearing on whether one is homo or hetero.

And yes, I do think there IS a straight culture. It just happens to be universal so we do not realize that it too is a construct.
Just because we are all born into it does not automatically make us a part of it either, if we were we wouldn't have such problems being accepted.
Most societies just do not have a place for us and those that do accept our presence do so because we have managed to convince them to.

You could say the whole of the entire society we live in is straight culture. A culture that until very recently, with minor exceptions, didn't even acknowledge our existence.
If we had the chance to develop relatively isolated in a Pacific island (and managed to have sex each other often enough as to not become extinct) instead of as a tiny fraction of each population and ethnic group what would you call these islanders?
Ok, they might call themselves Talik for all we know but for all intent and purposes they would live in a "gay culture".

You do not need to be completely and utterly different from another group to have a different culture than they do. Look at the Jews, until the birth of Israel they were a small minority in every country they inhabited, just like us. Funny thing is that unlike us, apart from their religious beliefs and the chopped off penis, they looked and behaved more or less like their gentile neighbors. The only thing that set them apart was a few thousand years of their actively setting themselves apart.

So yes, I do believe there is a straight culture and what I would call the beginnings of something like gay culture. Of course we will most likely be well settled into straight society by the end of the century. It is not as if our beliefs are very different from theirs anyway, growing up among them and knowing nothing else. It will certainly be a step up from the current horror and suffering we face.


But it also makes me think of how much of their cultural baggage we've inherited.

Their hateful religions.
Their puritanical, patriarchal beliefs about sexuality which have nothing to do with us. Repressive systems and ideals that began as ways to control female sexuality and ensure reproductive rights for males. The concepts of virginity, modesty and adultery for example. All heavily against women at their inception.

And so on down a very depressing list.

[sui generis]

9. What's at stake is not being gay or being not-gay

it's choice.

Assimilation isn't about accepting us because we have green eyes. It's about accepting that we have a right to choose to do whatever the fuck we want with our own lives, properties, hearts and pink parts.

I agree - we don't need to condition people to accept "gayness". We need to make them understand that we are adults making adult choices in our adult lives and we really don't need anything from anyone else except non-interference, just as they expect from us.

[qb]

10. K&R - I applaud your passion.

I am familiar with the destructive attitudes you refer to. My boyfriend and I went to a block party in my old neighborhood. He had too much to drink and was rather flamboyant. Some of the neighbors were aghast and gossip got back to my ex. Now she doesn't want our kids to have any contact with him. A preppy gay guy in the neighborhood went out of his way to tell my ex that my boyfriend is nothing like any of the gays he knows. It sucks, no matter how old the bigots are.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

12. we may not be "just like them" but we deserve the same rights

Maybe you're too young to have a family and kids. I think you're missing out on the point that part of assimilation is to bring along reluctant heterosexuals to voting in favor of our rights. As a minority population, we do not have the voting power to give us equal rights. Part of assimilating is demystifying how LGBTs families are just like heterosexuals in that we have marriages, divorces, we live together without being married, we have children, we adopt kids, our kids do just as well as heterosexuals in school. The only difference is that both parents are the same sex. Sure, there are differences, but there are differences in christian families and jewish families, wealthy families and lower income ones. Nobody ever said assimilation means one type of family.
Being in a partnership with kids is different than being a younger LGBT person, that doesn't mean anyone wants to take away your individual rights to self expression. There are far more older LGBTs than younger ones and one of these days you will be what you consider "older". Your feelings might change as you mature. They may not. Back in the 60s we said, "don't trust anyone over 30." Guess what, we all turned 30 and most of us changed our minds about that one.

[Eryemil]

14. "assimilation is to bring along reluctant heterosexuals to voting in favor of our rights"

That's the whole point of my post and the reason I wrote this rant in the first place.
I am angry that we've had to mold ourselves into clones of the existing culture in order be allowed into the treehouse, absorbing both the negative and positive along the way.
I am specially angry about the attitudes some of us have chosen to embody in order to fit in.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

17. who are you really angry at?

That's the whole point of my post and the reason I wrote this rant in the first place.
I am angry that we've had to mold ourselves into clones of the existing culture in order be allowed into the treehouse, absorbing both the negative and positive along the way.
I am specially angry about the attitudes some of us have chosen to embody in order to fit in.

I think you need to speak for yourself here. Don't assume your personal needs are those of our entire community. We are not a monolithic group. Lots of us fit into society and haven't had to mold anything. We are who we are. We aren't "settling" by wanting (or not wanting) a spouse and kids. Some people might be, but not everyone. Sometimes we've had to show that to those unfamiliar with LGBTS. Most of the LGBTs I know haven't molded themselves into heterosexual clones. Before we paved the road for your generation, some of us stayed closeted and didn't feel safe to disclose our orientation. Heck, the military still has DADT and in that respect those who choose a military life might try to play straight and it sucks. Culture isn't stagnant, it changes through generations. Women used to be considered property of their husbands. Blacks had to drink from "colored" water fountains. No more. People in general are resistant to change. Sometimes we had to walk, march, sit in, and protest to push society into becoming more progressive.

[Eryemil]

23. The fact that you might choose to believe it does not apply to you...

...hardly means it doesn't.
I happen to think it applies to most of us and it goes well beyond the desire to have a "spouse and kids." In fact, I don't think I've even written about the subject in this context.
I have not seen any concrete evidence otherwise.

It is relatively easy, in some ways, to fit in. Utterly impossible in others. The fact that we grow up saturated in this culture means we adapt certain things easily, like most bits of the prevalent system of morality, certain religious belief, the way we dress, speak and relate to one another.

It is obviously next to impossible for us to marry the opposite sex and live happily ever after. How you can say that we fit in well with most of the world around us is beyond me.
"Lots of us fit into society and haven't had to mold anything" We've had had to mold society around us while also molding ourselves around it, haven't we?

What about the other part of my rant, where I complained about all the stupid attitudes I see in gay men around me.
Most of them a byproduct of our desire to fit in and the garbage we absorb from society. This includes all the guys with hangups about being called 'bottoms', (Which I think is utterly ridiculous) sexist macho attitude that would most likely not have developed if we had no inherited the sexism from straight culture. Same for the whole 'straight acting' garbage.


But this is after all, an angry rant. From my point of view.
I expected that people would disagree and was looking forward to the debate.
You've not let me down.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

19. it's not assimilation if that's what folks want, it's educating society

[beyurslf]

13. I am so glad that the battles we fought for your rights before you were born have enabled you

to now criticize those who fought those battles. We "older" queers went through trials you will never experience. For that, I am thankful. I am thankful that you were able to come out at an age when I would not even have known what "queer" was. I am thankful you have not had to experience the hate from your own family that so many of my friends had to experience. I am thankful that you know you are a recognized part of society and protected under the laws of your country.

I guess I am one of those boring old gay guys. I don't go to clubs. I don't do drugs. I don't drink or smoke. I haven't had sex in ages. But, I am happy. I am single. I have 4 wonderful boys. I am raising my family. I suppose some could say I live a "straight" life but I like to think that I am just living MY life.

I don't give a damn if some guy wants to wear a dress. You can sleep with as many guys as you want and it will never affect me. I haven't been to a pride event in years and have no plans to start going again now. Feel free to wear whatever you like to the parade though. You say we should not criticize you for your choices; please don't criticize us for ours. In some ways, we have been there and learned from experience. Promiscuity is fun for a time. Lose a few friends because of their promiscuity and ignorance and you sometimes have a different perspective. I suppose I am thankful that you have grown up in a world where AIDS has always been known and you understand how to protect yourself. Chances are, you have not lost anyone yet and I hope you never do. Be thankful for that.

You say that it is only the outrageous who get noticed and remembered. You say that 100 years from now no one will remember Adam and Steve and all the "boring" guys like them. After you have lived awhile, you might reconsider what is "memorable." In 100 years when we are all dead, I don't think any one will remember my drag queen friend who flamed out and died at 23 from too many drugs and booze mixed together in a weekend-long party. In 100 years, I imagine no one will know who the party animals were and who slept with the most guys. In 100 years, no one will care who had a different trick every night. In 100 years, those who do nothing but live for their own enjoyment, won't have anyone singing their praises.

But I know who will remember me in 100 years. My children. My (as of yet unborn) grandchildren. Their children. The young adults who I work with today. The people's whose lives (not bodies), I touch. Your legacy is not determined by the people who sleep with or how tall your heels are. Your legacy is those you leave behind and the lessons in life you passed on to them.

I don't want to say you are wrong. I don't want to condemn you for the things you believe. I was young once. I am hopeful that as you age you will reconsider. In the end, I know who I am. I am happy. I am boring. It is good.

[Eryemil]

15. Very well written, emotional response but it has nothing to do with what I wrote

From everything I have written so far in this thread you have arrived at all the wrong conclusions.

Take a look at the following for example:

"Has it ever occurred to you that we only attract attention when we do outrageous things because married people with 1.5 kids are boring as fuck?
A hundred years from now the pride parades will still be a big deal, the same way Mardi Gras is a big deal and the carnival of Rio is a big deal. Adam & Steve with their boring accounting jobs and nasty little spawns, no one will care about them like no one cares about the millions of couples just like them."

How you got:

"You say that it is only the outrageous who get noticed and remembered. You say that 100 years from now no one will remember Adam and Steve and all the "boring" guys like them. After you have lived awhile, you might reconsider what is "memorable." In 100 years when we are all dead, I don't think any one will remember my drag queen friend who flamed out and died at 23 from too many drugs and booze mixed together in a weekend-long party. In 100 years, I imagine no one will know who the party animals were and who slept with the most guys. In 100 years, no one will care who had a different trick every night. In 100 years, those who do nothing but live for their own enjoyment, won't have anyone singing their praises."

From that I'll never know.

Read the quote again in the context of the reply. I was basically telling that person that the reason the media does not care about "normal" gay folks is that "normal" gay folk are just like everyone else and that is not interesting to the masses.

[beyurslf]

16. I don't believe I took anything out of context.

I extrapolated your thoughts to their logical conclusion and re-worded your statements into my voice. I guess the "do not plagiarize" days of lore still haunt me.

"We only attract attention and do outrageous things..." is "the outrageous get noticed and remembered."

When you say: "Adam & Steve with their boring accounting jobs and nasty little spawns, no one will care about them" I believe you are misguided as I pointed out.

While the drag queens with hair up to heaven and heels that few would dare try to walk in do get on the news and on the covers of the all the gay rags, these are not things most people remember throughout their lives. The media obsesses about Paris Hilton and some woman who made 8 babies. Who cares what they obsess about? Would we really let them decide what is important in our lives? Did you really care that Brittany cut her hair? The media did.
These are the things that are important: I remember my grandparents. I remember an elementary school teacher who stood her ground in the face of unspeakable racism. I remember a high school teacher who taught us that being yourself was better than faking it as someone else. I remember a preacher who instructed us to change the things we can when we see wrong and work even harder to change the things we can't. I remember one true love who touched me and changed my life. These people have legacies in my life. These people live on. Sure I remember fun days at some clubs and many, many friends some who have gone and some I may never see again. But in several decades when I enter the waning years of my life, who will I remember? Who will I say influenced my life? Who will I want to pass on?

(Btw, I hope we do have pride parades 100 years from now. I think celebrating who we are is a great event. Everyone should experience a pride parade in a urban "pride-friendly" city like NYC, San Fran, Toronto.)

[Eryemil]

18. Yes, but you didn't take in the context of it being a reply to:

"You see, gay people are just a diverse as straight people are, but it's the ones who are the more extravagant of us that get all the attention in the press and on TV, and to that I think we need to pressure the media to show all aspects of the gay community, but again, let me reiterate that I think if you are a queen or a trannie or whatever, be who you are."

I was just explaining, and I repeat, why the media chooses to focus on pride parades. It had absolutely nothing to do with my personal feelings on the matter.
Was it the language I chose to use that bothered you so? It seems like it.


"Adam & Steve with their boring accounting jobs and nasty little spawns, no one will care about them"

Basically saying that 100 years from now, the media will still be focusing on events like pride parades and their equivalents and every day people will still be ignored.

I didn't think my writing was that hard to decipher but I am beginning to have my doubts.

[beyurslf]

20. Maybe it is the language.

I suppose I take it personally when someone talks of those with "nasty little spawns" since I have 4of them myself .
I work with those "nasty little spawns" everyday too. They sit in foster care and wait to be adopted. Or, more likely, they wait until they are the age of majority and released on their own to make it. The queer kids have an even harder time. Who wants to adopt a teenager, let alone a queer teen.
One of my boys is gay. The other 3 are straight although one hints around at being bi. It makes me no difference of course.

While unsaid, your posts sound eerily familiar in their tone. The idea that as a gay man I should strive to live some "gay life." That my choice to be celibate and have children is somehow "selling out" to the hetero world. Because more of my friends are straight than gay or because the last time I went to a gay bar, I decided I would have more fun at a straight bar and left. Your posts insinuate that my "nasty little spawns," that my choice not to be a part of the gay community at large, that my lifestyle or age somehow makes me less supportive of the community or of your rights is absurd and foolish. It is us, the generations before yours, that gave you those rights. Appreciate them.

We may disagree about how to live our lives, but we should agree that we have the right to make whatever choices we want without denegrating those choices. Some of it is semantics of course. Some of it is generational. I am sure a day will come that I will look at the young people around me and realize you all really got it right where we messed up. And sometime, just every once in awhile, you may look back and realize us old geezers weren't quite as crazy as you thought.

[Eryemil]

21. Well take it with a grain of salt then. I dislike children.

But I'm only 19yo. That might or might not change as I get older but I can only write from my current point of view.
Lots of people so far seemed to have taken something I've written here as a personal insult. Two guys above with the whole "older generation" thing, you with the bit about boring people and evil kids.

I'll have to keep in mind to use a milder tone when I post an angry rant in the future.
:evilgrin:

[beyurslf]

22. Good idea. :)

Sometimes those who blazed a path before you were born don't take kindly when you seem to reap the rewards and forget who fought and died along the way.

Not to scare you, but when I was 19, I hated kids, never wanted to get married, went to clubs 6 nights a week, and was "promiscuous." (In fact, I recall several weekends at clubs where friends and I competed to see who could get laid first. Good times, for a time.) Now of course, of those 4 things, only one is true. I'm single. I plan to remain so, but you never know how you life will change.

Please be safe. :)
M.

[Eryemil]

24. I could probably better take your words to heart

without the condescension.

I am sorry if my personal opinion offends you.
I can state it in polite tones but the message will probably not change.

You've chosen to take offense were no offense was meant and I recognize that my some of my words might have been a bit too harsh but it is not my fault if you choose to interpret what I've written as to maximize your outrage.


My post had nothing to do with responsibility, whether one should choose to have children, whether one should choose to settle down with a spouse, whether one might lead a self-destructive lifestyle. It had very little to do with the older queers, apart from that mention in the first paragraph.

I like to go out dancing during the weekends and yes, I have lots of (safe) sex with many different men.
But I am also a molecular genetics major. I only drink wine during meals and do not smoke or do other drugs.
I will probably someday settle down with a special man, maybe two special men, most likely one though since I don't like to share. We might or might not choose to have kids.
I have a cat.

How's that for sharing personal information irrelevant to the discussion?

[foxfeet]

26. I've certainly enjoyed your OP and subsequent elaborations.

I actually find many things I can agree with in your posts and I'm almost 40 years older than you. The assimilation issue has been around for a long time and probably will continue to be a point of discussion. It is intimately involved in the whole notion of "identity" and how one is similar to or different from other people. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject in ten or twenty years. Let me hasten to add I don't mean that condescendingly; it's not as if I have all the answers. I mean it more in the context of change as the only constant in the universe and I'd be curious to see how you (and I) change our thinking as time marches on.

[Eryemil]

36. Thanks!

It's not exactly a subject many people care about or agree with.
But I feel strongly about it.

The way I see the issue will probably change but I think I'll always be a little "radical".
These subjects I've tried to discuss (except for the promiscuity) are all more or less hypothetical for me so it's not like I have a vested interest.
I could still end up married with a bunch of kids but my ideals would not have changed.

[roguevalley]

29. I remember stonewall and the hell that was. I remember selma

and all the hell that was. each generation stands taller on the shoulders of their elders. It should never be forgotten. I am glad for the OP that he lives in Canada and has a better life all around than other places. I don't care about drag queens and trannies and the rest. People have to be who they are but if it makes others misunderstand their drives and ideas and lifestyles for the group they are a part of makes it harder for everyone else, you can't dismiss that either. How many people see fat sheriffs and immediately think redneck? how many other stereotypes based on nothing more than appearance do we all carry? If people draw low opinions of people cavorting in assless chaps and all the other fun stuff people do in parades, that is the way it goes. perhaps some day it will be different but unfortunately that is the way it is.

[femrap]

28. Don't care for your

ageist opening of the post. You'll be old someday (maybe)...being young doesn't mean you know everything. Opinion is not fact.

All of my 'Old' gays died in the first wave of AIDS in San Francisco and with them died so much political radicalism and unity with other groups fighting the 'rich white boy.' One of my dead friends felt strongly that the gov't started this virus to eliminate their radical political enemies.

Now, it's all 'divide and conquer.'

I'm with you as far as 'marriage' is concerned....it's a evil institution of the State.

[Eryemil]

38. My post wasn't targeted at the old queers, though apparently it reads like it

Sorry. Lots of people have taken an issue with it. I can't edit it now.

[femrap]

44. I sure miss my old queer friends....

an entire generation lost (at least those in the major cities such as SF, NY, LA).

This new generation....so conservative. So not fun.

But I guess that describes EVERYONE these days.

Thanks for the apology.

Take care.

[mitchtv]

30. Thanks for the angry post

I am still angry , and I am one of the oldest posters around, tho not THE oldest by far. You have much to say , I. too am not interested in assimilation, and I misss the days when we Our slang was almost a different language, at least a different dialect. Those outrageous ones were my friends. They are mostly gone now, but live on in my journal and the works of art they left behind for example "Journey to the Center of Uranus" on stage. I attended the early pride parades and even thir predecessor the Gay in in GGPark that was surrounded by cops and the Drags were carted off in the paddy wagon to cheers from the Very gay crowd. "Queer" wasn't used by Gays very much then , it was a term of derision. I was there when Gay Liberation Front was formed and we took over Rolling Stone Magazine and had a police confrontation in front of the SF Examiner. Most of the particpanta are gone now and I am angry because they haven't been replaced as haven't the Aids activists from Act Up. I too am not fond of kids so I didn't get any. I am damned tired of going to meetings to achieve equal rights, cause I shouldn't have too. 40 years is enough. You are luck you live in a civilized nation (except for the dreadful weather)I still go to pride parades and Our Gay culture is intact It is a holiday for us with brunches and dinners to celibrate our defference Us older ones are not try to assimilate for shit , at least not the ones I deal with. And we just won a battle with the local commerce oriented Pride Committee to get the Dykes on Bikes back into the parade , as they had been . I say with pride it was done by the oldsters. Keep it up, radicalism is a process.

[Eryemil]

37. Fuck yeah! Best reply in the whole thread

I honestly didn't expect to see something like this.

It's one of the problems with people my age, not just queer kids, that we take so much for granted.
Of course, the fact that queers my age have it so easy makes it difficult for an already apathetic group to get angry about anything.

So yes, we need more angry young people.

Rawr.
:evilgrin:

[BoneDaddy]

32. So don't...big fucking deal

but also don't expect the world to be the way you want it to be. Be who you are and if people do not like you...fuck em. But also don't expect people to change for you. Two way street...the way life is. We all have to deal with this reality at some time.

Acceptance from outside sources is preferable but not necessary. We would all like a world where the outside accepted who you were by parents, friends, community, society. The real work is self acceptance, that is the hard part.

[bluedawg12]

33. We are not exactly like them. And here's your prize, a macho...

Ooops....prizes may vary in appearance. :rofl:

Keep up the enthusiasm and never fit in...unless you want to. :hi:

[NMMNG]

34. Whatever

Amusing how you expend all that effort whining about "homos" who persecute you for what you are, while you're doing exactly the same to them.

[Eryemil]

35. Say what? My posts have nothing to do with my own personal choices

So stuff the cat where the sun don't shine.

[NMMNG]

39. Again, whatever.

Come back when you've grown up a bit and want to have an actual dialogue instead of tantruming and shitting on anybody who doesn't agree with you.

[Eryemil]

40. Get done.

[NMMNG]

41. I take it you always have to have the last word?

:eyes:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. i think you are generalizing too much. there are some gays who are embarrassed about those

who are flamboyant, transgendered individuals and bisexuals however for the largest part gays are very accepting as a group.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

43. Bingo-- perhaps he's projecting his own issues onto others

[Fearless]

45. Whoa there Charlie... Whooooa!

(Note: Please read everything and understand what I'm saying before flaming me. If I am to be flamed, I'd rather it be for a legitimate reason. :+)


No one is asking you not to be yourself. No one is asking you to assimilate into heterosexual society. Let's see... on pride events... The argument made is that basically naked people walking down the street is detrimental to us as a serious movement. I'm not going to agree or disagree. I'm just saying what the argument is. TV cameras for certain groups who are looking to disservice us pick up those particular instances while ignoring the real reasons why we do these things. They use the nudity to call us immoral or sinful and usually relate back to children somehow. The argument isn't that we should conform to heterosexual society, but that certain public displays are inappropriate regardless of if they participant is straight or gay (and so on). I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, I'm just saying.

Your argument is seemingly to screw the naysayers, we'll do what we want. This is fine too, but you'll have to live with the consequences either good or bad. Unfortunately, we're not as popular as you might think. You said yourself that you grew up without the "hang ups that still plague the older queer generation". But, you've clearly also grown up without understanding that a majority of people worldwide still are not comfortable with us, specifically when we get together. You misdiagnose "hang ups". They aren't hung up about their own queerness. If that is what you mean, how dare you assume to understand anything about people who lived through things that you've admitted not to have lived through yourself. What they have is caution and realism. Maybe in your life, these displays aren't seen negatively, and I laud your community for that. But the vast, vast majority of GLBTQers today live in communities that shun them for who they are just simply for who they are without needing to add any fuel to the fire of their hate. Over the top presentations and demonstrations (I speak now of excessive nudity in public events) add that fuel to the fire of their hate. Those who already dislike us are justified in their hate (unjustifiably so) simply by seeing some of our displays.

If what you want is to live in a society along with our heterosexual brothers and sisters, then you have to understand that we need to meet with them on their level to convince them that they are wrong as they will never (because they think we're wrong) meet with us on our level. No one who hates us is going to go out of their way to see us as reasonable people, just because they want to. We have to show them that we are reasonable people if we want to gain their acceptance. Unfortunately, that puts the bulk of the work on our backs, but if we want change, that is the fight we must undertake.

If you want to live secluded from heterosexual society at large, then by all means, make no attempts to garner their respect, make no attempts to prove the arguments about our sinfulness and promiscuity wrong, make no attempt at showing them that we are just people who deserve dignity as any other person. If you want to be shunned then ignore the problem (ignore their hate).

But if you, as I do and many others do, want to live in a society where we are free to walk down the street hand in hand with the partner of our choice regardless of their sex or gender, without fear of reprisal or dirty looks, then help us earn their respect. Help us defeat the stereotypes that plague us and don't reinforce them, erroneously, in the minds of our anti-egalitarian detractors.


Peace,
NTF

:kick:



PS. In regards to drag... Western society is governed still today by the beliefs of Victorian society. Gender roles still exist and are still powerful. To come across as reasonable to those who dislike or hate us, we have to take things one step at a time. First, there is nothing wrong with drag. Period. Second, when we step out into society we are subject to the rules of society, whether we like it or not. The rule isn't that drag is bad, but that drag will garner a particular reaction. It does garner a particular reaction on the basis of men dressing up as women particularly. That reaction is when coupled to their hatred of us as non-heterosexuals (I am omitting straight people who like drag for this argument, sorry) their abhorrence of non-traditional gender roles makes it more difficult for them to see us as regular people (because we are just people). They have a less likely chance of respecting us and drag pushing GLBTQ society further away in their minds by bolstering those negative stereotypes they hold of which I've spoken previously. We as a group must separate drag from non-heterosexuality to negate those negative effects that drag has on the GLBTQ movement vis-à-vis their opinions of us. IF this is possible, then we can have our cake and eat it too, by which I mean that we can have GLBTQ/heterosexual equality and drag at the same time without the slowing down of our movement towards equality. Otherwise, if we cannot un-stereotype GLBTQers with drag then the negative stereotypes that our detractors believe to be truth will hold back our movement more so than we would be held back without public displays of drag. Simply, it's a trade off. If you want equality and public displays of drag (and my previous point about public nudity) you will likely have to wait longer for that equality than without said PUBLIC displays.

[mitchtv]

46. you're hard to disagree with, but I guess i will be prepared

to wait I think that if you count drag alone it's one thing , but I am not prepared to leave the transgendered behind and sometimes there's a very thin line between the two.

[bluedawg12]

47. mitchtv- what was the reason that dykes on bikes were banned?

Who wanted to keep them from partcipating and why? You mentioned this before and now that I think of it, I don't know what happened or why.

Could you please elaborate?

And thanks for fighting to get them back in. :hi:

[mitchtv]

48. this is what I reported back when I remembered

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x19470

[bluedawg12]

49. Thank you mitchtv! So cool to see a GLBT forum post from 2005, too!

I note we still had the same member then: "name removed" too. :eyes:

[Fearless]

50. Very true. Very true. A difficult situation to be sure.

I agree. They can not be left behind.


Edit: I'd also beg to say that we must insist in our fight that this is not something that is up for debate. Trans people are not "pretending" or anything like that. (Obviously.) We must continuously assert that view. It is not a bargaining chip.

[bluedawg12]

51. Exactly. Justice means for all not just people that the right wing approves of.

They want to distract us by attacking "gay culture" as if that was some monolithic thing. It would be like GLBTQ and allies demanding that their rights be revoked because we disapprove of Spring break in Daytona and all of those rampant heterosexuals youngsters drinking and half nekkid in their bathing suits. :evilgrin:

Or gee, no more straight marriage, based on the Vitters and other repug hypocrites.



Human rights are human and supercede the rightwings disapproval of something or other, as if the world were otherwise perfect, except for us in it. :eyes:

We stand united - screw 'em!

[Fearless]

52. Well we do stand united...

Yet I'd rather not have to continue to fight them forever. I see two options, either win them over (obviously not meaning turn them GLBTQ) or kill them. I'll opt for the prior. :+