Who should GLBT people support for the Dem Party nomination?

[Brian_Expat]

The next election is going to be a crucial one for the GLBT community, going up against the religious right.

Considering the anti-gay leanings of Hillary Clinton, John Kerry and other "DINO" candidates, we have to be especially careful to work to get a Democratic nominee who respects the rights of gays and lesbians.

I was a Dean guy last time but Howard's doing a good job as party chair and shouldn't be considering a presidential run. I liked Wes Clark last race (even if I thought his campaign folks were a bit loopy) and would probably support a run from him.

One thing is for certain, it's critical that GLBT Democrats ensure that anti-gay panderers like John Kerry or Hillary Clinton don't get the top spot -- we've been sold out often enough by the DINOs.

[TaleWgnDg]

1. Are you assuming that a pro-same-sex marriage candidate is electable? n/t

[Brian_Expat]

2. Yes, I am.

Same sex marriage is NOT a key issue for most people. In most polls it comes in dead last as an issue of importance for most Americans. If a Democrat campaigns competently on this issue, he or she is more than capable of winning.

I also don't think the morally, ethically and CONSTITUTIONALLY appropriate position is a "loser."

And I won't vote for an anti-gay Democrat. I've had it with them.

[TaleWgnDg]

8. I wet my thumb and stuck it out the window, merely to see . . .

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I wet my thumb and stuck it out the window, merely to see . . . which way the wind was blowing. As soon as I feel the wind, I'll report back.

Other than that, my kneejerk *feeling* is that no candidate who professes to stand for same-sex marriage is electable as president. Which is why John Kerry was all over the board about it, or so it sounded. Actually, Kerry has an excellent voting record in the Senate for gay rights. For example, see http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?sig_id=003418M





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[LondonAmerican]

10. No way

would i vote for an anti-gay democrat -- or one who's willing to pander to bigots to get votes. i backed kerry in the last election even though he had a despicable and two-faced approach to gay rights because i couldn't stand the thought of bush. but bush won't be running in 2008 and the democrats need to figure out that the ABB approach won't work (not that it did in 2004 either).

democrats need to start delivering on issues of importance to gay americans (marriage, immigration rights, HIV immigration reform, etc.) if they want to get our votes.

[karynnj]

13. It is not a key issue with most people,

but it is a huge issue with a significantly large group of people. There has been enormous change in the political and social status of gays over the last 50 years. 50 years ago, homosexuality was pretty much in the closet - and not talked about. Even in England, where you are (from your profile), it was illegal.

For many people, this change is frightening - especially when they hear 4th graders casually saying about classmates, " He's gay." Popular TV shows have positive, likable gay characters.

I think that gay marriage will happen - but not for a few decades. Look at any poll split by age on gay rights, civil unions, and gay marriage. The differences are substantially greater split by age than by any thing else - including region and political affiliation. Some times politics means accepting what is possible - when the most desirable is out of reach. Civil unions (with Rights) on a national level would be a huge thing.

[Brian_Expat]

16. Those people who oppose it will ALWAYS oppose it and us

We should stop knuckling under to them and accepting their arguments that we're not worthy of our rights as Americans. I'm tired of paying taxes and doing everything expected of me as a citizen of the USA and getting very little in return. I shouldn't have to do it and neither should anyone else.

Those who are Americans should be entitled to all the rights of being American, including equality under the law, regardless of what a bunch of neocon freaks think.

[phillysuse]

3. Who should GLBT endorse? Who did the Advocate endorse in 2004?

Wesley Clark.

[shirlden]

4. GLBT community can not become

"one issue" voters. I am 70 yrs old; been OUT for 52 yrs; been a political junkie for 60 yrs. We need to keep faith with our supporters in the Dem party. We have not gotten this far past Stonewall by going it alone.
The GLBT folks may be a community on many issues, but when it comes to voting and support for candidates, we need to go with the best guy or gal for the job. Even Clinton rejected us when the push turned into shove. All politicians will, as long as we are a minority. The battle against the RW radical fundies is not ours alone.
We have come a long way in my 50 years of gay history and I will be damned if I am going to go back into isolation by becoming a closed community. When we become a "one issue" group, we may as well just slam the closet door on ourselves.


:think:

[Brian_Expat]

6. I am not single issue but I won't vote for a bigot

If a Democrat opposed interracial marriage, I wouldn't support him or her.

If a Democrat opposed a woman's right to reproductive freedom, I wouldn't support him or her.

If a Democrat opposed religious freedom, I wouldn't support him or her.

And if a Democrat opposes equality under the law for gays and lesbians, I won't support him or her either.

[Boomer]

15. That's my approach as well

Any serious Democratic candidate who supports the broad concepts of a progressive platform and is willing to stand on principle earns my support. Because that principled stand must, by definition, protect my particular interests as well.

Any candidate who does not stand on principle is of no use to me, regardless of what their attitude toward homosexuality may be.

Kos (from the Daily Kos) has a VERY good discussion of how the core principles of a Democratic platform serve all special interests groups without specifically catering to them.

[Boomer]

5. What's the scoop with Hillary?

I don't consider Kerry an "anti-gay" candidate per se, just a wishy-washy candidate who won't stand up for politically controversial issues based on principle. That overarching concept is what disqualifies him in my mind.

The same principle (or, more accurately, LACK of principle) applies to Hillary. I've seen her pander to the pro-Iraq and Israel-at-any-cost camps too often to trust her. But I've missed any of her stands on gay related issues. What's she done to warrant an "anti-gay" label?

[Brian_Expat]

7. She's going on about how "religious" she is

And also reiterates her support for DOMA and other similar legislation and how she and Bill "will defend marriage at all costs."

She's welcome to do so -- without my vote.

[TaleWgnDg]

11. Here's what votesmart.org says about Hillary and gay rights . . .

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Here's what votesmart.org says about Hillary and gay rights:

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?sig_id=003418M
(scroll down to NY Senate, Hillary Rodham Clinton; Kerry of MA has a better rating than does Hillary)

.

[karynnj]

9. Kerry is not anti-gay and I don't think Hillary is either

Kerry has a record of speaking out on gay rights since the 1980s, when very few others did. When Bill Clinton promised that gays could serve in the military - Kerry was willing to be sworn in to testify in favor of gays serving openly - which he preferred to the Clinton compromise of Don't ask Don't tell. On gay issues, he has a 100 rating.

He is for civil unions WITH all the rights of marriage. The only thing he disagrees on is gay marriage. His position on this is the same as Howard Dean's. I don't think a Democrat can win if they overtly back gay marriage.

There are many reasons you state for not picking Kerry again - you don't like him, he can't win, he's too tall, you don't like his votes on ( ), or you prefer ( ). All things like this are either valid subjective opinion or factual. Posting hurtful untrue accusations is unfair.

[TaleWgnDg]

12. Exactly. Kerry's senate voting record is excellent on gay issues.

What Kerry's stance is on same-sex marriage are words to make him electable in America.

Kerry is "personally opposed to same-sex marriage;" however, would not sign into law anything that would stop same-sex marriage. And, there's only one that would stand in the way of same-sex marriage and that's a constitutional amendment to our federal constitution.

Kerry says he is for "civil unions" and would want to leave it up to the states to decide. That's lawyer-speak for hell, no, let the U.S. Supreme Court uphold the U.S. constitution as it should; that is, not to discriminate against same-sex marriage. DoMA and all those state constitutional anti-gay amendments will be over-turned by the U.S. Supreme Court; that is, if the balance in the Court remains in the sane column.

The bottom line for all that Kerry has stated about where he is on "gay marriage" will lead to same-sex marriage in law, period.

________________________________________________________

edited to add: Scalia predicted (warned) of the legalization of same-sex marriage when he stated that "(the majority's) reasoning leaves on pretty shaky grounds state laws limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples." Justice Scalia's heated and vitriolic dissent against over-turning state sodomy laws in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003)
http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZD.html

.

[karynnj]

14. Thanks for posting this

Although I had read many of Kerry's comments - this explains better than anything I read or hear. (Also, it is a nice parallel with his abortion stance.)

[TaleWgnDg]

18. Yeah, it's really too bad that this kind of election-speak is . . .

necessary in order to be elected in America today. Let's all hope and work toward the day when the religion-into-law rightwingnuts will be trounced out of power. Let sanity shine through.



.

[Brian_Expat]

19. Kerry is an outspoken opponent of gay marriage just like George W. Bush.

That's the truth. Even he and Bush support anti-gay amendments, it's just that Kerry's "nuance" supports them on a local level and Bush on a national level.

Kerry even spoke out against gay marriage in Massachusetts recently -- where a majority of Massachusetts citizens and Democrats support it.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

30. Please don't insult our intelligence.

We all saw how well pandering to homophobia worked for Kerry last November.

[Brian_Expat]

17. Kerry and both Clintons are anti-gay

Kerry spoke out against gay marriage in Massachusetts.

Kerry supports "separate and unequal" and constitutional amendments to state constitutions that ban gay marriage.

Hillary is even worse.

[TaleWgnDg]

20. Please see my post #12 re Kerry and gay rights including marriage n/t

[Brian_Expat]

24. I read your post and I disagree with it

Kerry's outspoken opposition to gay marriage and support for anti-gay constitutional amendments speaks for itself. No tortured rationales are needed. Gay people shouldn't be fooled by his cowardly efforts to pander to bigotry on this issue.

[GodlessBiker]

21. I think Hillary supported her husband's signing of DOMA.

[TaleWgnDg]

22. In light of Lawrence v. Texas and other SCOTUS cases, DoMA

In light of Lawrence v. Texas and other SCOTUS case law, DoMA will be tossed out as will all the state constitutional anti-gay amendments. Bill Clinton was a constitutional law professor; he knew this too, as did Hillary.

.

[Brian_Expat]

23. It doesn't matter -- what matters is that Hillary's a bigot

And unfit to be president.

That Supreme Court rulings will overturn her bad law later makes no difference. You could equally argue that we should elect George W. Bush because even though he's anti-gay, the USSC will overturn his bad law too.

[TaleWgnDg]

25. "Bigot" and "unfit" are very strong negative words which are

.
"Bigot" and "unfit" are very strong negative words which are unnecessary and unfounded when used to describe Hillary Rodham Clinton.

And, it could not be substantiated that if GWBush voted in a "bad law" that could be over-turned upon a legal challenge does it then equate him as electable. Why is that so? Because George Walker Bush oozes homophobia and scapegoated anti-gay deflection. He rallied anti-gayism merely to get into the Oval Office.

Hillary has not done so. Nor did Bill.

.

[LondonAmerican]

26. at the end of the day

it's what they do, not what their innernmost private thoughts are, that matters.

when kerry comes out in favor of an amendment banning gay marriage, and clinton signs DoMA and institutes "don't ask don't tell" crap in the military it's JUST AS BAD as when some moron like bush tries to rally his base by fagbashing. the only difference is that kerry and clinton sell us out through their cowardice while bush attacks us from a position of strength. the end result is the same though.

i'm not supporting any cowards who won't support me. screw that.

[TaleWgnDg]

27. waitaminute . . .

1.) Kerry's senate voting record is excellent on gay issues. U.S. Senator John F. Kerry voted AGAINST DoMA. See, for example, http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?sig_id=003418M

2.) What Kerry's stance is on same-sex marriage are words to make him electable in America:

Kerry is "personally opposed to same-sex marriage;" however, would not sign into law anything that would stop same-sex marriage. And, there's only one that would stand in the way of same-sex marriage and that's an anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment to our federal constitution.

Kerry says he is for "civil unions" and would want to leave it up to the states to decide. That's lawyer-speak for hell, no, let the U.S. Supreme Court uphold the U.S. constitution as it should; that is, not to discriminate against same-sex marriage. DoMA and all those state constitutional anti-gay amendments will be over-turned by the U.S. Supreme Court; that is, if the balance in the Court remains in the sane column. (Besides, a president has no control over what the States do or do not do as to same-sex marriage or other gay issues)

The bottom line for all that Kerry has stated about where he is on "gay marriage" will lead to same-sex marriage in law, period. And, he knows this, too. He's a lawyer and a damn good one, too. He went to law school after he served in 'Nam. He practiced law both in the private sector and the public sector as Assistant District Attorney for Middlesex County, Massachusetts.

BTW, Associate Justice Antonin Scalia predicted (warned) of the legalization of same-sex marriage when he stated that "(the majority's) reasoning leaves on pretty shaky grounds state laws limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples." Justice Scalia's heated and vitriolic dissent against over-turning state sodomy laws in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003)
http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZD.html

.

[Brian_Expat]

35. This is why John Kerry and other Democrats lose elections. . .

. . . because of tortured phoney "please everyone" rationales like the quote above.

Democrats should stand up, clearly and simply, and say "I support equal rights under the law for all Americans. Period. No segregation, no separate but equal, no wink-wink stealth strategy."

If they're unwilling to do that, they're unfit to serve or to carry the party banner.

[LondonAmerican]

40. Indeed

i get really tired of people telling us that we should just accept this embarassment on the part of a lot of democrat politicians. let them please take a stand and stick to it.

would kerry say that he is 'personally opposed' to mixed-race marriages and then come out with some kind of crap compromise to keep people happy? no, he wouldn't.it's only queers that are supposed to take that kind of offensive crap these days.

if the democrats can't do better than that and if they don't stop being embarassed about gays then they won't get my vote. screw that. i'd rather vote for a socialist, green or libertarian.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

28. Amen.

eom

[Brian_Expat]

34. Exactly!

Bravo.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

29. Exactly. And also signing DOMA-type laws fuels gaybashing.

So it's not as though if it's only for for the sake of electability, it's harmless, which is exactly what TaleWgnDog is implying.

[TaleWgnDg]

31. Tis no wonder the . . .

.
Tis no wonder the argumentative merely for the sake of arguing 2-second sound bites of Faux News and . . . other like so-called "news" disinformation grabs and holds America today. That and if it's repeated often enough, regardless whether a lie, it becomes *miraculously* a "truth!"

I pass. If no one wants to read, assimilate and analyze my posts, I am out of here. Oh, is that my phone ringing? Uh-huh.

.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

32. Please don't insult our intelligence.

You are wrong, and no amount of - as someone else put it - tortured, complicated, incomprehensible rationalizing makes you right.

Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation is probably the correct one.

[kweerwolf]

33. I'm not that thrilled with any of the Dems so far.

I agree that I could never support Hillary with the way she's been pandering to the right wing. Remember when she joined with Kansas' crypto-fascist Sam Brownshirt ... oops! I mean "Brownback" ... to denounce violent video games? Geez! She makes Bill looks like an also-ran in the Political Opportunism Olympics.

I reluctantly supported Kerry in the last election even though he went all out to prove the "flip-flop" sobriquet. I couldn't support him again.

Frankly, my own personal test for the Democratic presidential nomination includes pro-gay, pro-choice and pro-labor issues. Any candidate falling short of those won't get my support.

Call me a single issue voter if you want, but if the Democratic Party expects me to sit at the back of the bus they've lost my support. My rights are NOT negotiable.

[thrift_store_angel]

37. You nailed it Kweer....

"Single issue voter" is tossed around like it is a bad thing, but when that "single issue" is my right to be treated like a human being then I will continue to vote based on that issue. Equality is NOT a marginal issue!

I am not saying that we haven't made progress and I don't expect things to happen overnight but I am certainly not going to vote for someone who will delay that progressive or even worse push it back. Yes, sometimes we will have to make concessions for the "greater good" of the gay rights movement but our selection of a presidential candidate is not the place to make those concessions.

[Brian_Expat]

38. I *heart* Kweerwolf! :) n/t

[davidinalameda]

36. I've had this question on my mind lately

I'm getting ready to change my registration back to Democratic from Green

I have come to the conclusion that working from within is the best way to bring about change

those of us who do feel that civil rights, and particularly gay rights are the most important issues need to get more involved and support our candidates and make sure the party nominates candidates that support us

we can sit back and bitch and moan about what Kerry did and what Clinton did but you know what, it doesn't really matter right now.

I'm not saying that I'm going to forgive them for what they've done in the past unless they do change their stances

and to me, politics is all about what have you done for me lately

Kerry made some remarks in Louisiana about not wanting his state party to adopt a plank endorsing same sex marriages

Hill has constantly been moving to the right in preparation for her run in 2008

Kerry and Hill have made it clear that they're willing to sell out anyone for a few extra votes

I'm lucky to live in California where the state is still blue and I can afford to give my vote to a 3rd party candidate but if I lived in another state where it was close, I'd hold my nose and vote for whomever the Dems nominate because a bad Democrat is still better than most anything the Republicans put up.

But I will not, and never have, voted for anyone just because there was a "D" after their name.

I really believe that Dean will start moving the party back to the left and make us a real alternative to the Republicans.

[terrya]

39. The only ones who supported same-sex marriage were:

Dennis Kuchinch and Al Sharpton in 2004.

I guess of the candidates who might be available for 2008 would be Clark. NOT Hillary (I agree with you there). I honestly think that if you got Kerry to be completely off the record, I think deep down he supports same-sex marriage. He was only one of 6 Senators who opposed DOMA. And Kerry is superb on the other GLBT issues...ENDA, lifting DADT, gay adoptions.

[davidinalameda]

41. I don't want off the record

I want on the record and out in public

and there are Republicans that are "superb" on other GLBT issues but I don't want them as president

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

42. Carol Mosley-Braun, too

though she was never a "serious contender"

[Lisaben2619]

43. We shouldn't support any Democrat for President.

The Green Party has consistently and adamantly supported full civil and social rights for all LGBTQA people and will continue to do so even at the expense of political expediency. Our minority needs to end this sick "political codependency" on a party which wants our votes, time and money then stabs us in the back time and time again. We seem to be like abused spouses; running back to our abusers when they promise to never let it happen again.

All this talk of "the big tent" is getting old--there is no tent big enough for me and people who oppose marriage equality (Kerry, Clinton,Gephardt, et al), or who support unilateral wars for the purpose of empire-building (Bayh), or who want to make it impossible for people to get out of debt (Kohl) or who think the Patriot Act, drilling in the Arctic, free unfair trade, and limiting a woman's right to choice are good things (too many to name here). I'm sorry, I will no longer share my tent with bigots, war-mongers, greedy assholes, theocrats, etc. These people have not been our friends and have proven that they cannot be trusted.

[Guy Fawkes]

44. Russ Fiengold! He's PRO gay marriage!

AND he's the only senetor to vote against the PATRIOT Act!