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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-08-09 10:01 PM
Original message
Prohibition of a right versus pro-choice of a right. Common ground for same-sex marriage and RKBA.
Background, the cartoon refers to D.C. losing its case D.C. v. Heller in which D.C. banned handguns for self-defense. SCOTUS said the Second Amendment is a pre-existing right like the First and Fourth and did not depend upon the Constitution. RKBA (Right to Keep and Bear Arms).

D.C. shot itself in the head and now heads toward another divisive, polarizing political issue.

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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-08-09 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. afraid teh Gays will cost us another election?
get this shit outa here It's not welcome
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-08-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. What's your problem? I pointed out those who are pro-choice on same-sex marriage have common ground
with those who are pro-choice on RKBA.

Both pro-choice groups are fighting groups who want to prohibit a right.

I'm pro-choice so if you oppose me you must be for prohibiting a right whether that right is enumerated in the constitution, unenumerated but protected by the 9th Amendment or a legal right.
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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-08-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Seriously
You're missing the forum button. Guns is one BELOW GLBT.

Please tell me you have better aim with a weapon than you have with your mouse.

--Proud prior Navy/Marine who feels no need to keep a gun. Anyone that comes into my house is in going to be in damned near enough trouble even without me having a firearm.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Are you for marriage equality? n/t
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galaxy21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Seriously, just hit the alert button rather than all this 'hey, wait, are you for gay marriage?'
Edited on Sat May-09-09 08:13 AM by galaxy21
He couldn't be on here if he wasn't. I know that. You know that.He probably knows that. It's easy to see through.If you really do genuinely think something else is going on tell a mod and let them deal with it.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I asked a serious question about rights which pits "prohibition" against "pro-choice".
SCOTUS recognizes pre-existing rights protected by the First, Second, and Fourth Amendments.

PA (1776) and VT (1777) identified pre-existing rights as "natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable" rights.

Those rights that SCOTUS calls pre-existing rights obligate government to protect against infringement by a simple majority vote by voters or voter's representatives. That protects those rights exercised by a minority against the tyranny of a simple majority.

If a pre-existing right is incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment, then states are bound by that same protection.

I've asked before have groups in California argued that same-sex marriage is an inalienable/unalienable right protected by CA's Constitution?
SECTION 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.

Absent recognition by SCOTUS or a state supreme court that same-sex marriage is a pre- existing right it seems to me that it becomes a legal right issue subject to the whims of a simple majority of voters as is the case in CA.

I have no idea whether constitutional scholars can make a case that same-sex marriage is a pre-existing right but I do know that SCOTUS on 26 June 2008 finally ruled that was the case with RKBA protected by the Second Amendment.

That's why I posted this thread.

Anyone from pro-choice GL/RKBA groups will immediately recognize the question I raise, e.g. PINK PISTOLS
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I asked a serious question of you.
I wanted to establish your position on marriage equality.

Fact #1:
Your answer is that, "You are for all rights."

Fine.

Further facts come from this answer:

Fact #2: You defined pre-existing rights: PA (1776) and VT (1777) identified pre-existing rights as "natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable" rights.

Fine.

Fact #3: Those rights that SCOTUS calls pre-existing rights obligate government to protect against infringement by a simple majority vote by voters or voter's representatives. That protects those rights exercised by a minority against the tyranny of a simple majority.

Yup.


Fact #4:If a pre-existing right is incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment, then states are bound by that same protection.

For one thing I am not sure what rights are Incorporated into the 14 th Amendment.

"The amendment provides a broad definition of citizenship, overruling Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857) which had excluded slaves and their descendants from possessing Constitutional rights. The amendment requires states to provide equal protection under the law to all people within their jurisdictions and was used in the mid-20th century to dismantle racial segregation in the United States, as in Brown v. Board of Education (1954). This clause has also been used to create: (1) substantive due process rights, such as parental and marriage rights; and (2) procedural due process rights requiring that certain steps, such as a hearing, be followed before a person's property interest can be taken away...

Section 1, arguably the most far-reaching section of the Fourteenth Amendment, formally defines citizenship and protects people's civil and political rights from infringement by any state" -wikipedia

Yup. I have heard self identified lawyers here on DU argue that for example Proposition 8 is a violation of due process.

Statement #1:

I've asked before have groups in California argued that same-sex marriage is an inalienable/unalienable right protected by CA's Constitution?

Fact#5
SECTION 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.


Yes, as I recall in past discussions here on DU, it's been a few months, but if I recall, the reason that California Supreme Court allowed equal marriage rights to all of it's citizens, was based on this premise. That it deprived a certain group (gay people), which they defined as a group that was subject to discrimination, which then led to way to judicial scrutiny, I believe it was intermediate scrutiny and not strict scrutiny. It was that position that Proposition 8 then reversed.


Statement #2: Absent recognition by SCOTUS or a state supreme court that same-sex marriage is a pre- existing right it seems to me that it becomes a legal right issue subject to the whims of a simple majority of voters as is the case in CA.

Statement #3:I have no idea whether constitutional scholars can make a case that same-sex marriage is a pre-existing right but I do know that SCOTUS on 26 June 2008 finally ruled that was the case with RKBA protected by the Second Amendment.

I believe the argument went like this: Marriage is a right. Therefore, a State cannot legislate away the rights of a suspect group. Suspect meaning they are suspect for being a discreet group that has been subject to discrimination.

Again, it's been a while, but as I recall, without looking everything up at the moment, the original position of the CSSC was that marriage was a civil right and could not be withheld from certain groups on the basis of unequal treatment of that group.

Statement #4:I have no idea whether constitutional scholars can make a case that same-sex marriage is a pre-existing right but I do know that SCOTUS on 26 June 2008 finally ruled that was the case with RKBA protected by the Second Amendment.

Yes, I think they have made that argument.
Then, because the CSSC found marriage equality a right that should be extended to same sex and different sex couples, the right wing activists floated Prop8 and the rest is history.

The CSSC found same sex marriage as having equal access under law to civil marital rights.
That principle was put to a popular vote, called a Proposition, and the good people of California voted to remove that right.

I may still have some of these past discussions on file, I'll see if I can dig them up to answer your questions.







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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. "the justices rule that people have a fundamental 'right to marry'"
Edited on Sat May-09-09 10:56 AM by bluedawg12
We discussed this here on DU GLBT in December, here's some info. that I posted back then:


............
Here is some more info. about how the CSC viewed gay minority status before Hate8
Here is what CSC said before PHate8

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage16-2...

>>In a 4-3 decision, the justices rule that people have a fundamental 'right to marry' the person of their choice and that gender restrictions violate the state Constitution's equal protection guarantee<<

By Maura Dolan, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
May 16, 2008

>>The 4-3 ruling declared that the state Constitution protects a fundamental "right to marry" that extends equally to same-sex couples. It tossed a highly emotional issue into the election year while opening the way for tens of thousands of gay people to wed in California, starting as early as mid-June.


The majority opinion, by Chief Justice Ronald M. George, declared that any law that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation will from this point on be constitutionally suspect in California in the same way as laws that discriminate by race or gender, making the state's high court the first in the nation to adopt such a stringent standard.

The decision was a bold surprise from a moderately conservative, Republican-dominated court that legal scholars have long dubbed "cautious," and experts said it was likely to influence other courts around the country.

But the scope of the court's decision could be thrown into question by an initiative already heading toward the November ballot. The initiative would amend the state Constitution to prohibit same-sex unions.<<
.........

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/amar/20080522.html

By: Vikram David Amar
Vikram David Amar is a professor of law at the University of California, Davis School of Law. He is a 1988 graduate of the Yale Law School, and a former clerk to Justice Harry Blackmun.

>>But viewed from a different angle, the people's power to undo last week's ruling via statewide simple-majority popular vote seems more troubling. After all, one of the rationales relied on by the California Supreme court in invalidating California's statutory ban on same-sex marriage was the notion that government discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation should be viewed skeptically, because gays and lesbians are groups that have been historically victimized by invidious and prejudicial treatment that bears no relationship to their ability to perform in or contribute to society. This history of irrational prejudice, the court said, was "the most important factor in deciding whether" laws that treat gays and lesbians differently from straight persons should be constitutionally suspect.

But if the very reason why discrimination against gays and lesbians is constitutionally wrong is that the political majority has tended in the past to treat them unfairly, isn't it odd that the same political majority can, with a simple initiative vote in November, impose its will on them yet again?

<snip>

The California Supreme Court Based Its Ruling Only on the California Constitution, Yet the U.S. Constitution Will Come Back Into Play if CMPA Passes in November

State constitutions operate not just in the larger context of morality and justice, but also in the larger context of the U.S. Constitution. And that fact raises some interesting questions about the interplay between California and federal law. In particular, what effect does the federal Constitution have on last week's ruling, or November's initiative outcome?

As to last week's ruling, the federal Constitution is beside the point. As noted earlier, the California justices ruled under state law only, and there is certainly nothing in the federal Constitution that prevents state law from recognizing same-sex marriage. Although the U.S. Supreme Court has not indicated it is yet ready to recognize a federal constitutional right to gay marriage (a point to which I shall return later in the column), states are free to do what they want in this area by way of affirmatively equalizing marriage rights.

<snip>

( think this part is about “settled law” or stare decisis)
Under the due process clause of the U.S. Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, states are limited in their ability to upset settled expectations about important property and liberty interests. And for the California constitution to tell same-sex couples that they are free to marry (as it currently does), and then tell them (after the constitution is altered in November) that their decision to marry is no longer honored by the State may unfairly disturb their reliance interest, and upset their reasonable expectations.

At the very least, the possibility of a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment should leave California courts (which will interpret the CMPA) inclined to read it narrowly and to deny it any retroactive effect.

<snip>

What Are the Chances that a Federal Constitutional Right to Same-Sex Marriage Will Be Found?

Finally, what, if anything, does last week's ruling tell us about a federal constitutional right to same-sex marriage? Many commentators will say, "Nothing at all," because the meaning of the federal Constitution is distinct from the meaning of state constitutions. It is true that federal law and state law have separate lives. But it is also true that they often influence each other.

Another area, at least for many Supreme Court Justices, is substantive due process. What counts as a federally-protected "fundamental right" depends on what states have done, and what they are continuing to do. While Massachusetts and California are still the outliers in the national gay-marriage picture, those two States do comprise almost one seventh of the American people. And it won't take many more (populous) states following their lead to create a trend that might count in the eyes of Justice Anthony Kennedy and the other key Justices whose views on the meaning of fundamental federal rights dictate outcomes in the Supreme Court.


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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Re-review of the Equal Protection Clause and It's Application to Gay Rights.
I posted this back in December, it may be of benefit to review some aspects of this concept:

A Quick Review of Equal Protection Clause and It's Application to Gay Rights.

bluedawg12 (1000+ posts) Sat Dec-06-08 04:10 PM
Original message
A Quick Review of Equal Protection Clause and It's Application to Gay Rights.
The Equal Protection Clause(EPC)

I am not a legal beagle but discussion of the EPC has come up so often that I thought it would be good to review some of the meanings of various terms and concepts surrounding EPC and gay civil rights.

This topic also goes directly to the heart of some the sneaky right wing ideas and language that they have been pushing. When we hear the following terms alarms should go off. They are rw code for turning back the clock away from human rights movements:

Activist judges
Term limits for Judges
States Rights
Gay is a choice or a life style, not a biological entity.
Strict constructionist judges and fundamental interpretation of the Constitution.

We have heard discussions about how the Courts will review Proposition 8 in terms of the The Equal Protection Clause, how gays constitute a minority, are a “suspect classification,” and are entitled to either strict scrutiny or intermediate scrutiny under law.

BTW, gays being a "suspect" classification does not mean that gays are a suspicious group, it means that when laws are passed singaling out a minority the,"law that categorizes on that basis (is) suspect, and therefore deserving of greater judicial scrutiny."

Groups that are entitled to strict scrutiny, the Court has suggested, are

“discrete and insular minorities” who have historically faced extensive unjustifiable discrimination,

who are unable to remove themselves from the category,

and who have been the subject of such prejudice that they are unable to protect their interests in the legislative process.

One of the chief reasons that anti-gay rights advocates continue to bang and bloviate on the issue of whether being gay is a “choice or lifestyle” is that they know damned well that if they win that argument, they would remove gay rights from strict or intermediate scrutiny, which requires that such a group is “unable to remove themselves from the category,” but, if as they maintain, we could simply change our life style, then, “Bingo!” we are not a protected group and in fact we are not a “suspect group” nor would we be, “discrete and insular minorities.”

This also ties into the often heard right wing comments lamenting “activist judges,” or we hear the other notion, of being able to fire Supreme Court Justices or limiting their terms. We also hear terms like “strict constructionist judges,” the rw fantasy of the fundamental interpretation of the Constitution, as is their penchant for interpreting other tomes in a “fundamental” fashion, plus, they like things that are “strict.” eeew.

Of course if the Justices were to repeal Roe v Wade or other rw causes, they would naturally sing a different tune, as they are well known for their lame situational ethics.

What they want is to return to some long past status quo and to their fading power hierarchy, where blacks, gays and women all just shut up and quietly sat down way in the back of the bus, or in Plessey vs Ferguson, it would be train.

The EPC is meant to ensure that States cannot pass laws that ignore Federal Constitutional rights, hence the other right wing cry: “It’s about States rights!” as they try State by State to enact laws that abridge the rights of gays, as minorities. Which is why it will have to be fought State by State, over time, with regards to the EPC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause
The Equal Protection Clause, part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, provides that "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".

The Equal Protection Clause can be seen as an attempt to secure the promise of the United States' professed commitment to the proposition that "all men are created equal" by empowering the judiciary to enforce that principle against the states.

More concretely, the Equal Protection Clause, along with the rest of the Fourteenth Amendment, marked a great shift in American constitutionalism. Before the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Bill of Rights protected individual rights only from invasion by the federal government. After the Fourteenth Amendment was enacted, the Constitution also protected rights from abridgement by state leaders, and governments, even including some rights that arguably were not protected from abridgement by the federal government. In the wake of the Fourteenth Amendment, the states could not, among other things, deprive people of the equal protection of the laws. What exactly such a requirement means, of course, has been the subject of great debate, and the story of the Equal Protection Clause is the gradual explication of its meaning.

The Supreme Court has seemed unwilling to extend full "suspect class" status (i.e., status that makes a law that categorizes on that basis suspect, and therefore deserving of greater judicial scrutiny) to groups other than racial minorities and religious groups. In City of Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, Inc. (1985), the Court refused to make the developmentally disabled a suspect class.

In Lawrence v. Texas (2003), the Court struck down a Texas statute prohibiting homosexual sodomy on substantive due process grounds. In Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's opinion concurring in the judgment, however, she argued that by prohibiting only homosexual sodomy, and not heterosexual sodomy as well, Texas's statute did not meet rational-basis review under the Equal Protection Clause; her opinion prominently cited City of Cleburne.

Notably, O'Connor did not claim to apply a higher level of scrutiny than mere rational basis, and the Court has not extended suspect-class status to sexual orientation.

The Court's decision in Romer v. Evans (1996), on which O'Connor also relied in her Lawrence opinion, and which struck down a Colorado constitutional amendment aimed at denying homosexuals "minority status, quota preferences, protected status or claim of discrimination," seemed to employ a markedly higher level of scrutiny than the nominally applied rational-basis test.

While the courts have applied rational-basis scrutiny to classifications based on sexual orientation, it has been argued that discrimination based on sex should be interpreted to include discrimination based on sexual orientation, in which case intermediate scrutiny could apply to gay rights cases.

The Supreme Court has defined these levels of scrutiny in the following way:

Strict scrutiny (if the law categorizes on the basis of race or national origin): the law is unconstitutional unless it is "narrowly tailored" to serve a "compelling" government interest. In addition, there cannot be a "less restrictive" alternative available to achieve that compelling interest.

Intermediate scrutiny (if the law categorizes on the basis of sex): the law is unconstitutional unless it is "substantially related" to an "important" government interest. (In past decisions "sex" generally has meant the male/female distinction, not sexual intercourse).

Rational-basis test (if the law categorizes on some other basis): the law is constitutional so long as it is "reasonably related" to a "legitimate" government interest.





http://www.answers.com/topic/equal-protection-clause

Equal Protection Clause
Clause set out in the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution that dictates that state governments cannot pass or enforce any laws based solely on a specific classification of person by race, gender, religion, ethnicity, or age.

US Supreme Court: Equal Protection
The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, adopted in 1868, expressed the commitment of victorious Republican forces after the Civil War to include in the Constitution some protection for the equal rights of newly emancipated slaves.

The focus of the concern for equality was on the rights of African-Americans, but the framers of the Equal Protection Clause deliberately drafted it to provide protection for the equal rights of all persons.

By its terms, the Equal Protection Clause covers action only by state governments.

The Court has, in general, applied the same standards of equal treatment to action by Congress as it has to action by state legislatures.

Ideas of equality prevalent in the 1860s distinguished between civil, political, and social rights.

Equality with respect to civil rights meant equal status in the legal relations of the private economy, coupled with the right to enforce that equal status.

Equality with respect to political rights was more controversial at the outset, with many supporters of equal civil rights opposed to equal voting rights for African-Americans.

Social rights were those arising from the personal, noneconomic interactions among people, and there was general agreement in 1868 that the federal government ought not attempt to guarantee equality in that domain.

When the Court upheld a statute requiring railroads to segregate their passengers by race (Plessy v. Ferguson, 1896), it effectively abandoned the effort to assure civil equality for African-Americans through the Constitution.

The Court suggested that it would apply the Constitution with special care in cases involving disabilities imposed on “discrete and insular minorities” (Footnote Four, United States v. Carolene Products, 1938).

Strict Scrutiny

And in the course of upholding the internment of Japanese Americans during the war, it stated that classifications affecting racial minorities had to survive “strict scrutiny” (Korematsu v. United States, 1944), which the Japanese relocation measures did, the only instance in modern times when a race-discriminating government action has.

The final element of the revival of the Equal Protection Clause occurred when the Court invalidated a statute requiring the sterilization of violent recidivists, but not recidivists in white-collar crime, on the ground that classifications affecting fundamental interests had to be strictly scrutinized (Skinner v. Oklahoma, 1942).

During the 1960s the Supreme Court overturned numerous statutes requiring segregated public facilities and began to explore the broader implications of the doctrine it had begun to develop in the prior decade.

The Court under Chief Justice Warren Burger pulled back from the broader suggestions in these cases and ultimately held that strict scrutiny was appropriate only in cases involving traditional racial minorities and fundamental interests that were themselves spelled out in the Constitution (*San Antonio School District v. Rodriguez, 1973).

Formally, the problem of equal treatment arises when the government treats one group differently from another in the pursuit of some social goal.

Ordinarily, not all members of the disadvantaged group will contribute to the evil that the government is trying to avert and some members of the favored group will contribute to that evil. Classifications are therefore typically both “overinclusive” and “underinclusive.”

The problem for equal protection law is to specify what degree of lack of correspondence between the social goal and the classification used is permissible under what circumstances.

Equal protection law can be described in two ways.

“suspect” classifications

First, the Court distinguishes between statutes that themselves utilize racial or other “suspect” classifications and statutes that, though stated in nonracial terms, nonetheless have a “disparate impact” on racial minorities.

If the statutes use racial terms, they must survive strict scrutiny, which means that the legislature must be attempting to promote extremely important social goals, and the use of the racial category must be almost essential if those goals are to be served. The fit between the social goal and the classification must be extremely close.

In contrast, if the statutes are “facially neutral” in not using racial terms, the fact that they have a disparate impact in practice does not automatically lead to strict scrutiny. Only if the unfair impact on minorities is deliberately intended by the legislature will the Court demand strict scrutiny; otherwise, the legislation must simply be using a classification that is a rational method of accomplishing social goals that the legislature believes important.

The second description of equal protection law treats the distinction between “strict scrutiny” and “rational relationship” differently. On this view the Court has identified several types of classifications.

Some, such as racial classifications, call for strict scrutiny, where the fit between social goal and classification must be extremely close, whereas others, such as those basing government action on the ability of people to pay for services or on their participation in certain aspects of the private economy, are social and economic legislation where the legislature must merely be rational in using the classification to serve its goals.

In the latter cases, the fit between social goal and classification can be quite loose; the legislature can regulate many people who do not contribute to the evil it is trying to avert, and it can fail to regulate a great many people who do contribute to that evil.

Groups that are entitled to strict scrutiny, the Court has suggested, are

“discrete and insular minorities” who have historically faced extensive unjustifiable discrimination,

who are unable to remove themselves from the category,

and who have been the subject of such prejudice that they are unable to protect their interests in the legislative process.


“Intermediate” scrutiny.

There is, however, a third group of classifications that calls for “intermediate” scrutiny.

The doctrinal formulations of intermediate scrutiny have varied, as have the groups that elicit it.

The prototypical case involves a classification based on gender,

Intermediate scrutiny typically means that the Court will look somewhat skeptically on the claim that using a gender or similar classification is necessary to serve important social goals, but it will not demand the extraordinarily high levels of justification that it seeks in cases involving strict scrutiny.

Using intermediate scrutiny, the Court invalidated gender segregation in nursing schools (Mississippi University for Women v. Hogan, 1982) and Virginia's operation of a military college to train only men with a distinctive curriculum (United States v. Virginia, 1996). It upheld a requirement that only men register for the draft, at least when women are not eligible by statute for combat duty (Rostker v. Goldberg, 1981).

Analysts have had difficulty reconciling the Court's results with the doctrinal formulations it uses.

For example, the Court explicitly refrained from requiring either strict or intermediate scrutiny in a case involving discrimination against the mentally retarded, but it nonetheless found unconstitutional a city's attempt to bar a residential group home for the mentally retarded (City of Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, 1985).

Justice Thurgood Marshall criticized the Court for pretending that its equal protection analysis uses rigid categories, in which only a few “suspect” classifications or fundamental rights spelled out elsewhere in the Constitution receive special protection.

Rather, he argued, it has adjusted the degree of justification it demands according to a sensitive calculus that takes into account questions of degree.

These questions include how important the interest affected is, whether or not that interest is specifically protected by the Constitution, and how similar the affected group is to groups that have historically been the subjects of unjustifiable discrimination.

Justice John Paul Stevens suggested a similar approach, based on his view that “there is only one Equal Protection Clause” (Craig v. Boren, 1976), not several with different standards of review.

Commentators generally agree that Marshall's analysis and Stevens's make more sense of the Court's actual behavior, and that a more flexible approach than the Court's is appropriate to deal with the varied problems of classification that the Court confronts.

Some decisions suggest a relaxation of the Court's dedication to the “tier” approach. Romer v. Evans (1996) invalidated a Colorado initiative that denied homosexuals and lesbians the ability to secure “protected status” under state antidiscrimination rules, invoking rational-basis review and refraining from holding that sexual orientation was a suspect classification. *

Despite these decisions and academic criticisms, the Court seems committed to using the verbal formulations expressed in the “tier” approach.

Bibliography

Michael Kent Curtis, No State Shall Abridge: The Fourteenth Amendment and the Bill of Rights (1986).
Gerald Gunther, Foreword: In Search of Evolving Doctrine on a Changing Court: A Model for a Newer Equal Protection, Harvard Law Review 86 (1972): 1–48.
Kenneth W. Simons, Overinclusion and Underinclusion: A New Model, UCLA Law Review 36 (1989): 447–528


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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Thanks, I answered your posts in sequence so my #15 was before reading your #11/#12. Darn you, now
I have to read all your material and their citations, etc.

Thanks for your very thoughtful posts, :hi:
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Lots of material but one "what rights are Incorporated into the 14 th Amendment" include the 1st and
4th with the 2nd yet to be determined by SCOTUS however the 9th circuit decision in Nordyke incorporates the 2nd in the 14th.

Thanks for all the information. I hope you or someone else will provide links to court decisions dealing with the same-sex marriage as a pre-existing right issue and links to briefs from both sides so that I and perhaps other DUers can study that history without having to search for them.

For example, the SCOTUS decision in D.C. v. Heller on the 2nd Amendment, one of the subjects in the cartoon, has several briefs from both sides and they are an excellent source of information, one source is DC v. Heller (ScotusWiki)

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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. "We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Life is obvious--don't randomly kill people.

Liberty is less obvious, but it's basically, people have the right to self-determination, so long as they are not hurting, or likely to hurt, other people.

the pursuit of Happiness is the most difficult. Again, you're not allowed to pursue happiness if your idea of pursuing happiness is making other people miserable. Note that there are limits even here--my pursuit of happiness might require a really large party full of drunk friends on a Saturday night until 3 a.m. That's not a real pre-existing right, though.

The last point that I'd make is that if you need to lean on a SCOTUS decision where Antonin Scalia is backing your side and claims that "precedence doesn't matter to me," then I really, honestly and truly look forward to the day a SCOTUS made up of evolved human beings decide that any opinion Scalia was a part of carries no weight of precedence. I'd even like to see that put in precise terms. Another way of saying it is, that if you're agreeing with Scalia, you're wrong. Not even "probably wrong". Absolutely wrong. This is a clock that isn't even right twice a day.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Seriously, if I need your help in carrying on a conversation I'll let you know.
"I know that. You know that. He probably knows that."

I hope he know what he stand for and not just in probability.

"If you really do genuinely think something else is going on tell a mod and let them deal with it."

You don't know what I know and what I think, so do not put words in my mouth.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yes specifically and I'm pro-choice on all rights. n/t
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
9. Jesus Christ
Go back to the gungeon already, no one in here gives a shit.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. I'm disappointed that "no one in here gives a shit" about the right to same-sex marriage whether a
pre-existing right or legal right.

Perhaps you exaggerated a bit in your assertion because this thread has at least one very thoughtful DUer who replied to my OP.
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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. It's more like
"Quit conflating unrelated issues."

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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
13. Jody, I have a question about your cartoon.
As I understand it, DC passed legislation imposing gun control.

And as you have pointed out here and elsewhere on DU, you are for the RKBA.

Then, you explained that, "SCOTUS said the Second Amendment is a pre-existing right like the First and Fourth and did not depend upon the Constitution. RKBA (Right to Keep and Bear Arms)."

So, the first instance, the DC law imposing some form of gun control ( don't know the details of that law, so using gun control in a generic fashion) was an attempt to curtail rights. "Another divisive, polarizing political issue," as you called it.

Next, in the cartoon, the toddler "DC" is heading towards, what you call, "another divisive, polarizing political issue," marriage equality.

In the first instance, by your reckoning, DC sought to take away pre-existing rights and should not have passed gun control laws, hence, it makes sense that you would see that law as divisive and polarizing, and in fact, according to SCOTUS a pre-existing right and DC did not need to take on that issue, it was a matter of removing rights.

In the second instance, DC is moving to wards extending rights, not removing them.

Would you therefore, say that if DC should not have headed for the first divisive issue of gun control, that now, it should not be heading to wards the second issue of marriage equality?

It seems to me one was a case of removing rights while the other is a case of extending right.

That's what was so confusing about the cartoon you posted, and that was the reason why I asked if you are in favor of marriage equality.

Because the cartoon implies that DC takes up stupid and divisive issues like: gun control and marriage equality.

Taking away rights does not equate to granting rights. See my point?





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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. exactly, Flame bait
meant to start a discussion on whether or not DC should move foward with such a stupid and devisive issue. I don;t think that's a discussion Gays want to have. IT IS TIME; do or die
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I see your point exactly, that's why I started the OP subject "Prohibition of a right versus
Edited on Sat May-09-09 03:06 PM by jody
pro-choice of a right".

IMO the two rights used in the cartoon are divisive, polarizing political issues and I hoped to show that those who are pro-choice on specific rights have much in common in their opposition to those who would prohibit specific rights.

SCOTUS' decision was for pro-choice RKBA and away from prohibiting RKBA as D.C.did with its old law.

IMO what is needed is a decision by SCOTUS for pro-choice on same-sex marriage and away from prohibiting same-sex marriage.

I believe we are saying the same thing re marriage equality differing only in ways of expression.

I did not create the cartoon but I was struck by the cartoonist's insight in recognizing that D.C. after having its law prohibiting RKBA ruled unconstitutional and figuratively shooting itself in both head and foot, was once again facing a losing battle if it tried to prohibit same-sex marriage.

ON EDIT ADD:
RE "Taking away rights does not equate to granting rights. See my point?"

SCOTUS says government does not have the authority to take away a pre-existing right nor can government grant a pre-existing right.

SCOTUS said:
c. Meaning of the Operative Clause. Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation. This meaning is strongly confirmed by the historical background of the Second Amendment. We look to this because it has always been widely understood that the Second Amendment, like the First and Fourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right. The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it “shall not be infringed.” As we said in United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876), “{t}his is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed . . . .”


That's why I said "I've asked before have groups in California argued that same-sex marriage is an inalienable/unalienable right protected by CA's Constitution?"

If CA has declared same-sex marriage is an inalienable right, wouldn't that be just as important as PA (1776) and VT (1777) declaring "I. That all men are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and inalienable/unalienable rights, amongst which are, the enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety." and "XIII. That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state"?

If SCOTUS were to recognize that same-sex marriage is an "inalienable right" under CA's constitution and use that in a SCOTUS decision, then the argument would shift to just how much a state can "infringe" on that right without absolutely "prohibiting" it as is now the case in some states.

I hoped this thread would provoke a discussion along those lines.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Many thanks for the thoughtful exchange. After reading your posts, I found the following by CA Atty
Gen Jerry Brown, Prop 8 Should Be Struck Down (Wed Mar 04, 2009)
In 2008, the California Supreme Court was faced with the question of how the values enshrined in Article I apply to same sex marriages. It concluded that the concept of "liberty" includes the right to form the enduring relationship called marriage and that no compelling interest justified denying this right to same sex couples. Just like the right to be free from discrimination in housing, citizens have the right to be free from discrimination in state-granted marriage licenses.

With this Supreme Court decision, same sex marriage has the protection of Article 1 and, like other inalienable rights, cannot be taken away by a popular vote - whether it be 52% (as was the case in Proposition 8) or 65% (as it was for Proposition 14).

Outstanding, if Brown's view prevails with CA's Supreme Court, the next step would be a SCOTUS decision followed by incorporation in the 14th with incorporation making state governments subordinate to our Constitution on issues of rights.

That is the same path the pro-choice on RKBA group is traveling and the commonality I saw between the two rights.

Then the pro-choice same sex marriage group can have a victory celebration.

Have a great day. :hi:
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Hey- I've been working, so I couldn't reply till now. Ack!
Yes, these are all interesting questions.

I guess what happens with gun rights and marriage rights is parallel.

There are some Constitutional gaurantees but then licensing goes back down to a State/local level.

So with marriage, some of the anti marriage equality arguments have come down to things like protecting "traditional" values and that phrase in Jerry Brown's piece that you just posted, that's the catch phrase: "no compelling interest justified denying this right,..."

Compelling interest arugments used by the rw include the same old, now debunked arguments, that "it's for the sake of the kids," etc. I think Calif. SCOTUS saw through all of those and voted for justice, the first time around.

Then you throw in on a local level, like cities and "compelling interests," are probably really different for say RKBA than rural.

In either issue pick something that stirs up local emotions and suddenly you find a federal right can be taken away by a local govt. entity. I haven't followed the RKBA laws that much, my State allows RKBA so it's not come up much, but then, we are pretty rural. From what I gather, there are probably different "compelling reasons," regionally pro and against.

What is troubling is that in California, not only were rights finally granted but the unkindest cut of all was taking away those rights from people who had followed the new law, got married, tried to adopt each others kids, tried for insurance coverage as a "family," as quite a few couples have kids, or simply for spousal benefits and by dint of some crappy process such as a "proposition" on a ballot, like a damned beauty pagent, those rights were taken away as if gay couples weren't human.

Think of it from my perspective, I can carry, but I can't marry? Makes no sense.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. DU thread related to our discussion "Governor defends gay marriage decision (Maine)"
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. You notice how there is always a small core group of well funded
rw activists who pop up in every State to fight this?

If it's done by the Courts - they're "activist judges," if it's done by State legislatures, "they're just left wing loonies" here is the truth, they even fight couple registries that are no more legal than than a wedding gift registry from Crate&Barrel.

That hard core of rightwing fanatics is always there to rain on any victory.
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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. Looks like you misinterpreted the cartoon
It says that attempting to ban guns was a mistake, which led to them shooting themselves in the foot and the head. It then says that moving toward gay marriage is a bigger mistake that will likely destroy DC entirely.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. a great place to say "see, not now, next time"
that's what I saw.
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RufusH Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. That is certainly how it looks to me.
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