Why still so few mainstream films with gay characters?

[theHandpuppet]

Why is the TV & film industry so behind the times? Over the past several years we've had a few films, such as "Milk" and "Brokeback Mountain" and though each has claimed both critical and financial success I haven't seen that success lead to a more proportionate representation of GLBTs on the screen. And what rare gay characters we've had -- and I'm speaking lead roles here -- are invariably white and male. Lesbians and GLBTs of color are still virtually invisible.

TV fares better than film, IMHO, thanks to talk show hosts such as Rosie O'Donnell and Ellen Degeneres, but the public's appreciation doesn't seem to have translated into film roles for lesbian characters.

Perhaps its just the nature of the film industry itself. Frankly, most of the offerings are such testosterone-laden fests of blood and gore and explosions that I find there's nothing compelling me to buy a ticket. I can either choose between a movie in which the main characters are required to be so hyper-male they have to wear rubber suits to exaggerate a muscle-bound anatomy even a comic book hero could envy, or I can sit through some insipid "chick flick" where yet another cute but terminally vapid het couple struggle through an interminable series of esteem-shattering humiliations, albeit by the time the predictable ending rolls around even the cuteness has drowned in a sea of nose-dripping angst. And when the deepst question one ponders while leaving the theatre is, "Why would a robot need a titanium codpiece?" you know you just blew another 20 bucks to rot your brain.

I have learned a few things from films about what it means to be a gay person in a heterocentric society -- take the iconic Star Trek, for instance. In some forty-plus years of its manifestations on the small and large screen, I've learned that the entire universe is straight. That's right. You can fly at warp speed from one "end" of the universe to the other and you'll find nothing but species comprised of heterosexuals, or heterosexual humans who are attracted to other species who are likewise heterosexual. You are alone in the universe, little gay bags of mostly water, and undoubtedly the real reason UFOs are visiting earth is to gawk at the gay folks, since there's obviously nothing like us anywhere else in the galaxy. (We should appoint George Takei as our first ambassador to the stars.)

Now some of you who live in NY or LA or Chicago are lucky to enough to have the option of taking your mate/date for an evening of dinner and a quasi gay-friendly show but the rest of us out here are pretty much stuck with a choice between watching biceps explode or prostitutes search for true love in the Hamptons. So we wait around for reviews of your latest finds among the obscure and subtitled and, knowing these small-screen gems won't come within a light year of our neighborhood theatres, wait for the DVD to become available in the art house catalog.

In the meanwhile, it's another night of sitting up with the sick dog, hoping to stay awake by working my way through the collection of DVDs and realizing I've seen them all a dozen times before. And so it goes...

[Smarmie Doofus]

1. I question this part:

>>>TV fares better than film, IMHO, thanks to talk show hosts such as Rosie O'Donnell and Ellen Degeneres, but the public's appreciation doesn't seem to have translated into film roles for lesbian characters.>>>

Rosie came out after she gave up her own show, if memory serves. Or more or less at the same time. Then she came back as the shrill, mean ever-quarrelsome fourth on a four-woman panel. In other words she reverted to type: the Queen of Nice ( own show; pre-coming-out. I believe Newsweek did a cover on her with exactly this title ) morphed suddenly ( she may or may not have been complicit with it) to classic popular Lesbian stereotype.

I've watched a few hours of Ellen over the last three years. ( Like her a lot; can't stand the show. Is the content any edgier than Mike Douglas or Merv Griffin? Jeeesus.) So far I've never heard her make any reference to her sexuality... directly or indirectly. Sure everyone *knows*. But in the '60s everyone had a Lesbian aunt that came to Xmas and Thanksgiving. Everyone knew. No one talked about it.

Just like Ellen... i.e. talk show version Ellen; i.e. "21st century Ellen", not "90's Ellen".

I don't see a helluva lot of progress. On commercial TV , anyway.

[Bluenorthwest]

3. Untrue

Ellen makes reference to her sexuality rather rarely, but much more frequently than say, Oprah, who is so convoluted that we don't even know if she has a sexuality, or if it belongs to that guy she talks about, or that woman she is always with, or both, or no one. Ellen is gay, married to Portia and the audience knows it. She spoke directly to her audience against Prop 8, GLBT politics no less. A thing DU can barely deal with. So she talks about movement politics and her wife. I don't think you watch her much. I've seen parts of her show many 6 times, and I've heard all of that.
In addition, just for kicks, let's recall that Ellen had a sitcom on which both she and her character came out o' the closet. That easily could have been the end of her career, but she did it anyway, and she's more popular than ever and that is progress.

[theHandpuppet]

5. TV has made greater strides than film, IMHO

And you are so right -- how soon folks forget the CRAP Ellen took, as well as the risk, for outing her character on her sitcom. But that's the last time we've seen a lead lesbian character.

Name the lead lesbian characters that have appeared in films in the past 15-20 years.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. I'm not talking about films

I mean I could come up with a few, but that was not my point.
My point was about Ellen, and her show, which is not as characterized, and her history, which seems to have been forgotten.
So I am not defending the film biz in any way. I'm defending Ellen. For being as out as it gets in show biz, and still being popular as can be.

[theHandpuppet]

12. I hear ya.

How soon folks forget not only the risk she took with her show but with her career. It's bizarre to hear her being criticized for not being "out" enough, as it were.

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. Ellen's coming out was a *monumental* event. In the 90's.

>>>>In addition, just for kicks, let's recall that Ellen had a sitcom on which both she and her character came out o' the closet. That easily could have been the end of her career, but she did it anyway, and she's more popular than ever and that is progress.>>>>

And she handled it masterfully. For this we owe her more than we can repay.

That said.... the coming out doesn't seem to have altered the landscape of commercial TV much. We did get Will and Grace, probably partially as fallout from Ellen. Then... pretty much nothing. GLBT's as bit parts, supporting roles and curiosities, but no "starring" roles. Ellen probably impacted cable more than commercial. But there you're talking about niche markets and not much cross-over audience. Limited impact on the society as a whole

I like Ellen. I'd like her more if she did more with the show that she has. That's a HUGE audience she's got there. I understand that there are, of course, constraints.

[theHandpuppet]

13. It seems there's been a regression rather than a progression

That's what's difficult to explain. And network honchos wonder why more and more folks are turning to cable for cutting edge shows. Network TV is run by wimps. (Two of the few shows I even watch are "Mad Men" and "Breaking Bad", which you'd never see on network TV.)

I'm not going to fault Ellen for anything, my friend. She's been carrying that load for us for a long time. Perhaps it's time for some other big names in the business to step out of the closet and up to the plate.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. She spoke against Prop 8 and the others in other states

On her show, directly, using her own life as a reason people should stand with her. Not one of our beloved administration folks went on TV to speak against those propositions. Obama sent a letter to one organization, and around here he is lionized for that. Ellen put her life on the line, again, for equality.
And the woman is a comic, not a politician.

[lindisfarne]

17. Is Oprah's sexuality anyone's business? I don't think a person's sexuality is anyone's business at

all, unless they share it (or unless they're passing laws which discriminate based on sexuality.)

[eShirl]

2. one of the Harry Potter characters is gay

according to the author

(did they ever move forward on the idea of a Xena movie? I haven't been keeping up)

[theHandpuppet]

4. "According to the author" doesn't count

I'm looking for OUT, main characters -- which Xena never was, BTW, despite the fantasies of the audience.

[eShirl]

7. in that case, none come to mind.

[Berry Cool]

6. You definitely have a point, except I'd say even Rosie and Ellen didn't help much

because how many times did you see either one play a gay character in a movie? Or on TV, for that matter?

I think the problem is that the movie and TV business is in business to please the largest audience, and in order to do that, they have to go with "straight" as the default orientation of most of their major characters and "gay" as the rare option. Surely if there were an equal number of gay and straight people in the population, things would be different--they would have to be--but look at how even movies are skewed largely toward what the average heterosexual teenage boy wants to see, rather than toward what anyone else wants to see. If women were a smaller percentage of the population than they are, we'd probably see very few romantic comedies at all, good or bad.

Because the goal in making mainstream films is to please the most frequent moviegoer--and that moviegoer tends to be young, male and straight--we get lots of action movies in which things get blowed up real good and the tough, macho hero of the piece gets some hot chick as his prize at the end. If we see gay characters at all, it tends to be either in the art house (where people go to see movies for reasons other than just to be entertained) or as peripheral comical characters, usually in romantic comedies as the female protagonist's Funny Gay Male Friend. In fact, you don't see nearly as many lesbians of ANY variety in movies as you do gay men, even if the gay men serve primarily in stereotypical comic relief roles, the same way blacks used to serve primarily in stereotypical slave/servant/domestic/comic relief roles.

Sadly, this is unlikely to change for people who want to see "more people like me" on the screen...unless a day comes along when half the world's population wakes up gay...

[Smarmie Doofus]

10. Hmm.... Gentiles go to see Jewish artists all the time.

Whites audiences go crazy for Denzel Washington movies. Why can't straight people appreciate or identify with GLBT's?


>>>Sadly, this is unlikely to change for people who want to see "more people like me" on the screen...unless a day comes along when half the world's population wakes up gay...>>>>>

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. GLBT actors are common enough, GLBT roles are not.

Why is hard to tell...reasons are all over the map and depend heavily on writers POV.

As for the criticism of Ellen, I disagree. She champions GLBT rights by being so normal, and showing that we are not strident freaks.

[Prism]

24. Race is a shallower difference than sexuality

No matter the skin color, people can still immerse themselves in a story and empathize with the general pattern of a film with decent ease. Take a white, straight, teenage male. He sees a Denzel Washington film where the main character chases the bad guy, blows stuff up, and kisses the girl at the end. He doesn't need to be black to do that. The viewer can plug himself right into the fantasy. Denzel's race isn't an integral part of that template. The white viewer can watch the story and still think "I want to be that hero and do those things and kiss that girl" regardless of the actor's race. On some level, the viewer is emotionally and sexually involved.

Flip it around a little. Chase a bad guy, blow stuff up . . . and kiss a boy? That same viewer isn't going to immerse themselves in the same way. Sexuality is a deeper chord. Straight male viewers generally don't want to do those things. The film doesn't speak to them as viscerally. They have a harder time living vicariously through a character whose main goal (get the boy in the end) isn't one they share.

Hollywood marketing types know this. They know an LGBT main character is going to have less broad-based appeal.

While we could say some of it is probably down to homophobia, I think it's generally the same reason you don't get a lot of straight men rushing to see "chick flicks". When one of the major plots and obsessions of the characters in a film is "Get the boy to kiss me," they're just not empathizing enough to maintain interest.

The other side of this coin, of course, is the great affinity so many gay males have for movies where "get the boy" is a primary theme.

Hollywood only produces what they think will sell.

[Smarmie Doofus]

27. Interesting points. I don't know: the color barrier really...

didn't start to fall 'til the 50's-60's; mostly courtesy of Sidney Poitier.

From wiki:
>>>However, Poitier began to be criticized for typecasting himself as playing overidealized black characters who were not permitted to have any sexuality or personality faults, such as his character in Guess Who's Coming To Dinner. Poitier was aware of this pattern himself, but was conflicted on the matter; he wanted more varied roles, but also felt obliged to set a good example with his characters to defy previous stereotypes on account that he was the only major black actor in the American film industry. >>>


Besides: is *every* movie about sexuality? I just saw the remake of Pelham 123 starring Denzel Washington as the "everyman" hero. The only hint of his heterosexuality is dropped toward the end where he establishes phone contact with his wife. It's a complete add-on (the original role was played by Walter Matthau and there was no wife and no sexual dimension to the character whatsoever.) and was not central... or really even germane... to the story line.

Question: if they gave the Denzel character a *male* spouse or spousal equivalent to call 20 minutes before the credits rolled the movie would have flopped? ( Money wise, that is.) I don't see why this is necessarily so.

[Prism]

28. You have a point

I was keeping in mind the standard action hero/summer blockbuster template, where the romantic subplot is a prominent part of the story.

There is a lot of room in films without a romantic subplot for gay main characters. Another Denzel Washington movie that would work in that capacity is The Siege. I hope/think we'll see more movement in this area over time until it isn't too big a deal. We should be further on that level than we are.

But I'm not sure about that above template. I think if we ever see LGBT characters plugged into it, it will likely involves lesbians in the Lara Croft kind of role.

[DarkTirade]

11. I'd say some part of it actually has to deal with the MPAA ratings board.

Any GLBT content is guaranteed to raise the movie's rating and make it less acessable to a normal audience. If you can get ahold of "This Film is Not Yet Rated" they talk about that. There are some interviews with the director of "But I'm a Cheerleader" and "Boys Don't Cry" about their dealings with the MPAA.

It's kinda fucked up that a small group of people can literally dictate what 'morality' is in mainstream movies. They answer to no one. Yet every big Hollywood production company has to answer to them.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. Hey! An informed post! Very good point indeed.

[Withywindle]

21. Remember 'Henry and June"?

About the three-way relationship between Anais Nin, Henry Miller, and June Miller? Wasn't that the movie the NC-17 rating was invented for - and wasn't that because the woman/woman scenes would have earned it an X, but X was by then associated with mindless porn, and this was a literary art film?

Funny, just the other day I watched "Total Eclipse," which came out in 1995 and kind of died. It had surprisingly explicit scenes - more so than in Brokeback Mountain, IIRC - between Leo DiCaprio as Arthur Rimbaud and David Thewlis as Paul Verlaine. (Every bit as tragic and depressing as Brokeback, and with more scenery-chewing).

Maybe it's different for historical movies about things decadent writers got up to in Paris?

[Prophet 451]

18. TV is a lot better

Rachel Maddow, Torchwood (where the entire cast is bi to one degree or other but most of the lead's love interests are same-sex), Buffy, etc...

[Withywindle]

23. Torchwood is a BBC show.

The Brits are way ahead of us on this.

Captain Jack was first introduced on the venerable 'Doctor Who', and his bisexuality and crush on the Doctor were pretty cheerfully alluded to - if not consummated- on what's often considered a kids' show, and nobody seemed to get too bent (pardon the expression) about it.

[Prophet 451]

25. Sorry yeah, I'm a Brit

Official cannon is that Jack did have a crush on the Doctor but it was never consummated due to the Doctor's asexuality with regard to most humans. A few of the usual suspects objected but were mostly ignored.

Jack's relationship with Ianto on Torchwood was very much consummated (trying not to spoil you guys for Children Of Earth which I gather hasn't been shown there yet).

[Withywindle]

26. Haven't seen Children of Earth yet but I've read the spoilers.

Their relationship was well-known before that - remember Gwen walking in on them naked and going at it in Season 2?

(Most screen-capped scene EVAH among the fangirls. :D)

[Prophet 451]

29. Oh yeah

I screencapped that too. Ianto does nothing for me but Jack is the sex.

[imdjh]

19. It's a predictable phase. I know we're not supposed to compare ourselves to black people, but...

What other minority is the closest comparison? Few people other than ourselves wants to watch us have sex. It's pretty much what it's about.

I can't compare us to Jews, they have been starring in romances from day one, even if most changed their names for the first six decades.

Interracial sex with Asians was breached a couple of times early on, notably in South Pacific. Asian women were considered exotic and sexual desirable, even if asian men weren't and even if interracial marriage wasn't socially acceptable depending upon location.

In the early days of film, latinos had not defined themselves out of the caucasian race (as many now do) for obvious reasons including social acceptability and the fact that the caucasian race simply couldn't sort out all the degrees. Besides, everyone thinks latinos are sexy.

But gay people have followed a pretty predictable course, similar if not directly in parallel with blacks in TV and film. Funny servants and tragic heroes. Side kicks. Then some preachy educational stuff working its way into the "just like everyone else except..." mode. Then some matter of fact stuff, but playing back and forth throughout the evolution, not clearly in one phase, the last or the next. Then some of our own stuff, with very limited appeal. In essence, we've gotten to just short of where blacks arguably are now. I say arguably, because I don't follow entertainment news close enough to know if black-focussed, black star, black romance, movies are the box office draws of Richard Gere and Julia Roberts. I suspect that they aren't.

We have had some pretty much all gay movies with limited success. Something black people have had, that I don't think gay people have had yet were the blacksploitation movies of the 1970's. It might be fun to see how a gay themed action film with a touch of romance would do. But would it be too much for the imagination to have a pimpy gay cop single handedly taking on the criminal element while making it with male fashion models? Would we believe a gay gangster who shoots up his enemies and then settles into his Miami penthouse with the adonis gym bunny bringing him a martini?

And the gay audience is fickle. We're not so desperate for gay content that we'll watch just anything to see ourselves in film. In fact, we're damned picky and critical of gay films.

[LeftHander]

20. Bumble Bee is gay....

I'm serious...that transformer had my gaydar going off...

[Withywindle]

22. Did you know that "Dumbledore" is an archaic word for "bumblebee"?

Yes, really. :)

[Touchdown]

30. This is what gets me about Star Trek defenders. Stargate is going further.

In it's idealized world, where people strive to better themselves, eschew greed, and to be as inclusive as the universe demands, they still don't see that a couple of 5 year TV series eclipsed ST for being more forward looking than they claim to be. Six Feet Under and The L Word ( don't really count QAF because it was a bit shallow on the story /character dept). I recall 2 episodes in ST's 5 series, 11 films, 42 year history where gay issues were tackled, and even then they were innuendos and allegories.

There will be a lesbian character on Stargate Universe, premiering in October on Sci FI channel. The producers are going to treat her sexuality as matter of fact, and not as an issue driven plot device. Science Fiction seems to be one of those last bastions of heterodoxy that remains. That they have a claim to have the mantle social inclusion is laughable, compared to other genres. I can count on one hand where there were gay characters in Sci Fi. Battlestar Galactica (new), Torchwood and the aformentioned SG:U. I can't think of any other, and I'm a sci fi fanatic.

It seems premium cable is where gay people live on TV. I think the only HBO show where there wasn't a gay character at least once was The Sopranos (I don't watch Big Love, so I don't know about that one). They were in all these...
The Wire
Oz
Six Feet Under
True Blood
Larry Sanders Show
Curb Your Enthusiasm
Sex in the City
Entourage
Carnivale

Then there's Showtime with QAF and L Word.

I can think of only one action/crime drama film where a gay character was there, and she was killed by Richard Gere. Internal Affairs. Laurie Metcalf played Andy Garcia's partner, and she was out.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

31. The Sopranos had a gay character.

Vito Spatafore was a closeted mobster whose homosexuality was a focal plot device for a couple of seasons.

[Touchdown]

32. Oh' shit. Thanks! I forgot about him.

Yeah. I remember now, the BJ in the truck at the construction site.:hi:

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Weeds and Nurse Jackie on Showtime have gay and lesbian characters.

Of course, though cartoons, The Simpsons and Family Guy have openly gay characters. Bones has an openly bisexual character. Also on HBO, Rome had LOTS of mixed sexual orientations.

OE: I forgot, Buffy had an openly lesbian character.

[DKRC]

34. Missed Firefly

The Top 11 Lesbian/Bi Moments in Sci Fi and Fantasy
by Silver, Contributing Writer
October 14, 2007

<snip>

5. Inara and the Councilor Relax — Firefly (2002)

In the short-lived TV series Firefly, Inara Serra (Morena Baccarin) is a companion — a courtesan whose occupation makes her a member of the aristocracy. Companions choose their own clients and are notoriously picky.

By the time the episode "War Stories" begins, Inara has only been seen with male clients, but then a new client arrives. The mysterious Councilor (Katherine Kendall) is tall, blond and female.

In the privacy of Inara's shuttle, the Councilor tells Inara she just wants to relax and asks Inara not to pretend that she likes her or to put on a show. Inara replies that she usually sees men. When she chooses a woman, Inara adds, it is because the woman is extraordinary.

<snip>

Also worth noting are the reactions of the ship's crew to the Councilor's unexpected arrival. They range from the stereotypical lecherousness of gunslinger Jayne to the surprise and delight of the ship's preacher and the admiration of Kaylee, who calls the two women glamorous.

more at: http://www.afterellen.com/TV/2007/10/topscifimoments?page=0,2

The first of many if the show hadn't been canceled because Joss doesn't shy away from showing you all the textures of his characters as the story unfolds.