If you support a church, synagogue, temple, mosque that is homophobic you are part of the problem

[La Lioness Priyanka]

Honestly, i wish people had the honesty to say that they dont care about gay and gay rights and gay lives but to claim that you "care" about gay rights and keep supporting homophobic institutions, and claiming that these institutions are above criticism. Thats fucking fucked up.

Oh and Deja Q/Hypnotoad was TS'd. Not for being homophobic though. Which ofcourse he was.

[noamnety]

1. I wish I'd left the husband's church sooner

exactly because of that. I was never raised in the church, but after being married I went along for social reasons (never converted, though).

That was a poor moment for me, trying to chose between loyalty to the husband and taking a stand. There was a day though when we walked out of there and I said ... "you know ..." and he looked sheepishly at the floor and said, yeah I know. I never stepped back in the building since then. He kept going for about a year or so, every Sunday. Then one day he came home and said "I need to find a new church." I never found out what the tipping point was for him. He didn't step back in since then either.

My theory is that if a church is wrong on that, they are wrong top to bottom on human rights. I don't believe you can have that kind of bigotry in you and still have any concept of equality, respect and justice.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. its not like i dont want to have a community at a hindu temple

its just that i find their sexism/homophobia to conflict with my principles.

good for your husband and thank you for your support

principles are not easy and always come at a cost.

[Betty Karlson]

24. Amen. I know the feeling your husband had.

Only I did not leave the scene. But then, I don't know how often that church you used to go to had homophobic rants from the pulpit?

[NMMNG]

2. Agreed

And do tell. :evilgrin:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. i am not sure what happened but i hear it was racist. i did hear though

that apparently i should be ts'd as well. you know for pointing out homophobia in various churches. apparently these churches are not homophobic. its just in my head.

[jonnyblitz]

7. he posted a picture of Obama with an oreo cookie over his

face implying mixed race.

[Wilms]

12. I didn't know that an Oreo cookie in that context would imply mixed race.

I recall a time when it meant black on the outside, white (mentality) on the inside. Not complimentary at all, of course.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. yeah i think thats the reason.

[jonnyblitz]

16. yeah i think i was wrong on the mixed race thing. Wilms is

correct i am pretty sure. his definition makes more sense.

[jonnyblitz]

15. you know what, you might be correct now that i think of it.

the meaning of the oreo cookie and i am wrong. i should check urban dictionary. because just acknowledging mixed race didnt seemn that racist to me. but the black on outside white on the inside DOES. i suspect i might be wrong now that you mention it.

[Sentath]

38. Yeah, its not the only food insult

In Native American parlance the insult is 'apple'.

[mitchtv]

4. A little dancing music ,please

Oh and I agree. I am a retired catholic

[NMMNG]

5. ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsCXZczTQXo

[Sapphocrat]

8. TS'd, huh?

Gee, that's even worse than being spat on by an imaginary gay man!

[jonnyblitz]

9. after one racist incident he was gone like that. too bad he wasn't

gone that quickly after just one of his MANY homophobic incidents.

[NMMNG]

11. Just goes to show you where we rank in the scheme of things

:shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

18. i know.

:(

[noamnety]

20. It wasn't just the one post

I know there was the image of Obama that was deleted; I also ran across another thread that he was spamming with oreo pictures of various sorts.

But yes, your point is well taken, it would be nice if bigoted comments against the regular people were treated as seriously as bigoted comments against the party elite, and it would be nice if bigoted comments (and policies!) were treated with equal concern regardless of which group is attacked.

[Toasterlad]

10. That Is AWESOME News

I hated that douche.

Meanwhile, I'm with you 100%. Anyone who donates a penny to the catholic church, or the mormon church, or any other anti-gay cult and then says that they are pro-gay rights is a fucking hypocrite.

[readmoreoften]

21. That is an anti-douche post and I take offense.

Don't demean douches by such a comparison.

[NMMNG]

22. Good point

Douches have a purpose.

[Toasterlad]

25. I Stand Corrected.

[jberryhill]

13. Made that decision more than 20 years ago

Couldn't hang out with people who hated people I love.

[mistertrickster]

17. Agreed. My church, the Episcopal Church, has been torn asunder by this issue.

I say, let the haters leave.

We kept the gay bishops and those of us who stayed met the budget shortfall with extra giving.

The Episcopal Church door is now open.

[juno jones]

19. And as they say

concerning the TS:

Nothing of value was lost.

As for the meat of the OP, It pains me to see the horrors that people with dogma on their side will put others who have committed no crime but been born, female or gay or a of a different physical configuration than the ruling (and fashionable) genotype. It pains me even more to see my liberal friends try to justify their indoctrination to a system, and saddens me to see their pain as they leave it.

There is spiritual life outside of doctrinal religion and it's a hell of a lot more exciting than sitting in church. Trust me, you'll never miss it.

[Betty Karlson]

23. I support my homophobic church by trying

to make it less homophobic. Someone has to do it. Confrontational approaches like the ones you suggest will only work in half the cases. The rest of the cases will require a gradual approach (= slow but steady change over a couple of decades. I pick my battles carefully, and win in most cases.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. would you stay if the church was racist? and what are you doing to change the dynamics

specifically?

[Betty Karlson]

34. See response # 33.

Would I stay if the church was racist? Probably I would. After all, it would have been the church I grew up with. So I would know all the little dynamics that one can use to change it. That would give me a better position than outsiders have to change things.

(Incidentally, I know there are a few members of my community with xenophobic and / or racist tendencies. But I consider the homophobia a more pressing matter, because the racism is declining anyway and the homophobia isn't.)

[racaulk]

29. That sounds like a Log Cabin Republican type of rationale.

They may be trying to make the GOP less homophobic by working from the inside, but the Republican Party will still benefit from their money and votes over the short term which they will then use to further divide our country, bankrupt our nation, and demonize, marginalize, and scapegoat gay people for all of the nation's ills along the way.

Likewise, while you may be trying to make your church less homophobic by working from the inside, your church will still benefit from your money, presence, and support over the short term. Support given with reservation is support nonetheless. Your church will continue to use your support to pursue its homophobic agenda, in whatever form that takes.

Whether your strategy will work over the long term, I cannot say. But in the short term, you are still part of the problem.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. i still want to know what people actually do, to change things from the inside

do they protest their church, write letters to whomever is of importance, what does one do besides shake ones head when they disagree?

[Tyo]

31. Find a church that believes what you believe

Which is more important, your relationship with your god and doing his will as you see it or continuing to validate with your presence an institution that you know distorts and twists god's message to you?

[Betty Karlson]

33. For instance, there is the synod of 2004

I wrote ten page letters to several of the delegates who had convened to discuss the question:

should we allow individual communities in our church, to decide for themselves if and to what extend gay people should be allowed to ask for a blessing on their union or marriage?

(The question, itself, was the result of years of carefull formula negotiotions by preparation comittees. In short, the suggestion was to NOT make a binding decision on it, nationally, but rather to leave the question to all communities, to discuss it at leasure.)

By the smallest possible majority, the delegates agreed to say yes. And several communities chose to expand marriage possibilities for gay and lesbian couples.

Now, my own community may not feel any inclination to allow for such blessings. But it nevertheless chose to stay a member of a church that would allow it to change it position any day it wants to. And my minister, who was a delegate to the synod, was that one vote that helped to get the measure the 2/3rd majority it needed. When I asked him about it later, he said: "well, there was that letter of yours..."

That's what I mean by: I pick my battles carefully.

[Betty Karlson]

35. I think you overestimate

the amount of agenda my community has, homophobic or otherwise. And I don't mind being part of the problem, as long as I get to be the part with the solution.

[DeSwiss]

27. Co-signed!!!!!

- I was born a PK and was immediately totally immersed into religion for the first half of my life. And even though now I would never, ever again believe in the silliness that is man's concept of god, I know their words better than most of them do.

Luke 6:35-37 {KJV} "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven..."

Roman 3:20-23 {KJV} "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

So as we can see, they were told DIRECTLY AND POINT BLANK not to judge others. And that no matter what good they may think about themselves, ALL HAVE SINNED, THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. And yet still they judge, and continue to directly disobey their god. So for my money, that is a formula for an EXPRESS TICKET DIRECTLY TO HELL, NO STOPS. They are directly rejecting a direct commandment from Jesus not to judge. They are, in effect saying: FUCK YOU JESUS!!! Right!?!?!

Now, if I still believed in this nonsense I'd say that all these "so-called Christians" who discriminate against anyone and specifically gay people, they are going straight to hell. No passing "GO" to collect $200. No stops to go to the restroom before they hit the highway.....

BUT STRAIGHT TO HELL.....

K&R

on edit: spelling

[racaulk]

28. K&R!

As someone who was born into the Southern Baptist church and GLADLY left once my sexual orientation starting to become apparent, I wholeheartedly agree with this OP. Very well said!

And as for Deja Q, good fucking riddance! I've been waiting for that TS for a long time.

:woohoo:

[David Zephyr]

32. Kick.

Sorry I didn't catch this in time for an enthusiastic Rec.

[SacredCow]

36. Religion and homosexuality is such a touchy subject.....

In my city, there are 2 churches that seem to be totally accepting: MCC and UU. UU is one that I don't know all that much about, but I refuse to be involved with MCC for 2 reasons: 1. The backstabbing and nastiness in this particular church (can't say if it's typical of all MCC churches) is seriously disturbing, and I have a particular contempt for fellow LGBT people who make great efforts to fuck over other LGBT people for sport. 2. I don't like the notion of a "gay church," much like Calpurnia from "To Kill a Mockingbird" didn't particularly subscribe to the notion of "black" and "white" churches to worship the same God.

I'm not a member, but I am heavily involved with a Methodist church and am considering joining. My significant other is the choir director and I play guitar, bass, and sometimes drums for the choir. We're 2 of 4 gay men in the choir and have never had any negative experience from the pastor, congregation, etc... In fact, just this past Sunday was our annual Christmas Cantata performance, and my s/o got a standing ovation as he walked down the aisle after the service. The Methodist's church's motto is "Open hearts, Open minds," and homosexuals are welcome to be members of the church and participate in all aspects of worship (communion etc.). However, according to their global policy, they can not perform gay marriages (not that it would do any good in most places) and homosexuals can not become pastors. So, there is good and bad. But all in all- I feel respected in this congregation, and that's worth quite a bit.

[TexasObserver]

37. Recommend

[marginlized]

39. Of Course

Its amazing how people I know simply don't get their complicity in what their churches are doing to society. It doesn't matter that you socialize with your friends on Sunday or they do a nice mid week coffee and cookies prayer meeting.

I try to point out what the organization is doing and their response is "that's not me", "but what can I do?", "so you're gonna take on the whole church?", or strangest of all "they don't represent my faith". If you're faith is not there, then why are you going?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. that last question really is excellent

"If you're faith is not there, then why are you going?"