Do you make the difference between MSM and Gay?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

And when i say you i mean strictly LGBT people.

I know I do. Gay is a chosen identity whereas men who have sex with men is just a descriptive for sexual behavior. I am not talking of gay as a sexual orientation that is chosen, but of gay as political identity.

When you think of people like Ted Haggard, do you make the difference in your head as to who they are?

I know that the larger society doesnt "see" the difference, but to me it's huge. To me its akin to the difference between being female and being a feminist.

I'd like to hear your opinions/feelings/thoughts on this

[TheWraith]

1. I don't think it would be accurate to call being gay a chosen identity...

It reflects a definition of underlying sexual behavior quite distinct from a person's chosen behavior. "Men who have sex with men," however, is a case of situational sexuality unrelated to orientation. That doesn't change their orientation any more than a gay man who chooses to engage in sex with women is straight.

[FreeState]

6. According to the APA Identity is part of sexual orientation

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx#

What is sexual orientation?

Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person's sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions. Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. However, sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories: heterosexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of the other sex), gay/lesbian (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of one's own sex), and bisexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to both men and women). This range of behaviors and attractions has been described in various cultures and nations throughout the world. Many cultures use identity labels to describe people who express these attractions. In the United States the most frequent labels are lesbians (women attracted to women), gay men (men attracted to men), and bisexual people (men or women attracted to both sexes). However, some people may use different labels or none at all.

Sexual orientation is distinct from other components of sex and gender, including biological sex (the anatomical, physiological, and genetic characteristics associated with being male or female), gender identity (the psychological sense of being male or female),* and social gender role (the cultural norms that define feminine and masculine behavior).

Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment, and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support, and ongoing commitment. Therefore, sexual orientation is not merely a personal characteristic within an individual. Rather, one's sexual orientation defines the group of people in which one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling romantic relationships that are an essential component of personal identity for many people.

[TheWraith]

27. But there's plenty of people who deny their sexual orientation.

Those people aren't less gay because they don't identify as it. Obviously free will plays a substantial part in human sexuality and sexual behavior, and one can to a certain degree "choose" their sexual interests and activities. But that doesn't alter the underlying biological drives and brain chemistry that tell a gay man he wants to have sex with Brad Pitt, not Angelina Jolie. To that end, a gay man is still a gay man even if he spends his life never once admitting to himself that he's gay.

[marginlized]

9. By "situational sexuality" you mean...

extraordinary circumstances like being in prison? Or that are extremely infrequent and/or accompanied by induced diminished capacity, i.e. drugs? We have a societal bias towards making the one time anomalous event into an orientation. I see that akin to the one-drop-of-blood notions of race from yesteryear.

But what if the situation is one that the guy is deliberately seeking on a regular basis? It may be that the attraction is about the rush of illicit or threatening circumstances rather than strictly gender. Is that what you had in mind?

[TheWraith]

26. I mean any circumstances that result in a person behaving in a manner contrary to their orientation.

Prison is the most typical example: even most Kinsey 0 people, when sequestered away from the opposite sex for very long periods of time, will engage in same-sex behavior for pleasure. But the phrase "situational sexuality" (or more accurately, "situational sexual behavior") also applies to other cases where people engage in sex that normally would go against their natural orientation. For instance, prostitutes who service one gender but in private life prefer the other. Or, a large number male pornographic actors are normally straight, but do "gay for pay." It's also not uncommon for there to be same-sex experiences in a person's early exploration of sexuality.

These situations are what's usually referred to scientifically when one talks about "men who have sex with men." Though you could if you wanted flip it around also and view a closeted gay man sleeping with a woman as an example of situational sexuality.

There's also various sub-terms for different behaviors. For instance when someone is primarily straight but periodically engages in gay sex for fun, the popular new term is "heteroflexible." I myself would fall under this category. "Gay for pay," single-gender environments, and "pseudo-homosexuality" are all other examples of situational sexuality which could fall under the heading of "men who have sex with men," but none of those people would qualify as truly "gay."

[soleft]

2. Chosen Identity?

I didn't choose nothing. I brought my orientation onto the planet. As far as I can tell, Ted Haggard is a gay man in tragic self denial.

And what's MSM?

[ThomCat]

11. MSM is an abreviation for Men who have Sex with Men

[marginlized]

3. You may want to clarify that use of "choice"

I take it you're not talking about orientation, but political identification.

It's often true that the guys doing the MWHSWM nasty in the bushes, in public johns, etc. don't identify as gay. They've got their wives and kids to prove it. And I don't see why they should be "gay". After all, I prefer my men courageous, forthright and honest. Not, you know, closeted hypocrites.

The above not including honest bisexuals of course.

But the reluctance to identify just comes from our culture that turns all things "gay" into a "that's so gay" insult. Why would anyone want to catch bullets if they don't have to? I've seen plenty discussions that claim its just the word, and we just need new words like "men who have sex with men". It's probably just going to be as difficult for some people no matter what the terminology.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. yes, you are right. i figured people would get it, but i'll clarify none the less

[xchrom]

5. Yes.

I've engaged in straight sex -- I was still gay.
Some straight men have fooled around with me -- they were still straight.
And I've fooled around with bi people.

[donco6]

7. No.

But I also don't believe anyone is exclusively anything. Men who have sex with men are just expressing that part of their sexuality. Some men never have sex with anyone but other men, but not all of them. I'm just not that black and white.

I guess I see MSM as a description of something taking place at a given time, whereas Gay is what you identify as. No?

[Smarmie Doofus]

8. I do but the rest of the culture does not.

>>>>When you think of people like Ted Haggard, do you make the difference in your head as to who they are?>>>>>

"Gay" was coined... more or less.... to distinguish the self-identified and politically aware from the mere "homosexual". As we all know... language changes. "Gay" no longer means what it did in the seventies.

Perhaps it's time for new nomenclature.

[JackBeck]

10. Absolutely.

Not everyone that has sexual contact with someone of the same gender identifies as Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual.

Many men of color I have met identify as Same Gender Loving (SGL) because they feel Gay is strictly a white identity, due to (but not entirely) feeling completely marginalized and ignored during our struggle and fight for equality. It's complex and nuanced, especially when you toss HIV/AIDS into the overarching historical context of our rather young movement.

Also, I know many Queer people who would bristle at being referred to as Gay or Lesbian. For many of them, they reject the mainstream identity of what it means to be Lesbian or Gay. If you call yourself Gay or Lesbian, you must look and act a certain way, and that doesn't fit into how they identify.

Don't even get me started about how the CDC still counts within the MSM epidemiology Transgender women who have sex with men. More so, this is another sexual pairing that tends to make people bonkers. How do you characterize the MEN who have sex with Transgender women? I've talked to Gay men recently who still can't bring themselves to categorize these sexual relationships as heterosexual, even when the transgender woman identifies as "heterosexual".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. thank for weighing in jack. your last para is particularly interesting

i didnt realize the cdc counts transwomen as men

[JackBeck]

21. Isn't that amazing?

That was completely off my radar until I heard about that about six months ago.

And even though my work doesn't focus on prevention, it was also pointed out that there is absolutely no prevention materials that uses transgender imagery (a trans woman, for example, putting a condom on her penis). With transgender women of color accounting for almost 60% of all new infections, all of this reminds me of how absent the government has consistently been when getting information out to other communities.

[ThomCat]

12. I see the distinction that you are making.

But I don't think we have a succinct language for it.

Haggard is gay. Or maybe Bisexual. Who knows. :shrug: But that is only his sexual orientation, not is sexual culture.

His sexual culture is very definitely, very obviously entirely straight. He only identifies as straight and he only wants to identify as straight, no matter what kind of sex life he really has.

The problem is we don't really have a vocabulary to discuss all of this: sexual orientation and sexual culture. You could through in gender expression and identification issues in there too and we would really hit some language barriers. :(

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. i think its largely because we see in black/white and the world exists in gray

[closeupready]

13. This is kind of a complicated one for a forum like this, but...

yes, I guess I do. Gay men are a subset of MSM, a larger group - some of whom consider themselves bisexual or even straight, but are seeking sexual release for energy and who do not have available female partners.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. this is somewhat how i see it too

[Unvanguard]

14. Yes, though not in deference to hypocritical closet cases like Ted Haggard

but rather to let men who acknowledge having sex with men be able to do so without necessarily identifying as G or B.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. true, i should have mentioned that in my distinction as well. a lot of out

people of color, dont neccesarily identify as gay

[swimboy]

15. I'm really happy to see this issue raised.

I definitely make a distinction, but I am not sure that both terms fit into a hierarchy. The differences are very clear to me but I don't think either category fits within the other. There are so many ways of approaching the way each of us defines him or herself (choosing how we define how we are, not choosing how we are). So much of life is complicated and so much effort in our larger culture goes into trying to shoehorn everything into one of two disparate categories, of bringing forth a successful analysis that boils down to false dichotomy. Everything isn't one thing or another.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. "Everything isn't one thing or another"

those words are so true. in general we are unconfortable with non-dichotomies, like bisexual, trans folk etc

[donheld]

22. I recently came across a group on Yahoo for "ClosetshutM2M

They have 11,000 members. Yes there's a difference in Gay and Permanently closeted fools.

[Toasterlad]

23. It Is Counter-Productive To Pretend That Gay People We Don't Like Aren't Gay.

There are good and bad straight people. There are good and bad gay people. There are good and bad PEOPLE.

Making distinctions between people who do or don't "identify" as gay only invites enemies to drive home the "gay is a choice" bullshit.

Ted Haggard is an asshole. The fact that he's gay has nothing to do with his assholery.

[VaYallaDawg]

24. Assholery!! Love it!!

:rofl:

But, maybe in Ted's case, he thinks it should be "assholiness" ??

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. there are plent of gay people i dont like, but they are gay identified (barebacking sullivan)

i just dont think haggerty is gay. i think he is an msm. i do think theres a difference.

[Toasterlad]

29. I'm Afraid We'll Have to Disagree On This One

The gay community is already inundated with way too much unnecessary labeling. That kind of thing invites division, rather than acceptance. A gay man is a man who is sexually attracted (exclusively) to other men. I am a gay man, and (presumably) Ted Haggard is a gay man. The fact that he is closeted (and possibly self-loathing) and I am not doesn't make him any less, or me any more, "gay".

We are not going to make it any easier for closeted people to accept themselves if we ostracize them with derogatory terms. Ted Haggard may be an asshole NOW, but it would be better for all of us if he accepted himself and came out of the closet. Maybe then he could start working on NOT being an asshole.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. The gay community is already inundated with way too much unnecessary labeling

Could you define that? i find the gay community has defined itself as it needs. Which definitions/labeling would you choose to drop?

[Toasterlad]

32. Questioning and Queer Come to Mind

You're either in the closet or you're not. The kind of sexual experimentation common among young adults is not a sexual orientation, and it should not be considered one. The struggle to figure out what you are is a common experience of ALL people, and does not merit distinction for people who ultimately realize they're gay. You're either gay (or bisexual) or you're not.

But I'm referring more to this trend of labeling behavior as an "identity". Some people "identify" as animals, which is flat-out ludicrous...but no more so than those who "identify" as straight but are attracted to the same sex.

None of this would bother me (hey, whatever floats your boat) except that all this "identity" stuff adds fuel to the "choice" meme, which hurts the fight for equality.

[TheWraith]

28. Well said.

No offense to Pri, but I think this splits a hair that isn't really there. If a person's drive to engage in homosexuality is so powerfully compelling over the course of their life that they behave the way Haggard did (and probably still does) then it's a behavior pattern that defies an attempt to describe it as anything other than being gay.

[dickthegrouch]

30. I had similar questions with Queer and Gay

after finding the distinctions in what I read into the characterizations in Larry Mitchell's book "The Faggots and their Friends between Revolutions".

I definitely see a difference between politicized gay men and the rest of the bar patrons but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to consider them just MSMs.

It has long bothered me that the majority are not politicized and I've often wondered what it will take to improve the ratio.

Great discussion. Thank you

[sui generis]

33. absolutely

Someone who is "gay" participates in the culture, identifies with the culture.

On MSM though . . . - somebody who's curious or otherwise not normally aimed towards the same gender shouldn't qualify as "MSM" either. I tend to think of MSM as opportunists - they don't want strings attached to their identities, by culture or by relationship. It's all about getting their rocks off - which isn't really a bad thing as long as they're not being destructive or self-destructive.

Are there WSW's? :P

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. there are WSW's but its not as widely used since women tend to more comfortable

wiht the bisexual identiy that men who are not part of gay culture.

also, MSM was created during the era of AIDS and there was no need to really creating the WSM label