Yes, I expect more from liberals, progressives and Democrats on DU than I do politicians

[La Lioness Priyanka]

I was thinking about DU and what bothers me about it. I understand why Obama or Clinton or whomever else has to dither about gay rights. Their careers depend on it. I believe that they don't necessarily even believe what they are saying, but that in order to win the election, they are going with popular opinion. Mostly, I don't think politicians say what they mean, they say what will likely get them elected.

I don't understand it from activists, liberals & progressives who are not looking to get elected.

To me, there is a right and a wrong when it comes to bigotry, and a very clear black and white. not just with gay/queer issues, but with all bias related issues.


When it comes to issues of equal rights, stereotyping, bias, hate speech, people who incite and encourage bigotry, there is a right and wrong. I expect liberals, du'ers, progressives to come down on the side of marginalized groups.

When they don't, i take it much more personally than I do with politicians because i believe they mean what they say. It's not like someone is being anti-gay or anti-muslim or anti-female, because of the votes involved. It's just because they believe so.


At the end of the day, that's why it bothers me more when du'ers are not stronger allies to marginalized groups.

[ZombieHorde]

1. I mostly agree with your OP, but I don't automatically support marginalized groups.

Some groups deserve to be marginalized, such as the hardcore white supremacist group, Church of Creativity.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. i have never heard groups like that referred to as marginalized

but i see your point.

i meant marginalized as is commonly used (race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation etc)

[ZombieHorde]

4. Oh, I see. Forget my complaint. nt

[xchrom]

2. Moderate, strong party loyalists have been a learning experience for me.

They're democrats -- not liberal or progressive.

Liberal or progressive can fall within the democratic party but
That doesn't make moderates either.

[roguevalley]

5. I support gays and gay rights because it is right and just and because

my parents, both deceased would expect me to do so. Justice matters.

[xchrom]

12. Lots of moderates support us outside of election years.

Then they see us as a liability.

[yardwork]

15. Thanks. I try to support all human rights, just as a matter of course. Sounds like you are the same.

[Kali]

6. you are in some ways more tolerant than me

I would like to see some LEADERSHIP in the politicians. I UNDERSTAND the pandering, like you say but wouldn't it be something to have SOMEBODY in politics LEAD? even just a LITTLE?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. i think there is leadership with some politicians, just not at the presidential level

however, i expect much more leadership from activists and from people who post on du

[Kali]

18. true some at the sub pres level

and I apologize for missing the point - I mean I got the point but my comment was on the tangent

is there more that somebody like myself can do here? I hardly ever leave the lounge so while I was aware of some of the things being discussed I confess to putting a lot of it into "well it is a political discussion site" I felt a similar kick to the gut when prop 8 passed - I mean it wasn't so much of a surprise our own idiotic prop passed here in AZ, but I have a stereotype of California that it has a liberal bias over all. To have that kind of unfair shit go down on the same night we elected a BLACK man to the presidency in this country...

it was such a "big step forward, big step backwards" moment

I confess I haven't been very active in the discussions after that, I saw some of Obama's actions as you do - politics and disappointing - I saw some of the discord here on DU as political. I never saw the "day of banning" or most of who disappeared for what reason - the few I knew about seemed to be getting tossed for crap that was happening in the lounge so I was always kind of lost on the possible real unfairness and shutting down of discussion.

What can I do to if not lead, at least set a better example for other DUers?

[RevStPatrick]

8. Well said.

I suppose it takes all types to make a world. Or a discussion forum.

[texshelters]

9. Perhaps it is helpful to consider

that the Clinton and Obama perspective on progressive issues, i.e. gay rights, has a lot of support among Democrats, as ridiculous as it might seem to you. They did, after all, win an election or two.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[ruggerson]

10. The facts don't back up that assertion

The latest polling nationwide showso that 57% of Democrats support marriage equality. Other recent polls have the number close to 2/3 rds.

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1920

Since Obama still officially opposes marriage equality (though he has recently said he is "struggling" with the issue), the evidence demonstrates that he is out of step with Democrats nationwide on this issue.

[LiberalAndProud]

13. When did he say he is struggling with the issue?

Having read that Rev. Creech explained Obama's bigotry to him, maybe he had an impact. I appreciate the struggle. It is not easy to relinquish long-held, religiously (and politically) fortified beliefs. I rate this a big positive.

[ruggerson]

14. Here you go

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/barack-obama-gay-marriage-struggle-dadt-12462217

Personally I believe this is all poll driven. I don't think he ever personally opposed marriage equality. I think he thought (up until now) that he couldn't get elected, if he supported it. As has been the case with many politicians. Whatever pulls him over the finish line is fine with me.

[MNBrewer]

25. so political positions have no real meaning?

other than to be used cynically for the purpose of grasping the levers of power?

[ruggerson]

26. most politicians

aren't courageous enough, especially when it comes to our issues, womenn's issues, reproductive issues - many try to walk the tightrope. I long ago accepted that Obama was not going to be a fearless crusader for us. That way, when he does the right thing, I'm pleasantly surprised. And I've been surprised recently, which is a good thing. One thing he does is he listens and hears us. Our advocates have some access to him and he listens.

[LiberalAndProud]

28. This may be apropos.

I walked into a Senate debate and listened to Senator Robertson speak very ardently in favor of a certain bill -- the content of it eludes me now. The time for the roll call came. Impressed with the Virginia senator's passion, I cast an "aye" vote when my turn came. When the call got to Robertson, he voted "no."

I couldn't believe my ears. I went up to him afterward and said, "Senator, I just listened to your speech on this issue, and you spoke strongly in favor of it. Then you voted 'no.' I'm confused." Robertson smiled at me. "Well, Senator," he said, "in my state the people are evenly divided on this bill. To those who favor it, I send my speech. To those who are opposed. I send my vote."

"Thank you very much," I said to him. As I walked away, I added to myself, "I think I might be able to make it here after all."

Edward M. Kennedy
True Compass

[yardwork]

17. Obama was in favor of legalizing marriage for GLBTQ when he was an Illinois politician.

His position on equal marriage suddenly changed 180 degrees when he declared his candidacy for president.

His position on this is not long-held. He's been all over the map on this position.

[LiberalAndProud]

21. all over the map

Yea, upon reflection I knew that already. I will admit I cannot fathom his motivations or his actual convictions, given his (and I really really hate to use this word) ... waffling.

[yardwork]

22. Huge amounts of money are being spent by the Catholic Church, Mormon Church,

and a network of fundamentalist Protestant Churches. They are spending millions of dollars to keep legislators across the nation from voting for equal rights for GLBTQ. These organizations have an enormous amount of influence and power over politicians. They can destroy a politician. They can ensure that a politician is not elected. I would not be surprised if they are also using blackmail - they can afford to hire investigators.

We see the impact of their influence all over the country - California, Maine, Arkansas, Florida, most recently Maryland. I have no doubt that they exert massive influence on the White House and Congress.

Why do these organizations care so much about stopping equal rights? Simple. Their power and privilege is based in a patriarchal world view that does not allow for equal rights for women, ethnic minorities, or GLBTQ. Allow people to love freely and pretty soon they are getting all kinds of radical ideas.

Passively waiting around for more people to recognize that it's ok to let gay people get married is not going to move equality forward. Our only hope is to fight back by using our own power and influence to insist that politicians do the right thing. This is why many GLBTQ people and our allies are refusing to donate to the Democratic Party as a whole, or to individual politicians who fail to vote for equal rights. We are reserving our money (and in many cases, our support) for those individual politicians who vote for equality. This is our only way to combat the highly organized, wealthy adversaries.

[texshelters]

24. What facts

that Obama won an election, and so did Clinton.

Are you aware that poll on race or homosexuality are inherently inaccurate because people don't want to sound like a bigot and thus hide their true feelings?

And you ignored nearly half the nation. Only 23% of Republicans support Marriage inequality, and like it or not, Obama cares what they think.

Besides, There is little to indicate that Obama want marriage equality and only pressure from Democrats who favor marriage equality will make a difference.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[ruggerson]

27. regardless of his true feelings on the issue

he will continue to be pressured, as he should be. No one is handing us our rights. We're fighting, inch by inch, for every single one of them. And if you're implying that someone cannot be elected President while being publicly in favor of marriage equality, I wholeheartedly disagree.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. That would make sense if they ran vocally on the issue

but both when running mention it only in strongly supportive terms, Obama called himself a Fierce Advocate for gay rights, no less. Perhaps that is what won him the election, not the waffle cone he has served up since getting the job.
When Clinton ran, he was the first Democratic Presidential nominee to mention gay people at all, in anyway. Did you know that? If other Democrats would like civil rights to remain frozen at the first mention, they can just piss off, that is absurd, not just conservative, but regressive.

[yardwork]

16. Your sarcasm directed at a disenfranchised minority is duly noted.

[Danger Mouse]

19. That isn't helpful.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. yes, i have considered this. i am a social scientist and have far above average intelligence

i still find it disappointing for the very reasons i mentioned. bigotry and bias are disappointing to me.

[Maven]

23. And what is YOUR perspective on the matter?

That's what the OP is about.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

32. Who is the "Name removed" who keeps bouncing old threads here?

That's strange!

[Duncan Grant]

29. Perhaps it is helpful to consider

that my money, time, and vote won't be given to any candidate who doesn't support the full civil and cultural equality of LGBT people.

The person responsible for my hope and change -- is me.

Thanks for stopping by the LGBT forum.

[Deep13]

30. Spot on as usual, Pri. nt

[Marrah_G]

33. I wish I could recommend

Instead a kick will have to do!