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The End of Gay Culture (Andrew Sullivan from The New Republic)

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kweerwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 09:39 PM
Original message
The End of Gay Culture (Andrew Sullivan from The New Republic)
Slowly but unmistakably, gay culture is ending. You see it beyond the poignant transformation of P-town: on the streets of the big cities, on university campuses, in the suburbs where gay couples have settled, and in the entrails of the Internet. In fact, it is beginning to dawn on many that the very concept of gay culture may one day disappear altogether. By that, I do not mean that homosexual men and lesbians will not exist--or that they won't create a community of sorts and a culture that sets them in some ways apart. I mean simply that what encompasses gay culture itself will expand into such a diverse set of subcultures that "gayness" alone will cease to tell you very much about any individual. The distinction between gay and straight culture will become so blurred, so fractured, and so intermingled that it may become more helpful not to examine them separately at all.

For many in the gay world, this is both a triumph and a threat. It is a triumph because it is what we always dreamed of: a world in which being gay is a nonissue among our families, friends, and neighbors. But it is a threat in the way that all loss is a threat. For many of us who grew up fighting a world of now-inconceivable silence and shame, distinctive gayness became an integral part of who we are. It helped define us not only to the world but also to ourselves. Letting that go is as hard as it is liberating, as saddening as it is invigorating. And, while social advance allows many of us to contemplate this gift of a problem, we are also aware that in other parts of the country and the world, the reverse may be happening. With the growth of fundamentalism across the religious world--from Pope Benedict XVI's Vatican to Islamic fatwas and American evangelicalism--gayness is under attack in many places, even as it wrests free from repression in others. In fact, the two phenomena are related. The new anti-gay fervor is a response to the growing probability that the world will one day treat gay and straight as interchangeable humans and citizens rather than as estranged others. It is the end of gay culture--not its endurance--that threatens the old order. It is the fact that, across the state of Massachusetts, "gay marriage" has just been abolished. The marriage licenses gay couples receive are indistinguishable from those given to straight couples. On paper, the difference is now history. In the real world, the consequences of that are still unfolding.

Quite how this has happened (and why) are questions that historians will fight over someday, but certain influences seem clear even now--chief among them the HIV epidemic. Before aids hit, a fragile but nascent gay world had formed in a handful of major U.S. cities. The gay culture that exploded from it in the 1970s had the force of something long suppressed, and it coincided with a more general relaxation of social norms. This was the era of the post-Stonewall New Left, of the Castro and the West Village, an era where sexuality forged a new meaning for gayness: of sexual adventure, political radicalism, and cultural revolution.

The fact that openly gay communities were still relatively small and geographically concentrated in a handful of urban areas created a distinctive gay culture. The central institutions for gay men were baths and bars, places where men met each other in highly sexualized contexts and where sex provided the commonality. Gay resorts had their heyday--from Provincetown to Key West. The gay press grew quickly and was centered around classified personal ads or bar and bath advertising. Popular culture was suffused with stunning displays of homosexual burlesque: the music of Queen, the costumes of the Village People, the flamboyance of Elton John's debut; the advertising of Calvin Klein; and the intoxication of disco itself, a gay creation that became emblematic of an entire heterosexual era. When this cultural explosion was acknowledged, when it explicitly penetrated the mainstream, the results, however, were highly unstable: Harvey Milk was assassinated in San Francisco and Anita Bryant led an anti-gay crusade. But the emergence of an openly gay culture, however vulnerable, was still real.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20051024&s=sullivan102405

I'm not a big fan of Andrew Sullivan's, but he does raise some interesting points ... like when he says, "There is no single gay identity anymore, let alone a single look or style or culture." I've noticed that, too, but where Sullivan sees it as "the end of gay culture," I tend to view it as the "hyphenation" of gay culture; ie. no one is "just" gay anymore ... we can be gay Republicans, lesbian moms, transgender accountants, etc., etc. I'm not sure that's so much "assimilation" as it is incorporating our core identies into all parts of our lives.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. I have long believed that the generic identities
that seemed to characterize the openly gay population in the 1980's was a community going through adolescence together - trying to find themselves. As a community we have, in many ways, accomplished that goal, though there is obviously some distance to go in this journey. But if the ultimate yearning is to love and be loved, then that involves being an individual. . .and it just means that we are maturing into a community which can make our commitments in life real and manageable on our own terms.
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Gildor Inglorion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Hi, kevinbegoode...welcome to DU!
:hi:
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Let me join my friend Gildor in welcoming you!
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kweerwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Very well stated!
And welcome to DU, kevinbgoode! May all your posts be as articulate and well-said as that one!
:hi:
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. gosh..thanks ...!
and I'm glad to be here. . .you guys really do such a great job of covering so much.

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Gildor Inglorion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Andrew Sullivan is a waste of protoplasm...
even when he's right, he's wrong. If his sorry ass had lived in 1930's Germany, he'd have started a fervent "Jews for Hitler" campaign. And the fate he met would have been deserved.
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm certainly no fan of Sullivan, but this peice looks interesting....
I'll check it out at the library (too much work to register)
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Uncle Roy Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. My friend Chittand Scheinola II has an account there...
and I have reason to believe he won't mind if you use it too. He's a generous fellow (and kinda cute, too, if your tastes run to overweight 57-year-olds) Anyway:

username: chittand
password: scheinola2

log out when you are done.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. The end of the ghetto

evokes nostalgia.

As Hannah Arendt says, people later yearn for the human warmth that the closeness of ghetto life gave- but choose to forget how devoid of light and defined by fear and poverty and claustrophobia and trauma the experience also was.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. Is it the assimilation of gays into society
or the intimidation of gays and becoming invisible again?

How many live in the world of Andrew? Talk shows, public apprearances, writing articles?

He is a bright guy and a clear and concise writer. I am proud of his presence on the world's stage, but his experience may be somewhat sheltered from the realities of living in today's climate of growing and incredibley vocal and extremley vitriolic intolerance.

If there ever was a time(other than pre- WWII Germany) for a seriousness of purpose, vigilance about human rights, and the need for a strong, united, community and a clear voice prepared to defend our truths, it is now.

Yea, maybe the bars are fewer, the parties smaller, the after Bette, Divine Miss M. parties gone, Donna Summers only on the "Hits of.." CD's, but you know we have to adapt. I hope we can.

The internet should be tool for bringing us together and uniting--whether that will happen I am not so sure. I keep looking.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. I agree, bluedawg.
We aren't there yet. I think what is evaporating is the moment of relative rainbow conformity that happened in the 90s. But the rainbow didn't have a big enough arch to encompass all of us.

I don't think gay culture's going anywhere. I think it's undergoing a generational transformation. What we need is a coalition of queers to fight for our human rights. Maybe even universal human rights. We are not a people with singular needs. The needs of the leather community is much different than the needs of gay families. The needs of transmen are different then the needs of gay men. But we need to work together. We are all so beaten down that sometimes we don't want the spotlight to shine on the needs of other members of our communities. We say, "The needs of trannies! Our own needs haven't been met. Once we get ours, we'll help THEM get THEIRS". We say, "The traditional gays have gotten plenty-- so what if they can't adopt-- what about transgendered youth!"

In my opinion, we need to stop this. Quickly. There is no reason why 60 year old gay men can't fight to support young polyamorous queers whose primary beef if the repression of sexuality. And there's no reason that young polyamorous queers can't (instead of mocking the idea of gay marriage) say, 'Well, maybe it would be better if there were socialized medicine in America, but since there ISN'T and it ISN'T ON THE HORIZON, let's ALSO FIGHT FOR MARRIAGE so that the 70 year old lesbian down the block who wants to visit her lifelong partner in the cancer ward can do so.

Sometimes I think we act like it's a zero sum game. If marriage-oriented gays get their same-sex marriage, then polyamorous queers won't be allowed to form their own romantic alliances anymore. If we divert our attention to LGBT seniors (which I am really passionate about these days) then LGBT youth will suffer.

It's not a zero sum game. We need to support each other.

(thank you for indulging my moralistic rant)
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
10. Andrew Sullivan is such a melodramatic queen
This article aside, I'm thinking of whenever I catch him on Maher's show--he's given to such wide-eyed histrionics, it's embarrassing (and that accent changing from British back to American when he gets excited, it's just too silly).

Anyway, as usual, Andrew has a theory and he's painting it for us using the broadest brush he can find. This reminds me of that historian who made waves after the Soviet Union broke up by saying it was the end of history. In an equally overbroad observation, Andrew Sullivan thinks that all gay men in the 1970's hung out in bars and bathhouse in major metropolitan areas, and that was their "culture". He's guilty of the same BS that people like Jerry Falwell are when they portray 'the gay lifestyle' as identical to a gay pride parade.

The culture he's describing did exist, yes, for a relatively small number of people who made it famous by being loud about it; while the vast majority just lived their lives, in the suburbs and the small towns and the rural areas. Most of us were never a part of "gay culture". The culture he's talking about was as much a media creation as anything else--"oo look at those scandalous gay people daring to gather openly in public!".

To me, gay culture is stronger than ever, because now it's about political power and reaching for equality and not thinking twice about being who we are. Those urban enclaves are still there, Andrew, and in case you hadn't noticed they're bigger and more flamboyant than ever. But gay "culture" is spreading to palces it never existed before. I live in a small town in the midwest and we've got a PFLAG chapter here now, for god's sake. I'll gladly take that over the 'good old' gay ghettos of San Francisco and New York, when that was all there was.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm living in the East Bay
and I come into SF on a fairly regular basis--I work here, my BF lives here, etc

We sometimes go to the Castro but I much prefer to hang out in my town or in my area

it's easier, there's parking and certainly lots of things to do; and I can be myself--my BF and I hold hands in public places, I might lean over and give him a kiss on the cheek or whatever

Gay culture, if there ever was a thing, is moving out of the Castro and West Hollywood into the mainstream.

We are the mainstream now and I think that's a great thing!
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I used to live in Oakland/Berkeley
This was back in the early 1980's, and even then I rarely made trips to 'the city'. The East Bay was a cool place and much less frantic than San Francisco (I hope it still is!). I eventually moved to SF and lived there for seven years, but my partner and I didn't hang out in the Castro except on occasion; South of Market was our place, we lived there and went to the bars there. So back when Miss Andrew was in knee pants, I was already well away from official gay culture, even though its West Coast capitol, Castro Street, was a mile away from me.

Andrew Sullivan makes me so mad, I just wanna smack him; unfortunately I also consider him really hot, physically, so I wanna f*ck him at the same! :crazy:
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bigscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. not a big Sullivan fan
but it seems to me the only blurring of the lines occurs superficially. Gay stereotypes abound (Will n Grace? Somewhat insulting how needy Will is, dontcha think?). While I work in the bluest city in the bluest state, I live in rural CT. I would no sooner fly a rainbow flag off my house than walk hand in hand with my partner down the street there. I am not a little guy but there are a lot of people who will never accept homosexuality and would get great pleasure out of causing harm to a "faggot". To some, it has never been more black and white. Shades of gray do not exist everywhere
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I noted that also
Andrew thinks that because we're all accepted everywhere now that that's also causing the end of gay culture. Well, maybe that's true in San Francisco and Manhattan and West Hollywood, but not where I live. I'm comfortable with the people I know here, they accept me for who I am; but I'm not going to hold hands with my man in the grocery store. Some folks here are mentally challenged enough already when they see two grown men, one white and the other Black, shopping for food together.

Out of respect to my community, I don't throw it in people's faces; I see no need to. But I'm never going to leave my gay identity behind and assimilate here the way Andrew thinks I have already.
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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I don't think holding hands is throwing it in people's faces.
Of course a couple can hold hands or not, that's their business. Several years ago, in downtown Denver I saw a young gay couple holding hands and it seemed natural. If I recall, they even kissed quickly like couples do when they're walking.

Maybe one day seeing this in public will be more common.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. I totally agree.
:eyes: Also remember he votes Republican, so if gays were invisible, that would be ideal to him. That he thinks he sees that vanishment happening is baloney. Personally, I haven't been seeing any such thing happening, and I've been around for quite a while. What I do see happening is that gays are slowing winning over public opinion and securing legal rights, but I don't see any kind of integration per se that Sullivan talks about. He's gotten so mushy.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. I don't see acceptance on a local level
One neighbor- a straight couple and Dems are reasonable.

Another treats us like leppers and their two daughters can't look us in the face.

Their cohorts next door started listening to Limpbag loudly across our fence, and as the theofascist victory rolled in they became distant and hostile after nearly two decades of peacefully living side by side. By the time shrub got in for his second magnificent term :sarcasm: they had become near enemies and are also unable to look at us except in sureptitious glances and open hostility.

This isn't about gay bars and and the loss of a culture that reflected youthful partying- this is about keeping a low profile and worrying about issues of security. Something that Andrew seems to not feel in the rarified air he breathes. (mixed metaphore? LOL)

The radicalright have painted the gay community as depraved, diseased and dangerous and the so called moderate middle has beleived them because they worked their hate on a grass roots level from every pulpit.

Screw the hey day of gay resorts and their demise, I want access to work (which I have thanks to some smart adaptations despite the Catholic church henchman trying to destroy us) and I want a peaceful life.
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Ayesha Donating Member (587 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. I think this is true to an extent
Edited on Fri Oct-14-05 03:42 PM by Ayesha
The same idea is also discussed in the recent Time magazine article about gay youth.
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1112856,00.html
They call it post-gay, which is a lame term but what they mean is that "gay" has become synonymous with certain things in some kids' minds, and they don't identify with that culture at all, but they are attracted to the same sex. Hopefully these kids will eventually realize that there isn't one way of being gay or lesbian, and embrace their identity. Based on my own experiences, I suspect they will, and certainly there is a huge generation of out-and-proud gay youth to help them do so.

Young people have more courage to be out because while they have experienced discrimination, they've also been accepted by many people. They may still be called a "fag" at school but they've got a group of straight friends to support them and back them up - friends who, like them, may be preppy or goth, hippie or hipster. They know they have the right to be themselves, as opposed to previous generations who may not have believed they deserved equal treatment. They'll probably leave a repressive rural community, but they can go to the nearest big city, instead of SF or NYC. They can expect to have support and understanding from at least some of their relatives, often even their parents. It's a whole different world for them.

I'm a young-ish lesbian (28), and kind of fall between the generations, so I can see both sides. I think it is very important for us to come together to fight for our rights, but I don't want to be held to certain expectations of how I should look, dress, or be because of my sexual orientation. I like lesbian music and such but am profoundly embarrassed by lesbians who carry on with bad stereotypes, such as wearing mullets. I enjoy going to Pride, but find the culture of West Hollywood to be very empty and superficial. I dislike bars and think that in general they're a lousy way to meet people with whom to form a committed, monogamous relationship. The crystal meth/barebacking/bathroom sex scene absolutely appalls me. I think that there are a lot of wonderful things about "traditional" gay culture, but also some terrible aspects that we are wise to leave behind.

My partner and I want kids, and we want to live in a place where we and they can have gay, straight, black, white, Asian, etc. friends and be welcomed by all. We don't want to be ghettoized, nor do we expect to be. We expect - and will demand if necessary - acceptance.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Bravo- great attitude, strong, positive
so good to hear you say this.

I wish you and your partner much joy and happiness and a family if that is your wish.

I can tell you that 19 years in a stable, loving, relationship is a blessing- it beats other options for me.

We are not big on bar scene- as in we don't go. No need, too much to do in real life. But when I wa a young bluepup- it was a fun outlet, now as bluedawg it's good to have a home and hearth and little puplings.
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freestyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
22. Interesting points, yet a very narrow viewpoint.
His one paragraph on Blacks and Latinos, few mentions of lesbians, and nothing about transgendered people betrays the very narrow white, gay, male view Sullivan makes minimal effort to get outside of. Placing a major focus on a GLBT identity has not been something women and people of color have historically been able to do. It was always about integrating and moving in different circles with as much of yourself intact as possible.

As a black, gay man, I had difficulty relating. It was always both/and and not either or. I don't see the end of "gay culture", but the broadening of it. There is a rich and diverse history there that can't be pigeonholed or narrowed to one part of the GLBT experience. Learning that is a good thing. It is also good to learn that other markers of identity may be just as important. I can meet more people like me in Oak Bluffs in January than I can in P'town in June.

Yet, it is far too early to claim victory and join the so-called mainstream. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty and some of us need to keep up the old neighborhoods and safe places, and even expand them. We still live in a country where many of our neighbors hate us and want us dead. We can't let our guard down.
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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Sullivan speaks for very few, I think...
First of all, I'm a technically bisexual male, but generally more attracted to men, and the best relationship I've ever been in, with a transgendered female-to-androgynous person. I have a twin sister.

I've never related to gay or strait 'culture' when it came to the dating games, the nonsense, the meat racks, the sexualized gender-oriented entertainment of either crowd. I've always appreciated gender benders of all kinds, and I sympathize with gay blacks, lesbians, transgendered people who find gay male culture to be narcissistic, myopic, and unfortunate in so many ways.

That someone from one of the major gay areas, would think to act as if being gay ever meant San Francisco or New York, or that mainstream acceptance in certain regions ended the old tribalism, is simply a form of narcissistic projection of their own distortions on others.

I came out in a small college town, and it was horrible, and there are still people coming out or living in the closet in rural areas today, one of my better friends works in construction, tends to visit the porn shops/peep shows to meet people, off the truck route, and that's not my style at all, but my point is there are lots of people who NEVER fit the 'GLBT' 'culture', or felt excluded by the white male gay culture in the major cities, for whatever reasons, because they weren't in the clique, weren't 'gay enough' or desirous of adopting the 'gay mannerisms' or mocking women in camp drag out of the typical lack of self esteem that requires putting down someone else.

The REAL gay community, and I say community, not culture, includes closeted folkes, goths, hippies, 'normies', occultists, Christians, Jews, truckers, etc. And it always did, only people tried not to notice, previously.

Maybe now the 'gay subculture' will become more real, and the community will be more solid, that is the challenge.

Too many transgendered people are killed every month in America, and too many gay kids are harassed, humiliated, beaten, kicked out of their homes, told they are abominations, scapegoated, too many resort to drugs or suicide, out of desperation.

i.e., Sullivan can fuck himself, he really has no clue at all.
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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. ...
Coming out wasn't horrible in terms of other people, it was simply horrible because of the cultural alienation in such a town, just to clarify. Even with good friends and even with an absense of harassment/humiliation, the lack of community, can be awful.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-05 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
25. What a prat Sullivan is!
OMG! Gays aren't just getting drunk in the bars and screwing in the bath houses. They're getting married, meeting for coffee and enjoying walks on the beach. Oh the humanity! :eyes:

No, there is no single gay identity, but there is no single straight identity, white identity, black identity, etc. To expect a large, diverse group of people to be completely homogenous is asinine. For crying out loud, gay men alone have like 41 different variations within their ranks (according to lesbian comic Suzanne Westenhoffer).

I was in P-town last week among many thousands of lesbians and a couple hundred gay men. (There were also some straight people who are not pertinent to the story). Our culture was alive and booming--and the bars were packed (as were the stores, coffee shops, restaurants and, yes, Spiritus Pizza ;-)). There is not a damn thing wrong with gay culture, except in the mind of Andrew Sullivan.
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