FYI from Mr. Manners

[sui generis]

(sui, Mr. Manners, :rofl:)

I think most people understand this, but to some folks who don't get to interact with us a lot you don't really have a lot of guidelines. Here are a few of my least favorite things:

1. Don't say "self-loathing gays" in conversation.
I have seen this dozens of times right here on DU, often from people who don't intend to offend. It's not really offensive, it's just wrong and you're wasting keystrokes when you say it. Also, saying it to your gay friends about someone else is like making witty fat "observations" about someone else to your fat friends.

If we were forced to pretend to be straight, we might find that a little distasteful as well as unnatural, but "self loathing" is not something that people who are OUT of the closet do, and "gay" is not how you describe someone who is "in" the closet.

Even if you were hetero and forced to pretend to be gay in order to have inheritance rights, employment protections, and access to superior taste in accessories and home furnishings, would it be right to call yourself a "self loathing hetero"? See. It just doesn't fit no matter which way you try to spin it.

Ironically, the being gay thing: that bothers some heteros a LOT more than it bothers us. Getting loathed, yes. Self Loathing . . . not so much.

2. Don't look at one of us FINE looking gents or ladies and say "what a waste". It's not clever OR funny. Doesn't require elaboration.

Anyone else (all sides) have constructive observations to add?

[mzteris]

1. I agree with everything you've said

BUT - I have a question - how DO YOU describe the Lonnie Lathams of the world?

[sui generis]

2. that's easy

"self loathing" has nothing to do with what he did.

He views "other people" as gay, and himself as troubled by demons or temptation or whatever. That's why he doesn't see any hypocrisy in his actions, just a human failing in the face of temptation.

That's not self-loathing - that's just hypocrisy. We just assume he feels the same revulsion about himself as we feel about him for his hypocrisy, which isn't necessarily what's going through his mind.

If you try to connect that he's a closet gay and he hates gays and therefore hates himself, that doesn't really work either. By definition, someone who is closeted does not view "gayness" as an internalized component of their identity - he couldn't be "self loathing".

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. Ah, I see now that the characters in brokeback mounting are hypocrites

I apologize for using the wrong nomenclature in other posts. Hypocritical is more accurate, meaningful and precise.

[sui generis]

4. those characters aren't supposed to be perfect

any more than you could claim to be and be believable.

They weren't good to their wives by 21st century sensibilities, not sure how that makes them "hypocrits" though.

[mzteris]

5. I think he does loathe himself

and even IF "being gay" has anything to do with that, I think it's a minor footnote.

Though think about it this way - if a person is raised to "hate gays" - and then discover the tendency in themselves, don't you think there is some degree of "self hatred" generated because of that? Or hating "that part" of themselves - and then they go on to disassociate and compartmentalize themselves - *that* part isn't REALLY ME - it's just Satan (or something) - no they don't view it as part of themselves because they CAN'T - because they were raised to hate that part.

Someone who is closeted may not view their "gayness" as an internalized component - but it is most assuredly "internalized", is it not? Just not an integrated component.

I postulated some time ago (in DU? maybe, or some other forum) that for these types (the Lathams) - part of the turn on for them MIGHT be the "dirty forbidden bad" nature of the illicit behavior.



I hope you don't think I'm trying to be disagreeable and argumentative, I'm really trying to have a good conversation about this topic.

[sui generis]

6. it's okay - agreeable conversation is good

I just don't agree that their own core identity is what they "loathe".

They might hate the idea of being all of the list of generally held character defects associated with homosexuality (weak, hypersexual, immoral, predatory, masochistic, despiccable, unnatural, goin' to hell) and therefore compartmentalize or else hate that aspect of themselves, but the phrase "self loathing" is more often used to generalize against all of us (along with the list above), and as a generalization it feeds a stereotype that really doesn't have a basis in fact for people who aren't in the closet.

Unfortunately for people like Latham, it may actually be indistinguishable from a host of other pathology, but a lot of times I've heard gay men in particular referred to as "masochistic" and "self loathing", which is most definitely NOT true.

I've just come to associate that phrase with a negative generalization of us, and inaccurate or incomplete understanding of individuals. I think there are more meaningful ways to describe his particular complex personality disfunction. Gay issues aside he is no different than anyone who rails about prostitution by day and hires a hooker at night. Do we call that kind of preacher self loathing? Nah, just a hypocrit.

Plus my mind's "voice" repeats it with a british accent: "self lewthing", dahlink.

:P

[mzteris]

7. I had thought about the

prostitute angle, too - and find it very comparable. (great minds and all that. :) )

And I understand where you're coming from about disliking the "self-loathing" adjective - but I don't really think of it as a "gay epithet". And for guys like this - they do "hate" that aspect of themselves - (no matter whether it's same or opposite sex behaviour) because they were taught to hate it. And I think they hate that they hate it, yet it becomes part of the turn on, too.

As far as masochistic - well, we won't go there. My ex is a bear and proud of it! :evilgrin:

Hypocrite? Hell yeah he's (Latham) a hypocrite - (but I don't think everyone who's in the closet is - many people are "in" for many reasons that are not in the least based on being a "hypocrite"!)

But I think he's a hypocrite for being a self-righteous pr@ck who gay bashes and condemns others to suffer societal - and self - condemnation.

[UncleSepp]

8. How about "Don't use gay, queer, whatever as an insult"

Just don't.

[Brian_Expat]

9. Another one

3) Don't patronise me just because I'm gay. We want to be tolerated and accommodated -- and viewed as individuals, not "the gay one."