If I were Transgendered I wouldn't see DU as a place for Liberals

[La Lioness Priyanka]

I see transphobia all over the place here. Has any one else noticed this? All the references to ann coulter-man coulter etc. And even aside from that...any woman who is considered by someone unattractive is compared to a trannie.

Why is this acceptable?

On edit: My brother (who is NOT transgendered but occasionally does drag) is many times more beautiful that 99% of bio women on DU, me included)

[Olney Blue]

1. It's not acceptable. It bothers me too.

:-(

[xultar]

2. I don't see that. Please point out where you see transphobia. Links.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. i dont want to call out Du'ers

watch for threads on ann coulter (GD or Lounge)

thread on actresses, singers etc (lounge mainly)

[xultar]

14. Ann Coulter though. That is like insulting Chimps by calling * a chimp.

The one thing I can say is when Jokes go mainstream you've finally made it into the mainstream.
Used to be people wouldn't talk about Gays, Lesbians, Bis and Transgenderd @ all. Now the jokes are mainstream.
That to me means there is progress. It is o.k. joke about such things. There is a show called Transgeneration.
People are learning.

Pretty soon it will be nothing but a thing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. disagree with you there. comparing a very oppressed minority

to one of the worlds most vicious person does not mean the oppressed minority has reached the mainstream.

if i compared black people when referring to ugly white people...would you say its because black people have reached mainstream society?

[xultar]

23. Sure. Notice how black jokes just don't get the laughs like they used to?

The shit is used up. It is no longer cool just to kill of the only black guy in the beginning of the film or to make him a pimp.
The shit isn't funny anymore so they don't do it...as much.

Maybe it is because I hung out with the transgendered folk in New Orleans...They seemed to have fun with the stereotypes to the point where
they owned it and it didn't matter.

I think that is what we as blacks are trying to do. Own the stereotypes so the shit won't work.

[foreigncorrespondent]

47. Head over to GD right now!!!

There is a thread for a new googlebomb over there.

[readmoreoften]

85. trans jokes have been around throughout history, as have trans people

It's not a sign that we've made it into the mainstream. Women have been insulted for being to "mannish" or like a "man in a woman's costume" throughout history. Nothing new.

[MuseRider]

3. Yes I notice it. n/t

[dsc]

5. It is very upsetting

Ann is so horrible anything which might hurt her is considered fair game thus sadly we end up not caring whomelse might be hurt. The saddest part of all is that those people end up becoming just a little bit of what they hate so much.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. true

the sexism/transphobia in the ann coulter threads distract from the real evil that she actual is.

[dsc]

13. She is pretty horrid

I can see why some women would love to have her actually be a man so they don't have to claim her but that doesn't excuse the behavior.

[benddem]

6. I think you misunderstand

none of the remarks about Ann's gender have anything to do with the transgendered community...it is about the living blooming hypocrite who embodies that body. No one would give a fig about her sexuality if she wasn't so damn nasty. I'm sure your brother is more beautiful both physically and spiritually than that obnoxious scourge.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. i dont misunderstand at all

to me if you think the worst insult to a woman is saying that she looks like a trannie..its transphobia


the thing about my brother was an aside...since doing drag is significantly different than being transgendered.... also i realized i missed out the word NOT , sorry about that

[Warpy]

22. No, the worst insult to a woman would be to say

"Yer a duplicate of Phyllis Schlafly, Linda Tripp, and the Pox News bimbette squad all rolled into one. And yer kids are ugly. And yer house is a dump. And how much weight HAVE you gained?"

Besides, with Coulter, it's the HYPOCRISY of it all.

[foreigncorrespondent]

48. Ya know what?

I am really getting tired for people around here saying it is the hypocrisy of it that makes us use it. No it isn't. If you have to say this kind of shit or so and so is gay then it is nothing more than transphobia and homophobia whether you like it or not.

You are using something a negative against someone else. That really isn't cool. And truly makes DU resemble freeperville.

[mistertrickster]

7. When you do something really unusual, you better be willing to

take some ribbing.

Society has customs and conventions. Most of them are good, like driving on the right-hand side of the road in the US and waiting your turn in line. We enforce these customs through ridiculing those who break them.

As a older man, if I suddenly decide to go out in public in a mini-skirt, fishnet stockings, and high heels, I'm going to take some ridicule.

Breaking society's rules is not for sissies.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. what if you felt like an older woman instead of man

and went out dressed like an old woman?

[MsUnderstood]

11. you miss the point

Liberalism is about freedom and equality for all, regardless of social notions about how one should behave.

The point the post is making is that the posts seen here don't encompass that value of liberalism. . .

[foreigncorrespondent]

49. self delete

Post didn't make sense.

[UncleSepp]

28. What an ignorant thing to say

Being transgendered is not about "suddenly deciding" to "go out in public in a mini-skirt, fishnet stockings, and high heels". Is that what you think it's about? Absurd female drag?

Being gay, for that matter, is breaking society's customs and conventions - is it all right then to rag on gays? Is it all right for people to insult women who do non-traditionally female jobs because they've broken conventions?

Honestly, your logic is extremely conservative, not at all liberal. What gives here? Do you really think that way, or are you trying to go to the extreme to make a point?

[The Straight Story]

93. I think the point is

That is how society is in general, and it won't change overnight because we have a utopian view of what we want it to be like. People are mean, and that is just how it is. I get ridiculed sometimes (not often) for wearing my cowboy hat all the time - at work, eating, etc. I expect it and know some people won't change, screw em.

The question the OP is asking really, to me, seems to be - the outside world will ridicule you for being different, but should we be doing that here?

And yet we do - from transgenders to christians we bash people daily here (or more their lifestyles and choices) who are on our side.

The problem is not that we are a big tent in a circus of ideas, it is that some people are as unaccepting of our ways as they claim conservatives are of theirs.

[readmoreoften]

86. Yeah, and when my girlfriend was chased by frat boys

for dressing like a man "she was asking for it."

You're pretty bold for posting here when you're so ignorant of LGBT history and issues.

(And I don't care if you claim to be gay either. You're still ignorant of our history and our issues.)

[MrModerate]

12. I agree that comparing Coulter to a transgendered person . . .

is inappropriate.

I think people are looking for just about any way to bash a truly despicable public figure and the supposed hypocrisy of her imagined transgender status is something people fixate on.

I haven't seen other "unattractive" women compared to transgendered persons here, so I can't really comment.

C'mon folks! Coulter is pure slime right on the face of it. There's no need to imagine anything else about her that would make her worse. I'm already convinced that she crushes kittens between her thighs and drinks their bile -- what more do we need?

[1620rock]

18. I never ever thought about...

...transgender people when reading about the beast Coulter. She likes to swing a big set of pretend nuts into a room to take charge like a big-ass he-man...so sure she is going to get the business about that. :shrug:

[UncleSepp]

27. That's exactly it, hon... you hit the nail on the head

People don't think when they make insults like that - they don't think that there might be an actual transperson hearing and seeing the insult. Trans people exist "somewhere else", and for most people who would make jokes like that, that "somewhere else" is a drag show :-( Nope. We're out here, we're posting on the 'net, we're building your houses, we're keeping your networks running... we're all around, and we've got feelings, too.

:hug:

[mitchtv]

44. you have a point

I always jump when they start calling pukes gay in order to trash them. Out'm with proof or shut up.

[foreigncorrespondent]

50. I do too, Mitch!

I am getting bloody tired of certain minority groups being used as negatives and being given a pass every time.

[SushiFan]

15. 99% of DU draggers look better than the real Coulter nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. very true.

[SushiFan]

21. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one!! :) nt

[Dunvegan]

19. Thank you for your post, Lionesspriyanka

Living in San Francisco I am actively part of our entire community.

Saying that I have to admit to insensitivity on this particular issue.

You'll find no more such insensitive talk from me.

I am grateful to your raising my consciousness on this important issue.

I'm sure my transgendered friends would be sad to know I've made such jokes, and hereby I apologize to all transgentered people for not keeping them in my thoughts.

It really is painful to try an make one's way in this world as a TG...try to imagine it for just a minute. It's a tough road to walk.

Let it not be said I made that road any rockier or more lengthy.

[Warpy]

20. Coulter is an appealing target. You wouldn't see that stuff used

on any DUer who came out as being transgendered. You need to separate who is being slammed, here. Coulter would still be slammed hard even if it were the most feminine little bit of fluff on the planet, obviously female, because Coulter is a shit spewing viper.

Men who do drag well generally ARE more beautiful than biological females, sad to say. They're fantasy women who make themselves gorgeous in creating the illusion. I appreciate drag as an art form and I adore the floor show wherever anyone from casual cross dressers to performers to pre or post op transsexuals gather, like a certain grotty little restaurant on Beacon Hill in the 70s. I didn't mind being a colorless wren in comparison. I never got confused over pronounds. They were all "she."

I've been as guilty as everyone else of saying Man Coulter and speculating on her obvious male physique and that Adam's apple. I won't know for sure until there's a picture of her somewhere in a backless dress. Those back muscles are the giveaway, although her deltoids look suspiciously masculine. However, once again, the prejudice isn't against the men who do drag so beautifully, it's against a vicious harpy with toads hopping out of its mouth when ever it speaks, no matter which sex it started life as.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. it came up about madonna too

just saying...

[terrya]

24. I don't like that "Mann Coulter" stuff

It IS insensitive, imo. Christ, attack her for everything else...her insane views, etc...

But I cringe when I see people attacking her because she may have masculine physical attributes.

[UncleSepp]

26. Thank you, Priyanka... it IS hurtful

It seems like no matter how many times actual TG people point out on DU that such insults are hurtful, non-TG people jump up and defend them and say that WE are the ones who just don't understand. I've been as plain about it as saying "When you use transgenderedness as an insult, it insults me" and have gotten the response of "No, it doesn't." It does. It hurts transpeople, it hurts women, it hurts men.

It makes me want to keep my head down... but obviously, I don't. It's nice to know that others can see this, too.

:pals:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. i see it love, and i dont like it,

[neoblues]

29. It's not fair, but it's not intentional exactly...

That is, to use those who are transgendered for purposes of negative sterotyping within jokes not aimed at them is still unfair... even if it wasn't intended as an offense against them.

Even so, one point might be that these comparison/jokes actually hold 'true' transgendered people as being the ones who are rational, who've made a conscious choice and who actually know what they are in a gender sense--whereas, the actual butt of the joke is the one who suffers from gender confusion and doesn't even have the awareness to know it. In a sense, that's a backhanded compliment of sorts...

Okay, we should be more sensitive when we resort to making off-colored (or off-gendered) jokes at the expense not only of our target but those whom we've used for comparison. True enough, and many of us are guilty without having even thought about it. Alas, while most of us actually harbor no ill-will towards gays, in responding to Republicans--since we know it really does bother them, I see that it's not all that unusual to see a liberal taunting or making fun of a Republican as being "in the closet" or otherwise Gay but unwilling to admit it... We may call them "Gay" as an insult while we don't consider being Gay to be anything to be ashamed of... just because it works. Alas, even that perpetuates such stereotypes and attitudes that there really is something wrong with being Gay... and so we should hold off there too. Indeed, whenever we use a reference to any "group" as being a negative, in theory we're being intolerant and bigoted.

That said, however, we aren't about to stop calling certain groups out as being absurd, ridiculous, stupid, heartless, mean, ugly, evil, destructive and so on... and here I'm referring to the groups that call themselves "neocons", "vulcans", "moral majority" (deprecated), "conservatives" (of the recently corrupted variety), and "Republicans"... etc. There really are some groups that deserve criticism--we just have to avoid abusing 'innocent' groups--just because they already suffer with some form of discrimination and criticism. In a sense, it's like adding insult to injury to use a group the Republicans demonize to "insult" Republicans (since the demonization which we are reinforcing was largely a result of Republicans themselves). That is, the Republicans treat a group badly, so we in turn insult that same group by relying on the same defamatory insinuation the Republicans did. Duhhhrrr.

[w13rd0]

30. Ann Coulter isn't transgendered...

...she just has Clenis envy.

[gator_in_Ontario]

40. Good one!

*s*

[UncleSepp]

31. Successful Transwomen and Transmen

Something else that gets me is how people here seem to mostly think that transgendered == drag queen. Regular old transwomen are all but invisible, and I doubt that most people here even understand that transmen exist unless they know one or are one.

Here's a couple of good sites - I love them both!

Successful Transwomen
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html

Here are programmers, doctors, attorneys, professors, engineers... even a nun! And it's right to make fun of these women for their courage? Where are the miniskirts and fishnets on the nun, eh? Most likely, the comments here about these women would be "oh yeah, she's believeable" or "hey, that one still looks like a man".

Successful Transmen
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TransMen.html

Here are the truly invisible: transmen. They are attorneys, writers, organic farmers, speedboat racers, and ministers. I can't even imagine what the comments would be here, because I've only ever seen a few people here in the GLBT forum acknowledge the existence of transmen.

On that note, though, the GLBT forum here IS the place where I got the first help I needed. For that - thanks to all of y'all here



:grouphug:

[undergroundpanther]

35. Feline transman here

I exist.

[UncleSepp]

39. Great big hugs and kitty-skritches to you, UP

You have made my life better just by being on the edge of it, do you know that? :-)

[undergroundpanther]

43. purrrrrrrrrrrr

Thanks..Big fuzzy Cathugs..to you!

[readmoreoften]

87. Are you transitioning, Unka?

You've always been one of my favorite DUers! :hug:

[NWHarkness]

32. It should not be acceptable

But sadly, there are some here who don't understand the inppropriateness of such remark.

Besides being insulting to trannies, and by implication women, it's just cheap. There are plenty of substantive ways to counter Coulter without resorting to immature remarks about her appearance.

[1620rock]

33. Thanks UncleSepp,...

...you have opened a lot of eyes around here today. Peace. :hi:

[undergroundpanther]

34. I stay out of the lounge

Because it's full of jerks.

Some of the lounge goers are transphobic and when they found out I am transforming myself into a cat person with tattoos etc.( sorta like Cat man) I really got alot of stupid ass holey comments that hurt. Since that day I refuse to go to the lounge.DU in my opinion is too tolerant of smart ass"snarky"bullies that use "humor" to mask their asshole intentions to degrade people who are different. It's rather disgusting and ignorant.Also Du has a large sexist contingent of males and they treat feminists like crap and will not listen to the arguments feminists make .They just shoot them down and play games, There is a fat phobic / morally"superior"health police contingent here too,That make all sorts of asshole comments about others eating habits as if they KNOW why Americans are fat.It all amounts to a moral superiority trip.

So to me these kinds of Dem's are just pathetic bullies, they are morally degenerate to people who let others be without humiliating them,DU has it's share of defensive assholes. And they not worth my time or consideration.They only thing good about these asshole people is they hate bush too.

[Mythsaje]

37. I don't like the lounge either

Haven't spent that much time there, really, but haven't enjoyed too much of what I've seen.

[w13rd0]

41. You know, there is a toggle...

...in options to hide the Lounge. I use it just because I don't much care for the clutter on the Latest page. You get that kind of behavior everywhere you go though. There will always be persons that choose to view anything other than that which they are familiar with, with contempt. I've seen it not only in the "straight/mainstream" culture, but in alternative cultures as well. It's clique/tribe mentality, and it's reinforced from generation to generation by some to counter an evolutionary progressive push.

[Siyahamba]

51. That's awesome!

I'm a leopard at heart, myself. :hug:

But I agree with you... I gave up venturing outside GLBT at DU long ago. :(

[Mythsaje]

36. I've considered that myself on occasion...

It's one of the reasons I don't refer to her in that light. I consider her a scary, near skeletal thing, but I don't consider a reference to her alleged sex change as any kind of a real issue.

[TaleWgnDg]

42. Why is sexism accepted? particularly here in DU?

Because it's the norm. As in it's so common that it is accepted. It is viewed as unquestionable. So unquestioned that to speak out against sexism is viewed as weird. Sexism is old. Sexism is pervasive and to many, inflexible, because it has become the bedrock of commonality and acceptability.

Racism is similar.

[xchrom]

45. it's the sibling reaction to the thread you started

the other day.

notice that the word ''man'' is involved.

[foreigncorrespondent]

46. Girl...

...you don't have to be transgendered to see that! And that is all I will say on that.

But yes, I do see it all the time and it makes me sick.

On edit: Don't forget it just isn't JUST transphobia you will see here. I also see a lot of homophobia. It seems being transexual and gay is fair game to use a negative against anyone. Makes us very right wing as far as I am concerned.

[UncleSepp]

52. Please go explain this to another poster...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2109466&mesg_id=2111133

Please, help me explain to this poster why this isn't funny.

For that matter, help explain it to these posters, too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2110540&mesg_id=2111191
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2110540&mesg_id=2111334
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2110540&mesg_id=2110811
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2110540&mesg_id=2112173
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=436220&mesg_id=436658

All in one night - almost all on the same thread!

[UncleSepp]

53. Kick.

Although it ain't the thread I'd really like to kick right now.

[nickinSTL]

54. I'm glad someone brought this up

I dislike Coulter as much as the next guy, but it's really insulting to transwomen to suggest she is one just because you don't like her.

To say that she must be trans because she's unattractive and has big hands (I don't know if that's true, but it's been said on these threads) is ignorant and perpetuates stereotypes. It makes it seem ok to say that transwomen are unattractive and have big hands.

I have seen LOTS of transwomen. Some of them are gorgeous. And some have very slender, feminine hands.

Some transwomen you'd NEVER guess. Some bio-women you'd think are either trans or...unfortunately very unattractive.

Calling Coulter a tranny just for effect demeans the experience of transpeople and the struggles they experience.

DU should be better than that.

[Duncan Grant]

55. Because I have to kick this or die.

Attempt #4 4/12/06

Great thread, lionesspriyanka. You're ahead of the curve on this issue and I'm grateful. :hi: :kick:

[UncleSepp]

57. Thanks for trying. Those "oo, now we gotta be PC" posts piss me off

I can't see how a liberal worth his bumper sticker can think that way, but too many still do. Nice to see there are DUers who do care about the impact of their words on us transfolk.

[Duncan Grant]

66. Many 'progressives' went on the record today.

Some of them have no idea how entitled they sound. What a privilege it must be to live so confidently in the 'normal' world. :sarcasm:

ps: We need to check in re: Columbia, SC sometime. :hi:

[Siyahamba]

56. I report transphobia where I see it on DU.

Not often these days because I don't venture out of GLBT that much, but I report it and hopefully moderators are taking action.

[Duncan Grant]

67. Please keep alerting on it.

As a former mod, I can tell you that the alert button is your friend. :hi:

[jonnyblitz]

58. yup, one of several reasons why i frequent DU less and less..

these day....:hi:

great thread.

[Duncan Grant]

64. I hear ya.

If you stumble upon a more GLBT friendly political board would you mind PMing me a link? Thanks in advance. :)

[terrya]

82. I can understand, but please don't leave DU completely.

Perhaps as a moderator I shouldn't weigh in on this, but I'm also a gay man who's just as pissed about the transphobia here. It's not even subtle...someone just has to post something about Ann Coulter and her physical attributes and then it's "MANN COULTER!!!" time. And you can sense the glee behind it. It's stupid, it's hateful, and it's shameful to see here at DU.

That GD post yesterday was spot on. I hopw rhw OP understands why that post was locked.

I can understand the anger here. I just hope no one leaves DU completely. I have the GLBT forum on my list of favorites. I come here every day and post (though probably not as often as I should). This forum really is a great place...in no small part because of folks like you,

[Occulus]

59. Know what, though?

Each and every time I see a comment like this, it is always, without exception, accompanied by a reference to the "Mann Coulter" remark.

That's also the only example I can think of.

Interesting, that.

edited to add: Let me try to put this into some sort of perspective. The "Mann Coulter" jokes ought to be no more offensive to transgendeed DUers than slams on the LCRs are to me as a gay man.

And yes, I loathe those self-hating, damaging, delusional fuckers only slightly more than I despise Ann Coulter. My disgust between them would be exactly equal were she to be discovered to actually have been trans this whole time.

Which she's not. On the 'disgust' scale, the LCRs come in at a 9.753, while Ann tips the scales at a 9.75. The 'disgust scale' is a measurement of hypocrisy, by the way.

"She's so much of a hypocrite, I bet she's actually trans" MEANS "She's willing to bash groups she herself belongs to." Reading between the lines really helps sort things out, here.

She bashes feminists, but she's an outspoken FEMALE talking head; such jobs were once almost exclusively MALE. She talks about how liberals 'hate', and yet her books and her columns... well, they speak for themselves on the hypocrisy score.

And so on.

It would be a bit like a MTF trans bashing women for not being in the home 'taking care of their kids', and at the same time bashing on immigrants, while ALSO at the same time doing big glitzy drag shows on the side as a convenient and completely coincidental (no, really, in this case, to be true, it's a coincidence) bonus for making himself into a 'her' so convincingly, and doing the drag just because she can, while at the same time paying a sitter to watch her three-month-old adopted Indonesian kid.

THAT kind of hypocrisy.

Oh, that MTF trans girl I sat next to in the bar? Drag shows. As many as she can enter.

And she WINS. It's quite lucrative, from what she told me.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not defending the jokes; I'm trying to explain where they come from. That said, if it were an honestly heterosexual but outwardly effeminate man bashing on gays, shoot... *I'D* be saying, "he acts SO GAY."

And I'M GAY.

[Guy Fawkes]

60. How about this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=924088&mesg_id=924088

[Occulus]

61. Could have been intentional...

...because she knows people slam her like that and she thinks it's silly and makes us look bad.

Regardless, that mistake just plays into the whole thing.

This is telling, in either direction, depending on whom you ask:

"Friedman reported Tuesday that Coulter's registration form raised questions about her decision to register and vote at an address where she did not live."

Not to me. What it says to me was, she was either interrupted, or declined to answer. Was the rest of the form filled out? What was the position of the question on the rest of the form? Did she fill out the entire form, or stop at that question and not continue?

I agree with the quoted trans person from the first link, though: gender shouldn't be an issue when recording a vote. The gender of the voter in no way affects the vote itself, and given all the other information present, if 'they' really wanted to know, they could come to your home and ask. But that's part of a census, and not related to to actual vote itself.

I personally think she's playing into the whole 'Ann the Mann' thing, but I would have to answer those questions to be certain. As to WHY... that's anybody's guess.

[Guy Fawkes]

62. No, I mean the thread.

The thread (and responses) as an example of transphobia.

[Occulus]

63. Well, in the first place,

she's quite clearly not transsexual. I also don't think she's a woman.

Did you ever read Enchantments of the Flesh and Spirit? She's one of them.

As to the mindset you saw on that thread, I'm starting to think you have to actually be transsexual or transgendered to be honestly bothered by it. Why do I think that? Because I also happen to think you have to actually be gay or bi to fully understand those trials.

BEing gay myself, I know those trials all too intimately.

Personally... with my past.... I have to believe trans persons have a thicker skin than this. Not because they should have that, please understand; I feel that way because they have to have developed such, even if not by choice.

I've yet to meet anyone so emotionally sensitive as myself (and I mean, what for you is a pat on the head is for me a half-ton impact, emotionally speaking), and yet.... and yet..... This is so.... petty, and fruitless (NO pun intended, thankyou), and really is not intended to hurt/harm trans people in any way.... it makes my head hurt, really, because when I flip this coin, I see two sides.

I just can't bring myself to be as bothered by this 'joke' as they are, hence my comment about having to be living that, be it being gay or trans or bi or whatever.

I personally think transgendered/transsexuals (is there an accepted acronym for that? I'm just getting tired of typing it) have a lot of courage. I only went out in drag once and that, on Halloween. I have no idea how you all manage to pull it off so very convincingly- and I mean that, I really do.

Just like with the girl in the bar, if you said nothing about it, I would have no clue that you weren't born the sex you show to the world. That takes a burnished, polished brass set... MTF or FTM. And you prove you can do it, every day.

All I'm trying to do here is underscore that it's not transpersons as a class that are intended to be slammed with the 'Ann the Mann' jokes.

It's Ann, and only Ann. And she's helping it happen by pulling stupid crap like the gender box.

EDIT: Apparently, that's optional in FL. She didn't do something she didn't have to do. But note- that clarification appears to happen at the END of the thread. I guess nobody bothered to check if that question was required or not.

I'd say that, in itself, is a bit telling.

(edited, right out of the gate: what I'd like to see is transpersons saying "No, she's not a MTF trans because xyz..." and be really, really catty at her about it. I know y'all have a vicious sense of humor when you want to......


.......or is that another stereotype?)

[Duncan Grant]

65. Here's a comment I took to heart today.

Comment is here

Just wanted to post a friendly FYI based on experiences with trans people here at DU and in my daily life.

I can only post what I know to be true among my trans friends. Let me assure you - they can't believe the levels of ignorance at DU. That causes me some concern. It may look like the anti-trans sentiment is about "...Ann, and only Ann" but that's not how it lands for some trans people here.

edit: sentence error

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duncan Grant]

69. Are they all trolls?

Comment made within the last 30 minutes

I agree that ignorance isn't necessarily evil.

If someone ask me to not take something personally, I'm often ask to negate my own boundaries by people who sometimes don't have my best interests at heart. It's good not to surrender or 'roll over' to the transgressions of the evil and/or ignorant too quickly.

Like you, I'm looking forward to more enlightenment on this issue here at DU. :)

[Occulus]

73. No, they're not.

That first one very obviously was, though.

We'll never have an open an honest discussion about what it means to be trans until and unless Certain Parties (see a certain post in this very subthread) get over the idea that to ask for a meaning or more information, or to ask for more information from unimpeachable sources, is somehow bigoted, or ignorant, or out of line.

It's NOT.

It's a bit like someone from an ethnic group thinking people who ask what it means to be part of that group are somehow bigoted against that group.

How can anyone even ask a question if the one questioned is automatically offended by it?

[UncleSepp]

70. I'm tired of educating other people's ignorance.

It would be nice to get some support from the rest of the bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich group (at least) without having to educate them first. It would be nice not to have to prove to someone else's satisfaction why it is that these transphobic comments are transphobic and why they are hurtful before that someone will say "ok, let's cut the hate". I really don't give a hang if you think it's justified that we transfolk take these comments personally, and it's mighty white of you to think you deserve an explanation first, Mister Queer Man.

[gator_in_Ontario]

71. I once heard someone say

when I first came out, lo those many years ago *s*, It is NOT our job to educate anyone.
But dang, we keep trying, eh?
Read the whole thread, and loved your input.
Peace UncleSepp!

[Occulus]

74. I think that's deeply wrong.

And ruinously shortsighted.

The people most likely to not educate themselves are also the people most likely to make our lives difficult in some way. By saying "we don't have to educate anyone", what you're really saying is, it takes so much work and effort that it's easier to deal with the bigotry of those people, and oppose that, rather than actually try to do something about it.

I don't think trans people here owe anyone an explanation; I do think a lot of people here don't know what it means to be trans. What sort of life is that? What issues have to be dealt with? And so on.

Those questions, I appear to have to state, are not to my benefit. I don't need those questions answered here; I can ask directly, face-to-face, if I have a question. The answers would be to the benefit of others here.

[Occulus]

72. Wow. Just.... wow.

But thanks for reinforcing my point.

edit: By your logic, I don't feel I need to explain why there's a deeper layer of meaning behind these stupid little jokes about someone not even part of your community. I won't be helping you, specifically, on this issue ever again. As far as I'm concerned, with that last snide, snarky, and completely uncalled for little comment... you're on you're own from now on.

Note how I took that comment: not as a slam on gays, as I could have taken it (use of the word 'queer' happens to offend me when speaking of all GLBs), but as a personal slam directed at me. Sort of like the Ann jokes, isn't it? Except I was able to see the difference between a slam on a group and a slam on a person.

I really don't much take well to the idea of someone jumping down my throat just for trying to help. I wasn't asking for an explanation of anything for my benefit. I wasn't really asking for a 'explanation' of anything. If you think that's what an open and honest discussion is- asking you and yours for an explanation, as if you owe us one or something- that's just sad. It precludes the possibility of any such thing, right out of the gate. Moreover, my post wasn't totally about just these jokes, but rather about what it means to be trans, why (in your own words) you feel you are the way you are, and so on.

Maybe you didn't read that far. Maybe you can't read between the lines, or infer meanings from written words. That's beyond my control, and I don't feel like educating you in those subjects. :)

By taking that post personally, you only reitorate (better than I ever could have) my own reasons for saying what I have been. Just forget I asked for more information, even when the resulting understanding would be for YOUR benefit and that of others here. With that kind of attitude.... I really couldn't care less. Flame the fuck away, I'm done even trying.

[UncleSepp]

83. Queer queer queer queer queer!

I'm as gay as an Easter bonnet, thanks, and I'll say queer all I like. If you're offended, I couldn't care less.

You picked the wrong night to lecture about what transfolk need to do, and your glib dismissal of your own use of drag-queen stereotypes came across as hideously patronizing. Your entire set of posts was patronizing. Who the hell are you to tell people what they should do to "educate"? Do you think I really want to keep ripping my heart out and showing it to the same people who think I and all my brothers and sisters are a bunch of freaks, so that they can judge us to be worthy of politeness -- or not? I've done a hell of a lot of educating here, and other people on this thread know it damned good and well. I educate in person, too. It's been a big week for me doing "education" in person, where the real risk is, and I am tired for now.

[Guy Fawkes]

75. About that troll...

Let me quote: "I'm transgendered. I know other transgendered people from all over the world. It's a shame that folks who profess to be better than the Republicans are, in actually, just as bigoted as those they despise."

Some troll, huh?

[Occulus]

76. I read that as "some of my best friends are gay/black/Jewish"

I'd say so.

You forgot this part: "It's a shame that folks who profess to be better than the Republicans are, in actually, just as bigoted as those they despise."

And this: "I guess every fat / disabled / person with genetic disabilities / deaf / dumb / blind / cleft lip individual is open to scorn on this board."

All in the same post.

59 posts since September of last year. I know, I know... the post count doesn't mean anything, but you have to wonder....

And some of my reaction was the tone of the post.

[sgsmith]

77. FYI - I'm not a troll

Just a trans gal who's deeply hurt and saddened by the spiteful comments of people who ought to know better.

I see so many people here make comments about others that are just as mean spirited as any thing that is attributed to the right wing folks. A good case in point was the thread about Ann Coulter and her "felonious" voter application form. The thing is, if you look at the form, those fields are not required by the state of Florida. But, everyone jumps on Ann because of her politics and attack her because of her appearance - "man hands", "horse face", "anorexic", "Adams apple", etc. etc. Now I'll admit that I'm not the most feminine appearing of people, so these comments strike very close to home for me.

To me, it's just as wrong to criticize Ann Coulter based on her appearance as it is to criticize Cynthia McKinney on her appearance. If you want to flame away on politics go right ahead, but don't intermix the two. Otherwise, it becomes acceptable to criticize on things that just debase the discussion.

You are right about one thing - post count doesn't amount to squat. Just because my posting style is to try to add substance to a discussion, vs those who just add "me too", "+1", "I agree completely" types of responses shouldn't cause you to make insulting comments.

[Occulus]

78. Then I was wrong, and I apologize

But I'll say it again: it isn't about trans people, it's about Ann's hypocrisy.

The gender box on the form was simply an unfortunate addition to the pile of jokes.... jokes about *her*.

Not about you; not about transsexuals. ANN. Not you.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I had to take so much of my life figuring out when people are and are not talking about me personally (or a group to which I belong) that I expect that same ability out of others.

Maybe I shouldn't even be making comments here on this thread because of that and that alone. One thing, however, I can personally guarantee each of you: thanks to what I've seen on this thread, you will never see me even trying to defend any of you ever again.

On these subjects, I promise you all, I will hereafter shut the fuck up. I don't know enough about what I'm talking about, apparently, to say anything that doesn't offend somebody.

[Duncan Grant]

80. This is an important exchange of ideas.

I appreciate the fact that you're bringing up the "what if" questions. We may not share the same position re: Ann Coulter but among reasonable people an exchange of ideas can occur. I'd like to extend a little empathy to you and receive the same in return.

Can we try this from a different angle? Let's consider Michelle Malkin, who is only 2nd to Ann Coulter in RW vitriol and opportunism.

Should we use ethnic or sexist epithets to point out her hypocrisy? Would Asian/Pacific Islanders have the right to do a double-take if they read threads here at DU which called her names (i.e. "Ann the Mann")? Would we tell them to get a thicker skin?

Granted, it's an extreme example, but if I called her a "race-betraying chink" (to point out her hypocrisy) would that be about her or about me? I say that would be all about me.

[UncleSepp]

84. Oh god, we displayed insufficient gratitude for his "defense"

Please. With defenders like you, who needs attackers?

[sui generis]

79. not to defend the practice BUT

think about it - any intended insult is anti-liberal if you boil it down. Any observation you make about an attribute of someone's personality is INTENDED to hurt. We're bad monkeys that way.

It's not transphobia, except in the most technical cutting of the term. It's just an attempt to belittle Ms. Coulter in a way that is as absurd as Ms. Coulters arguments about liberals.

I can't speak for everybody, but I say "retarded" quite often when I am sure I won't be offending someone who is learning challenged, and I myself have joked about Ms. Coulter having an adam's apple.

One of my best "misfit" friends in grade school was LD and another one autistic, and I wouldn't dream of hurting them with a word; it's as disconnected in my head as "idiot" or "moron" is (the original terms used for LD before it became un PC). I guess, I view usages like this as vernacular and I keep vernacular separate in my head from hatred and bigotry, which require intent. Mostly if there were active transphobia here, there would be a lot more threads dedicated to Ze Problem of Ze Trans People und Vat to Do About It.

I'm trying to fair here if it sounds like I'm rambling, but even when people say "that's so gay" it gives me a real chuckle because the only people in my circle who say that are actually simulataneously mocking people who say "that's so gay", at the same time as stating the obvious.

Okay, now I'll go read what everyone else said. I may change my mind.

[sui generis]

90. I haven't changed my mind.

but I have learned something.

Having any opinion but to agree with the OP means you're a bigot. Trying to explain yourself honestly means you're being patronizing.

Grow some thicker skin people! We're supposed to be the smart ones, at least smart enough to distinguish friend from foe.

I'm sticking by my commentary about intent. All other taking of offense is voluntary, and I've seen some brilliant volunteer work here, where no offense was intended.

Sheesh.

[Meldread]

81. Why is there even a debate? Why is this thread still alive?

This thread was created back on February the 11th, why is it still active? Why is there even still debate on this issue?

Maybe some people really just need a few hard knocks to the head. A group of people said, "Hey look, this offends me and hurts my feelings, please stop." Why is there debate on that? It's simple enough, if you are hurting someone by saying something, then you say, "Hey, look I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I'm sorry." Then you stop doing it. It really is that simple. There is no need for debate, no need for lengthy discussions, and there really isn't even a need for understanding. It's called manors and common courtesy when dealing with others, something most people should have learned as children but apparently didn't.

Now, if you'll excuse me I'm going to close this thread and hope to God it'll finally find it's way into the archives where it belongs, instead of knocking down more recent and relevant threads.

[Puglover]

88. Gotta weigh in here.

Where does PC stop anyway? A few years ago I joined a GLTB choir here in Minneapolis. There were many things that bugged me about it but the thing that finally made me say a big FUCK YOU to the PC crowd that seemed to run the place was...

We were doing a concert where the theme was war and violence throughout history. One of the period pieces we were doing was "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" This piece written I believe in the 1700-1800s. One of the lines graphically refers to a limbless veteran begging on a corner as looking like a "big bald chicken egg".
The PC crowd felt that these words COULD be hurtful to any disabled folks that MIGHT attend the concert and the words were changed to a less graphic description.

I was PISSED. The fucking POINT of the piece was to point out the horror of war and the PC crowd wanted to tidy up the words to protect god knows who.

I think too much PC paralyzes us. You're so boxed in by rules you can't move. I'm a gay man. Anyone of you could come and climb up on my desk and scream FAGGOT at me until your throat got raw and I wouldn't care. My self respect and self worth comes from deep inside of me and isn't subject to other peoples words. I would not refer to Ann Coulter as The Mann because I think there are much better insults to describe her. However I would be very surprised if many or any DUers are doing it because they think there is something wrong with the TS community.

[UncleSepp]

91. It's not about PC or about people who "might" be offended

It's about actual transgendered DUers who actually feel that DU is indifferent at best and hostile at worst to transgendered folk, because of its tolerance for insults based in a person's nonconformity to gender standards. It's about actual, real people who have said "please stop, this is hurtful to me personally" and who have been told, essentially, STFU and get over it.

When you ask "where does PC stop, anyway" in this context, it sounds like you're asking "just how much do I have to put up with?" It sounds as if transgendered people are beyond the limits of what you are willing to accept, or what anyone should be asked to accept. Screw us, huh? How long ago was it that you, as a gay man, were in that position of being beyond the pale? In most places, you still are.

We live in a world where there are few safe places for us. We live in a world where we can't take a piss without taking a risk of causing a scene, getting beaten up, arrested, or even worse. This really happens over such a simple thing as picking a bathroom. We live in a country where we can be denied insurance coverage for simple things like broken arms for being transgendered. Some of us live in states where we can be denied lifesaving treatment completely, where we are left to die of cancer because no one will treat our nonconforming bodies. Most of us live in states where we have do not have the right to keep a job or rent an apartment. Our suicide rates as a demographic group are astronomical. Our murder rates are also high; we are beaten, we are raped, we are seen as asking for it and we very often do not get anything approaching equal justice from a system that barely acknowledges our existence. Given all that, it would seem that a few insults on an online message board really shouldn't matter that much, but you know what? It does matter. It matters a lot that we can't even go into a liberal virtual space without having to either defend ourselves or meekly put up with the ignorant insults. It matters very much that even in the GBLT forum of such a website, our very real concerns are seen as "oversensitive" and "too PC".

Thought, or the lack of thought, leads to words, or to silence. Words, or silence, leads to action, or the lack of action. What kind of thoughts lead to using "tranny shemale" as an insult? Are those words that come from the thought that transfolk are as good as anyone else? What kind of actions come from those words? Would someone who finds it hilarious to speculate on someone's gender be motivated to act with kindness and respect toward a transwoman early in her transition, or would that person be more likely to smirk, remember the jokes, and treat that transwoman as "a man in a dress"?

If people here won't think enough to understand why what they're saying is hurtful, how can they be trusted by us to act when it is time to act? When a vote comes up for a ballot measure to grant protection from gender discrimination, can the "liberal" who makes the jokes about "Ann the Mann" be trusted to turn out and vote in support of our rights?

Maybe that's more than what you wanted to know. I suspect you have your opinions, and you probably don't care to change them. If that's true, well, then this is all worth just what you paid for it. Maybe someone else will see it. I don't know. Right now, I'm not sure I care either.

[Puglover]

92. Sui Generis sez it more eloquently then I can in his post #90.

I posted something I gave some thought to and you have it and me whittled down to "just how much do I have to put up with?" And "screw us"

For your info I have never insulted nor been a party to insulting a transgendered person. I have always marveled at the strength of people who can overcome the obstacles that transgendered people deal with.


As Sui said "learn to distinguish friend from foe.

[Meldread]

94. Very eloquent and well said.

I don't know what more to say than that, because you've left me at a loss for words. I believe everyone who believes it is "asking too much", should be required to read your post. In fact, every time we see "Ann the Mann" or other such insults we should Private Message the offenders with a link to this post.

You've hit the nail on the head with this remark: "It matters a lot that we can't even go into a liberal virtual space without having to either defend ourselves or meekly put up with the ignorant insults."

[Rowdyboy]

89. Its sickening and immature but what can you do? There are idiots here

that post "Bush is Gay" and think they're being extremely clever and cutting. Why they think calling him gay is an insult is pretty obvious. They think GLBTs are inferior and unworthy of any defense and, by their bigoted posts, we know who they are.

Generally, they're weeded out pretty quickly. Bigoted scum has a hard time hiding in a place like DU. Just like roaches, they're usually killed off pretty quickly.