Suggestions for dealing with the Democratic Party.

[Meldread]

I have been thinking about how to deal with the Democratic Party lately. As time goes by it becomes more and more obvious that we are being abandoned. I would love to leave the party and never look back, but sadly America is a two party system. I don't like it, but the Democratic Party has us by the nuts, and like it or not, they are going to drag us wherever the hell they want.

Obviously we can't leave the party because a third party isn't feasible. Not aiding the Democrats ensure that Republican's get elected which in turn ensures that their agendas get passed, which we KNOW for a fact doesn't include us.

So, I've been thinking about this dilemma and have come to a conclusion: We need a party within a party. We need to create a sub-party within the Democratic Party that will advocate and work for us. We can send our money and resources to them, and because they'd have the "D" next to their names it ensures that they'd get elected. We can battle anti-LGBT Democrats in the primaries.

Essentially, I'm saying screw the DNC, screw the DLC, screw everyone who isn't on our side - let's do our own thing under the Democratic banner, and if they don't like it - tough shit.

I say we reach out to Greens with this type of idea and try and bring them into the "party within a party", and while advocating for gay rights also advocate for the break down of the two party system. We could come up with something like the Green's "Ten Key Values", to show where we stand. Naturally, this idea would expand far beyond just LGBT rights, as there are many things the Democratic Party is awful on.

I don't see any other option for us. We can't go on with the status quo, but we can't leave either. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

[cyclezealot]

1. Despite its feeble leadership it has many strong members.

I can't abandon the good one's fighting for a progessive party. Like McKinney, Frank, Waters, Kucinich, and maybe Feingold. Fight for them and contribute to Move on to move the party to progressive positions. What choice do we have. Possibly work for electoral reform at the state level. Things like Instant RUnoff voting.

[Meldread]

6. That's my point.

By having a "party within a party" we won't be abandoning those that support our positions, we'd just be making their positions held by the majority of elected Democrats. Really, it's the equivalent of having our cake and eating it too. We'll have the ability to move the Democratic Party to the left, while at the same time using the non-progressive Democrats to fill congress until we can replace them.

[xchrom]

2. most true progressives have our backs.

i should think that picking out individuals -- that won't pull a kerry on us -- and supporting them would be terrific.

especially if it's coodinated and we can get enough money into individual campaigns to make a real difference.

and that we can do.

also, like the previous poster. supporting moveon is always a good idea.

hrc will come up with an organized idea and let us know as well. i'll go along with them.

[BR_Parkway]

3. Log Cabin Democrats? Sort of what it feels like, not that I disagree

with your OP in the least. I plan on picking and choosing my support much more carefully this year. The bulk of it will only go to candidates who speak clearly that my right to not be treated as a 2nd class citizen will not be infringed on by anyone else.

Other help will go where I think it can make the most difference in an individual race to gain us (Dems) seats

[Rowdyboy]

4. I did not become a Democrat because of the party's position on gay rights

I knew I was a Democrat long before I was even willing to admit that I was gay. I will remain a Democrat because the party remains at least marginally better than the alternative on issues important to me like economics, taxes, and civil liberties.

Living in Mississippi I've never even had a chance to vote for a pro-gay rights Democrat, so why do I continue to support a state party that doesn't vocally and openly support me? Because my sexuality is only one part of who I am-I'm also concerned about health care, and education and war and taxes and Republicans are WRONG on all those issues.

The concept of "reaching out to greens" nauseates me personally. I won't live long enough to see the damage done by Nader in 2000 corrected. I refuse to ever be part of any strategy that includes dividing the progressive movement in any way, any time, any how.

I can understand the outrage you younger guys feel but I simply don't share it. Democratic party "outreach" has never done a thing for me and I've never really expected it to. They have a hard enough time winning national elections without loudly endorsing gay rights issues. I can certainly understand that could be incredibly frustrating and I don't blame anyone for refusing to tolerate second rate treatment. If this one issue is enough to sour you on the whole party, I can offer you nothing but good will and best wishes.

If George Bush, Dennis Hastert and Sam Alito all endorsed gay marriage next week I would remain a Democrat. My political ideology goes far beyond the bedroom and I, for one, am first, last and always a Democrat...

[sui generis]

5. I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils though

If they can wait to support us, then they can wait for my vote. You can have a successful political career and be strongly pro-equality without our own damn party putting us back in the closet out of political expediency.

Voting is a statement, and so is not voting if it comes to that.

Texas voters recently passed their own anti-gay marriage amendment and our state has an appalling record on basic human rights issues going back several decades.

Almost every major elected position in the state is held by a wingnut Republican.

We could throw our hands up in despair as other dems have and do in other states and say "no pro-gay candidates can win in Texas" and just accept the fact that our issues should never be discussed.

But that is not true. Not even here in Texas.

There are openly gay legislators in the state assembly and on city councils and school boards throughout the state. Our Democratic representatives in Congress have done more than pay lip service to the issues that affect us. I am speaking mostly of Eddie Bernice Johnson and the recently redistricted out of office Martin Frost.

If candidates can go on record for equal rights in Texas and win -- they sure as hell can do it in Ohio, and get the open support of the DNC.

And we have a right to insist that they do.

To be sure, Republicans have garnered a lot of support by whipping their bigoted simple-minded simpletons into a frenzy over issues that affect them not one iota. But at least we are talking about the issues. If we just keep our mouths shut and don't make waves -- they win. No one ever discusses our issues so no one ever thinks about them and no one's opinion ever changes. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. No one can win in Ohio or anywhere else who comes out in favor of gay issues because no candidate will ever come out in favor of gay issues and it stays that way forever.

I used to be OK with settling for the lesser of two evils. I am not okay with it anymore.

[Rowdyboy]

9. You know, we're very much in agreement overall....

Please understand, my friend, that I have lived my entire life in the buckle of the Bible Belt. Its easy for me to let a candidate slide because there are literally no standards here to judge.

In Mississippi, every vote I've cast since 1972 has been for the "lesser of two evils". It can't be helped considering the candidate pool. There are no openly gay representatives here (at least that I've heard of). In NO way do I fault you for your feelings or actions on this issue because IMO you're basically correct. Its just that I view life from a very different perspective. I've been disappointed so many times I have a hard time getting excited about random gut-punches from the party...

I hope all you guys know how much I admire your enthusiasm and determination. Sometimes I read what I've written and I sound like I'm ancient. I don't always agree, but my respect for you all knows no bounds.

[thrift_store_angel]

15. I'm with Sui....

Posted by sui generis:
I used to be OK with settling for the lesser of two evils. I am not okay with it anymore.

Exactly.

I went to a lobby day meeting last week with representatives from my district to discuss the issue of marriage rights. Our democratic delegate, who voted with us to keep the amendment off the ballot in November told me straight out that it was all about politics and that when it came down to it "I am not going to be a hero" (ie I am not going to support you should this come up in a non-election year). Then he proceeded to tell me how much damage the g/l/b/t community was doing to the democratic party and that he didn't "know why you are doing this (the lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of state marriage laws), you are just going to lose in the end". Our state (Maryland) is considered one of the "bluer" states, yet I don't think he is anywhere near alone in his opinions.

If this is the kind of support the democratic party is giving to our community I honestly don't see much difference between getting screwed now, as the repugs want to do, or getting screwed later as the dems plan to do. Either way it is going to come down the same so I really don't see the point in drawing it out any longer than it has to be. Given the choice of voting for someone who is going to give lip service to my issues and vote against me in the end, or voting for someone who honestly believes in equality and by doing so putting someone in office who tells me up front they don't support me then I am going to go with the second option. The democratic party is doing the same thing to us as the repugs do to the fundies, "you have to vote for us because if you don't they will end up in office and you know what they will do". I refuse to surrender to their scare tactics.

It isn't just about g/l/b/t issues either, it is about everything. The democratic party of today is failing me on all the issues that are important to me. I used to be mad at the Nader supporters in the 2000 election but now I wonder would it have really been all that different? I am beginning to think they did the right thing and that I need to stop voting according to what I am expected to do and start voting according to my beliefs.

:rant:

[Meldread]

7. Sui generis about summed it up, but let me add...

Sui generis about summed up what I would like to say in response to your post, but let me add that I agree that there are many more things other than being pro-gay that makes a Democrat a Democrat. I agree with that 100%. I am not suggesting that something form and revolve solely around a single issue, that would be silly. However, I do consider it an important issue for myself and millions of other Americans.

I disagree on your point that being gay only effects your life in the bedroom. I don't know how you live your life, but I believe that gay issues effect more than individual people - they effect families. LGBT issues are not individual issues - they are family issues. Gay marriage, for example, doesn't just effect the two people getting married it effects any children they may eventually have or bring into the relationship. Laws that continue to allow job discrimination against LGBT people effect families as well - children and partners can lose their healthcare and income. There are survivors benefits, social security, taxes... the list can go on and on...

Gay rights isn't about "me" it's about those around me. I personally wouldn't be effected by anti-marriage laws if I never had any intentions of getting married and starting a family. So why should I care? I personally wouldn't be effected by job discrimination if I choose to run my own business. So why should I care? I care because there are people out there with children who are put into foster care or are forced to live with a relative because the person they've known their entire life as "Mommy" can't legally marry their other "Mommy". That's why I care. I care because there are families out there without health insurance because an employer decided they didn't want a "dirty faggot" working for him. I care because it would be inhuman *not* to care.

Perhaps that is the reason I find it hard to fathom why the Democratic Party cannot fall behind gay rights, because it is the moral thing to do. I don't believe gay rights is a losing issue. I live in the State of Virginia where even most of the Democrats are anti-gay. I know people who don't even use the word gay, preferring instead to refer to anyone gay as "Sodmites". But you know what? I also know a helleva lot more people who don't give two shits one way or another. For everyone person who wouldn't vote for a candidate based on their support of gay marriage there are fifteen others who don't give a shit. The majority of the people that I know and talk to believe gay relationships should be recognized under the law - and the poll numbers out there support that. They just don't support "marriage". Do you know why? Because they are under the impression that gay marriage would force churches to marry gays. I have consistently heard that. Oh, they don't "support the gay lifestyle" and they consider themselves "Christians" but they would gladly support civil unions because they don't want the goverment to descriminate against gays, but they also don't want the government telling them what to believe. ...and you know what? After explaining to them the difference between civil marriage and religious marriage at least 80% of them walk away either supporting gay marriage or seriously considering it.

Do you know why Democrats keep losing on the gay marriage issue? It's not because people hate gay people, it's not because of the big bad Christian Right, it's because the majority of the people in this country suffer from what is called ignorance. The reason they suffer from that condition is because the Democratic Party has not taken the incentive to educate the public on the issue, instead they've taken the tactic of retreating from it or siding against it.

...and do you know the sad part? The sad part is the Democratic Party is alienating people from it's base and trying to play a game of triangulation with two sections of the American Public, one of which doesn't really give a shit one way or another, while the other wouldn't vote for a Democrat to the left of Zell Miller, and even then would still categorize Zell as being "a bit to the left". I guarantee you, in 99.9% of the cases someone who is going to vote against gay marriage is a solid Republican Voter, who wouldn't give a Democratic Candidate a second look if they started burning gay people at the stake on a daily basis while simultaneously beheading doctors who perform abortions. To those type of people, having a "D" next to your name is an automatic disqualifier.

So I suppose my question is, why does the Democratic Party continue to do something that flies in the face of common sense logic? My only guess is that they live in a bubble and that they are out of touch with average American People - and I have a hunch that I am 100% correct. However, even if I am wrong, I am also smart enough to know that if you are good at your job as a politician you should have the ability to convince people to do and support anything you want. We've been doing it for years with the Military, and believe it or not the military's message isn't "send us your children so we can get them killed", even though that is the truth of what is going on.

If we can learn anything from history, it's that people have constantly been coerced into supporting people that were bad for them and who were more than willing to do immoral things. If we've learned anything from our present circumstances with the Bush Administration, it's that the same mentality that existed back then still exists today. Why then, can't we tap into that, but instead of using it for evil use it for good instead?

[Rowdyboy]

10. If there was a "Greatest Posts" forum, this one should be on it....

First, thank you so much for giving so much thought to your reply. You could have simply flamed me and forgotten it. Instead, you took the time and trouble to engage me and I thank you.

I apologize for equating being gay to "bedroom behavior". I'm old enough to know better. While in many ways it is still an issue of privacy, that extends far beyond the sexual act. I know that and I regret my poor choice of words. And the issues that you use to make your point (survivor benefits, soc sec, etc) are increasingly important to me at this stage in my life.

"Gay rights isn't about "me" it's about those around me. I personally wouldn't be effected by anti-marriage laws if I never had any intentions of getting married and starting a family. So why should I care? I personally wouldn't be effected by job discrimination if I choose to run my own business. So why should I care? I care because there are people out there with children who are put into foster care or are forced to live with a relative because the person they've known their entire life as "Mommy" can't legally marry their other "Mommy". That's why I care. I care because there are families out there without health insurance because an employer decided they didn't want a "dirty faggot" working for him. I care because it would be inhuman *not* to care."

Damn, man, you're good. How could I possibly disagree with one word of that? You're very talented.

"The majority of the people that I know and talk to believe gay relationships should be recognized under the law - and the poll numbers out there support that. They just don't support "marriage". Do you know why? Because they are under the impression that gay marriage would force churches to marry gays."

Sadly, I know that you're correct here. Many people who bristle at "gay marriage" have no problem with equal rights. They just don't want t to be called marriage. I don't care, personally, if I had equal rights but sadly that has never been the case.

I agree with this...

"Do you know why Democrats keep losing on the gay marriage issue? It's not because people hate gay people, it's not because of the big bad Christian Right, it's because the majority of the people in this country suffer from what is called ignorance"

But this leaves me cold....

"The reason they suffer from that condition is because the Democratic Party has not taken the incentive to educate the public on the issue, instead they've taken the tactic of retreating from it or siding against it."

My argument is that gay marriage is a very recent discussion topic. Democrats haven't held any power since 2000, an only a touch since 1994. The party never had a chance to do the right thing. Had Dems been in power would they have done the right thing? Probably not. But at least it was a possibility.

Your last several paragraphs are particularly thought provoking and really made me think. The Democratic party that I love is the party of my youth from 1972 when I turned 18 to 1994 when the Gingrich revolution hit. The party that I grew up with was strong, unabashedly Democratic and willing to make a scene. Many years have past and I'm still making excuses for a party that hasn't existed for over a decade. Perhaps I need to rethink some things.

Again, thank you for the dialog. I hope I never become to old to reassess my basic beliefs. After all, keeping an open mind is really what its all about.

[Meldread]

13. Thank you.

Thank you, that is all anyone can ask of someone else - for them to reassess their basic beliefs. For what it is worth, I know how you feel at least to a degree. Believe me when I say Mississippi isn't any better or worse than Virginia when it comes to LGBT folks, especially in the southern part of the state. Tim Kaine was just elected here, a man I voted for - a man who when talking about the anti-gay marriage ban entering onto the ballot was more concerned for straight people than gay people.

I am well aware that there are times that we must, unfortunately, fall on our swords and elect someone who is just as bad as the Republican when it comes to LGBT rights. However, I believe as long as we are determined to change that - eventually - a difference can be made.

People always resist change, but I firmly believe that most people can eventually change. We know it is possible for LGBT people in other countries to live open and happy lives, and there isn't any thing genetically different from the people over there compared to the people over here. We know it is genetically possible for Americans to accept us as equal citizens, and as long as we know that, the only thing that stands between us and victory is time. How long will it be before we eventually succeed?

Look out across America and you will notice that with each passing generation we grow closer and closer to our goal. My generation is more accepting than yours was and the next generation will be even more accepting. The world that I grew up in seems to be fading into the past, hell... it's like stepping into an alternate dimension. As long as the young keep getting older, and the old keep on dying and we keep gaining ground with the young - victory is certain. Even if it doesn't happen in our lifetimes, we can die smugly knowing that the seeds that we have planted will eventually grow into trees that bear fruit of equality and true freedom for future generations.

[Lisaben2619]

14. Because we let them

"So I suppose my question is, why does the Democratic Party continue to do something that flies in the face of common sense logic?"

Because our community votes and gives to Dem candidates and then when they stab us in the back, we act like abused spouses: forgiving and letting the abuser back in the house because we think we have no other choice. It's "political codependence and it seems to be an illness.

Quit voting for them and quit giving them money. They don't care about you.

[insleeforprez]

8. Exactly

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

11. We are past the point of partisan solutions to our nation's problems!

The American Republic is long dead! It is sad to see the Democratic Party, with some very notable and courageous exceptions, become a party to its burial. The men and women and gave us the Republic wanted a government that was limited in scope and respectful of their rights, including the rights of the minorities (political, religious, social). They feared a monarchy as much as they feared a dictatorship of a majority. They most definitely did not want the state to impose sectarian views as they had seen happening in Europe! They wanted to be left alone to pursue their own happiness, relying in government and in their collective efforts for those things that as individuals they could not accomplish on their own. Those days are over!

Dictatorship is the only way to describe the Bush Administration. In a few short years a significant number of Americans have embraced an absolute monarchy, a monarchy without a throne or crown. The Presidency under Bush has absorbed all the powers that the Framers of the Constitution had to painstakingly divided between three branches of government. The Presidency has claimed the power to start wars without Congressional approval, to detain people indefinitely without charges, to torture and abuse detainees with impunity, and to assassinate whoever they want at any time or place, including American soil. Absolutism at home has led to militarism abroad, the United States joining a long list of aggressor states that include such recent notables as Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, and in an ironic twist, Saddam's Iraq.

Many of our friends speak of Democratic chances in 2006 and 2008, yet they ignore the well documented record that Republicans have of ballot fraud and voter disenfranchisement. There is little evidence that things will be different in the upcoming midterm elections or in the 2008 Presidential race. Elections in America have become the mirror image of elections held in any authoritarian regime in the Third World. It is only a matter of time before opposition candidates are found laying on a ditch, hands tied behind the back, a bullet shot to the back of the head.

Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures, and this is one of those times in which we face an unpalatable choice: resistance or exile!

If we choose the path of resistance we must take every opportunity to publicly and loudly oppose every action the Bush dictatorship takes. Our opposition must always firm, resolute, and peaceful! Even a hint of violence would give the Bush dictatorship a pretext to impose more draconian measures on the American people. We must deny the Bush tyranny that pretext by adopting the tactics used by Gandhi in India and Martin Luther King in the US. Unlike Gandhi and Dr. King, we will not prevail in our struggle. Imperial nations such as the United States have always succeeded in crushing internal opposition. Their collapse was always brought about by a combination of external opposition and their folly in believing in their own invisibility.

Exile is always an option, and in the case of those under persecution such as the LGBT community, it may be the only viable option that is now available. To those that dismiss exile as leftist paranoia, I can only suggest that they consider the fate of the German Jews that waited until it was too late for them to escape the Holocaust. Do not make the same mistake!

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, Lord Acton was quoted as saying. To Acton's words we must add that absolute power leads to absolute cruelty, as we have seen in the way American troops have treated the Iraqi population. Those same troops will be used on American soil against the American people! If you doubt, do a Google on Posse Comitatus, and on the current efforts by the Bush dictatorship to do away with its remnants in order to "protect us."

The end will not be a happy one for any of us!

[Meldread]

12. Calm down, for a moment and think of a solution.

I know there is a dark cloud looming over the United States and the foreseeable future. Everyone knows that, even those who aren't informed about what is going on.

Abandoning the Democratic Party is not a viable option. Were there a viable alternative out there, believe me I don't think many people would like to remain on this sinking ship. If the Democratic Party picks up any victories in 2006 and 2008, it won't be because of some great strategy or vision, it will be because of the Republican Party's ineptitude. If the Party doesn't change course soon, it's going to end up sinking to the bottom of the lake. That's just a fact.

That is why I believe the only viable solution is to grasp the remnants of what is left, stake our claim, call it our own, and defend it with our life. I do not believe protesting in the streets works. That is something for the old days. If your protest and message isn't getting out in the media and people aren't listening, you are wasting your time and energy. It is a symbolic thing at best and a waste of time at worst.

Our efforts need to be focused on real and concrete change. We need to undermine the efforts of our enemies by spreading our message - house to house - just like in the old days. We need to direct people to websites and places where they can be informed. Were they can find the truth and then find out what they can do about it. We have to undermine the efforts of the mass media at every turn while at the same time trying to put our views INTO the mass media.

We have to select a few key battleground states and fight there, and then eventually expand outward. Anyone who believes that the "take the battle to all the states, everywhere" strategy works are fools. Unless, of course, they want to be spread thin and have their message become irrelevant.

Anyway, the above are scattered thoughts, but the point is - don't become a chicken little - because even if the sky *is* falling, running around yelling about it doesn't do any good unless you are also telling everyone to run for cover. I am not trying to be critical or harsh, I am trying to be rational.