Atheists are Ripping a Page from the Gay Manual

[kweerwolf]

The culture wars may be getting a new combatant. Atheists are saying they have no voice in American life and claim they are discriminated against if they bring their beliefs out of the closet. Dave Silverman of the American Atheists says it amounts to second-class citizenship.

“The atheist who doesn’t say he’s an atheist – a closet atheist – lives life not telling his friends or his family who he is or what he is. The outed atheist faces hatred. He faces certainly intolerance in this country.”

If it sounds familiar, you're right. The new atheist offensive uses the familiar tactics gays have been using for decades. Silverman admits the template approach is no accident.

"We're going to take the best things that they did, and we’re going to emulate them so that we can achieve the same results. We’re going to learn from them."

http://www.family.org/cforum/fnif/news/a0039614.cfm

[babylonsister]

1. How do you feel about that? I think if the 'fight' can be joined,

it wouldn't be bad. But for a religious gay person, this might not sit too well. But what the hell do I know?:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

4. I've always believed that we were fighting for the same things.

And I cannot stomach the so-called liberals who would leave any one of us behind.

[babylonsister]

9. I don't have the religious gene and parents never

inspired that (obviously), but I know religion can make sane people crazy!

[beam me up scottie]

10. It can make them do

some terrible things, too, as history illustrates.

People should think for themselves, if they did, the fundies would lose their power.

[babylonsister]

11. Conversely, if fundies thought for themselves, they

would gain their own 'personal' power. I think, once you have that as an adult, you will be more inclined to think independently and not be so influenced.

[unschooler]

34. A religious gay person of conscience would defend the minority,

regardless of his/her own religious affiliation. Fighting for the rights of atheists and other "religious" minorities isn't just for people who are members of minority religions, just as fighting for the rights of sexual minorities isn't just for GLBT people. Straight Christians of conscience can, should and do fight this battle as well.

But for a religious gay person, this might not sit too well.

[UncleSepp]

39. Amen, or something!

Thank you and giant hugs or beers or whatever! A person of conscience defends freedom period, not freedom to do as he or she sees fit.

[darkmaestro019]

2. They're right.

I keep saying that we really need to start leaning on this "pursuit of happiness" thing...

I also keep saying that if ALL the "minorities" united against the "majority" the math would force us to switch who is called what. (sigh) I just love the idea of a great big teeming mass of fearless, joyous, brown and gay and poor and vegan and non-materialist and non-beautiful and female and non-judeo-christian religious or nonreligious, all together, quietly walking--not marching-just walking, perhaps with a zillion signs that all say "YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF ME." Fat white rich men with gray hair and suits that cost more than I made last year staring down in defeated horror from the ivory towers that have become their prisons.

(sigh) One day. On that day we should restart the calendar as Year One. The year of the advent of homo sentiens.

Welcome, atheists, from a non-Jud-C queer that is glad to have you. Any enemy of my enemy is my friend. Would you like tea, coffee, a beer? : )


edit: added a few to my list. missing a great many, I am sure, but my intent is to include EVERYONE but "Them"

EDIT again: I drive frequently from where I live to Cleveland and on an overpass type thingy on the way is graffiti that appeared just before we invaded Iraq that says NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR. It always makes me smile. And that seems to be what it really comes down to; two classes, Them, and Us. Those who want to enslave, and those They want to enslave. If we united, all of us that they wish to use like any other resource that can be exploited......

[beam me up scottie]

7. Pay attention!

Most of us have been here with you the whole time. :hug:

[darkmaestro019]

16. You are right, and I am happy to be wrong about that......

but sometimes I convince myself I am only hallucinating people that are of like-mind (if not identical mind, lol) to comfort myself. Thank you for giving me something to file in my wonderful, all too empty You Were Wrong folder. (No arrogance intended : )

[BiggJawn]

24. The "Pursuit of Happiness"

I was told once that I have the Right to PURSUE happiness, but CATCHING it was by NO means guarranteed by the Constitution.

Think that was a dope-smoking-ReTHUGlican-Libertarian who told me that.

[beam me up scottie]

3. Love their version of who deserves civil rights.

The majority, of course.

Melissa Fryrear of the ex-gay ministry Love Won Out expects that will include atheists to proclaiming their beliefs to be "mainstream."

"And probably will use language and stories and people with real faces to draw on the emotions of the American public to say, 'oh, this is just another group of people.' "

Fryrear predicts atheists will repeat their message until the culture is desensitized.

Focus on the Family Institute professor, Chris Leland, thinks atheists, like homosexuals, may have a distorted view of civil rights.

"If we’re violating their rights and their right to choose, then hey, we’ve crossed the line. But for the most part they’re demanding rights of the majority when they’re not."

Oh, the horror of our culture being desensitized to atheists and gays!

Looks like they're on to us.

[darkmaestro019]

6. Again, I must pound my point into the ground.

Are they REALLY the majority? Or are they just the loudest?

I was close friends with a girl that They'd have claimed as Theirs anytime in my last real job. She was fearful of anything occult and squintingly vaguely supportive of Bush--and yet, when we sat outside alone and smoked, she agreed with most of the "unAmerican" stuff that came out of my mouth. She wasn't Theirs. She'd just been deafened by Their noise for so long that you had to be Theirs to be good, and her own (correct, imo) opinion of herself as good and normal that she thought she was one of Them by, default.

I'm explaining this badly, but one does what one can, lol.

[beam me up scottie]

8. When it comes to numbers, they are.

But they're wrong about everything else, the Constitution exists to protect the minority from tyranny by the majority.

[darkmaestro019]

12. (sigh) I'm sorry. You may be right and I may be wrong

but I still believe that if you added up EVERYONE that They currently hate, disapprove of, whatever, all of them, total, into one column, and added the Correct And Acceptable WASP-with-money-and-bushloving types that the non-Citizen column would be bigger. By a lot.

I think they have more money and they are louder and better at tantrum, and that they have the ability to SCARE a bunch of the minority into faking membership or touting allegiance to the majority by virtue of those two facts: richer and noisier. I think they are able to intimidate many people who don't really "qualify" by Their narrow ugly definition of good into pinning on one of the Goodguy badges--were the Jewish councils that governed the ghettoes really Nazis? (Fk Godwin's Law and all who adhere to it.....)

No one wants to be seen as "the bad guy" so a lot of people who belong in Our camp are hanging around Their camp. Perhaps out of fear, perhaps out of internalized self-hate, perhaps because they were miseducated to believe that they really are doing the right thing.

And if you are right, and I am wrong, then frankly I don't think it should mean anything. (Of course in the world we are in, it does, in practice)

Insects outnumber just about every other species on the planet, why don't we arrange it to suit them? (lol)

If you are right, I thought it was the point of this American experiment--to protect the various minorities against (forgive me, I dunno who I'm quoting and I have limited computer time so I am not gonna google) "the tyranny of the majority"

Everyone used to think the world was flat, and that didn't make it so.

I am talkative tonight, lonely and in wish of somewhere to socialize. I'm only saying what I think, and I mean no hurt feelings or irritation to anyone. Peace, all, and may you have fun no matter how hard They try to stop you. : )

Edit: random things I missed Edit again: redundancy and other messes and I am still not getting what I want to get across. And spelling. Oh well. Win some, lose some. : )

[beam me up scottie]

15. I was just picking on you!

Silly!

Heh heh, you don't know me, but ask around, if I was angry, you'd know it!

And while technically, your math may be correct about how many non-hating people live in this country, it's the minority that's making the laws right now.

Seriously, I have many gay allies, some atheists, some not, but we have always agreed that our cause is one and the same and that we're fighting intolerance on the left as well as the right.

Honestly, looking at the prejudice we experience even on a liberal board such as DU, do you really think the majority is enlightened enough to to stand up to the zealots on our behalf?

Unfortunately, there are plenty here who have proclaimed their intention to leave GLBT people and atheists out of the party because our issues are unpopular and hurt the Dems.


Lonely for like-minded souls?

Dude, if you knew where I lived, you'd realize that's like a badge of honor in my world.:P

[darkmaestro019]

19. re: prejudice

The number of people on my ignore list for various forms of calling her "Mann Coulter" shows me that nowhere is really safe. I think They do this on purpose; if we are arguing among ourselves about who is browner, less Jesus-oriented, gayer, or has the wrong crotch attachments, we will be too busy to see who is really inhaling all that should be free and shared to move humanity forward.

I like you. And you get a star for your username. Did you cry when Scotty walked onto the holoversion of the old Enterprise? (I did. Like a baby. Flapping for someone to bring me tissues and all. It was so good. And I cried when he left and posted LJ bits about how he is the reason I care about trying to fix things, whether I suck at it or not : )

I am lonely for like-souled minds, maybe. And I've lived mostly in either FL or OH, so I know, what it takes to be what you are.

What scares me about the minority ruling the majority is my firm belief in a generalized sense of Darwinian evolution. Dear gods, might it be "better" to be the sort of creature who is willing to trample any and all in your quest to get on top?

Then I realize, no. If that were true there would never have been any tribes.

Forgive me mods if I am breaking a rule, but I am at [e-mail] or aim oberonalastair (though not much of either for a week or two till we get various connectivity issues straightened out) If you, beam me up scottie, or anyone else wants to socialize, to fill my lonely need, lol, or perhaps fill a little of your own, feel free.

Thank you, beam me up, for chasing me. : )

[beam me up scottie]

21. I've got you in my Opera notes,

if you want to delete your info.

If you like, come check us out at NG, in my sig line.
I've been neglecting my blog lately, but the good people who post there welcome people like us.
We've got a motley crew, to be sure, but we have fun.

I did cry during that scene, and more than a few others.

I really really like you.
You're passionate and funny.
You sound like someone I would love to be around all the time.

Why haven't we met before?

[darkmaestro019]

14. You beat me to it

re: tyranny, majority. And that's exactly why They, in addition to maintaining what I firmly believe is the fiction that they ARE the majority, are busy dismantling the Constitution. I hope to fk I am right about this, intuition, as to who really has the numbers. If not, I hope I am right about this intuition as to who REALLY has the intelligence/innovation/adaptation advantage, for the sake of what the human race will eventually become.

[beam me up scottie]

18. After the last couple of nights on DU,

I'm hardly wearing rose colored glasses.

But I do know that many non-gay people and non-atheists are willing to stand by us.

We should encourage the ones who are in our corner.

[darkmaestro019]

20. We must do it especially, for the sake of those that SHOULD be

in our corner, and are not, by damage or fear or delusion. They are victims, too, badly so, holding knives to their own throats and proud of it. That is no position for any creature made of starstuff to be forced into. It is ignoble and disgusting and evil.

[beam me up scottie]

22. Yes!

And I, for one, am willing to personally beat some sense into them.

I won't enjoy it too much, I promise.

[sui generis]

26. so the majority gets different rights than the minority?

that's the way things should be?

Wow. That's stage four stupid - terminal and there's no cure for that illness. We'll try to get them on a brain transplant list or something.

[Erika]

5. And South Dakota has outlawed abortions

Rape and incest victims will be forced to carry the child.

There's a lot more against W's fundie America, than is for it.

[dsc]

13. I am not sure I would look at our current state of momentum

and wish to emmulate that. But heck, welcome aboard.

[beam me up scottie]

17. SNORT!

Check out the R&T forum sometime, but bring cast iron underpants, you'll need them!

We have to defeat the intolerance on our side of the fence before we can take on the rest of the country.

If the elite Dems don't want us embarrassing them, they should pay more attention to what we're saying.

[NMMNG]

23. LOL

Try being lesbian and atheist. It's craploads more fun.

[xchrom]

25. this coming out thing is catching on!

[Goblinmonger]

27. I'm am more than happy to fight the fight with you

I think I have been for years. I certainly think being atheist puts me a rung or two higher than being GLBT but the same falls down the ladder on us, you just get a bigger load.

[Occulus]

28. This REALLY pisses me off.

First- I'm somewhat insulted that this thread is in this forum. In NO way are atheists treated like gay people, here, or anywhere.

Second, they're adding to the misconception that being gay is a choice. No true. RELIGION (or the lack thereof) is a choice! In short, atheists trying this are being disingenuous at best... and adding to MY problems in the long run at the worst.

This is just disgusting.

[beam me up scottie]

33. Atheism is NOT a choice,

anymore than being gay is.

I am no more capable of believing in deities than you are capable of becoming heterosexual.

I can't believe I'm finding ignorance and intolerance HERE, of all places.

[UncleSepp]

38. After a little thought, I think I agree with you

It's entirely possible that some people's brains are not wired to have the religious experience. Certainly, people's brains are wired for different degrees of pattern matching, with those who believe in the paranormal rating higher on false positives for pattern detection and those who do not rating higher for false negatives. Ability (or susceptibility) to religious or spiritual belief may very well be partly neurologically determined, in addition to cultural and familial influence.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the right of an individual to live his or her life as he or she sees fit, so long as his or her choices do not limit the choices of another nor bring harm to another. I think we can all get behind that.

[unschooler]

40. I think what BMUS was getting at was that many atheists feel they have

"awakened" intellectually in the process of shedding their religious beliefs and that they can no more go back to believing in a deity than anyone else can go back to believing the world is flat. It simply wouldn't be intellectually honest.

Belief/unbelief is often discovered or recognized rather than chosen.

[UncleSepp]

42. That makes sense, too... you can't un-see what you've seen

Whether it's seeing the strings holding up the puppet and not believing in the magic, or whether it's having the unexplained spiritual experience and not believing in a strictly material world, you can't un-see what you've seen without fracturing your own mind.

[unschooler]

43. Exactly.

:toast:

[Occulus]

44. Now that I read the subthread, I'm kinda torn

On the one hand, I can understand how someone who feels they have "intellectually awakened"- a wonderfully colorful phrase, by the way- would feel they wouldn't have a "choice" to go "back". I personally wouldn't ask that of them.

On the other hand, one decides to believe or not believe every step of the way, and to illustrate that that even happen while remaining in the very same religion, there are an awful lot of "cafeteria christians" out there. Additionally, there are lots and lots of people who have either changed their religion or renounced religion in general. In those respects it is a choice.

However, in the very strictest sense, religion is not biologically determined, which is how I define 'choice' as it relates to biological functions such as sexual activity. In that way, one's religion is not a choice.

I'll take back the "this REALLY pisses me off" part, though. On further thought, that's no longer the case.

[unschooler]

35. Wouldn't wanna add to your problems....

Better be careful. If you start defending those -- eeeeww -- religious minorities, somebody might think you're one of them!!! :scared:

[BeeBee]

29. I am gay and an atheist

I am very out as a gay man but still a bit closeted as an atheist! I think that comes from growing up in Utah in a Mormon family. It's kind of funny--easier to be gay than atheist. I think we need all the help we can get on both sides.

[Exiled in America]

30. I'll take their word for it, but I've never seen it.

My best friend for ten years and my other very close friends are atheists, and it comes up occaisionally from time to time. No one has ever cared, and I live in Idaho.

My friend's even got the "atheist" sticker on his car - he's never had anyone say anthing to him about it, so he says.

Also, are Atheists being denied the right to marry, or adopt children, or conduct their personal sexual lives in the manner that they choose?

[transeo]

31. For everyone questioning this

1. They never said they have struggled against the same amount of discrimination as LGBT folk.
2. They are honoring us by recognizing that we have made great strides and that our approach has worked, even if we have not finished yet.

I'm shocked that some people seem so offended. For crying out loud, they simply recognized a strategy that has accomplished a lot in a relatively short period of time and want to follow in our footsteps. What the problem? :toast:

[beam me up scottie]

32. Thank you.

I would like to add a reminder to look at WHO exactly is saying that we are emulating homosexuals.

We have ALWAYS had to struggle for our rights, in some states, atheists are still not able to hold public office.

This is not a new fight for us, we've been up against the same revolting discrimination that is used to neutralize the voices of ALL minorities.

Ignoring or minimizing the plight of others is the work of fundamentalists and bigots.

I would NEVER do that to someone else.

On the contrary, I don't hesitate to call attention to the hateful prejudice directed at GLBT people.

If you doubt my word, see for yourself:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=477626&mesg_id=477774

Let's leave the intolerance to them.

They wrote the book, after all.

[unschooler]

36. Excellent point, transeo. At least we're both seen as major threats in

the RW's "Culture War." We should be congratulating each other!

[ThomCat]

41. Well said. Also, many of THEM are also US.

Of course glbt athiests are going to see the connections and share the tactics.

[freestyle]

37. No one owns the struggle for freedom and justice

June Jordan has made the point better than I ever could.

"Freedom is indivisible or it is nothing at all besides sloganeering and temporary, short-sighted and short-lived advancement for a few. Freedom is indivisible, and either we are working for freedom or you are working for for the sake of your self-interests and I am working for mine."
June Jordan