Bashing gay marriage

[William769]

Question: If a straight person, such as your friend, your brother or mother, tells you they love you but they oppose your right to get married, are they guilty of gay bashing?

Headlines screaming of gay bashings — literally brutal beatings of gay men, lesbians and transgender people, oftentimes by strangers —shock us with images of blood and violence.

The recent savage beatings of gays on the Caribbean island of St. Maarten and in São Paulo, Brazil, remind us of the stark reality that our very lives are sometimes in danger.

So what about our friends and family members, those supposedly closest to us, who say, "You know, we support gay rights, but marriage is just going a bit too far. That's a religious institution. Go with civil unions. Marriage really isn't for gays."

http://www.washblade.com/blog/index.cfm?type=blog&start=5/1/06&end=5/4/06

:toast: Buddy.

[Nobody]

1. I love you but only your siblings get to

sit down to turkey dinner on Thanksgiving. You have to come and watch, but you mustn't eat anything. Not even a cookie or a roll. Nothing at all for you.

But don't forget I love you.

[darkmaestro019]

4. That's creepy.......I dreamed once

that I went back to my parents' house and they were having this big dinner but told me there wasn't enough for me...my sibs and all his friends were there and I was packing up stuff of mine that was still there and could smell all this food...

uh, sorry to be gothy, but yeah, that's exactly the mood, and the dream was probably in reference to something along these lines. that you're always, less-than.

scuse ramble. hiya. : )

[willing dwarf]

6. Not creepy but natural

The meal is symbolic of communion, shared expereince, and your dream suggested that you feared being cut off from the shared community of your family, and -- to put it into symbolic terms-- the shared sacraments that transform the ordinary aspects of life into something holy.

I think it's a perfect image for this discussion. If we liberals had energy and courage to take on Gay marriage, a great commercial in support would be a loving family gathering, and one person (or couple) not being welcome at the table. It would hit home for people.

Holding up a mirror to Americans, articulating America's dream of herself, freedom,tolerance, liberty, and then using that mirror to show how she is not yet living the dream...that's what would move the American psyche forward.

[Nobody]

19. Not creepy at all. It's about fellowship and community

Sharing a meal is one of the most basic forms of welcome. You can invite someone to your home, but making them stand by while everyone else eats is hardly welcoming.

Your dream was spot on.

[ThomCat]

23. That's pretty much accurate.

Good analogy

[xchrom]

2. no church, that doesn't want to

will HAVE to marry gay people.

there are churches out there that will and WANT to marry gay people.

[DRoseDARs]

3. Except it was the religious types that redefined "marriage"...

Marriage was first and foremost since ancient times an economic contract between two clans to secure peace and property. "God" and unfortunately "love" had little to do with the "institution" until much later in our history.

[willing dwarf]

5. Tolerance should be a synonym for civility

Seems to me that consciusness grows slowlyAnd for some people, the expectation that "normal" be exactly what they grew up with or what they are comfortable with is very high. Not everyone is going to be at the same level of acceptance of difference on any issue. It takes personal experience, and the right to learn and develop compassion and understanding in a tolerant environment.

I think if you set the bar too low on what is considered "gay bashing" you risk being shrill or whiny and people tuning out or becoming more intolerant.

On the other hand, if we can develop and environment where tolerance =civility, then we can be sure that the dialogue continues and that acceptance of the reality of gay marriage can be fostered.

[Clovis Sangrail]

7. Answer: No (IMHO)

They're guilty of stupidity or of being assholes - not gay bashing.
The savage beatings you mention... those are gay bashing.

Any gay person who has "friends" that tell them this really needs to reevaluate those relationships.
Family... you're kinda stuck with them. :(

[SunDrop23]

8. I was thinking along those lines...

I would say they are being intolerant, moreso than bashing (in this specific instance).

[Occulus]

14. Whether it is 'bashing' or not depends on how it's done, though

For example, kicking an honor roll, NHS member, clean criminal record, very talented musician child out of one's house and into the rain, and later yanking all college funding, because that child is gay could be a little physhologically damaging.

I don't have 'old college buddies'; they made sure to do it to me early so I didn't have any support network but them, and it was either move back into that environment, after getting kicked out in the first place, or be homeless. None of the friends I grew up with know who I really am anymore; I had to walk away from all of them to deal with the situation I found myself in when that happened.

I don't really have anyone at all I can go to when I need to talk to someone I can trust. Every tie of love I had with my family- except for my sister, who I rarely see or talk to anyway because of our individual schedules- got ripped to shreds, and when all was said and done, I found I had a huge, gaping, raw hole in my heart from where the biggest part of it got gouged out. They broke for me every dream I had, from the time I figured out I had musical talent... the which they had known about and not informed me of from the time I was five. The whole time I was a child, I felt like I couldn't do anything right, because although everyone important to me knew exactly where my real talents were, they each went out of their way to keep that from me.

I figured it out for myself, and then they turned and tore it all down and in the process made me ultimately feel ashamed I ever tried in the first place; I today feel like every moment I ever spent rehearsing, performing, composing, and so on was a complete waste of time. I didn't get to be a 'normal' teen, not because I was gay, but because I was dedicated to music to the point that I didn't have time to participate in other things. I knew what I wanted to do with my life very early compared to my peers, and I'm pretty sure at this point they (my parents and my peers both) bitterly resented that.

HORRORS! that someone gay could be so good at anything.

I can't even begin to describe what it's like to live with that sort of past. Not one single day goes by that all of that doesn't cross my mind in some way or other, and I simply can't help it- nobody can help what causes this or that memory to bubble up from one's subconscious!

So, I guess whether things like this are considered 'bashing' is purely subjective. Yes, physically beating someone up because they're gay is bashing, and we all agree on that. But what about the sort of mental abuse that turns one into an emotional cripple? What about the sort of treatment that leaves one unable to truly trust anyone, even himself? What of the complete loss of self-esteem and self-confidence, to the point that someone who used to be able to perform in front of tens of thousands of people at a time doesn't even want to go out to the bar- at all?

From my own personal experiences, that sort of bashing is far more damaging than simply beating someone up because they're gay (edit: for the record, I haven't actually been beat up, physically, for being gay). I've had to live with these moments in my past for a long, long time now, and please believe me when I say the wounds never really heal. Time doesn't do much of anything for this, not when those involved continually twist the knife (examples: giving one child thousands of dollars worth of child care a year, but requiring another child, the gay one, to sign a contract for a few hundred bucks to get some help getting an infected, impacted wisdom tooth pulled out, or refusing to follow through on a IOU given as a birthday gift over ten years ago).

The pain persists. It waxes, it wanes, and sometimes it doesn't hurt at all... but, like the moon, it will return eventually. It's only a matter of time.

[terrya]

9. Yes, they are.

They're telling me that I don't deserve the same rights they are. They are still telling me that, essentially, there's still something "abnormal" with gay people. They are telling me that I am a second class citizen and always will be a second class citizen.

If that isn't gay bashing, I don't know what is.

[Clovis Sangrail]

10. I guess it's interpretation

I've always understood "gay bashing" as a hate crime.
Where I grew up this was the term used to describe drunk rednecks beating the crap out of gay men... just because they were gay.

[terrya]

11. Gay bashing can be other than physical violence, imo

It can be emotional or verbal.

And that, to me, is gay bashing.

[William769]

15. Glad to see we are of the same mind set.

Seems like here lately I have been a black sheep in the GLBT forum. But my response is fuck them if they don't like what I have to say.

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. Not gay bashing, but definitely homophobia

Gay bashing is an act of violence. But unless that straight person can come up with a compelling reason why my right to equal marriage should be opposed -- ie, unless they can explain how their opposition is not the result of unreasoning bigotry -- I will have no compunction in calling them homophobic.

And anyway, anyone who calls marriage a religious institution, not a civil one, is either ignorant or lying their ass off. In the United States, marriage is and always has been a civil matter, thanks to the First Amendment. Hundreds of thousands of legal marriages are entered into in this country every year without "benefit" of clergy; I have had the priviledge of officiated at more than 20 such marriages. Any wedding that is conducted without filing the appropriate papers with civil authorities does not exist under the law. And divorces are entirely civil matters; if marriage was strictly a religious institution, shouldn't churches be required to sanction a divorce under law?

[BR_Parkway]

13. I don't think anyone should get "married" unless it's a religious

service.

I think Civil Unions should be the gov't issued standard package of priveldges and responsibilities for all who wish to join together - man/man, man/woman, woman/woman

Who cares what it's called - the government needs to get out of the religous end of this

[TechBear_Seattle]

18. Why should more than 200 years of American law be changed?

"I don't think anyone should get married unless it's a religious service."

On what grounds? Marriage in the United States is and always has been a civil institution No couple that has a religious wedding, but who does not file the civil paperwork, is legally married. Every couple that has a non-religious wedding and does file the civil paperwork is legally married. So why should the First Amendment be tossed aside, civil marriages be declared invalid and all future marriages require the "benefit" of clergy?

[BR_Parkway]

20. I was saying to leave the phrase "married" to the religious ceremony

The legal rights and responsibilites conferred by the government could be call civil unions, partnerships, spousal agreements or whatever.

We keep making the arguement that it's not a religious thing, that we only want to be treated the same way regardless of the sex of who we choose to be our partner in life. The religious right keeps using the word "marraige" as some sort of holy icon - fine, lets quit calling it marriage for everyone. YOu get joined civilly by government employee, if you want to get married, you go to your preacher after the gov't has already done their bit - like they do in Europe

[TechBear_Seattle]

21. Except the legal rights and responsibilities are conferred by marriage

Why should religion be given sole access to a word that has always been a part of civil law and has always represented a civil institution in this country? Again, why should more than 200 years of American law be changed to accomodate narrow minds unable to understand American law?

That the religious right use the word "marriage" as some sort of holy icon merely provides an example of the wishful, ignorant lack-of-thought of the religious right. Their arguments are marriage is exclusively religious are out-right lies. Why should we change more than 200 years of American law to accomodate those lies?

If the religious bigots want to somehow distinguish religious marriage from civil marriage, let them be the ones to create a new word. And let them be the ones to deal with the fact that this new word is not covered by centuries of statutes and common law. After all, they are the ones who are bitching and moaning about the matter.

[BR_Parkway]

22. For one, I like the idea of a new word, it signifys our inclusion

but if you want to fight for what you believe, I'm not going to stop you - but personally, I think that's going to make the battle harder.

The legal rights and responsibilities are conferred by the law (and whatever word the law uses) not the word itself.

Look at the disparity between the # of people who support gay couples having equal rights vs the # supporting gays being able to get "married". Personally, I want the legal stuff, and don't care what it's called for everyone. I want the gov't out of the religious stuff - and would very willing let the religious folks take that word to signify their church's blessing on their union (and will laugh my ass off when the pro-gay churches use the same word to signify their blessings too).

[closeupready]

16. Not VIOLENT gay-bashing; guilty more of homophobia.

And JUST BECAUSE YOUR CHURCH (CATHOLIC, BAPTIST, WHOEVER) SAYS HOMOPHOBIA IS OKAY DOES NOT MAKE IT OKAY ANYMORE THAN IF THEY SAID RACISM IS OKAY, THEN RACISM IS OKAY. (Sorry, but I get sick of "Christians" rationalizing their hatred using the excuse "oh, I have no choice in the matter since my Church says I have to hate gays.")

So I think yes, that would make them guilty of promoting hatred.

[Brian_Expat]

17. I have family who do this

I usually just drop my politeness visor when I don't comment on stupid things they do in their own relationships. When they ask me why I'm so judgmental, I say "well, if I cannot handle marriage because I'm gay and cannot live up to religious expectations of what it is, you're gonna make darn sure I uphold YOU to those standards." :D