My brother is married and in the closet...

[CoffeeCat]

...what can I do to support him while he's living as someone
that he is not?

[Lerkfish]

1. support him to come clean with his wife.

its ok to be gay, its not ok to treat your spouse with contempt.
The wife has a right to know, if for no other reason than that she deserves to be treated like a human being

But, that should come from HIM, not anyone else. Twere it me, I'd be hounding him to do that.

IMHO.

[CoffeeCat]

4. I think my brother is in denial...

...about who he is.

Therefore, I don't think he's yet gotten to the part where he's deceiving his wife. He's still deceiving himself.

I'm pretty sure that she suspects that he's gay.

He's just not dealing with it.

[Lerkfish]

19. well, I'm speaking as a relative of someone whose husband

came out of the closet after 15 years of marriage, and having a young son.
Its the lying (or denial) that's the problem, not who you are. But when you're married, you have a responsibility to be up front with your partner, no matter what, because it directly affects them.
I hope he finds a point of truth in the matter, both for him and his wife.

[nashville_brook]

2. it's the most uncool thing in the world to beard a girl

she's loving him and hoping for sex like everyone else has. she's going to spend decades in therapy trying to figure this out in a way that doesn't crush her. he HAS TO COME CLEAN!

[xultar]

8. DAYUM STRAIGHT.

[sui generis]

28. "in the closet" ???

maybe he's bi; anyway you can be gay and "have sex" with a woman. Sex is the least of it.

It's not all polar - just one thing or the other. The worst element is the dishonesty, not the sexual side of it.

If he's truly "gay" and not just bi-curious he needs to end that relationship; he's wasting two lives with dishonesty and those are years that neither he nor the person he says he loves can get back.

[dsc]

3. He needs to come clean and let her go

He will be sorry, she will be sorry, and any children of that union will be sorry if he doesn't. They all deserve better.

[CoffeeCat]

5. They have three young children...

He's an amazing father. She's a great mother.

I just wish that there was a way to demonstrate to my brother--that life can be wonderful and BETTER once you are honest.

I strongly sense that he feels that his life will crumble if he admits---even to himself--that he is gay.

We grew up with a right-wing nutjob homophobe for a father. We're talking uber extreme.

I believe that's what drives my brother's denial about himself.

[Deja Q]

7. Sensing isn't knowing. I'd confront him, directly, in private.

And in a non-aggresive tone.

But given they've got children, it's got be one hell of a hurt. He's already made a choice...

Indeed, my ex has 3 children...

[CoffeeCat]

9. Yes, I read your other post...

Thanks for the insight.

I know that he does love his wife. He may not have all of the fulfillment
that a relationship with a man would give him.

However, he and his wife are great companions. They are so much alike.

They are both committed to raising their children and being excellent parents.

Maybe that is enough. I'm not sure.

I think I'm leaning toward keeping out of it. My brother knows that I'm there
for him and that I'm someone to whom he could come out. I'm always talking about
my gay friends. He knows I would be there for him.

I think he's ashamed and afraid to come out. I guess I just don't want him
to feel like he has to live with so much emotional baggage.

[1monster]

12. Leave him alone. If he and his wife have three children and they

are great parents and good friends and great companions, then they have more together than most people, married or not, gay or straight.

If he hasn't told you that he is gay, and you believe that he is "in denial" about his orientation, how could you possibly KNOW that he is gay? It's possible that he isn't or that he has a tendency toward being bi but has chosen to ignore it in favor of his family.

Just let him know that you love him and support him tbrough thick and thin. If he is gay, eventually he will admit it to himself and perhaps you. Until then, all you have is speculation that could ruin his sense of self and his family life.

[CoffeeCat]

13. I agree...

...thanks for helping me think this through...

:)

[dsc]

10. I don't know what to say now

Those children have an interest in that marriage. They deserve to have both parents together if that is possible. I hope some reasonable way can be found for him to be honest and for the marriage to survive.

[CoffeeCat]

11. I think you're right...

...the more I post about this, the more I learn. I'm realizing through these posts--that maybe the issue is my brother's self loathing.

I think he needs to hear that who he is---is ok and wonderful.

He's spent years burying who he is. He wasn't allowed to be who he was in our childhood home.

Maybe--the issue isn't that he needs to be "out." Maybe I just need to work on letting him know that whatever he is---it's ok. And that I'm here.

[MuseRider]

15. That self loathing thing is brutal.

My brother was that way, he did not take care of himself because he was afraid and because he was brought up to be ashamed. He died of AIDS. Now I am not trying to scare you but do keep close and supportive so that he knows he has a good system in place when and if he comes out. Maybe along the way he will learn to love himself for who he is. Society makes that very hard you can help.

A new friend of mine was a married rancher had a daughter and a son. When his son turned 18 he divorced and is ranching now in my state and transitioning from male to female. He told me the very worst of it was living the lie and the depression that came along with it.

Just keep close and keep letting him know you love him and he will be able to make the best decision.

[pnwmom]

25. Do you know whether he's had outside activities? Or is he just thinking?

Because if he's not being faithful, it's really not fair for him to hide this from his wife.

[Deja Q]

6. As someone who dated a guy in the same situation...

Do not interfere.

He has to live on his own terms and if he wants to cheat, he needs to think very damn carefully - particularly if he has children from his wife.

I wish that particular ex stayed in his own private idaho; there's more to life than the sensual (I'm allowed neither so I can say that with credibility, nice try though). Every choice has pros and cons. One cannot have it both ways.

He had a wife, a good home, three well behaved kids (if not a tad pudgy but that's how he let them eat), hating gays all over the place... he then came out; revealing he'd cheated on her (quite a bit, actually).

He still loves her dearly, I saw that through and through. Same for his children.

But we were... incompatible, never mind his coming out issues to boot.

But I digress. It's up to my ex what he does in his life, and the consequences of his actions. I saw how the kids reacted after the divorce, it was not pretty.

They should have stayed together until the kids grew up.

Back to your friend, he's made a choice. If he has any sense at all, he's better think of what's right for his wife and especially if they have children together. Either stick it out (the only option if they have children) or break up now and spare the trouble.

Not an easy choice.

I'd constrain my homo-emotional desires for a loving woman who could tolerate my quirks. Love is about pleasing the other person, not pleasing yourself using the other person as a medium. It can be done; indeed when you're not "pick of the litter" material, sometimes the choice is not your own.

[pnwmom]

26. As a child of a gay father myself, I disagree that sticking it out is the

only option if you have children.

If his self-loathing affects his relationship with his wife and/or his children -- and it often does -- then sticking it out may be the worst thing he could do.

If he's going to come out of the closet, then I think everybody involved should have some serious counseling. It will be a major event in the kid's lives.

If he's able to be a good father despite his personal conflict, and wants to stay married, then more power to him. But I think it will be a challenge, and perhaps more and more as time goes on.

[mpiamerica]

33. sticking it out is sticking up for yourself

I agree with the post that sticking it out for the children is hogwash. What you teach your children about the realities of life is one of the most important things you do. Teach them who you are and they are ready to be who they are.

[mntleo2]

14. Perhaps Also Support His Wife?

She must know on some level something is not working for him. Perhaps by supporting her in her process of realizing the truth, you could be a friend to her. I am not suggesting you tell her, but at least recognize her pain as well. Unless she knew from the get go that your brother was gay, (and even if she did) she has a whole lot of painful work to go through, herself. It would seem to me that she might need extended family and friends to be there when the light dawns ~ and it will dawn.

Do they also have children together? These kids may also need support, badly. There is nothing more dangerous to them than to have a family "secret" and not be able to talk about it to anyone. Worse, because of the "kid culture" this is a secret they may not be able to even talk to their friends about. Knowledge of who their dad is can cause confusion, anger, and acting out, especially when they are older children. they need someone trustworthy with whom to share their feelings.

I am not saying to ignore your brother's pain, but look as much as you can at the whole picture and help him to make his way through it by knowing and loving everyone in the immediate family. By being available and interested in the other parts of their lives not having anything to do with what your brother, can mean that perhaps when they have to face the truth, they can talk to you. Surely they will need to talk to someone and while therapists help, nothing is like talking to someone who knows everyone well, has the best intentions for them, and cares about them. You also have your limits and what you can do may not be everything either! For instance, I personally could not handle the anger but I try to reassure everyone that I understood they had it for a very good reason, I am just not good with anger, lol. It is important to be aware of your limits so you can be up front with them about what you can and cannot handle as well. But they may need to turn to someone whom they trust where they can be vulnerable, sad, even angry, without being afraid.

There is the possiblity, especially with his wife, that your knowing and her not, could make her feel a sense of betrayal. But I would simply explain that I would *never* betray her secrets to anyone either because I love and respect everyone.

IMO by supporting everyone, you are supporting your brother because he has a heavy burden to carry, especially if he cannot even turn to his wife (who is probably also be his friend) and talk to her about his truth.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle <---been there in my family (my uncle and my cousins) and feel that loving is never a mistake and it wasn't!

[shireen]

16. he needs to start thinking about how he's affecting his wife & family ...

Two dear friends, married to each other, separated precisely because of this. They have teenage kids. He had an affair with another man, and then broke up. The other man went over to my friends' house and told his wife the whole thing. She was utterly devastated because she never suspected anything. A lot of people got deeply hurt because he had been in denial about his true sexual orientation. He's still not admitted that he's gay, and I cannot imagine the deep pain and conflict he must be feeling inside (he's Catholic!).

Another close friend got married even tho' he felt something was "wrong" -- deep deep denial. There was a bitter split-up a few years later. But he had the courage to face the truth about himself, accept it, and is now in a happy long-term relationship with a really wonderful guy, and has supportive parents and "in-laws".


Your brother needs to be true to himself. It's the only way for him to move on and find true happiness. Life is too short, and too precious to waste by living a lie.

[crikkett]

17. how about: love him for who he is

and respect his decisions? It's not like he's on heroin or meth.

PS he's an adult, too.

[TechBear_Seattle]

23. The problem is...

Almost always, closeted married men are not playing with their wives' permission. Almost always, their partners are anonymous pick-ups from bars, bathhouses or sex clubs rather than one or a small group of regular partners. Almost always, these men do not engage in safer sex practices, making the chance of bringing home a sexually transmitted disease such as syphilis or HIV very real. Almost always, these men use alcohol and other drugs to help cope with guilt, fear and stress which greatly increases the chance of unsafe sex, unwise choices about unsafe sex, and the likelihood of spreading disease to his wife and other sexual partners.

If he were doing this to his wife with other women, would you be so sanguine?

[pnwmom]

27. good post, TechBear

Your description fit my father, alas, while he was married. But afterward he lived with his partner for more than 20 years.

[Meldread]

18. I suppose the big question is...

...how do you know? You said he is still in denial, that he hasn't told you anything, so how do you know for certain that he is gay? Is it possible that he is simply bi-sexual?

If he is truly 100% gay, then I really don't have any good advise to give. If that is who he is, he has to accept it for himself before he can communicate it to others. However, if he is undeniably gay then as soon as he can accept that he must come clean to his wife. There is no way around it, even if he WANTS to remain in the marriage, he must come clean to her: secrets and things like that tend to eat away at you. There are many issues that could eventually become involved, emotional issues on his side. He may begin manifesting anger toward her, some deep feeling of resentment at being "trapped" in the marriage as well as being depressed for having to keep his true self a secret.

There is no easy answer. If he is truly gay, then unless he is willing to live a life in which he feels unfulfilled then his marriage is more or less doomed. Even if he wishes to be in a marriage that he feels isn't fulfilling there are so many factors that could cause things to go terribly wrong... things that will be painful for the wife and the children. (Oh, and by the way by unfulfilled I don't mean sexually, being gay is so much more than just sex.)

There are no good outcomes or good solutions. No matter what happens, if he is truly gay things will be bad and messy, but it is better to get it on the table and out there sooner rather than later.

[progmom]

20. I came out in the fall after 9 years of marriage and a kid.

The difference in my case, I guess, was that I didn't consciously realize/accept I was gay until this fall. Progdad and I were the best of friends and a great parenting team. But we almost never had sex, and our relationship was becoming more and more strained.
To my great surprise, I met someone in the fall who I fell immediately in love with, and it was like a veil had been lifted. I understood suddenly why I had been so unhappy and unfulfilled in my marriage. As soon as I was sure, I let Progdad know what was going on. It took a few weeks for him to work through his anger/frustration/feelings of betrayal, but ultimately he understood that this was the best path for all of us.
I moved in with my partner by late winter, and now Progspawn splits his time between us. Progdad has been seeing a counselor, which has helped him talk through a lot of the feelings this brought up. We're still good friends. And Progspawn, who is 4, has weathered the transition better than I had ever hoped. He's even telling kids on the playground now that he has two mommies. :D

If you decide to talk to your brother about this, make sure to let him know that at least for me, being honest with myself and the people I love has made me so much happier.

[BR_Parkway]

21. See, it's cause those activist judges in MA let homos get married - soon

everyone will be doing the same thing :sarcasm:

Sorry progmom, couldn't resist. I have 3 ex wives - I was absolutely determined that once I met the "right" woman, it would cure what was ailing me. My kids were mid teens before I finally came to grips with everything and decided it was time to live my life, not the one everyone else seemed to think I should be living.

Glad that your little one is handling things well, and that you're remaining friends with your ex.

[Misunderestimator]

29. The sweetest moment of my life was when ...

progspawn introduced me as his other mommy, when we had never done that ourselves. And progdad is a wonderful human being and father. We couldn't have wished for a more perfect circumstance. Not to mention that your entire family is supportive and loving and have accepted me in their lives entirely. All the negativity and gossip in the world cannot change the fact that we found love and happiness together.
:loveya:

[Uncle Roy]

22. Are you sure he IS gay?

If he's still denying to himself who he really is, then what makes you think that you know who he really is? A few people have asked this question now. It's an important point, don't you think?

Is he "stereotypically gay" in some way? Is he a big sissy? We liberals tend to be a little uncomfortable with stereotypes, especially in cases where they seem to apply. Is that what's going on here?

It's true that not all gay men are sissies, though many of us are. It's equally true that not all sissies are gay men, though again, many of us are. But maybe your brother is a straight sissy? Such creatures exist...

Ira Glass did a wonderful show on "Sissies" for "This American Life" several years ago. I think they have it archived on their site somewhere. He considers himself a straight sissy.

Roy

On edit - here's the link to TAL/Sissies: http://207.70.82.73/pages/descriptions/96/46.html

[Ayesha]

24. Very possible

I call one of my best friends the gayest straight man I ever met. He hates sports, is very emotional and cries easily, and has many gay male friends. He tried hooking up with one once just to see, and realized he's not wired that way. He adores women, has had many girlfriends and is married. So yeah, it is possible that your brother is straight or bi but prefers women.

[GymGeekAus]

30. We are all underqualified to answer your question.

Certainly there are things about your relationship with your brother that you didn't share with us. Undoubtably there is a lot going on in your brother's head that he isn't sharing. Clearly there is also a wife and some children to consider. Individual circumstances don't necessarily have general solutions. Human experience, as widespread as parts can be, is not truely universal. None of us are in your brother's shoes, even if we did have similar experiences. None of us are pursuing the exact path your brother is walking. I wouldn't put too much faith in any response you got on this board. In fact, some might say one reason one might respond to your post is to pursue our individual self-interest. Our motivations are suspect, too. I wouldn't listen to us that closely.

Closets can be horrible things. Of course, each and every individual encounters and deals with their own trials and tribulations in an individual way--nobody's life is perfect. Closets can be casual arrangements that have very little impact upon a person's life or they can be an ongoing exercise in sexual frustration or even suicidal depression. Stop to contemplate the existence of the closeted asexual, for example--their reaction to that circumstance will be quite divergent from my own. Concealing your inner voice in a closet is a choice, and it is a choice that individuals must be free to make. Who is the most qualified to decide the direction of your life? You are, right?

I personally do not support the idea of closeted men and women entering into relationships based upon trust, sharing, and companionship when they are incapable of being honest with each other. I think taking those vows of marriage in that condition is spitting in the face of your relationship not only with your partner, but with God and your progeny as well. But are honesty, trust, sharing, and companionship the only virtues of marriage? Nope. People marry for a variety of reasons. Not all relationships are rooted in trust, sharing, and companionship.

I think the biggest issue here is recognizing within yourself what you meant by "supporting" your brother. Is he asking you to lie for him? Is he asking you to let him lie to you? Or are you just asking us if you should judge him so harshly? What is it that you are wrestling with here, TwoSparkles? Are you witnessing abuse, either your brother's self-abuse or his abuse of his family? There are obviously things you should support and things you, as a moral being yourself, cannot.

IMHO, the best you can do is ask him flat out if he's gay, and then trust him enough to accept his answer. But what the heck do I know?

[Uncle Roy]

31. The entire premise of the question is shaky.

Take another look at post 4. TwoSparkles says:

I think my brother is in denial...

...about who he is.

Therefore, I don't think he's yet gotten to the part where he's deceiving his wife. He's still deceiving himself.

I'm pretty sure that she suspects that he's gay.

He's just not dealing with it.

So TS thinks that her brother might be gay. And she thinks that his wife might think that he might be gay.

So what does brother have to say about all this? We don't know.

TS tells us that her brother is in denial and deceiving himself and not dealing with it. So how does she know this? We don't know.

TS tells us that her brother hasn't "gotten to the part where he's deceiving his wife. He's still deceiving himself." So, in other words, her bro hasn't been having sex with men, and doesn't even want to have sex with men. So somehow that means he's gay? and in the closet? It might also mean he's straight.

We all know people who didn't figure out they were gay until late in life. Then, in retrospect, they (and we) can talk about them having been closeted, even to themselves. But UNTIL they figure it out, I don't know how anyone else can be so sure.

[yardwork]

32. I was married with children and 45 when I realized I'm a lesbian.

I had no idea. In retrospect, looking back on my life, I see a zillion clues but I was completely in the dark. When I realized my identity the moment was like a thunderbolt. Then the wrenching sadness of what it meant I had to do about my marriage came down on me. That's what it's been - wrenching sadness and uplifting joy. I'm fortunate to have a good therapist and kind friends and most importantly a very supportive sister and mom.

When I realized the truth about myself I did tell my husband and children, and leave the marriage. The kids are doing ok - two teenage boys. They aren't exactly delighted that their parents' seemingly happy marriage broke up, and they find it odd that their mom is now queer, but they're dealing with it very well. My ex-husband is also doing pretty well. He isn't exactly delighted either, but he's been as supportive as possible. I can't even imagine pretending to be straight and staying in the marriage. When I was in the dark about myself I knew there was something vaguely wrong but couldn't figure it out. Once I knew, it was impossible to go back.

My advice is that you talk with your brother and tell him that you support him and love him. Then let him decide what is best for him. He may literally be in denial. If so, he probably needs to figure it out on on his own and in his own way. Let him know that you are there for him no matter what.

[progmom]

34. you describe it pretty much as I experienced it

And what's funny is that all my friends were like: "we were wondering when you were going to realize that!" Apparently I was the only one who didn't realize it about myself. :shrug:

[jesus_of_suburbia]

35. As long as he is faithful to his wife....

Let him be.


If you suspect he is cheating on her with guys on the side, you REALLY need to pressure him to tell her.


By the way, I'm gay. I dated girls in college (not knowing fully who I was)... but I never had sex with a girl while I was screwing a guy on the side. That's very wrong and there is NO excuse for it. If I was seeing a girl, I was not cheating on her. (By the way, I've never had sex with a girl... I'm just saying that I didn't even cheat on a girl I was dating even though we weren't having sex).

If he is true to her.. it's his business. Like you said, just let him know you love and accept him no matter what... but you can't accept him cheating on his wife. That should be true even if he were cheating with another woman!