Does homosexuality exist in the animal kingdom?

[zanne]

I don't know if this is a stupid question or not. I was having a "conversation" with a conservative neighbor whose sole reason for thinking that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice is that you don't find it in the animal kingdom. Please help.

[cboy4]

1. Yup . . .

Some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

[XemaSab]

10. Our closest relatives, the Bonobos,

are some of the randiest animals ever described... they use sex, including homosexual sex, to solve conflicts.

Google it.

[Orrex]

15. Haven't you heard?

All so-called homosexual sex between animals is pure, hierarchical dominance-enforcement. There's no way that God's innocent animals would ever choose to undertake the sin of homosexuality for any other reason.

Oh, wait a minute--I meant :sarcasm:

[XemaSab]

18. Beats the hell out of war

:shrug:

I'm familiar with HUGE numbers of species in which homosexuality is documented, including lifelong homosexual pair bonds, but if our closest animal relatives frequently engage in homosexual interactions, doesn't that say something about us?

According to Wikipedia, they use sex as a form of greeting too. Here's the juicy part of the entry:

"Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society, being used as a greeting, a means of conflict resolution and post-conflict reconciliation, and as favors traded by the females in exchange for food. Bonobos are the only non-human apes to have been observed engaging in all of the following sexual activities: face-to-face genital sex (most frequently female-female, then male-female and male-male), tongue kissing, and oral sex."

Sounds like good times. :D

[Orrex]

21. Well, by and large...

They don't believe in evolution, either. Man, by virtue of his soul, is the pinnacle of God's works, created separate and distinct from all lesser beasts. Any genetic similarity exceeding 99% is a coincidence and in any case irrelevant, since it's our souls that matter, and we all know that animals have no souls.

See? Once one swigs the kool-aid, it becomes easier and easier to rationalize one's denials.

:eyes:

[XemaSab]

23. That attitude is willful ignorance

:(

(not you, fundie freaks)

[Orrex]

25. Not just willful, but *proudly* willful!

They derive a certain visible satisfaction from their decision to substitute unquestioned dogma for rational inquiry.

How that mindset differs from full-blown dementia, I have no idea.

[XemaSab]

28. Personally, I suspect it doesn't

What's the difference between that and a suicide bomber believing he will get 42 virgins in heaven?

The difference is a matter of degree, but not delusion.

[Orrex]

30. I feel bad for that suicide bomber

The deal that I heard about was for 72 virgins. Your hapless suicider will cheat him/herself out of an extra 30.

Of course, there's some Adams-esque satisfaction in receiving just 42 virgins...

[XemaSab]

32. I knew it was one of those numbers

:P

At any rate, I feel sorry for the virgins. A lifetime of chastity only to wind up with Mohammed Atta in the afterlife? No thanks.

[JackBeck]

2. Buy your neighbor this book.

Then, after your neighbor is done reading this book, ask your neighbor what his/her opinion is now.

"Biological Exuberance"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312192398/102-8127769-1191337?v=glance&n=283155

[idgiehkt]

40. Yes! That is a great book.

That guy put alot of work into that book.

It's stunning, it goes species by species.

Best book on the subject.

[orion9941]

3. Yes it does exist.

It has been observed in the wild as well as within zoo's.

[niyad]

4. our experts will be along in a few minutes, but I know that it does, in

fact, exist in the animal kingdom. heck, even the movie "legally blonde 2" had gay dogs in it!! and I had a pair of gay parakeets many years ago. if I remember the stats correctly, it exists in almost the same percentage in the animal kingdom.
others will be able to provide links, etc. I have to run, but good luck.

[HereSince1628]

5. I've watched homosexual rape take place in seagulls.

Male and female gulls look a lot alike but the birds I watched had been sexed when they were wing-tagged as part of behavior studies. There was no doubt about their sex and no doubt that there was cloacal kissing going on.

Other than that I can only say I have read about it in primates in such books as the one by Van der Waals.

[rman]

6. Humans do lots of things that no other animal does:

religion, war, science...
Because humans are unlike any other animal.

Also the conservatives should make up their mind about their thinking homosexuality being a decease or a lifestyle choice (not that it's either, but at least they could be consistent about their opinions).

[havocmom]

17. Chimps make war

No, not THAT chimp. Jane Goodall has video of chimp warfare.

[rman]

27. I wouldn't call that warfare -

certainly not comparable to contemporary human warfare. It's more like the violent tribal clashes of old. It's face-to-face, doesn't last for years on end. Though i must admit i find it hard to put my finger on what exactly the significant differences are.

[havocmom]

31. Well thought out tactical raids, beatings with big sticks

Gang war at the very least, but warfare none the less. If you are using scale as a criteria, well humans seem to live in more concentrated groups than any other of the higher mammals, so that would be the difference. ;)

[Ravenseye]

7. Yes it does

Though it's more like bisexuality. I dont' know if anyone has found or seen a truly gay animal, but there are plenty that will have sex with either males or females of their species. Dogs. Apes of various stripes.

You know what though? So what if it didn't. There are plenty of things we do, that animals don't do. Plenty of things we have evolved, that other animals don't. By your neighbors logic, the fact that other animals don't talk, then it's not natural for us to talk. It's just bad logic.

[azurnoir]

8. l thjnk so

non-scientific but cats. i had 2 male house cats some years ago, who for all intents and purposes were gay.

[murray hill farm]

34. I had two male dogs once...

who had lots of sexual contact in every which way they could think of..ha! and where ever they wanted to do it..front yard, middle of the street....they didnt care..for them it felt natural, i am sure.

[rodeodance]

9. PBS had a show about this---(actually penquins was the topic)--and

yes, they did discuss this. It does exist.

[blm]

11. Yes - There is an award winning book Peacemaking Among Primates that

should be required reading in every high school, imo.

If it is a subject that interests you, then you should check it out - in some primates, mutual pleasuring is part of the making up process after a showdown.

[zanne]

13. Wow. This really helps.

Thanks to all of you for the info!

[Jamastiene]

45. That is the best kind of pleasuring...

"make-up" sex after a fight. :evilgrin:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

12. I've had bisexual parakeets and incestuous lesbian hamsters.

Perhaps it's best not to use the incestuous lesbian hamsters as an example though.

[zanne]

16. I think you're right about that!

I can just imagine my neighbor rolling her eyes at that one!

[Critters2]

49. When I lived in the country,

my neighbor, a beef farmer, used to joke about his two lesbian cows. One day I was out hiking, and one cow was mounting another. I looked carefully, and knew the one on top was not a bull. I mentioned it to my neighbor, and he said "Yep, those are the girls. If they'd go to seminary, they could be ordained in the UCC" (a reference to our mutual religious tradition, the first Christian church to ordain out clergy).

So, yes, I think it happens.

[unpossibles]

14. I no longer have the link

but a recent study found some several hundred species of animals have homosexual behavior in them. Google it and you'll find a ton of articles, many from "respected" sources such as National Geographic.

I'd say humans are the only animals who worry about labels for our sexuality, but not the only ones who do it.

And personally, I feel that it is both a choice and not a choice - on some level we are all attracted to some characteristics without a deliberate decision, be it hair color, skin color, size, personality, gender, height, etc. But I feel this is something that can change throughout our lives, and there can still be a choice to act upon or not - for instance, I may be attracted to someone who does not meet all of the characteristics that I am normally attracted to and still find them attractive and decide to date them or not.

[Captain Hilts]

19. What about those penguins at the Bronx zoo? nt

[sgxnk]

20. yes, it does exist - bonobo monkeys

a very excellent example is bonobo monkeys

[racaulk]

22. I'm an animal and I'm gay. So I would say yes! :-) eom

[zanne]

24. You're right, of course.

I should have put the question another way; "Does homosexuality exist in the animal kingdom, other than humans"?

[racaulk]

38. Ha ha!

I know, I'm just trying to be funny. :hi:

I don't think anyone has mentioned it in this thread, but there have also been documented cases of homosexual pairings in penguins. I believe that penguins are monogamous creatures that pair for life, and there have been cases where they have partnered with penguins of the same gender.

Here is a link that I found that tells some of those stories: http://www.gayheroes.com/penguins.html

You should be able to do a quick Google search to find more articles and research on this topic. Good luck!

[Orrex]

29. See? That's where your reasoning is flawed

You're not an animal--you're a human being created in His image. Therefore your analogy fails.

or...

You are an animal, and so you can't be gay, because homosexuality is unknown in the animal kingdom. Therefore your analogy fails.


Geez! If I'd known how easy it is to be a fundydrone, I wouldn't have bothered with all that Critical Thinking stuff in the first place...

[sui generis]

33. well "animals" in the wild don't dye their hair

fuck in the missionary position or use credit cards either.

We all make choices about how we conduct our private and personal lives that are not the provenance of nosy neighbors. In fact it is indeed "choice" that is at issue and not animal behaviors.

Anyway, the animal argument is absurd. Most animals don't have sex for recreation and pleasure as far as we know, and we all know that's a choice and not a biological imperative.

These people are all about animal husbandry. One man, one woman, make baby. All your gonads are belong to me!

I think I would have fired right back at the neighbor that animals don't wipe their asses either. Does he want to make that illegal?

[Orrex]

35. Clearly, you need another serving of kool-aid

You're being far too rational about all of this.

Let go of your higher brain functions, and base your arguments on fear and the teachings of pre-technological nomads.

[Jamastiene]

46. ROFLMAO

You make great points.
:rofl:

[racaulk]

36. A fundydrone! Ha ha!

You see, it's much easier to just have faith and believe what you are told than to actually have a rational mind and think for yourself!

I think you're onto something here... ;)

[fasttense]

26. Saw a show on cross-dressing bisexual snakes the other night.

It had male snakes colored and acting like female snakes. They did it to get in with the females and by pass the other males without fighting. Then once in the middle of the female pack they had sex with the the females. But along the way they had sex with the males too. Perhaps cross-dressing is also biological. This is not sarcasm.

[sinkingfeeling]

37. Absolutely. About 450 different species.

http://www.seedmagazine.com/news/2006/06/the_gay_animal_kingdom.php

Added link on edit.

[SnowGoose]

39. It's also observed in lab animals

I remember ferrets specifically, but there are others as well, and the frequencies of these behaviors can be altered by fetal exposure to some hormone-mimicking compounds.

Look at pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?DB=pubmed)

And that book that was recommended "biological exuberance" is a great resource.

[Smarmie Doofus]

41. Yes. But homophobia does *not*. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

42. I'd ask my dog Luke the Lab

But he's too busy right now getting it on with his obsessive love, Gordon the Scottie. (Couldn't care less about the two girls in the house.)

[liontamer]

43. yes,

they're lots of good links on this thread. There was also a documentary on logo about it. My favorite part was when the host discovered all the homosexual animal film footage that was already out and the bizarre rationalizations people gave for it. There was a female dolphin who buzzed another female's genitals which was explained away as "testing for sexual health" :eyes:

[Jamastiene]

44. Yes, it does exist in the animal kingdom, and not exactly rarely either.

There are numerous links online to articles about research that has been done and zoos that have had to keep their conservative donors waiting until the animals were finished with their "acts." There are gay penguins in Central Park's Zoo. There have been gay swans, chimps, and everything else under the sun.

Tell your conservative neighbor to take the blinders off and actually watch the wildlife for a change. He may learn something. Then again, if he is conservative by choice, like that, he is likely to stay ignorant by choice as well.

Here is a link to get you started:
http://www.borndifferent.org/

[Boomer]

47. The contortions to ignore it are almost funny

Back in my college days (some 30 years ago) I remember one of my anthropology professors discussing pair bonding between same-sex baboons in the troop he had studied. The context for the discussion was how human subjectivity was so difficult to eradicate from even the most simple "objective" study, in this case the documenting of daily baboon behavior. Each behavior action -- grooming, fighting, sleeping, eating, etc. -- was coded on a time sheet as it was observed.

At least that was the theory.

One of the behaviors to be coded was the formation of mating/bonding pairs. The behavior of the same-sex couples was exactly the same as opposite-sex couples: approaching each other, moving away from the troop and into the brush, then emerging awhile later to engage in mutual grooming. Some of these pairs would stay together for days, not just for a single dalliance.

The only difference between same-sex and opposite-sex pairs was that the RESEARCHERS would not code the behavior of the same-sex couples as pair-bonding. They simply wouldn't -- or couldn't -- recognize the concept of male/male or female/female bonding.

To my professor -- bless his heart -- the parallel was obvious, and he seemed genuinely puzzled by the inability (or unwillingness) of other observers to admit what they were seeing in the field.

[idgiehkt]

48. thank you

that is one of my very favorite topics. I heard a lecture about once by a marine biologist who said she was astounded to find all different kinds of relationships among the animals she studied when she broke with protocal and actually started looking for them. Up until that point they had only been studying male female and the affect of dominant males on the group.

Stuff like what you talked about is why we only have about 1/10th of history that is taught in school that we can trust. Because each culture that recorded observations of other cultures around them did it through a very subjective and unreliable lens. I personally think that the invention of the false virtue 'objectivity' is one of the worst things that ever happened to humanity.

[Jamastiene]

50. Your professor was a gem.

Many of my professors would see the bonding as aberrant behavior. In other words, they'd take it a step further to the conservative view of the world. Oh, they kill me.

[mitchtv]

53. Female penguins were brought to Berlin from Sweden

to "straighten" out the males at their zoo; the last I jeard it wasn't all that successful

[davidinalameda]

51. yes

[mitchtv]

52. Geese are notorious

the penguins are getting that way, too

[pagerbear]

54. Who the hell cares?

This kind of question makes me crazy! Why do we allow ourselves to get distracted by this?

Your neighbor can believe anything s/he wants to believe about the nature of homosexuality. None of it matters. The real issue is rights and fair and equal treatment under the law. If it were proven that homosexuality exists in no other species or that homosexuality were indeed a choice, would you allow your neighbor to tell you that GLBT folk were not entitled to the same rights as every other American?

[zonmoy]

55. definitely I have seen several male cats trying to mate with each other

in the humane association cages.