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"Us", "Them", and the Division of the American People

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Langley85 Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:25 PM
Original message
"Us", "Them", and the Division of the American People
There is much talk in this country lately of a “cultural war”. There is a new phrase floating around among the news channels in addition to “red state” and “blue state”: “Two Americas”, and at times it seems that this is exactly what is being formed between gay and/or pro-choice liberals and conservative Christians. This may be an oversimplification, but this country is being increasingly pervaded with an “us” and “them” attitude. Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, homosexuals and heterosexuals, Christians and non-Christians, as if one is good and the other evil, one a “true American”, and the other a traitor or somehow inferior, and never the two shall meet. In this epic struggle between “good and evil”, I cannot be a completely neutral player. I am gay (or at least bisexual), I describe myself as pro-choice, and I am a registered member of the Democratic Party. In this area when “liberal” is so often used as if it is equitable with “Communist” or “terrorist”, I am not ashamed to describe myself as a liberal Democrat. It is no secret to anyone who knows me that I am strongly against President George W. Bush and the war in Iraq. If you asked around with people I talk to or read some of what I have written, you will know I am not impartial. But in a moment of reflection, when hot emotions have died down, I ask the question, “is it necessary that we fight each other?”. At a time when we are facing dangerous and determined enemies at home and abroad, it does not strike me as a good time- insofar as there is ever is one- for Americans to be making bitter enemies out of each other. Issues of sexual orientation and religion which are meaningless differences to me are not to many others, and I am not sure if such fervently held and diametrically opposed beliefs can be surmounted. But abortion and gay marriage are not the only moral issues in America- if you consider them to be in the first place.
Homosexuality is widely considered a sin, but Jesus Christ himself said nothing about the issue at all. The only place in the Old Testament where any statement about homosexuality of any clarity can be found is in the Book of Leviticus, which proscribes the behaviors and practices to be followed by the Hebrews under the Law of Moses. Here it is said that “if a man lies with another man, they have committed an abomination. They must be put to death. Their blood will be on their own hands.” When read as is, this sounds like a clear- and very serious- condemnation of homosexuality. But is it as clear-cut and above question as many believe? I have a friend who believes firmly that everything said in the Bible is to be taken literally word for word, and that none is questionable. I also have a friend, who is also a devout Christian, who does not believe that every word of the Bible is above question, that it must be taken in context and that it is worth noting that it was written thousands of years ago. I agree with the latter, some may say conveniently, but hear me out. This passage was written after Exodus, in which Moses led the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt and received the Ten Commandments. Think of the circumstances. The Hebrews are alone, wandering, starving, not likely to survive. Moses must establish a new society out of these people. Strict rules and guidelines are often considered necessary to form such a group into a cohesive unit which will work as one to achieve survival and success. Much like the Puritans, Moses laid down very strict laws to effect the order and discipline the Hebrews would need to survive in their frightening new world. In order for the new society to survive and prosper, building families and producing children must be strongly encouraged. In such life-or-death circumstances, there would have been little room or tolerance for anything which may have interfered with that. Needless to say, the more homosexual relationships developed among the Hebrews, the fewer children would be born to form the next generation. Since, according to the Christian religion, Moses received the Ten Commandments from God himself as the laws for his people, if it was God and not only Moses who condemned homosexuality, why do none of the Commandments make the slightest mention of it? In my opinion, all of this gives plenty of room for the interpretation that it was Moses himself who condemned homosexuality and that he did so for pragmatic reasons. If this is true, and since Moses obviously did not receive any law against homosexuality from the Ten Commandments, then it would not be God condemning the practice, but a man, a human being, passing laws he deemed necessary to drive his people to keep their small race alive. The only other place in either testament of the Bible where virtually anything is said about homosexuality is in St. Paul’s Book of Romans, where Paul states in Romans 1:26 and 27:

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was met.

Again, at first glance, this sounds like a fairly clear condemnation of homosexuality, but many liberal scholars have pointed out that if we take Paul’s judgment of same-sex relationships to be set in stone, then are we to put such unquestioning faith in his other passages condoning slavery and the oppression of women? If we do not believe Paul’s words about slavery and women, then why must we trust in his statements on homosexuality? These are not simply my opinions. There are many liberal Christian scholars who devoutly believe in the Word of God but believe these passages are the words of men rather than of God, and are therefore no more valid than the words of any other human being. Moses and St. Paul, as renowned figures as they may be, were not God. If God himself strongly condemns homosexuality, then why did he make absolutely no mention of it in the Ten Commandments which he directly handed down to mankind, and why was his Son equally silent about the issue?
These are questions which I wish more people would ask themselves. Every day I hear conservatives and evangelicals condemning not only the lifestyle, but gays as people. Some time ago, I heard an evangelist preacher addressing his congregation, telling them that homosexuality is a “horrifying, degrading practice” and that the higher suicide rates among gay teens proves what a self-destructive lifestyle it is. I do not know the exact statistics, but it would not surprise me in the least if the suicide rate was higher among gay teens, although not for the reasons he attributes to it. Being told that you are a pervert, that you are an abomination, that you are incapable of love, that you are evil, and a million other even harsher things cannot be good for a teenager’s already often fragile self-esteem. I also wish these people would question their beliefs before they so harshly push them on others, because while the Bible’s statements about homosexuality are- at least in my opinion and the opinion of many others- fairly open to interpretation, it is filled with clear instructions that even if something is to be condemned, the person committing the sin is still to be loved as a fellow human being. This renders the fervent hatred constantly expressed against homosexuals by certain people and organizations, most often under the guise of religion, utterly without the slightest moral justification. Being a teenager in and of itself is difficult enough, let alone being a teenager with such an important personal matter to sort out for themselves and with little positive encouragement from society at large. No one should have to see websites titled “GOD HATES FAGS” or hear the words of Pat Buchanan or Jerry Falwell comparing homosexuality to pedophilia and drug use or suggesting that homosexuals are deserving of the horrendous- and by no means exclusively gay- AIDS virus. The Bible itself which these individuals profess to base so much of their very existences upon provides no justification for this hate-mongering. I have written all of this, as a homosexual, with as much self-restraint and objectivity as possible. As someone who is sometimes said by others to be vague or uncertain about his own religious beliefs or lack thereof, I will say this. I wholly believe in “love your fellow man”. I do not believe in exceptions. I hope that is clear enough.
It is unrealistic to expect politicians to separate their personal values completely from their public service; it is part of who you are and cannot be switched off and on. However, I would hope that values would not be so narrowly defined, nor so dogmatically. Abortion and gay rights should not be ignored, but they should not take precedent over the multitude of other pressing issues facing our country. We must focus not only on the issues which divide us, but also on the issues which unite us. We need to speak up in the name of the country instead of party allegiance.
On a subject such as gay marriage, where emotions run high and battle lines have been drawn, the only feasible conclusion that I can see is that we are going to have to come to a compromise. At the present time, civil unions are the most mutually acceptable option, granting people legal protection under the law to make decisions on their partner’s behalf in the event of a medical crisis, as well as innumerable other benefits which make life substantially easier for them without rewriting the definition of marriage, thus sparing both groups from their worst fears. As I type this, in many states, if one member of a gay couple had some sort of health emergency, their partner would have a difficult time even being allowed to visit them in the hospital. In my opinion, denying American citizens such basic rights is simply not right, and I do not believe that civil unions should be left in the hands of state governments. I advocate the full federal recognition of civil unions to protect the rights of gay couples across the entire nation. States should not have the right to turn law-abiding Americans into second-class citizens. We often hear of moral values. Well, in my opinion this is a moral value. This kind of blatant, immoral, and un-American legal discrimination should be something which we simply do not do in a country which refers to itself as the land of the free, and certain people and organizations should not be attempting to pit straight Americans against gay Americans, we are all Americans and that should be what matters.
Earlier I referred to myself as pro-choice, which I usually describe myself as simply because there isn’t really another term, but now I will clarify my exact thoughts on that. I do not advocate abortion simply as a standard form of birth control, but nor do I believe it is either wise or practical to make it completely illegal. If abortion became outlawed across the entire United States, wealthy women would go get them in Canada, and poor women would go to quack doctors or try to do it themselves, with the kinds of gruesome results we had before it was legalized in the first place, which I certainly do not see as a positive thing to go back to, which puts me in two minds about abortions. With so many couples across the United States eager to adopt a child, people should at least be strongly encouraged to put their babies up for adoption if they do not want them for themselves. A mutually acceptable compromise about abortion is not as easy as gay marriage, and I am not sure if one exists, but we should be striving to find one, instead of wasting our energies in loud attacks on the other side’s lack of morality. When people hold their beliefs so strongly, it may not be possible to surmount such severe differences, but it is necessary to at least try. Simply bashing each other relentlessly changes no one’s opinion and accomplishes nothing, and is akin to beating your head against a brick wall.
Since so many of these current controversies hinge on religious beliefs, I think it is worth noting that one of the basic tenets upon which this country was founded was separation of church and state. This country is not made up entirely of Christians. They have every right to have their faith respected, but so do the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and non-religious citizens of this country. I have heard far too many people speak as if this is not the case. Using a religion which generally promotes tolerance, love, and respect for all mankind to promote discrimination, arrogance, and a superior attitude towards those whom are different from yourself is in fact a misuse of that religion.
As for Iraq, whatever the rights or wrongs of the invasion, the troops who are fighting and dying are doing so for their country, not as Republicans or Democrats, liberals or conservatives, but as Americans, and as such deserve the utmost respect on both sides of the aisle. At the same time, support for the troops or lack therefore should not be automatically equated with a support or a lack of support for the current Administration. It is entirely possible to not approve of the President and his policies but to respect the troops as much as anyone else, and our soldiers deserve better than to be used as political footballs. Just as I do not believe that being a Christian necessitates an unquestioning adherence to every stated rule, nor do I believe that being a patriot necessitates or even permits a blind adherence to the party line.
Of course, all of this is only my opinion. No one else has to agree with me, but I hope you did not stop within the first paragraph when I mentioned that I was gay, liberal, or a Democrat. I did not write this as any of those, because none of those is the whole of my person. We are greater than the sum of our parts. I’m Jes. I wrote this as Jes.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's called a wedge-issue
Republicans live and die by them.

Welcome to DU! :toast:
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Welcome to DU!
Glad you're one of 'us' and not 'them'.

From a straight liberal christian.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hi Langley
Welcome to DU! I don't know about anyone else, but I fear Evangalist Christians today more than I fear anything else. Obviously you've done your homework in regards to what the bible says, maybe because you felt you had to defend yourself, or maybe to reassure yourself that you're ok. I never studied the bible for that - MY God says that we shouldn't judge other people, and that we should love our brother as ourselves. I have never seen a more hate filled agenda than the one these supposed "compassionate Christians" have.

I believe in God, which I think makes me a Christian, but I don't believe in their God, that's for sure. How they can live with that hate, I'll never know.

I have a brother who's gay, friends who are gay, a niece who is gay. To me, it's really a non-issue (although I admit it was a little tough to get used to when my brother first "came out"). I love him dearly, he's one of my best friends, and these people don't even know him, but they hate him. That's not very Christian in my book. Then again, nothing this administration does seems very Christian to me.

I think we have far more important things to worry about than a person's sexual orientation, and I'm not exactly sure how it became an issue, but to me it only shows more evil being done in the name of God. Whatever God it is GWshrub talks to is NOT my God. Then again, he is not MY president, either. Those touching pictures of the administration praying together make me sick. They are EVIL.

Anyway, I don't think blind adherence to ANYTHING is a good idea. I've never been capable of doing that. I think I'm a patriot - as a matter of fact, I think I'm more of a patriot now than I've ever been in my life, because I feel a need to fight against the evil of the present administration. Blind adherence to an evil administration is not patriotic, no matter how many times they say it is, and you are not a bad person, no matter how many times they tell you you are.
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Langley85 Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Outstanding
Excellent! I agree with you 100%. Wooo, this is my kind of crowd, lol. People who call themselves Christians while never acting like it a day of their lives make me sick.
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Wisc Badger Donating Member (317 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oustanding Post - Well Writen and Reasoned.
Author, Author, Author!

Count me with you!
:yourock:
:headbang:
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Langley85 Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Thanks!
Thanks everyone for the welcome and the compliments, sometimes I feel all alone in this country, and I'm glad to see that's not the case.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You're far from alone
but there are so many threads on here, that it's easy for them to get lost. I think I'm going to kick this one so more people can find it!

:kick:
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. There is a great divide in this country....
It is unfortunate, for sure. I'd love nothing more than to see this divide closed and a true UNITED States of America come forth. However, I am not so naive to believe that such a thing will take place at this point in time. There is a "culture war" going on in America, and the casualties are young homosexual teenagers who, when told they are filthy disgusting perverts not worthy of respect or human decency, take their own lives to escape what they feel is an overwhelming presence of hatred. The victims are committed homosexual couples who have lived together twice as long than most heterosexual marriages last, and when a partner dies the family of the deceased partner seize all of the assets leaving the living partner with nothing. The victims are those who are fired from their employment because of their sexual orientation. The victims are those who have their families turn their backs on them and face constant harassment in public.

We are in a war and our enemy will not be satisfied until we are completely silenced either by shoving us back into the closet (something some would argue would be worse than death) or seeking us out and ending our lives. Either way we are forced into a war that we'd rather not be in, but we have little choice: it's about survival.

I consider myself a Christian, and it took me a long time to once again embrace that title after suffering through what seems like an endless amount of bigotry and hate. I do not consider the enemy Christians, because you cannot be a Christian while preaching the infinite love of Christ one moment and the next preaching intolerance, bigotry and hate.

Welcome to DU Jes. :)
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Langley85 Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Totally Agree
I completely agree, and you made a great post in yourself. It's hard enough being a teenager, let alone a gay teenager, without having people bashing you every day. As far as I'm concerned these people all contribute the their deaths, and they think they are Christians.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. If they are not living Kosher, I am uninterested
in the opinion of old testament Xians. the new testament supercedes ihe OT, and Paul's epistles are not gospel, and are arguable by scholars I don't know enough. I had 12 yrs of RC education but most was the 4 gospels.
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croat Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. Christians
Calling oneself "Christian" is not what makes one a Christian...the only perverts are those who can take the Bible, a book whose message is love and understanding, and turn it into a tool of hate and discrimination.
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Langley85 Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. my thoughts exactly
n/m
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Stepup2 Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. Excellent post

I was FURIOUS when the marriage issue was raised to the fore, rather than civil unions of some sort. I knew the backlash would be meted out with a fury.

As a person who has negotiated the medical system recently (cancer) in a conservative community, I can tell you it is a nightmare to be treated as a whole person; more difficult still to patch together some sort of legal protection necessary in dealing with a life threating illness. My partner of 17 years was invisible many times, and had to push and threaten legal action to be given access to medical information that she had power of attny over.


I won't regress into the litany of slights I endured; it is a waste of energy, but I will say I find it truly sicking that my tax dollars helping contribute to my own discrimination.

I understand how many want to push for the wording as well as the legal protections. Some of us have fewer years remaining to wait for protection under the law.



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