My 8th grade son and his friends use this term "that's so gay." At first I was a little shocked at

[DuaneBidoux]

this new development. I listened a lot to how they used it. While it is definitely not attributing a positive characteristic to the receiver of the comment it doesn't seem to be filled with hate and rancor the way some other words are.

I hesitate to try and stop my son from using it. I have told him that all people deserve to be treated with equality, dignity and respect. I know that for many kids the harder you try to prevent them from doing something (my son is 13 years old) the harder they try and do it.

Anyone else familiar with kids using this expression? Thoughts?

[NMDemDist2]

1. i'm gonna kick these as I would like to see the responses

but I fear it's not a phrase of praise :cry:

[thatsrightimirish]

2. people said it a lot when i was in the 8th grade

Which was only three years ago. And I live in a certain large city on the west coast. It's gone away a little since then though

[EFerrari]

3. That's funny because my San Francisco cousins used that term

in the 70s and it was definitely something they picked up at school. I had no idea what they were talking about, burbette that I was.

On the other hand, they had no idea what they were referring to, either. They were the same age as your son.

Come to think of it, I have friends who say that only it's with affection. Hmmm. How confusing.

[tridim]

4. It was used when I was in school in the 70's and 80's

Very common, and IMO has nothing to do with homosexuality. It was just something kids said because everyone else did.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

5. Explain to him exactly why it's wrong. DO NOT hesitate.

My younger sisters (18, 19 and 22) all used to say it. They were not homophobes, but they didn't understand why it's offensive. They won't say it around me anymore. It's fucking offensive and your son should learn why.

[skipos]

14. I agree.

Would anyone want their kids saying things like that in front of a gay guest?

[bliss_eternal]

62. Great point, haruka...!

I grew up during the time that it was said frequently by kids. I know some that grew up during that time and continued to say it as adults, in the same context.

I pointed out to them the few I knew well enough to (and cared enough about to do so), that it's inappropriate and why. None say it anymore--realizing how offensive and disrespectful it is.

[TheDebbieDee]

6. My kids started using that term about 4 or 5 years ago.........

I didn't stop them from using it cause it didn't sound negative or slurrish. I just figured it was something they heard on MTV or something and was equivalent to the term "lame".

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

26. It is negative and slurrish.

Stop them.

Would you stop them if they were saying, "that's so nigger?"

[gator_in_Ontario]

124. I used that same argument

with a very close friend who told me about her neice using it. Her niece had said "That's so gay" referring to a church outing, and my friend said to me..."oh...is that offensive?" I said, "Not as long as "that's so nigger" or "that's so spic" isn't offensive. She got it. Hope she passes that along to her neice.

[GOPNotForMe]

85. So the logic is that "gay" = "lame", and you see no problem with that?

You have got to be kidding me. Some people...

[Jamastiene]

90. So "lame" is a positive thing to you? n/t

[xchrom]

7. i hate it.

would it be ok if your son -- with all of his good intentions said -- ''that's so nigger.''?

this is simply the majority doing what minorities often do -- claiming and reclaiming a word -- in this case returning it to a negative -- and if you've heard some kids use it -- even pejorative status.

[LostinVA]

11. Thank you, xchrom -- I was just going to write the same exact thing

Posters on this thread saying it's without rancor or just means "lame" are obviously people who don't have to be worried about homophobia affecting them.

[Igel]

34. "Lame" is no worse if you're disabled.

Actually, it's probably a bit worse: even applied to the disabled it's a borderline term of abuse these days.

[EFerrari]

36. For clarity, I didn't say that. I said my young cousins used it

when they probably didn't know what it meant, and also that some of my friends now also say it (ironically). Two different contexts.

[DuaneBidoux]

44. No it would not be okay, but that is not exactly my concern.

Anyway I don't think it is the equivalent of saying "that's so n****r," and that's one of my points. I've heard people say "that's so black of you," and it didn't necessarily mean black or white but instead some aspect of the African American culture that was not at all necessarily negative (I've got some positive stereotypes built up in my mind about gay people from all the gay folks who have been my friends (I'm straight)).

The other issue that I am grappling with (generally as a parent) is how to pass along my ideals to my kids. I'm not sure it's a simple matter of prohibiting the use of offensive language. My parents grew up telling me that lots of words (i.e., fuck, shit, goddamn, etc.) were wrong and now I don't think anything about it no matter how many times they told me. On the other hand they consistently used derogatory terms for minorities of all kinds and now I find that very offensive even though they didn't tell me anything like that.

How is it after all that one actually becomes liberal? I don't think it is through being told what behaviors to have. Instead I think it is through a true broadening of thought processes. It is through the development of empathy through exposure to many different kinds of people and realizing that they are all just like you and deserve the same respect that you want to have. Whereas I think conservatism is either pounded on you and accepted because you have not tried to understand more about the world I think liberalism is simply the result of a broad and deep understanding of the world. And so what is the best procedure for teaching my son the implications of his term "that's so gay?" I think it is probably to expose him to enough different kinds of people that he comes to that understanding on his own. Then, of his own accord, the language will stop.

[Puglover]

49. You really don't get it do you?

This one sentence says it all.

"Anyway I don't think it is the equivalent of saying "that's so n****r," and that's one of my points."

You asked the question and a whole lot of gay people have told you in no uncertain terms how they feel about it and you blithely discount their feelings with this sentence. Who in the fuck are you to qualify my or anyone else's feelings?

You're a bigot just like everyone else in America including me. The difference however between you and I is I work on not being one. For whatever bullshit reason you want to hold onto this crap. No one including me is asking you to walk on eggshells. Just lose using the word "gay" as a pejorative. Is that to much to ask?

[LostinVA]

50. What Puglover said

[DuaneBidoux]

53. I think it is you who does not get it.

I did not say it was inoffensive, I didn't say it was right, I didn't say it is a good thing that my son uses the term. I am questioning the method by which I can truly bring about change in my son. I'm not sure that simply informing him that it is wrong will have that effect (at least not at his age).

And how would you know whether or not I am a bigot? I have many friends of all religions, races, and sexual orientations--and while I am far from perfect most of these folks give me credit for being reasonably open minded.

I try to explore and ask questions. I try not to judge before investigating. I will take into account that many here have told me it is offensive. I must also take into account how to bring about real change in my child.

[LostinVA]

63. No, it's you that doesn't get it

And, this is the GLBT Forum, not GD.

[Puglover]

73. So then inquiring minds want to know.

Just what is your question? You asked us if we took offense. All of us (with the exception of one) told you yes and you chose to debate it and negate our feelings. So I call bullshit.

I would also suggest if you want advice on how to effect real change in your child there might be better forums than GLBT to seek advice. Not because we could not give you good advice but as in this case, the advice is not what you seem to want to hear.

Oh and don't take the bigot crack personally. I happen to believe that we are all bigots to a degree. As Jane Elliott says it is impossible to grow up in the US and not be a bigot. What matters most is to be aware of it and work on it.

[PurpleChez]

91. Agreed! The previous poster, though obviously sincere and

deeply concerned about the issue, overreacted (I believe) and made some untennable accusations. This is something I've seen in a number of DU threads related to sexuality in recent months. Some folks seem eager to condemn anyone who doesn't believe exactly and precisely as they do. I've seen posters condemn what myself (and all other responders) saw as statements of unqualified SUPPORT, simply because the support wasn't stated precisely as they wanted it.

[Puglover]

112. How nice that you think me "sincere". Now, you want to tell me exactly

what "untennable accusations" I made?

Why is it so hard for you to wrap your mind around this. "That's so gay" uses "gay" as a pejorative. It perpetuates "gay" is lame,bad,unworthy, take your pick.

I couldn't fucking care less if someone uses it around me. If that is the best word smithing they can come up with well whoopy fucking doo for them. But I'm not a 15 or 16 year old gay kid filled with shame and uncertainty. And in that reality "that's so gay" takes on a whole different meaning.

If I called you a "breeder" or used "that's so gay" around you and you asked me to knock it off I simply would. Not. A. Big. Deal.

If your idea of "support" is I'm gonna use whatever verbiage I want and to bad if it bothers you then I would sincerely suggest you shove your support.

[PurpleChez]

119. I am quite able to "wrap my mind" around that idea,

(and isn't it a tad...uh...un-democratic...to assume that someone who may not agree with you is mentally incapable?). In fact I'm in full agreement with you on the "that's so gay" issue, and most of the other points that have been made in this thread. I especially enjoyed your "if that's the best they can do..." comment, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. But I objected to the idea that someone who feels differently must be a bigot. Sorry. I just don't buy that.

BTW: I HAVE a (gay) friend who calls me a breeder. And when we were expecting our daughter he announced that he wished someone would throw HIM a shower just for having unprotected sex. What a fun guy.

Also...I do apologize if my declaration of your post as "sincere" seemed patronizing, because it wasn't meant to be. I just wanted to be clear that I agreed with MOST of what you had to say and dismissed nothing out of hand. As for "support"...I thought it was clear from my original post that that referred to discussions that had taken place in other threads. Again, I apologize if this was unclear or ambiguous. However, the point was that I have run into a large number of folks posting in GLBT threads who seemed to think that anyone who didn't agree with them -- TO THE LETTER -- was a bigot, and people who most folks would think of as SUPPORTING tolerance issues (that's where the word SUPPORT came in) were cast in the same light as Nazis and Republicans. At absolutely no time did I say "I'm gonna use whatever verbiage I want and (too) bad if it bothers you." If you want to discredit my statement, go ahead, but don't put words in my mouth. I say enough stupid shit as it is without folks making stuff up to add to it.

Long story short...I agree with most of what you've said but I stand by my statement that dude isn't a bigot for feeling otherwise.

[Puglover]

121. Oh God

You seem like a very nice guy so I'm gonna try again. Read the entire sentence in my post and the following post.

For the record I think that if you were born and raised in the US you cannot HELP but to be a bigot and that includes yours truly. I went through Jane Elliotts "Brown Eyes Blue Eyes" exercise years ago and it was life changing for me. Google it if you are curious about the story. I work on my learned bigotry every single day. I was not calling the OP a bigot rather saying we all are to one degree or another.

Now peace and thanks for your thoughtful post.

NOW I'm being sincere. :)

[PurpleChez]

122. I'd already read that quote in another post.

And, again, I agree with the basic idea being put forth. But I know, and you know, and everybody else reading this knows that "bigot" is a very loaded term, an accusation, a smear. It is hurtful to be called a bigot, regardless of whatever scholarly quote someone may link to the term. Isn't the point of this thread (one of them, at least) the idea that words have an emotional component that is sometimes much more powerful than their literal definition -- that words can be hurtful? I think it is quite disingenous to say that "that's so gay" is hurtful (even when the speaker is a kid who is simply repeating a word from school and who does not link the term with homosexuality) but to expect others to casually accept the label of "bigot" -- a term just as hurtful, and in this instance being used by adults fully aware of its implications. You can't have it both ways...unless you're a Republican.... (sorry to be flippant, but I couldn't help it.)

On edit: thanks for your endorsement of me as a nice guy. I really do try.

[Puglover]

123. Please take note that the OP

hasn't bothered to respond to my reply to him. And hasn't contributed anything to this thread in 2 days. Somehow I doubt that he is so hurt he hasnt been able to.

I think that the discussion has been great however I also think the original OP was meant to stir up shit cloaked under a "please help me" Thankfully the people that responded have made this a good discussion rather than a flame fest.

[PurpleChez]

125. Oh, yeah...it was totally ass that the OP asked for advice

and then blew it all off. I still don't get that.

[LostinVA]

51. Of course it's the same as saying, "That's so n****r

There is not one iota's difference. It's disingenuous at best to act like it's different.

You come into the GLBT Forum and ask this question, and many GLBT posters tell you it is offensive to us, and yet you wave away these concerns by spinning.

Using this phrase is bigoted and homophobic. Dismissing the concerns of the gay community is worse than that.

YOU do NOT get to decide what is or is not offensive and bigoted to me.

[DuaneBidoux]

54. I am not dismissing it in any way.

I am trying to understand best how to bring about real change in my son--and unless you have a lot of experience with child-rearing you may not understand that this is not an easy task.

[xchrom]

52. you didn't really want our opinions -- this was about some exercise

for yourself -- not at all about what's going on in your life.

[Sapphocrat]

61. Here's a suggestion.

You say: "I've heard people say 'that's so black of you,' and it didn't necessarily mean black or white but instead some aspect of the African American culture that was not at all necessarily negative..."

I suggest you pop into the African-American forum and ask if anyone thinks a white person saying "that's so black of you" is OK.

[MrSlayer]

8. It's been in use for quite some time.

It's the equivalent of saying something sucks.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

12. Yeah, except it also bashes a group of people. nt

[Creideiki]

38. It used to be okay to use other terms that were derogatory, too

But it isn't any more. Why should this be acceptable?

[MrSlayer]

39. I didn't say it was or should be.

It just is what it is. I think there is a complete disconnection between the word as it's used in this context and the gay community. It's evolved from meaning happy to meaning homosexual to meaning sucks. A lot of kids don't even know what gay is and they use the term without any malice at all toward homosexuals.

[Sapphocrat]

40. OK, but...

...you're not excusing this transformation, right? You understand that just because it's DE-volved, current usage doesn't make it any less hurtful... right?

And, I hope, you agree that it is up to us -- the grown-ups -- to help children understand both the etymology of "gay," and the misguided reasoning that gay=bad is wrong... right?

And that it's not OK just because "it just is what it is"... right?

[MrSlayer]

56. Correct.

I do not allow my kids to use the term nor do I use it myself. It's not right.

[Sapphocrat]

58. Thank you, MrSlayer...

...for both preventing your own kids from using it, and for the clarification. I didn't expect you would excuse it, but I think it's often necessary to spell things out in so many words for the legions of lurkers... who can make some pretty strange assumptions.

Thanks again.

[tularetom]

9. My son (now 40) used that term back in the 70's

to describe sweaters and othere stuff sent to him for Christmas by various maiden aunts etc. Kinda like the pink bunny suit worn reluctantly by Ralphie in the Christmas Story movie.

[crim son]

10. It's a phrase they use in the middle school here.

I don't allow my children to use it. It was used when I was a kid and at that time the word was pejorative (but I never made the connection with homosexuality... I was a simple child).

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

15. I'm glad you don't let your kids use it.

Thanks.

:thumbsup:

[crim son]

22. ...

:hug: I do what little I can, lovely eyes.

[durrrty libby]

13. Kids have been using that expression for at least 30 years,

and yes it usually means that somethimg is "lame"

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

18. It doesn't matter what it "means"

It's the word that's being used to mean it. I'm sick of people just blowing this term off as meaning nothing.

[KurtNYC]

16. I'm gay and I use that phrase sometimes

Like the first time I heard this song:

I cant stand to fly
Im not that naive
Im just out to find
The better part of me

Im more than a bird...Im more than a plane
More than some pretty face beside a train
Its not easy to be me

and I thought 'man! that is SO gay'

I think if they he is not refering to a person then it has a different meaning and is not necessarily advocating oppressing gay people.

[Touchdown]

135. LOL! When I was learning bar tending, I told myself one thing

...that if anyone came in to order a vermouth cassis, I would tell them "This bar ain't THAT gay!":rofl:

[Der Blaue Engel]

17. My son said it once, and I set him straight (so to speak!)

It doesn't matter how they intend it, using "gay" to mean stupid is disparaging. You can't stop your child from saying it out of your hearing, but you can certainly explain to him how ugly and hurtful the comparison is. Supposing he has some friends who are gay but are afraid to come out because of this environment? That was one of the arguments I gave my son and it seemed to open his eyes.

If he was using "black" or "Asian" or "Jewish" as a synonym for stupid, would you think it as harmless?

[LostinVA]

20. Thank you very much

I mean that sincerely.

[DuaneBidoux]

46. I didn't say I thought it was harmless. See my other posts for my real issues about this.

[FARAFIELD]

19. Hi there

We said that when i was in 10 or 11th grade, but then again we also said "what a fag". Now it doesnt mean Gay as in a a gay person. Rather its a all encompassing statement. I use it myself and find that its a guy thing for the most part.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

21. Well, you should stop using it.

It's childish and offensive to gay people.

[Sapphocrat]

32. Well, now you know it's offensive, don't you?

Are you going to continue to use "That's so gay!" and "What a fag!" now that you know you are hurting other people?

[GOPNotForMe]

86. Then get a better vocabulary.

If the best word you can come up with when you really want to describe something stupid or lame is "gay" then maybe you should just abandon English all together. I don't know what else to say to get the point across. You are willfully saying something that you know (and you KNOW) is going to come across, at best, as hurtful to someone and at worst as a signal that you are a bigoted to some degree against gay people. If that's not enough for you to find a way to rearrange your life so that you don't say that, then you probably are hopeless.

[Sapphocrat]

23. Yeah, lots of thoughts.

Would everybody be OK with:

"That's so n-----."

"That's so Jap."

"That's so Spic."

"That's so Hebe."

And how would everyone feel if "That's real white of you" came back into common usage as a compliment? (As opposed to -- you got it -- "That's so black.")

If none of the above seems offensive to anyone, then I suppose everybody's just fine with "retard," "girly man," and "c----."

I HATE IT that hardly anyone understands why "That's so gay" as a synonymous phrase for "That sucks" is so offensive. I HATE IT that this needs to be explained all the time. I HATE knowing that there are thousands of people who, upon reading what I just wrote, are going to shake their heads, cluck their tongues, and mutter words like "hypersensitive" and "militant" -- and that a few may have the gall to publicly dismiss our very real hurt over this issue.

Anyone who doesn't understand why "That's so gay" hurts may as well just say "That's so faggy," and "That's so dykey." For that matter, why not find phrases equally offensive to bisexuals, the transgendered, and even the intersexed? "Ewwww, you're such a hermaphrodite!"

That you hesitate to stop your son from saying "That's so gay" tells me you are not instinctively alarmed and disturbed by it. That upsets me even more than your 13-year-old son using the phrase in the first place.

Good God, man, you are the adult. You are the parent. Why do you worry what your kid thinks if you tell him, "NO"? I'm sure you don't hesitate to light into him for doing a lot of stupid things that cause pain to other people (and making him look like a fool; in this case, he is making himself sound hateful and ignorant, even if he is neither) -- so why hesitate about this?

If you don't know what to say to him, show him xchrom's reply.

[DuaneBidoux]

45. I don't hesitate because I don't feel it's wrong. I hesitate as a matter of effective parenting.

As I explained above, I'm not sure how you really pass along your values to a child in an effective manner. Although you can "prohibit" a child from using a word this doesn't mean they will quit, and in fact it can accelerate the behavior when you're not around. I think the better way is to truly help a child understand WHY the word is wrong. I'm not sure at this point my son is ready for the kind of profound understanding necessary to say one really understands why gay rights are important and that these people deserve to be treated with the same dignity as everyone else.

My parents consistently told me that "shit," "fuck," and other terms were evil and bad--but now I don't think twice about them. On the other hand they consistently used the term fag and insulted gay people and now I feel it is completely wrong. How did I arrive at these places independent of what my folks tried to teach me? I started understanding the real world.

At about 15 I started having serious doubts about the existence of God. I told my folks that I wanted to drop out of church a while to reflect on my own. Instead they clamped down even tighter forcing me to go to church every single Sunday until I went off to college. They tried to force their view of the world on me and it simply didn't work. Everyone, ultimately, must come to their own conclusion about right and wrong. For liberals this is almost always a journey of the head.

My son does not seem to be coming into his own sexually yet. When he is ready I think it will be an excellent time to come to the point where I explain that different people have different outlooks of their own. But I don't want to actually explain in depth what it means to be gay until he is ready to make his own journey as a sexual being. In the meantime I'm simply not certain that doing much more than "forbidding" him to say the term will really mean anything.

He used to every so often use negative racial terms. I told him not to say those words but it didn't seem to phase him. The real difference for him came about when he made his first black and Hispanic friends that turned out to be very good friends. Then he actually UNDERSTOOD it was wrong and stopped. That is exactly how I came to have an accepting view to gays myself--making my first good friend in college and finding out a year later that he was gay. Suddenly it was a slap in the face: the guy is just like everyone else and deserves to be treated the same. Empathy is powerful. This is why governments desperately want to keep their soldiers away from enemy soldiers on a one-on-one basis. As soon as you start seeing them as human it becomes much harder to treat them as less than human.

Anyway, as you might suspect by now, I have many things I am thinking about when thinking about this issue, and many of those issues have nothing to do with being gay and everything to do with how to actually help my child grow into meaningful values on his own.

[Sapphocrat]

59. This is what puzzles me.

You come to the GLBT forum to ask: "Anyone else familiar with kids using this expression? Thoughts?" Every LGBT person here who has answered you is very familiar with kids using this expression, and has very strong thoughts on the subject.

Yet you reject what you've been told repeatedly -- that it is indeed equivalent to "That's so n-----," and then you excuse even the comparison to "That's so black" as somehow inoffensive because you feel the intent to offend isn't there.

As most of us have written many times in the past -- and, I expect, will need to repeat, forever -- intent is moot. If you are straight, you have no grounds to tell a gay person whether or not s/he should be offended. If you are white, you have no grounds to tell a black person whether or not s/he should be offended. You are obligated to take the word of the people you are consulting that a thing is indeed offensive. You cannot reasonably argue that it is not.

As for "effective parenting," perhaps you are addressing the wrong group altogether. You already knew how we would react; what was your purpose in asking us in the first place, if you have no use for the advice we give you? Perhaps you need to consult other straight parents who have successfully gotten the point across to their own children that using "gay" as a synonym for "bad" is hurtful, hateful, and homophobic.

I hope you realize that the perfect explanation for your son is staring you right in the face: You said yourself that he stopped using racial slurs once he made a few black and Hispanic friends. Explain it in those terms: that just as his black and Hispanic friends would be deeply wounded if he had continued using words like "n-----" and whatever ("spic"? "beaner"?), there are people in this world who would be just as wounded to hear him use "gay" to mean "bad."

Ideally, I wish you would introduce your son to some living, breathing, gay people, so he experiences his own "slap in the face," but I have a feeling you might think that idea a bit much.

As for his maturity: I am not a parent, and never will be, but I haven't forgotten what it's like to be 13, or prepubescent. I am very grateful to my mother for laying down the facts of life to me when I was nine, as I hit puberty before I was ten. Yet, while I understood the mechanics of sex, was I suddenly mature enough to understand sexuality? Of course not. Children absorb information only as they are ready -- but to assume they are not ready does them a disservice.

Besides, if you believe that, at 13, he doesn't already know there are boys who like boys, and girls who like girls, I would bet any amount of money you are very mistaken.

No one says you have to sit him down for a six-hour talk about homosexuality in order to get the point across to him. You don't have to explain the mechanics of sex or the nuances of sexuality to him; what you have to figure out is how to make him understand that gay people are as real, and as human, and as deserving of respect as his black and Hispanic friends.

Why are you making gayness out to be all about sex, anyway? Sex is no bigger an aspect of being gay than it is of being straight. Stop focusing on the idea of having to give him some big Sex Talk, when you should be focusing on something you both understand already: treating others -- especially "others" who are not like us -- with courtesy and consideration. What's so hard about reinforcing this simplest of lessons, which we all should have learned long before we were 13?

[DuaneBidoux]

65. Thanks for you extensive and well thought out explanation.

I am considering it carefully.

[closeupready]

77. I totally agree with you. That Stephanie on Survivor used "that's so gay"

once or twice in reference to something another contestant did, and up to that point, I had really liked her. I guess I'm hypersensitive, but after that, I won't lie and say I hated her or even disliked her, but I definitely saw her in a different light.

[Smarmie Doofus]

24. The *huge* irony here is that school administrators....

... everywhere accept this blatantly pejorative use of the word but the vast majority will forbid explicit teaching on the subject( history, psychology, biology and sociology of homosexuality) that would serve to mitigate the damage done by the defamatory "gay = lame".

No biggie. Just a few teenage suicides here and there, that's all.

[kenny blankenship]

25. Gee how would you feel about

"that's so nigger!"
"that's so Jew!"
Would you have to ask whether either of those was acceptable? Would you even dare to ask?

[eppur_se_muova]

27. Flashback to a Simpsons episode--"You kissed a girl? That is SO gay!"

Since the point was to put down, it didn't matter that it made no sense. Perhaps this is as seriously as one should take it? :shrug:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

30. No, it should be taken seriously.

Would you allow your kids to make racist comments? Why should you allow them to make homophobic comments?

The adults should be the example.

[DuaneBidoux]

47. I DO set the example. I do NOT use them.

[dsc]

28. This is honestly quite offensive

Using gay for a negative conotation certainly belittles gays, it can't help but do that. We wouldn't stand for it's so black meaning lame.

[Glorfindel]

29. Stop your son from using it. My favorite nephew used the term

the last time I saw him, and I haven't felt the same about him since (he's 14 and knows I'm gay). I think he knows he offended me, but doesn't know how to make it right. I really don't care. It's practically unforgivable, so yes, please, if for no other reason, for your son's sake, ask him to stop using that term. It just might cost him an inheritance one day.

[DuaneBidoux]

48. It's practically unforgivable that your nephew used this term in front of you?

Jesus, I know sensitivity is important but good God he's a child. He's needs to grow and learn, not face a wrathful relative before he is even a high school graduate.

[foreigncorrespondent]

31. Wow!

You guys are truly behind the times, huh?

My (now 16 year old) niece was using this sick phrase for one day about four years ago. Notice I say "for about one day?" That's because her mother ripped her a knew one, explaining just how bloody offensive that is to people. Then I came along and explained to her that as her Aunty, who happens to be a lesbian she needs to realize what that term means.

Explaining to her that is showing every single gay person in this world that sh does not support the people they are, but rather thinks that anything gay is a negative on this world, she stopped using it.

So it is fine if you want to continue letting your son use a phrase that is not only outdated, but just how republican his parents can sound, then go for it. But if you want to be a progressive in this world, then you best listen to the countless queers telling you just how damn offensive this is to use. Then grow some balls and tell your son exactly why he should not be using such a term.

[index555]

72. and how many Gays have used the term "breeder"?

[Puglover]

75. Oh I KNOW!

Those poor oppressed straight white folk being persecuted by us vicious gays. The HORROR! :scared:

[Jella]

76. If all this were equal

I'd say you had a legitimate leg to stand on with that argument. It's apples and oranges, and franky the comparison is quite tripe.

[foreigncorrespondent]

80. Not many actually!

And certainly not to a straight persons face. Usually amongst ourselves. Gonna have to try a whole lot harder if you want to make me look like a bigot.

[goddess40]

33. I complained to the principal about 1st graders using it

and he said he'd take care of it - what did he do, what he always does -nothing

[Igel]

35. As others noted, it's been around for a long time.

Some time in the late '80s or early '90s it went from saying something was disliked because it resembled something a gay man would buy/use/wear/like to being a generatl term of abuse applied to objects of dislike. I first heard it from West Coasters, but a few years later it had spread.

At this point 'gay' (= "I don't like it") is pretty much a homophone with 'gay' (= homosexual). But I'm sure 'homophone' will irk somebody, as well (and let's not even think about 'homorganic').

Just as 'lame' has little to do with somebody who can't walk like people within the norm for physical ability, so the young adults I heard use it didn't consciously associate it with any sexual orientation. A homophone. A few seemed surprised by my not differentiating the two definitions.

One doesn't use it not because the user necessarily means anything offensive by it, but because others take offense. I avoid using 'niggardly' for just that reason, and have dropped 'tar baby' out of my lexicon. Not because intent doesn't matter and outweigh interpretation as far as morality goes, IMO, but because it's reasoning that doesn't work against emotion.

[applegrove]

37. It was used in the 1970s when I was a child. In fact I may have used

it at Disneyland before Nancy Kerrigan.

[Bluebear]

41. Well actually Nancy Kerrigan said it was "corny", not gay...

...so that leaves you with your lonesome at Disney. :)

[Occulus]

42. I use it with my gay friends

and so do they.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. yeah i hate it...

[mitchtv]

55. seems ironic to me; Gay should be a synomym for

good taste and fashion, while these little idiots use it in reverse as an insult. It would not get a good reception from me. It is extremely offensive..you wanna say fuck you you little hell spawn.

[Der Blaue Engel]

57. You asked for our thoughts, and I think you've gotten plenty

You've chosen to let your child say something hurtful to a particular minority without comment with the reasoning that telling him not to do something might make him do the opposite.

I really have to wonder why you started this thread, since you have your mind made up. Did you just want to rub it in the faces of GLBT DUers that you don't take our concerns seriously?

[Midlodemocrat]

60. My teens *used* to say it... and this is why I say *used* to.

When TeenMidlo, who is now 16 came home at about 12 with that term, I tried explaining to her that it was derogatory and unfairly bigoted. She didn't really understand until a friend of hers came out when she was 14.

She *got* it then. Even though I kept saying to her over and over that it was hurtful, as a teen, she really didn't get it. She does now because her friend is in terrible pain. The friend's parents have all but disowned her and I am frantically trying to establish a GLBT support group at the High schools to help the kids. We do have ROSMY, here which is Richmond Organization of Sexual Minority Youth, but it doesn't extend to the burbs.

I told BoyMidlo that it was hurtful, in much the same way that he was hurt very badly because he was shorter than the other boys until this year and we all know how very, very much we pride ourselves on 'looks' in this country. :eyes:

When I spoke with him about how he felt when he was being picked on for something that was a biological occurence; he got it. I'm proud to say they both 'get it'.

Disparaging gays in any way, shape or form is hurtful. Not just to the GLBT community, but to all humanity. It cheapens us, it lessens us.

Think about it. If you pick on someone for circumstances which are beyond their control, like eye control, weight, height, looks, etc., do you FEEL better about yourself? No, of course not.

Disparaging the gay community is an affront to all of us who seek human rights for all.

[torrentprime]

64. I'm gay

My straight friends use "that's gay" around me all the time. I don't care, as its the intent that makes a word an insult. They don't mean it as a harm, and 1/2 the time it's a joke. But they do so knowing that I will hear it, often as a joke. And I use it too, although I suppose it qualifies as ironic when I do it.

There are a lot of very self-righteous people on this thread, full of anger that you're not accepting their immediate sense of anger and outrage, but they mean well, and let's not forget: the term IS offensive, and is not gay-positive.

I would say that when your kid can handle the nuance, let them know that the word is right up there with any other slang term for a minority, and thus has a crazy assortment of cultural rules and requirements around it. Some people can use it, some can't, it's not polite conversation and can be harmful. If they use it in a setting where it's understand that gay=ok, then ok. If they use it blindly and to anyone, it's not. The reason I bring this last part up is this: if you can teach your kid to own the concept of the word, to really "get" that it is a minority word and not just this year's "sucks/blows/lame/got pwned," this may be the "Don't just tell them 'no' cause they will do it anyway" meme you are seeking.

And btw. No, it's not the famous N-bomb. "Nigger" has hundreds of years of blood and human defilement and oppression and liberation behind it. It summons one of the most disgusting and institutionalized racial imbalances in history. "Gay" can't begin to compare to the power of that word.

And even though no one wants to admit it, the very fact that "that's gay" is creeping into the vocabulary of kids is proof of how the concept of gay is changing. Oftentimes, the word is used to refer to stereotypcially gay things in addition to referring to "bad" things, and in this sense the use is no different than the latest copy of Genre or some other shallow gay rag: they use "How gay can you get?" all the time.

Yes, you do need to talk to your kid and explain what it means. Hopefully, he is mostly there with being gay-positive, as many kids today don't see gay as bad, they see it as odd or not suffiently macho, but try to nudge him over the line into tolerance and maybe even acceptance. But I agree if you come out of the next room screaming that he's just offended someone and it's as bad as saying "nigger," he won't listen: his culture and his friends don't see it that way, and he won't be able to merge his experience with your moral absolute. Talk, share, explain: don't scream.

Good luck.

[Jella]

66. Great post but...

I think gay is as bad as nigger. While we may not harbor the recent history, and I mean since the country was founded, but gay folks, have had to hide it for 2000 years. Yes you can't just tell by looking at someone, like if your black, but at least the black folk has the support of family, and community. Gay folks have suffered self loathing, dropped by family.... I mean dropped from Mom and Dad... when's the last time a black person has had that happened? Years of mental anquish can be as damaging.

Please understand that I'm not making light of the n-word, it's a cruel insult, but many gays have suffered similar abuse.

[torrentprime]

68. almost

"gay folks, have had to hide it for 2000 years."
We weren't called gay for 2000 years. We've been called gay for what, a couple of decades? And didn't gay men in the 60s apply it to themselves? This is not about the *issue* of gay rights, it's about the *word* gay. The word itself is practically a self-label, anyway, and as such it's always been "our" word; far, far more than nigger ever was. It may have been reclaimed as the "word which moden rap cannot live without," but it was reclaimed, not originated. "Gay" never had and never will have that power, imho.

But thanks for the thoughts. Again, I totally agree on your reading of history and how gay people have been treated; it's the terminology that isn't that old.

[Jella]

69. OK, you corrected me on that

and that's fair, however, it doesn't matter the length of time that word has been used, when ones say gay, they know who your talking about, and it does become about the gay person. I don't think any kid struggling with their sexuality is going to look, or care about the origin of the word.

But I do see your point.

[torrentprime]

70. I completely agree

That a gay kid who hears it won't know or care how it's meant. That's why I told the original poster that she did need to clear some air with her kid. When it's heard in passing is when it can shame the most.

[Jella]

71. Yup

and your post was great. Even with support groups, many kids are just not going to even approach such forums, with all the politic now over gay marriage, and the slew of evangelic and other religious rhetoric, I don't know if I would be willing to put myself out there even now. They do have the internet, so times are somewhat better for them.

[Maven]

84. "the term IS offensive, and is not gay-positive"

That's all you need to know. It's really not any more complex than that. When a straight person uses "gay" to mean "stupid" or "bad," it perpetuates homophobia by the use of the phrase itself, regardless of what was consciously "intended."

If you choose to participate in your own belittlement to be "one of the guys," that's your prerogative. Don't characterize the rest of us as "self-righteous" for demanding respect and consideration.

[xchrom]

89. this is -- without a doubt -- one of the MOST bizarre

replies i've read in this thread -- and there have been some strange ones.

you display this curious mix of internalized discomfort with gayness -- that i'm just a tad wow-ed.

but not enough not to say -- man you need to get to know your history.

your ignorance regarding the centuries of persecution of gay folk is stunning.

the word ''gay'' for refering to ''gay'' folk has been around since the thirties.

and it is part of the communities hard earned fight to form language acceptable to every one that wasn't laden with negativity --
get this straight -- that word is historically and culturally very important.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

67. I see it all the time.

I'm not crazy about it (whoops, I guess that's offensive too), but there's nothing you can do about it. That's just the way the word has changed.

[LostinVA]

74. Of course you can do something about it -- and, the word hasn't changed

That's the point.

[Ian David]

78. Find out how many times a day he uses it, and try to Jew him down to about half of that.

I'm just trying to make a point.

[torrentprime]

81. hm

Any idea on when (some) gay people will stop using the term "breeder"?

[Ian David]

82. Don't know. Don't care. 90% "Breeder" Majority of the population can deal with it. Yawn. n/t

[GOPNotForMe]

87. Classic bait and switch. "Breeder" is not the topic of discussion as much as you want it to be. nt

[Jamastiene]

92. Is that you, pnw...?

I could have sworn I smelled your perfume.

Oh yeah, we gay people go out at night in gangs and beat the straight people and call them "breeders" every single night in every single city in the world. :sarcasm:

[mitchtv]

113. I promise to give it up

when I have equal rights. how's that?

[NMMNG]

132. Any idea when blacks will stop using the term "cracker"?

Forget it. You aren't oppressed and never have been, and "breeder" doesn't do a fraction of the damage that slurs towards gay people do.

[closeupready]

79. I think we should start saying, "that's so bi"

instead - how about that? (no offense to bi members; again like Ian, making the point that hijacking a minority's appellation as a means of expressing a negative emotion/thought should be taboo.)

[Ian David]

83. I think we should start refering to things as "So Republican"

"I just got up for a second to get a napkin, and he totally took my seat. That was just so Republican of him."

[William769]

88. A bigoted comment is a bigoted comment is a bigoted comment.

I guess you know where I stand on that statement.

[sui generis]

97. calling someone a bigot is less malicious somehow

than being a bigot?

Just curious at the double standard. We hate it when gays are the whipping post but when people who are ignorant of malice are called bigots, all of a sudden we're lynching them.

How are we better?

[William769]

105. I never called anyone a bigot. I said the comment was.

There is a difference.

[sui generis]

109. well "you" being collectively

but bigotry requires intent, whether in your personal character or just in your actions.

To say it's a bigoted phrase is meaningless. The context is what makes it bigoted. I just think we're giving it too much power when we have a chance to use it to instruct.

[moose65]

93. Here's my 2 cents

I'm gay, and for some reason when I hear the phrase, I don't cringe in horror. I don't like the phrase, I don't use the phrase, but I don't get my panties into a wad about it either. Kids say a lot of things that are hurtful, and they do it because they're not mature enough to understand the subtleties of the words they are using, or they say things to "fit in" with the crowd. Most of them, hopefully, will grow out of it with parental support and explanations. So yes, we should talk to them about the phrase and explain why it hurts us, but most gay people I know have thick enough skins to deal with this. And I agree with many others, it's not the same as saying "nigger." That word is an insult itself, and conjures up hundreds of years of slavery and oppression. "Gay" is not an insult in itself. I'd be much more upset if they were using phrases like "that's so faggy" or "that's so queeny". To me, "that's so gay" sounds like the equivalent of "that's so blond."

[sui generis]

94. I'm a bigot and proud of it

jesus christ people lighten up. get out a little, and stop giving words more meaning than they should have.

Here's some cud for you to chew on: if someone says it with malice, then say something. Otherwise accusing people of malice where there was none will just lead to real malice. I am almost old in a few decades and evil and deliciously malicious and I know wherefore I speak.

If someone said "that's so gay" to me, directly, in a way that I could judge was meant to be harmful to me, I'd whup their ass and tell them that was pretty gay too. Other than that, I'd probably laugh.

Some days. . . . come one guys! And gals. This is silly. Oh, wait, did I offend someone by using the word "silly"?

[Puglover]

95. Count this a first Sui.

Normally I'm 100 percent onboard with your posts. I guess we have to move that to 99.5. :)

I equate the "that's so gay" to the male adolescent culture of "you're such a fag" "what a homo" etc. etc. And while I'm far removed from all of that young gay kids are not. And I remember how it felt to be teased and bullied and it sucked. And yeah, like you, I'm a tough cookie (maybe because of the teasing) and can judge the intent of someone. But I'm not sure a 15 or 16 y/o kid has the same skills that you and I do or the same options. And while ultimately I did okay with all of that some kids are scarred for years by that bullshit.

Based on that, I don't think it's a good thing. And I don't think it's "silly" to point that out. Like it or not it's using the word "gay" as a pejorative. And we don't condone or encourage using other ethnicities that way. So why is gay okay?

[sui generis]

96. we're looking for blanket rules to absolve us

from having to consider uniqueness in front of us. I despise blanket rules. That's my real point. If I can determine that someone is being malicious, then I'll do something about it, at that time and I don't care if they're talking pig latin in swahili.

But to sit here on a blog and have an opinion about all the linguistic "should be's" in the world seems silly to me. English wasn't my first language, and it's not my third. Words are words and when we offer august opinions on them we're giving them more weight than they deserve. What counts is not a word, or a symbol but the context and intent in which it is used and there is no blanket rule for determining context, or it wouldn't be context.

We're calling people who would never be a bigot who use a phrase like that "bigots". How are we less malicious than a "bigot" when we do that?

There's plenty of malice on this thread, so I just have to count myself as part of the crowd who may be more "bigoted" and less malicious.

I get your point, and I even agree with it in principle, but in practice I don't want to make rules to tell people how to think. It's more instructive to show how I think and let others make their own decisions, without rancor. I think most schoolmarms would get much farther in their opining if they did that rather than this scorched earth "either you follow what I say or you are one of them" mentality I see a lot of here.

"That's so gay" is like "that's so blonde" is like "that's so retarded". It loses the jab when it's not malicious and all we do is come across as annoying when we tell other people how they should speak and think. Why don't most of us just say why we do or do not use those phrases, without judgement rather than judge and opine?

We can't. That's what got under my skin on some of the posts above.

[Puglover]

98. As I said up thread I believe

if you are born in this country it is impossible to not be a bigot in some ways. I work on that crap everyday. I fuckin HATE it when I see a crappy reckless driver that happens to be Asian and instead of thinking "oh you rotten fucking driver" my programmed brains goes to an Asian slur. I don't even like admitting that but it's true. And I work on it everyday. So please understand the context where I used that word.

And trust me, I despise blanket rules as much as you.

Here's the rub. The OP came into our forum and asked what people thought. Some people responded pretty passionately and I think if I were in his spot I would sit back and listen rather than intellectualize and argue. If someone tells me in a sincere and respectful way that something I'm saying is bugging them I try (TRY) to check my ego at the door and simply stop saying it around them.

And I agree 1000 percent on your comments on the "scorched earth" comments.

[sui generis]

99. and I have one thing to say to you!

:pals:

[Puglover]

100. That means alot.

Thanks Sui.

[closeupready]

101. The threadstarter came in to our forum and asked a question about the phrase.

so we offered our opinion. Like the other poster, I almost always agree with you, but not on this matter.

Like the word "marriage", it's important to some people, not to others. Who am I to judge? There are probably dozens of threads discussing why it is important to apply the word "marriage" to gay unions. Is that because gays are more sensitized to the power of language? Is it because language and words actually help shape reality for millions of people? Who knows.

[sui generis]

103. I understand having a personal opinion on it

and marriage, the word, does matter to me very much because of context. I just think that you have to establish ill will first, and that to assume it first means one makes it where none may have been.

That and I wish everyone had or was a better parent ;). I think when I was in school if someone had said "that's so gay" they would have been accused of being gay because they said "gay" instead of "homo".

What a thing to obsess on. We learn by categorizing both negatively and positively. I have been accused of keeping house like a frat boy and I found that a javelin right through my shriveled evil heart. I mean, I almost had to go to therapy. Had they said "that's so gay" I would have been much more pleased. As it is, I can no longer chip a piece of dried toothpaste out of the sink and use it as an after dinner mint without suffering flashbacks.

It's horrible!

:P

[closeupready]

107. Good points.

Oh, the horror! :crazy: :D

[Puglover]

111. Ha! The word homo and fag

didn't even exist when I was in HS. The word was "fem". And I wasn't even all that fuckin femmy. Do kids have a 6th sense or something? Talk about a goddamned javelin!

On edit And I do NOT mean to imply that being feminine is a bad thing however in the 1960s and 70s in High School and in Iowa diversity was not yet a celebrated thing!

[moose65]

118. Wow.... I never heard "fem" in school!

I was in elementary school 1971 - 79 and graduated from high school in 1983. The words of choice in my day were "queer" and "faggot." No one ever uttered the words "gay" or "homo." And those were the words the guys used. Most of the girls stuck to the standard "sissy." Hmmmm. I know those words cut deep. To this day, the one word I can't stand is "faggot" or "fag." I'm glad we're not trying to reclaim those two! Actually I jokingly use "homo" and "queer" now, but I just can't stand "fag." If the kids were using the expression "that's so faggy" I'd be more upset than I am over "that's so gay."

[adamblast]

102. No, we're looking to stop hurting people.

Sui sez:
"That's so gay" is like "that's so blonde" is like "that's so retarded". It loses the jab when it's not malicious and all we do is come across as annoying when we tell other people how they should speak and think.

EXCEPT: there aren't thousands of kids killing themselves every year because they're secretly blonde or retarded. *These* are the kids you should be thinking about. The ones who are being trained to hate themselves by this pejorative usage. Intent doesn't matter. It *doesn't* lose its jab in the least if you're a trapped kid with shame issues, hearing every day how much society hates you.

[sui generis]

106. I said I agree in principle

however, it's not the casual "that's so gay" stuff that's causing suicides, not by a long long long shot.

Now that you've brought that up, let's address what really causes suicides in closeted gay teens. Let's talk about parents who try to "cure" their kids, or preachers showing up at your dad's military funeral saying he's going to hell because the army suffers gays to live.

I'm not defending bigotry, or hurting people at all. I'm just saying we have to use adult judgement instead of hysteria when we hear something we don't like. Not all our baggage is everyone's baggage, nor should it be.

You can say, as an adult, "I don't know if you know that phrase means more than you think: because . . . " and let them make their own choices. If they do the expected adolescent retort and say "that's so gay" then cream their smarmy little butts. But give them a choice first.

That's all. Rote rules protect nobody from being hurt. My goodness, we use the term "idiot" with impunity, when it would have horrified victorian gentry as rude and bigoted and unfair to the helpless.

Finally, we have to be able to mock our own stereotypes, at least a little, or we're trapped by them.

[adamblast]

110. Teen self-hated and labeling...

Sui sez: it's not the casual "that's so gay" stuff that's causing suicides, not by a long long long shot.

I'm not so sure. It's another clear marker of stigma, of how much the world hates them -- and it's one of the ones s/he's hearing most often, from the peers closest to him.

A kid today grows up in a youth culture where "gay" is an adjective meaning "stupid, lame, deserving of scorn and ridicule." You think that *doesn't* color his self-esteem when he starts to realize that he's gay too?

Society could hardly have done a better job of imposing stigma if it had chosen the word on purpose. We tried to make the word a positive one. This is the linguistic backlash.

[sui generis]

114. respectfully I think we're making more of it

than there is.

There is also a difference in rural vs. urban communities - but these days it could as easily be a gay kid saying that. There are much worse things that are happening than this phrase, and our concern with it is far out of proportion to its effectiveness as a tool of social oppression.

Everything colors a teenager's self esteem if they're unsure of themselves but not all gay kids are that way or are that way any more. It's considerably easier to be gay growing up today than it was twenty or thirty (or more) years ago, generally speaking. The worst aggressions were not social but real, physical aggression. The little social injustices today are given as often as gotten in highschool and nobody's cornered the market on low self esteem merely because of their gender orientation alone.

When we make more of it than is seemly, we tell everyone it means something more than it should.

I remember this EXACT same discussion about whether or not it was proper to say "sucks" in ordinary conversation. Now I hear it on TV all the time used by everyone from Bart Simpson to the weatherman, and no sex workers are commiserating on the offense anywhere (that I know of).

I just think we're making a mountain out of this particular molehill when there are real mountains right next to it and everywhere else.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

104. sorry sui..normally i agree with you..but thats so gay is insulting

becausing its meant to insult...equating gayness with stupidiity/bad taste/something negative..

i hated that phrase before i was gay

[sui generis]

108. I agree it is insulting too

and if someone our age said it it would bother me more than my kid saying it. That's so silly - we accept "silly" pretty much without considering that it is patently misogynistic too.

The context wanders, and we have to let it evolve. I would not be pleased to hear it, but whether or not I can determine that something is "meant" to insult based on a casual phrase is beyond my abilities. Yeah, not a favorite phrase of mine either, but I've heard it used completely innocently and in mixed company.

Having said all this and defending my superarchuberliberalness to everyone - I don't like the phrase, for myself, and I don't use it, unless I'm being mischievous and making fun of people who do.

[William769]

126. Nothing like being consistent.

:eyes:

[LeftCoast]

115. So saying (gay = stupid/lame/f*d up) is ok with some of you?

You think it's ok that gay kids have to hear that day in and day out? That a core and fundamental part of them makes them stupid/lame/f*d up?

Did you ever stop and wonder if maybe that kind of institutionalized homophobia *MIGHT* have something to do with why so many gay teens commit suicide? Maybe that's ok with you, but if it is, you might be posting on the wrong board.

So here's the deal, it's a free country. If you want to use that phrase or allow your kids to use that phrase nothing we say here will stop you, but you should know that every time you do you're basically saying that being gay is a negative.

For a vulnerable teen (ie any teen who's having to deal with being gay) you're helping them to internalize that negative.

"Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world." -Buddha

[sui generis]

116. whenever somebody says "so you're basically saying"

they're putting words in your mouth.

That's lazy.

The call to a guilt trip, to a judgement, to a flounce-off just means you'd rather posture a bit at our expense than find those troubled teens and give them the tools they need to deal with the real world.

Save the scolding for children - but speaking for making a mountain out of this molehill, we can't protect them from everything. If you are attempting to make arguing illegal in some fantasy world rather than trying to teach your kid to argue effectively in the real world you are doing him or her a disservice.

You can say why you personally don't like it. Some of us will or will not agree with some or all of it. But the judgement of those who disagree with you is not necessary.

[LeftCoast]

117. We can't protect them from everything, but we can make personal choices

Clearly some of the people here feel it's ok to use this term. I strongly disagree and have explained why. The fact is, people who use that term SHOULD feel guilty. Just as they should feel guilty if they used racist terminology.

As to making it illegal, I don't know where you got that idea since I stated quite plainly that it's a free country.

Now, you may feel it's making a mountain out of a molehill and I would agree when taken in isolation the comment isn't *that* big a deal. However, what I'm talking about is the day in, day out usage of a phrase that at it's heart equates being gay with something bad. I can't tell you how many thousands of times I heard that phrase growing up. Hell, I even used it myself. So if each time that was used it was a 'molehill' how long till the molehills add up to being a mountain?

I can't stress this enough - words matter. Is anyone going to ever look at Michael Richards the same after his n-word tirade? People need to understand the power that using 'gay' as a negative has, even if it's unintentional.

[closeupready]

120. One last post about this: I'm not sure how many lies it is between, on the one hand,

lying to your friends about "liking girls" when you really like guys, and on the other hand, ending up in a place similar to some of these middle-aged men with wives and lives, but letting the sort of environment fester where "that's so gay" meaning, "I don't like this/that/you" is acceptable leads to a lot of other, bigger lies on the road to adulthood. Some people here say it's not that big of a deal, and for many, maybe it's not; for others, it is, and rather than expose themselves to loneliness and rejection, they simply lie, for which they are rewarded, in probably most cases.

So not to belabor the point, but I did want to say that. Peace.

[kdpeters]

127. I wouldn't worry about it. To him, it's probably completely unrelated to orientation

As long as you instill respect for all people in him, that's what matters. He's not using it to be disrespectful. That's just language. It will evolve and this is one thing that's already become quite ingrained in youth culture. It simply doesn't mean to them what it means to us.

[kdpeters]

128. After reading some of the other responses, I've changed my opinion a little

Challenge him to imagine how a gay person might feel to be used as slang for all things negative. If he knows a gay person, ask if that's the way he feels about that person. It's good for him to consider these things so he can make a considered decision if/when to stop using it.

[Sapphocrat]

130. kdp, your second post...

...was the first thing that's made me smile all day. Thank you, sincerely, for listening, objectively. It means a lot. :)

[BattyDem]

129. That phrase was used a lot when I was in school ...

back in the 70s and 80s. (I've heard it used by teens as recently as the late 90s.) It had nothing to do with sexuality. "That's so gay" actually meant "That's so lame (or stupid or uncool)." I'm not defending our use of the word, I'm simply trying to point out that it didn't mean what adults thought it meant.

We eventually grew up and we realized that it wasn't right to use the phrase; it was offensive ... but no one ever told us that.

Talk to your son and tell him why it's offensive. If he disagrees with you, replace the word "gay" with another offensive/racist/sexist word, such as the "N" word. Since he's the child of a DUer, I assume that he'll be shocked by the use of the "N" word as a negative description of something. Explain that gay people feel the same way when they hear someone say, "That's so gay." Hopefully, your son will get it. :-)

[Siyahamba]

131. Please, try and nip this in the bud.

A lot of people say "it's just a word," but it's reinforcing the connection that "gay" = "bad" or "uncool." Imagine being a child and feeling same-sex attractions. But all around you in the school hallways you constantly hear that "gay" is something despised. Since you don't want to be despised, you stay deep in the closet, causing deep emotional and behavioral problems that will haunt you for life.

For the people who say "it's just a word," try sticking another word in there - say "that's so female" or "that's so Asian" and see what the people around you think. It's still okay to put down homosexuals, and using gay in the pejorative just reinforces this.

[Smarmie Doofus]

133. Wow, you're so *self- righteous*. Imagine....

>>>A lot of people say "it's just a word," but it's reinforcing the connection that "gay" = "bad" or "uncool." Imagine being a child and feeling same-sex attractions. But all around you in the school hallways you constantly hear that "gay" is something despised. Since you don't want to be despised, you stay deep in the closet, causing deep emotional and behavioral problems that will haunt you for life.>>>>

worrying about *children*.

I'm kidding, BTW.

[hyde]

134. I used to use the phrase myself in high school

Back in the late 90's when I was in high school it was a common phrase to use. I suppose everyone using it, myself included, knew that we were in fact equating homosexuality with lameness or stupidity, but that wasn't really the intention when using the phrase. It just didn't have that kind of connotation for us. We weren't pointing at gay pride flags or something when we used it. We were referring to homework assignments and hard tests. I suppose if I was having identity issues or something back then maybe it could have been harmful to me, but it wasn't. It doesn't insult or offend me even now, but I would encourage anyone I heard using it to stop using it, because people in my community, like many of the posters on this board, do find it offensive. It's also harmful if it continues to perpetuate negative feelings about gays and lesbians.

I fall into just about every minority catagory on the planet, but I'm not very PC. I use phrases like, "That's so retarded," and whatnot from time to time, and don't feel bad about it. I don't hate the mentally disabled, so I can kinda understand someone using the phrase "thats so gay" and claiming to not be a bigot or a homophobe. It is possible.

I stopped using the phrase, "that's so gay," by just growing out of it. I moved away from my small town at 16, went away to college, met people from all different walks of life, made my gay friends, came out, and grew up. So I agree with the OP...maybe letting your kid grow up and discover for himself that the phrase isn't appropriate is the best way to go about it. Of course, you know your kid better than anyone. You know if he's capable of learning that lesson on his own or if he isn't.

[DarkTirade]

136. When I hear someone do that

(and yes, it is mostly in the 12-13 year old age group... but it still runs throughout the older generation too.)
I usually respond with something snappy. When I was at a video game store a few months ago, there was a 12-ish year old trying out a demo. He gave up fairly quickly and said, "That game was so gay." I responded with, "Yes, but that's its lifestyle. And who are we to judge?"
He just gave me this confused look. Like he'd never actually stopped to think that the word 'gay' has a meaning other than the negative one he uses it for.
Hopefully next time he'll stop and think about it.

[DarkTirade]

137. I've heard at least one

homosexual also respond to something like that with, "If by gay you mean ABSOLUTELY AWESOME." :)

[hedgehog]

138. This thread reminds me of the Tar Baby thread that ran a few

months back. A term that meant one thing in one community meant something very different and very offensive in another community. Simple courtesy dictates that once people are aware that others find the term offensive they will stop using it. Another example is the adverb "niggardly" which means miserly. It is not a common term these days and is apt to be misunderstood, so the courteous thing to do is to use the synonym.