I'm curious... what do those groups that claim to make gays straight do?

[bobweaver]

What do they actually do to change a person from gay to straight? Not that I would ever go to one of those, I'm just curious as to what the techniques they use are.

[w13rd0]

1. Guilt, humiliation...

..."repentence", and then you have to marry a beard and seed some brood. Then you're "cured", viola!

[imenja]

2. brain washing?

something like might be done at Gitmo?

[w13rd0]

3. fraternity pranks

...but yes, it would qualify as brainwashing by some definitions.

[DrCorday]

4. always makes me wonder...

Are the right-wingers generally trying to purge the planet of homosexuals? Is that actually their end goal? Why do they think that's possible?

Even if they think it's possible, who in the right mind could ethically do it?

Now why isn't that just totally insane?!

[tjwmason]

10. Being fair to the fundies

They honestly think that we have all made a choice to become gay, and that this is the wrong choice.

Trying to 'cure' us is to them just the same as trying to cure somebody with an adiction to shopping or alcohol.

What I don't get is how they can believe that when so many of them are obviously closet cases themselves. Do they honestly think that they have made this choice, or is the whole homophobic hate thing just twisting their minds too much?

[foreigncorrespondent]

16. Oh please!

If they truly believed we had made a _choice_ to live our lives this way, then why on earth would these so called "cure" clinics use electro-shock treatment on a persons genitalia as part of their "cure?"

They know what they do isn't a cure at all, because they know that something as natural as love for another person cannot be "cured." What it is, it gives them some sort of sick thrill to see the torture being used on people they deem the lowest form of human life ever. And the reason they deem us this, is simply because most are closet cases themselves, and instead of making the choice to live their life they were born to, they prefer to make theirs and our life miserable instead.

[tjwmason]

17. Just because it's a choice doesn't make it easy to change

That it's a choice is an article of faith for them; when it becomes hard (for which read impossible) to alter then they merely escalate to a higher level of 'persuation'.

I'm not agreeing with them, but from experience they do tend to hold their screwy view as at face-value. I'm sure that many of these closet cases are utterly screwed up in themselves, unbelievably deep in denial. Yet everything I have heard leads me to take their claim at face value when they call homosexuality a choice.

[Sapphocrat]

20. Heheheheh...

(I chuckle only because the alternative is too wrenching...)

Only adherence to a religion/belief system (and in this case, a particularly primitive one) is a choice. Period.

Those poor, soul-sick, modern-day Mengeles! If I believed in Dante's (or any) version of Hell, I would sleep easy knowing the inner circle was reserved just for them. But, alas -- my God is the one so expansive as to receive even the likes of these putrid, mutated spawns of the primordial soup.

Pity their "God" fails them in this respect.

[JohnnyRingo]

5. Probably like Clockwork Orange

Real Horrorshow Droog

[glarius]

6. I think they press them between two boards!

Is that funny?....I was trying for humour...did I succeed?...The whole thing is so ludicrous anyway....These judgemental people who have so many charlatans leading them are pathetic....(I'm a straight, married grandmother and find all this crap about worrying about other people's sectuality a big bore!)

[justin899]

7. Funny you should mention the ex-gay movement...

near Houston they're putting up harassing billboards touting this ex-gay nonsense.

It's too lengthy to list here, but a good resource on the methodology these groups use can be found here.

Another great resource (if you have time to read through it all) is http://exgaywatch.com.

[Maraya1969]

8. Why should anyone change their sexual identity to please them

and their particular religious dogma? Talk about elitism!

[Maraya1969]

9. A quote from the first link

What other beliefs do "ex-gay" groups have about homosexuality?
"Ex-gay" groups believe that homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice,"


HOW can a thirteen year old make a lifestyle choice????????


Telling a gay person to become straight is like like a straight person to be gay. Most straights would find it horrific to be gay. Why would gays be any different?

[LostInAnomie]

11. I did some research on them in college...

... for my human sexuality class.

It is amazing, for as low as their admitted "success" rates are, and with their extremely loose definition of success, that they believe their own bullshit.

They define "success" as not having or seeking sex with someone of the same gender. That doesn't mean that they can't lust after it, or masturbate to gay porn, just as long as they don't seek it out or go through with it.

They also count bi-sexuals in with their total results of success. Most serious researchers would throw their findings out based on this, but that doesn't bother these people. They see what they want to see.

[tjwmason]

15. The problem is that we're too complex

Human sexuality is this incredibly complicated beast. I'm essentially gay, yet certain women turn my head. I've known straight men feel some attraction to certain men. We're human and the one constant fact about humans is we're odd, and strange, and bizarre.

It is perfectly possible that a bisexual who leans heavily towards the gay side could be perfectly happily married to a woman. This would then count as a 'success'.

The problem is that these apparent successes are used to justify the whole scheme which is screwing around with the insides of people's heads without knowing what they're doing.

[mitchtv]

26. I guess me getting to old to tackle a trick

qualifies as success.I am now officially straight.

[bliss_eternal]

12. Our former church's minister/pastor used to speak

a great deal about this. He claimed that he had 'reverted' many people that 'thought' they were gay. He did this by having the study the Bible and showing them the parts in the Bible (according to his interpretaion) that stated that homosexuality is wrong. So as another post here stated, guilt was part of his 'bag of tricks.'

He also stated that most of the people that he 'counseled' for this 'problem' had been molested as children. The women that 'thought' they were lesbians had been raped by men, and thus 'turned to women.' Or they were molested by someone of the same sex and this had made them feel they were gay.

Yes, he believed that shit. He also spent more time than we were comfortable with talking about how great the Bush's were (in his opinion)--yes from the podium on Sunday during his sermon.

Guess why we no longer attend that church.

[elehhhhna]

13. I OBJECT to GAY MARRIAGE

only when an unsuspecting straight person is involved.

Talk about a train-wreck.

[moggie]

14. Interesting Guardian article

The Guardian had an interesting article on "reparative therapy" last year:

Going straight

Executive summary: fraud, deluded people, religious blinkers. But you knew that.

[dsc]

18. Some treat homosexuality as an addiction

and use twelve step type programs. Others use aversion therapy. Still others tried talk therapy. None show any particular promise.

[kweerwolf]

19. According to a Washington Post article

that appeared several years ago, the "success" rate for ex-gay therapies is a whooping 3 percent. And the article suggested that figure may be primarily bisexually oriented persons who simply choose not to express a part of their sexuality.

All these ex-gay groups claim their success rate is much higher, but few do any follow-ups with clients and depend on clients to be truthful when they claim (often in the most coercive of environments) they have been "changed."

The major flaw in the ex-gay idea is that they assume sexual orientation is only a behavior and disregard the emotional/psychological aspects that go into a person's sexual identity. A gay man who has sex with a woman (while picturing Brad Pitt naked in his mind) is no more "straight" than a heterosexual prison inmate who engages in same-sex behavior when he doesn't have other options would be considered "gay."

[Brian_Expat]

21. I was in one when I was 19

I can tell you all about it. . . what would you like to know?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. how does it work?

[Brian_Expat]

23. I was sent to the multi-denomination program by a Catholic priest

I came out in confession and he gave me two choices -- kill myself before "acting on that urge" (since a "spiritual death is worse than a physical one") or "banish this from you."

Having been raised in a devout Catholic family (and being devout myself at the time) I was horrified and elected for the latter.

I was in university at the time and had to buy a car to drive up to New Hampshire to participate in the group. They also charged me, a starving university student, about $3,000 in fees over the six months I was in the "program."

Most of the participants were Catholics or Episcopals from upper-middle-class New England families -- doctors, lawyers and politicians' kids. All male.

We were taught to pray and made to play sports to "make us manlier." We had a flag-football league. The irony is that most of the people, including myself, were fairly "butch" and so the idea that we were "womanly" was pretty silly.

Whenever you had a thought you couldn't get rid of about attraction, you had to confess it to your "buddy" and he would embarass you into being straight.

The actual practice was different. Most of the participants faked "cures" (although I was too young and stupid to realize it at that time). As a result, I was faithfully telling my buddy every fantasy I had, usually involving whipped cream and Brendan Fraser. He got very annoyed and upset because my fantasies were turning HIM on! ;)

I was reported as a "hard case" to the "minister" who ran the program (he was from some tiny evangelical denomination) and got handed a key to a motel and introduced to an "ex lesbian." At that point I was like "no thanks."

The hypocrisy in the program was unbelievable. First, the minister who ran the program was himself very attractive and "ex gay." He used to seduce the handsomest members and then tell him he was "testing them" and that they'd "failed the test." I remember one very athletic very handsome fellow in his thirties breaking down in tears when itwas revealed to the rest of the group that he'd "failed the test."

There was also lots of hanky panky and destructive behaviour in the group itself. Many of the members formed close friendships (and I'm pretty sure also were having sex), and they'd head down for wild weekends in Provincetown, Boston or Providence with drugs and other such stuff, only to come back and "pretend to be cured."

I took my story, at age 21 after coming out to everyone, to the gay media and the Church denied that it had any involvement. The guy who ran the program denied the program existed, but then stopped returning the reporter's calls after I gave them copies of the cancelled cheques from my attendance in the program that proved he was lying. I didn't out any of the other program members (even though I could have) because I believe that's their decision to make and I couldn't make the choice to live honestly for them.

Hard to believe it was almost ten years ago now. But it was painful when I was there, being told I was broken and dysfunctional and perverted and that such an important part of who I am was "wrong and hateful." Of course, it helped that I was stubborn and that my bullshit detector was much stronger than my "faith." ;)

Incidentally, the priest who lied about referring me there and who claimed I didn't have any contact with him before in my life got transferred to another parish. Last I heard he was under investigation for something, I don't know what. I just cringe to think that he put even one other person through what I was put through, let alone several.

Does that answer your questions?

Note: Edited for clarity.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. yes it does

i am sorry :hug:

[Brian_Expat]

28. Awww, thanks

It's been so long that I think about it more with humour than anger. The only thing that gets me angry is the idea that kids might be forced to go through such crap rather than be accepted as equal human beings.

[Maat]

34. I'm so sorry that happened.

I would never want someone to go through that. My gay and lesbian friends ARE equal human beings (as well as my bisexual friends).

[dsc]

29. Good grief

I am so glad my insurance company refused to pay for me to go to one of those. It is amazing what we end up doing to ourselves after internalizing all the crap others spew.

[Not Me]

31. Man that's awful...

I can't imagine anyone, much less a priest, suggesting you take your own life.

(I can imagine them thinking it, but actually advocating it...that's rough.)

Thanks for sharing.

[Dark]

32. You should consider yourself lucky.

The priest could have invited you into his rectory for a few glasses of sacramental wine...

[Brian_Expat]

33. Even drunk, I wouldn't have done anything! n/t

[sundog]

35. wow

Sorry you had to endure that nightmare.

Thanks for sharing your story. :)

[justin899]

25. Another One Bites The Dust......This is a good one

Anti-gay P-Fox (Parents and Friends of ExGays) president Richard Cohen EXPELLED FOR LIFE from the American Counseling Association.

"NEW YORK (Tuesday, Jan. 25, 2005) Author Wayne Besen today released a letter he uncovered from the American Counseling Association that "permanently expelled" reparative therapist Richard Cohen in 2003 for serious ethics violations. As the outspoken president of Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Dr. Laura Schlessinger's ex-gay advisor, Cohen's expulsion casts a dark shadow over the disreputable practice of trying to change sexual orientation."
http://www.waynebesen.com

"P-FOX recently placed an ex-gay billboard in Virginia and sponsored a controversial ad campaign in Washington, DC's subway system. Cohen is also conference instructor for the anti-gay National Association for the Research and Therapy for Homosexuality (NARTH) and author of Coming Out Straight, a book for which well known radio personality and homophobe Dr. Laura Schlessinger wrote the forward."
http://www.rawprint.com/besen/012504_aca_letter.php

[Technowitch]

27. Psychological pressure, coercion, shame, guilt, denial...

[Lexingtonian]

30. something a little less than a proper exorcism

Not that I know any of this stuff directly. But if you go through the literature and propaganda- there's plenty of it on the web- it's pretty easy to figure out the theory.

After all is said and done, their basic idea of what human homosexuality is amounts to: a kind of demonic possession. This "explains" their belief that 'the media' and the physical presence of gay people leads to people being homosexual- the demon just hops over. And they suspect that there was some kind of point where this purported demonic possession could be resisted successfully or susceptibility could be avoided- that makes homosexuality a 'choice'. (Don't forget that selfhating gay folks are the essential sources for these theories.)

So they do all the medieval things, with contemporary appearances, that were the old exorcism methods. Endless readings of The Book, sermons, confessions, preachings, scarings, aversion techniques, etc. I doubt real torture or castration has been tried...much.

They advertise differently, of course, but after all their experiences the pragmatic aim of the therapy is really to make for people who are voluntarily celibate or will play straight. Bi folk always give them some kind of 'success' rate to point to. Ex-leaders of groups of the kind (Exodus International is the largest) almost to a person admit that they've probably not changed a single person's sexual orientation.

[6000eliot]

36. I suspect

they all blow each other when nobody's looking.

[One_Life_To_Give]

37. Make one Straight

2 x 4 and Duct Tape ;^)

[adryael]

38. I was in an ex-gay ministry

I was horrible- I'm still on medication (anti-depressants) for that, but I'll be going off them soon now that I'm out and proud.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. Good for you!!!

Welcome to the family!!! Get well soon, then enjoy all the time you missed!! :) :hug:

[msongs]

39. they WANT YOUR MONEY $$$$ - Jesus would do it for free if there

was a need. these people are all about making money off of homosexuals, either by demonizing them or pretending to cure them.


right wing homophobia is ALL ABOUT MONEY and also $$$$. they cannot gas jews or lynch africans, so the glbts are the best best going.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/dean4dnc.htm

[Liberal Veteran]

40. Not only is their "success" rate abyssmally low, but...

...apparently their recidivism rate is pretty high as well.

The founders of the first well known ex-gay group, Exodus, ended up becoming lovers.

Ex-gay poster boy Michael Johnston is still in hiding after that famous HIV+ ex-gay had been reported sleeping around a bit with some guys in Virginia using fake names and engaging in unsafe sex. He since closed his ministry and even the AFA confirmed he "fell off the wagon".

[jonnyblitz]

41. they preach abstinence. no gay sex means no longer gay.

to make a very long story short.

[Liberal Veteran]

42. I wonder how that works in reverse?

Logically, that would mean that anyone abstaining would not be heterosexual.

And one wonders: If an ex-gay goes out a date with someone of the same gender and they kiss, cuddle, hold hands, and neck....would they still be considered ex-gay as long as they don't consummate the relationship?

[Brian_Expat]

43. No because they also demand that. . .

. . . you "act masculine" if you're a man or "feminine" if you're a woman. Ergo, ex-gay man must act dumb and want to play tackle sports (but not TOO rough and tumble in a homoerotic way) and women must act meek and submissive. Well in their gender role universe anyway.

There's utterly no logic or reason to it. It's all crap.

[jonnyblitz]

45. yup. at their conversion camps they do makeup tips for

the lesbians and make the guys play football.

[jonnyblitz]

44. the way they think everyone is a defacto heterosexual anyway

and the homos just "choose" to engage in homo activity. I am not saying this is so...just relaying how they think.