Gay-Bashed at the Stonewall Inn -- yes!

[BillSam]

Okay, they say that if you live long enough you'll see and hear everything, but I admit I'm utterly flabbergasted by what happened to me last night.

I'm a friendly guy, and I occasionally start conversations with people in gay bars by asking if a twosome are a couple, how long they've been together, and so on. Sometimes I'm way off and the two guys tell me they just met half an hour ago; sometimes they've been together many years.

Last night at the Stonewall Inn I asked what I thought was a gay couple how long they'd been together and one of the two men immediately became enraged and began thumping my chest with his fist! I backed up and tried to calm him down. (I'm am not a violent man but if anyone deserved a sock in the jaw it was this jerk.)The next thing I know a young woman hostess comes out of nowhere and firmly asks one of us to leave.

Which one? You would imagine it would be the violent, inebriated, homophobic man who was ASSAULTING the gay guy who was NOT inebriated or violent, and wasn't assaulting anyone. After all, this is the Birthplace of the Modern-Day Gay Rights Movement, and their slogan is "Where Pride Began."

Well you would imagine...

The lady asked ME to leave.

Yes.

I'm still totally FLABBERGASTED. "Are gay men no longer welcome in the Stonewall Inn?" I asked her. I got no reply. (This was even more shocking then when one of their bartenders, who tells everyone he's "straight," confided in me IN A LOWERED VOICE that he also has sex with men.)

If I had been injured I would have gone for a cop, had the guy arrested, and filed a lawsuit against the bar today.

When the Stonewall Inn reopened they made much of the fact it was gay-owned (Ironically, when it was straight-owned a few years ago it was a lot more fun and a lot friendlier than it is now.) The bar was going to be a haven for all factions of the LGBT community. It HAS become mixed, but in this case "mixed" means gay and straight. The Stonewall is owned by the same people who own the essentially straight if supposedly gay-friendly Duplex down the block, but somehow drunken straight people bypass the two straight bars in-between and wind up in the Stonewall. Are they all gay-friendly? Obviously not.

Mixed bars -- such as the old 5 Oaks in New York -- can be very successful. But in the 5 Oaks if someone just whispered a homophobic slur they would be thrown out by gay and straight staffers alike so fast their heads would swim.

This man got PHYSICAL with me and was not removed!

I had such high hopes for the Stonewall Inn, but they've almost completely downplayed its history and significance and it's just more or less turned into the Duplex II. I am not letting this drop. I am writing to the manager/co-owner tomorrow and sending the word out to avoid the place at all costs until (if) this is resolved.

If they would prefer to have homophobes instead of gays for customers, I see absolutely no reason to spend my hard-earned money in the joint.

[msongs]

1. is he a "regular" and you're not? maybe he's a preferred customers cuz he drinks too much nt

[BillSam]

4. I've gone to the place about once a week or so since it opened

wanting to be supportive. I've never seen this maniac before. I'm hoping he really went crazy after he left and the "hostess" had a hell of a time getting rid of him, LOL!

[dsc]

2. man

I went there a few years ago and felt like a total cradle robber so I left. But at least it was clearly a gay bar then.

[BillSam]

3. Yes, it was mostly twenty and thirty somethings back then

but it was hot and cruisy, and most of all, friendly -- and GAY.

[dsc]

5. If there was a thirty something in there, aside from me

he was damn well preserved. I wondered if the people I saw were even 18.

[BillSam]

9. Let me make it clear that I never

saw underage "kids" in the old Stonewall and wouldn't have gone in there if that had been the case. I don't know how old you are -- I'm late forties -- but as we get older, people in their twenties can often look like "kids" to us -- only they're not. I went to the bar a lot and often saw people in their forties and older as well. In any case, it was much more convivial than today.

And as we get older the cops all seem to get younger and cuter (glad many of them are gay!)

[dsc]

14. I don't mean literally underaged

but these were clearly the under 25 crowd. Hey, under 25 is cute, but I am a bit long in the tooth for a 25 year old boy toy.

[rocktivity]

6. The Scrap Bar was a little like that

Not a gay bar, but the hangout for local hard rock musicians and industry workers. Legend has it that after a Guns N Roses concert, guitarist Slash engineered a six-hour drive to New York City just to have a drink there. But those in the know only went there during the week--Fridays and Saturday nights were strictly for the tourist trade!

:headbang:
rocknation

[soleft]

7. It sounds like you got a totally raw deal

But I don't see how this is gay bashing.

[BillSam]

8. A gay man is assaulted by a straight man in a gay bar

-- simply because the gay man mistook him for gay - and you don't consider it a gay-bashing!!!!????

Okay, I'm struck dumb twice in one week!!!!!

Jeez!!!

Are you straight or gay?

I sure hope you're not gay because then I would really feel like I've been BASHED twice, too!

[soleft]

12. Gay

I thought about your post after I replied and realized I hadn't really absorbed what you had written. They owe you an apology. Me too.

[LeftCoast]

10. Sounds like a bar aching for a visit by the GQB

Guerilla Queer Bar

[BillSam]

11. LOL, I've heard of GQB

-- parties of gay guys "invading" straight bars!

I don't know if they take their act to gay bars, but the way the Stonewall is going it'll be pretty straight before too long.

Accompanying GQB is about the only way I'd ever go in the place again!

[closeupready]

19. Berlin in Chicago used to be like that - predominating sex.orientation of the crowd changed seasonal

ly it seemed, or every other time you'd go, it was straight, then it was gay, then it was bi - you never really knew what to expect. Haven't been there in ages, but that's just how things are sadly. If you get a response from Stonewall's management, please post it here - would be very curious to hear what they have to say, and how they are going to address it (they probably will actually do nothing in response, but issue you a "sincere apology" and then consider it over).

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. yikes. thats awful.

[xchrom]

15. kick

[JackBeck]

16. That's terrible.

I've heard that Christopher Street is changing, too. Gay bars are being asked to put up black curtains so that families don't have to worry about their children seeing two men kissing.

[mitchtv]

21. Ha black curtain!

Stonewall had one, back in the day, less than a month after my last visit ,they had the famous "uprising". You could trade a joint for a drink. It was wide open behind that black curtain. Brings to mind the old Mafia controlled era.

[BillSam]

27. I will have to investigate this further

although I haven't seen any black curtains in the other gay bars on the street. So far.

[JackBeck]

30. I think it may have been Rawhide.

This may have stared back a few years when the community board started cracking down on all the LGBT kids hanging out on the streets, since they couldn't get in the bars or were outright homeless.

http://www.fiercenyc.org/what_we_do/campaigns.html

Mind you, the part of the black curtains was information given to me by a former co-worker, so it was purely word of mouth. But rents have increased in the neighborhood, displacing some LGBT business and the marked shift in attitudes, as witnessed by yourself.

[BillSam]

36. Rawhide is actually a bit north in Chelsea

and it does have the black curtain and the darkened windows of old (at least the last time I was there a couple of months ago). This is very atypical of Chelsea bars. The Gym gay sports bar a block or two away from Rawhide has an open patio on the front sidewalk and a completely different "freer" atmosphere. I don't know if Rawhide has the curtain because of neighborhood complaints -- unlikely --but because it's trying to create that kind of "sinister," sexy atmosphere of old-time gay bars, which many people find regressive, others hot. The Eagle leather bar, which is also in Chelsea but out of the way in a less populated area, also has the "old time" darkened atmosphere. I think it has more to do with creating a kind of ambiance than anything else, but it does seem a bit "pre-Stonewall."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. the more i think about this, the more infuriated i get. its not fair and its not right.

[closeupready]

18. I'm glad you've informed us, Bill. I hadn't been there for a while, and now I won't go back. Further

I'll actually have a good reason for avoiding it. Shame on them.

[readmoreoften]

20. I wonder how much NYU's purchase of everything south of Columbia University is creating this problem

NYU has eaten the Village almost completely, but its borders seemed to stop at Christopher Street. Whether or not it's NYU students creating the problem, they are making the climate in general "safer" for "normal folks"-- you know, stock brokers, straight girls who work in marketing, and lawyers. Not to mention the grad students from NYU's professional programs: law, business, education, and so forth.

The Village, along with everything else in America, has been lost to corporate interests and corporate culture.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

22. Isn't any unwanted physical contact "assault?"

eom

[BillSam]

26. I think that depends

To me a "gay bashing" doesn't depend on the amount of injury done -- it's a violent verbal or physical reaction to someone who is gay. Although she was hardly violent or abusive, in some ways I think the hostess "gay-bashed" me more than the straight guy did.

I didn't touch this guy in any way, shape or form. No friendly pat on the shoulder, and certainly no groping -- although I don't know if one gay guy groping another, for instance, is an "assault." Throwing a drink in someone's face is legally considered an assault in some states, as is a slap across the face.

I think pounding violently on someone's chest is an assault. I have a hard breast bone and lots of chest hair, so no damage was done -- if he had struck my head it might have been different, however.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

29. I guess

what I was thinking was that if you'd been so inclined, you could've returned with cops and an accusation of gaybashing; if they wouldn't act on that then at least it was an assault.

It sucks that this happened to you -- sounds like you were just being friendly (which, unfort, can be met with assholism regardless of the recipient's orientation) and you certainly didn't deserve to be treated that way by the guy or the hostess.

Personally, while I would probably not return there after that, I hope it won't put you off of being a nice guy who reaches out to other people as you described. :)

[skypilot]

23. It's been a couple years...

...since I've been to the Stonewall Inn (I live in Philly) but the last couple of times I went there the place just bugged me. I really didn't like it. No one there seemed particularly friendly and the bartender claimed to be out of nickels. NICKELS!!! This was in the middle of the afternoon. There was a condom dispenser in the bathroom with five cent condoms and the bartender couldn't give me nickels for a quarter. He also seemed to give off a strange vibe. It bugged me so I went over to the Christopher Street Bar where I always seem to get the same friendly bartender whenever I visit New York. And they have huge jars of FREE condoms.

I'm sorry about what happened to you at Stonewall and it really reinforces my resolve to avoid the place. I'm sorry that I feel this way about such a historic place but that is the way I feel. I just don't like the place.

[plantwomyn]

24. I f you want to continue going there

don't let him run you off. Write them a letter and demand action. Ask them to make a public statement. Call the bar and ask the owner or manager to meet you there. Make them talk to you face to face. Write a letter to the gay paper in NY and get them on the story. Demand an answer form the bar and if you don't get one make sure the community knows. If this is the bar's policy we queers should let them know they can't expect our money. Don't let them "stonewall" you!

[BillSam]

25. Thanks everyone for the comments

Yes, I'm going to follow up. I wrote a more detailed blog post on the situation and will mail it to the owner/manager just to start. I'm fully prepared that I'll just be called a troublemaker or asshole or one of those "fuckin' activists."

I had such high hopes for the bar. Its slogan is "Where Pride Began."

Notice the word "Gay" isn't in there!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. you should write a letter to the villagevoice too.

[derzauberberg]

31. Did You Know That Stonewall Inn Used To Be Owned By The Mafia?

Right before the Stonewall Inn riots the bar was owned by the Genovese crime family, and then after the riots was owned briefly by the Gambino crime family before it finally shut down. One of the reasons for the riots was to protest the Mafia ownership of gay bars, and there's a lot of documented accounts of many gay bars being owned by organized crime thoughout the sixties, seventies and eighties. See this link for a detailed account on the history of gay bars in New York City: http://www.bitterqueen.typepad.com/

Do you think that organized crime continues to own at least some gay bars in some American cities?

[readmoreoften]

32. Most gay bars were owned by the Mafia because no one else would own them.

It wasn't that the Mafia owned "gay bars"; it was that being gay was a CRIME and only the Mafia would take the acceptable risk of allowing CRIME to go on at their establishment to make a few bucks (for example, transgender dress and same-sex contact dancing was illegal.)

Gay bars are no more owned by the mob than other kinds of bars these days.

[derzauberberg]

33. But Why Does The Mafia Continue To Own Gay Bars?

I understand why the Mafia controlled gay bars in the 1950s & 1960s when being gay literally was a crime, and that is why the Mafia was the only force powerful enough to control gay bars which could then illegal exist by the Mafia making payoffs to the police. However, after it no longer was illegal for gays to congregate in bars, why did the Mafia continue to control gay bars in the 1970s, 1980s and perhaps even today?

The Stonewall Riots were just as much an attempt by the GLBT community to get rid of Mafia control of gay bars as it was to end police harassment. While the GLBT community has made some remarkable progress to end police harassment, I wonder what gains -- if any -- we have made in getting organized crime out of gay bars. There are repeated press & insider accounts detailing the influence of organized crime in gay bars in major midwestern and northeastern cities, and I want to know why law enforcement is allowing the mob to continue exploiting the GLBT community.

To say that the Mafia also has interests in straight bars does not redress the problem. I want the Mafia out of all bars -- gay and straight -- but the historical fact is that the Mafia had a monopoly over all gay bars (but not over all straight bars), and as a gay man I am sick of these organized crime thugs continuing to have any role in any gay bar. The Mafia is not a friend to the GLBT community any more than it is a friend to unions.

[readmoreoften]

34. I find your completely at odds with my experience of gay bars and unions.

I don't know of any gay bars in my city or any city I've lived in (other than NYC) under control of mafia influence. The connection between unions and the mob is mostly right-wing smear nonsense (although it had more validity in the 70s.) The only industry I've ever seen overwhelmingly owned by organized crime is strip clubs (hetero). I've also never met a gay bar owner or even a *bartender* who complained about or even mentioned the mob. Nor have I ever witnessed anything close to a mafia connection in my union, which was in the heart of NYC and I was very close to the president of the local.

I have encountered many folks in the mob in my life, all in the restaurant business and in the hetero strip club business. Maybe this just happens to be a problem in your particular community.

[derzauberberg]

35. oh really?

The Mafia has had an interest in at least some gay bars in Chicago at least until 1999. See http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/history_of_gay_bars_in_ne/2007/12/history-of-ga-3.html and http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/history_of_gay_bars_in_ne/2007/12/history-of-ga-5.html

The Mafia had an interest in an S&M sex club (gay on some nights; straight on other nights) in NYC in the 1990s. See http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/history_of_gay_bars_in_ne/2007/12/the-state-pays.html

The New York Times -- hardly a right-wing smear paper -- has reported Mafia interest in at least some gay bars in New York at least through the 1980s. See generally http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/history_of_gay_bars_in_ne/

The Mafia has had an interest in at least some gay bars in Montreal through the 1990s. See http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/history_of_gay_bars_in_ne/2007/12/history-of-ga-2.html and http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/history_of_gay_bars_in_ne/2007/12/history-of-ga-1.html

If you are interested in current mob influence in several unions check out http://www.thelaborers.net/ which is a progressive reform movement by union members.

I don't think criticism of the mob is a left-wing or right-wing issue: the Mafia is an equal opportunity corrupter (remember: it was the Teamsters who "convinced" Richard Nixon to commute the sentence of Jimmy Hoffa)

[BillSam]

37. Thanks for posting these links

I checked out that blog and found the material to be fascinating, although there was too much to digest at one sitting. I'll go back a few times and try to read it all.

Does the mafia still own gay bars in New York? I have no positive proof of this, but I wouldn't necessarily be surprised. It seems that organized crime can pretty much own a piece of any damn thing it wants. I won't mention any names, but there are a couple of large, very popular bars in Manhattan that employ certain kinds of doormen who stick out like the proverbial sore thumbs. There's just something about these guys (and there ARE gay mafioso).... Okay just because they're a bit uncouth, with hard dead eyes, and a certain rough manner, doesn't mean they're in the mafia.

Okay, who am I kidding?

I've long suspected that the mafia influence over gay bars has never fully dissipated. The mafia goes where there's money to be made. Strip clubs, splash bars (oops) -- gay or straight makes little difference to them. The fact that the employees may not see any mafia influence doesn't mean anything. They don't go around broadcasting it -- you just have to keep your eyes open.

Anyway, this is certainly something worth exploring.

I would not be at all surprised if organized crime factions own/co-own far more gay bars in
Manhattan than anyone realizes.

Derzauberberg, if you get any leads on this I'd appreciate you sending me a private message. Thanks.

[derzauberberg]

39. Yes, the Mafia continues to own gay bars in NYC

it's hard to trace a gay bar -- or straight bar, for that matter -- directly to the Mafia because it uses "clean names" or "front names" to hold the liquor license. However, I specifically am aware of gay bars in NYC that are controlled by the Mafia.

Unfortunately, the NYPD and the NYDA do not care -- nor have they ever -- about organized crime control of gay bars in NYC as evidenced by their complete failure to address this issue at any time over the last 50 years. Indeed, the only time the NYPD and NYDA looked into the matter, in a 1975-1977 investigation arising out of the mob murders of several gay men who owned gay bars but refused to play ball with the mafia, it suddenly shut down the investigation right when the investigating ADA and two NYPD detectives stated they were ready to bring indictments against the mobsters.

Inexplicably, even though those murders of gay bar owners remain unsolved to this date, the NYDA's office states that it no longer has the investigation files and no idea where they are in response to my Freedom of Information Act request. See http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/history_of_gay_bars_in_ne/2007/12/investigation-o.html This is unacceptable. There is no statute of limitations for murder; however, if new information now comes to light -- as often is the case with organized crime murders -- the NYPD and NYDA are incapable of addressing the crimes because of their inexplicable failure to keep these cold case files. Moreover, the NYDA's office says that it has absolutely no information on organized crime ever having any role at any time in the ownership of gay bars in NYC notwithstanding the undisputed record to the contrary. In order to deal with the problem of current organized crime control over at least some gay bars in NYC, we at the very least need a police department and a district attorney with a knowledgable understanding of organized crime enterprises.

Moreover, I filed an appeal of the NYDA's initial response to my Freedom of Information Act request, and although the NYDA's office was required to respond to my appeal within 30 days, months after the fact the NYDA still refuses, in violation of the clear law, to address my appeal.

The NYPD and NYDA's office was part of the problem in 1969; it remains part of the problem today.

[derzauberberg]

38. New York Observer Article

Here's a link to a 2006 article from the New York Observer concerning the Stonewall Inn prior to the time that the Duplex owners purchased the bar: http://www.observer.com/node/39357