No more Gay Pride.

[plantwomyn]

I was watching C-span tonight and saw Matthew Shepard's mom Judy at a forum at Stetson University in Florida.
This woman is very deep and almost had me crying. she told everyone to tell there story and educate people about us.
She talked about gay rights being civil rights and how in the 60's we all stood shoulder to shoulder to stop hate and discrimination. All hate and discrimination.
It started me thinking about the marches I participated in. Then things like Stonewall came to mind and even some small just us queers protests we had in Chicago. In the old days the Parade would pull into Lincoln Park and there would be speeches and political booths and people hanging out talking to each other. My years in San Francisco were much the same, especially when we found out how our boys were getting AIDS and how the government didn't give a shit.
Not so much anyone. My partner was asked to help carry the huge American flag with the Veterans in Chicago last year. It had been 5 years since our last Parade. It ended in Lincoln Park and everyone went to the bars.:shrug:
Judy Shepard is right. We need to stop and make them all listen. Judy said that when her son was murdered she and her husband didn't even know that we could be fired for being gay. She said that until we stand up and tell our stories we will never get our rights.
I agree with her. And I was thinking of how can we do it on a broader scale.
The Gay Pride Parade.
Can we make it less a drag show and more a showcase of gay citizens?
Don't get me wrong, I have GBT friends and have even fought with my trans friend's over who got to were which tank top. But I have been to the Parade and been embarrassed. Maybe I'm getting old but I don't think so. Straight or gay people with their body parts hanging out all over the place and rubbing on each other never has done much for me. Maybe I'm a prude.
I was thinking of the Lawyers in Pakistan protesting and how they got more notice by the media because they were respected in their own and our society.
Maybe if we marched as ourselves. Not Drag queens or kings, but as their cable guy, teachers, police officers, nurses and students. No more floats. Right down on the street, in their faces. Nice and slow and looking them in the eye.

[PDJane]

1. Yes. I believe that's the way to go.

I also don't think you're a prude, but I do think that a little modesty could be a good thing.....truly. I've watched the Gay Pride parade here, but, like the Caribana parade, it gets out of hand really easily, and once you've seen a couple of bare bodies....meh! It gets old in a hurry.

[maddiejoan]

2. What has always struck me

"No more floats. Right down on the street, in their faces. Nice and slow and looking them in the eye."

You just described the "T" in GLBT exactly.

Look for us next time. We're not the ones in the feather boas, sequin shorts, and painted bodies. We're usually the ones dressed in whatever our everyday clothing is. We can't afford floats and balloons, we're usually way in the back of the parade. Look for us sometime and see that we are proud and fighting and still very sad.

[plantwomyn]

3. I was a "monitor" for a float

and the boys from our bar got OUT OF HAND. Picture those long foam pool toys and use your imagination. I would have walked away if my mom wasn't on the float with a broken leg.
I realized when I was a little baby dyke that my T sisters/brothers were some of the most brave people in the world. I'm talking about walking down the street on the way to breakfast in MILWAUKEE in 1972. Cars stopping in the street threatening us, and men pushing and screaming in our faces. Scared the shit out of me but it made me so proud to be their little dyke sister, all I could do was smile.

[maddiejoan]

4. invariably

television coverage of GLBT events will flash on some 'drag queen' (gay male in elaborate drag for the parade) when talking about the transgendered presence at the parade.

They never actually film the real T men and women at the parades.

[plantwomyn]

7. They did interview my partner at the Chicago parade

and played her clip on channel 9. Of course some may think she WAS in Drag. In her cute little fatigues and army hat. Oh stop me I'm gushing.

[NMMNG]

12. No, they don't

And the bigoted RRRW never notice nor mention the average LGBT people in the Pride Parades. Both groups do it for the same reason: Sensationalism.

The media wants to get what they know will get viewers' attention and that's why they go for the flamboyant people on the floats. The RRRW whackjobs want what will get their lemmings in an uproar and bring in the $$$ so they do the same thing.

We can't do anything about the RRRW (as far as the parades go) but we can do something about the media. Demand they pay attention to everyone, not just the outrageous stuff. One way or another we have to turn the tide.

[plantwomyn]

63. At Chicago '07 the media was in full worse.

They had the scaffolding up and blocked off. We were made to line up around the media venues. They advertised that they were going to broadcast the whole parade for the first time, albeit at later time in the evening. Since my partner was in it I taped the whole thing. They didn't show the parade from the beginning, but they made sure that the politicians got there close ups.
The entire Veterans contingent wasn't shown at all. hmmmm wonder why?

[Jersey Ginny]

5. I agree but I'm torn because it is a day of fun. I also wouldn't bring my kids

They are 8 and I wouldn't bring them to see the parade yet because I think there is too much tight leather and bare skin and gyrating pelvis's! Yup, I'm getting more prudish than ever.

[davidinalameda]

9. you see worse on MTV and most other basic cable channels

sorry

[Fearless]

11. I'd have to disagree, having seen both.

But that's not the core problem. The problem lies within the fact that people believe that this is all we are (sex-crazed, cross-dressing, party-going, multi-partnering, orgy-loving, cockteasers and what-not). Until we defeat this premise, prove that we are something more, we will not be treated with respect and I daresay even that we will not have earned respect. I know many people don't believe that and I'm sorry that must be so.

[Fearless]

6. I've been waiting to make something special my 1000th post...

which leads me here, not to talk about politics or infighting, caucuses or primaries, but this. And not to aggrandize myself or presume it's a major accomplishment, because it's really utterly inconsequential, but to respond to this post, which I think is very important.

What we're talking about here is giving people the "right" idea about who we are and not letting them get the "wrong" idea about what being GLBT means or doesn't mean. Firstly, above all, we must not change who we are to accommodate others. That's what many of us, now and historically, have done throughout their lives... tried to be someone they weren't, tried to live a lie.

But I agree with you. We should probably tone down, at least nudity and lewdness as you've said. This must happen because we don't want to support the ignorant premises conservatives proliferate about us and our lifestyles. We do have to prove that we're something MORE THAN sex-crazed, cross-dressing, party-going, multi-partnering, orgy-loving, cock-teasers and what-not. (Now that I've made some people angry, let me explain...) Regardless of whether these qualities are, in actuality, good, bad, or neutral, they are not all that we are. We are doctors, and nurses, and teachers (myself included), sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, etc. If we are to defeat the Defense of Marriage crowd and in all hope within two decades get a true equal rights amendment passed, we must emphasize this side of us to the rest of the country publicly. Privately we must come out to our friends and families so that the number of people who can be ignorant of our good qualities (as a friend or family member, as a co-worker, as teachers of children and doctors and nurses, firefighters and police officers) will shrink. I firmly believe that the only way we can triumph is to get them to like us on a person-by-person basis. From there their ignorance will fade and they will join us. We cannot ram change down their throats. It has to be voluntary and it must be amiable.

What we cannot do is prove them right. We cannot let them think that ALL WE ARE are sex-crazed, cross-dressing, party-going, multi-partnering, orgy-loving, cock-teasers and so on. There is more to us, qualities that they might find admirable (I know that there are many that I do). They must love us for the qualities that they find in us that they see as good, and we must learn to love them too for the same reasons. Live the change; be the change.

Of course, some of us are sex-crazed, cross-dressing, party-going, multi-partnering, orgy-loving, cock-teasers and that's fine. But plenty of them are straight too. They have to keep their pants on in public, and I think that we should have to too. If we want the rights that we desire we must accept the responsibility that comes with them. Of course, at least I think, that everyone's a bit of a sex-crazed, cross-dressing, party-going, multi-partnering, orgy-loving, cock-teaser and I welcome that in my life. It is a part, I believe, of who we all are as men and women. We should embrace it and deny the Victorian Era sexuality that we've held onto for so long. But, we also have to understand that part of being adults is knowing when and where we should be respectful and when and where we should let our urges go free.

I know it's a buzz kill and that Victorian views of sexuality are a bane on society, but we cannot skip steps. First we gain acceptance, then we can help push that issue too. Otherwise we have no power to affect the latter; in fact, we might detriment it if we try.

Cheers!
NTF

[plantwomyn]

8. Congratulations!

:applause:
I agree with most of what you say. But I've been waiting a looooooooooog time. Civil rights have NEVER come voluntarily in this country. I have no problem with being amiable but I'm more of a "WE'RE HERE. WE'RE QUEER. GET USED TO IT." type of person. Too many marches, too many dead friends, too many beatings, too old to wait for rights of citizenship. Want them now, RIGHT NOW!

[Fearless]

10. I come from the other end of the battle.

I'm still, forgive me for the comparison, very young. I couldn't begin to understand the frustration of your generation, to watch all the progress of the 60's and see GLBT rights virtually forgotten in the ensuing years, to live through Reagan and the beginning of AIDS, the half-assed "progress" of DADT, Matthew Shepard, or any of a thousand of other things. But I do know one thing if I know anything: It-is-almost-over. Maybe not everywhere all at once, but at least in key places, and growing. Everyone should be very, VERY proud of the youth of this country. The conditions of high schools today for GLBT, at least in the Northeast where I live, was unfathomable even at the beginning of the decade when I graduated, even in my own old high school. I know of openly gay athletes, jocks if you will; I'd never have dared to think that would happen before. Kids don't step around it, they don't avoid it, it is simply a non-factor in so many schools that I've seen in MA and NJ. You wouldn't believe me. I barely believed my eyes.

I have no doubt whatsoever that it's only a matter of time. We're going to get through this finally, here and now. I know we will. The next decade will be a bittersweet one for sure.

[NMMNG]

13. Mardi-Gras

"Girls Gone Wild"
976-GIRL (and all of it's variations)



GLBT people have a parade where some people act outrageous and bigots act like it's representative of all gay people. They try to say that GLBT people are promiscuous, perverted, sleazy, etc.

But does anybody begin to claim that straight people are all promiscuous, slutty, loose, etc. based on things like Mardi-Gras, "Girls/Guys Gone Wild" or the thousands of sex chat lines (not to mention the plethora of online porn)? No, they don't. Because they know that a subset of straight people behaving that way does not the entire population make.


We should not buy into the big lie that all gay people are represented by the actions of the few, and we should fight it by becoming more visible as the ordinary people we are. Many of our more "outrageous" brothers and sisters fought to attain the rights and freedoms we enjoy today (few and precious as they are). We shouldn't deny their sacrifices by trying to constrain them.

[Fearless]

14. Exactly!

[Amimnoch]

17. *loud applause* Exactly!

Thank you! Perfectly stated!

[terrya]

18. Bingo

That's the perfect analogy. Thank you.

Yes, in the Chicago Gay Pride Parade, there's the drag queens and the buff boys on the floats wearing practically nothing at all. But there's also the P-Flag contingent (which never, ever fails to elicit huge rounds of applause as they pass by) and the various GLBT organizations affiliated with businesses, churches and universities. The representatives of the various television stations here. And, yes, politicians galore...it will be especially true this year, an election year (gosh...maybe we'll see Obama!). The Pride Parade is a big tent, representing all.

[plantwomyn]

20. Which freedoms have we attained?

Name me one that effects EVERY GAY CITIZEN of this country.
I marched for civil rights in the 60's. The churches and activists of all colors marched side by side. Where are they for us? It's the same old story. White women fought for the 15th Amendment and heard crickets from black men when they were asked to support women's suffrage.
Gay people marched in EVERY civil rights march and now the we wish the crickets could be heard but instead, the black churches have turned their back on us and in many cases are our worst enemy. Hell NOW and the DNC can't even be counted on to stand with us. We need to hold them accountable for their indifference!
As a woman I expect there to be double standards. Being bi-racial , I've been called "chink" and had to fight every other nationality and race you can name. I have experience discrimination first hand, sexism, racism and homophobia. If their is anyone who doesn't "buy into the big lie" isn't me. But I'm not the one who makes the rules. It isn't a fluke that the young black men who sat at the Walgreen's counter were well groomed and dressed. They made the decision to represent themselves and their race with what they saw as there best foot forward.
The Gay Pride Parade is the only time we seperate ourselves out from the crowd and take the streets to say HERE WE ARE. I am not saying that a bar shouldn't have their Ms.

[NMMNG]

43. I stated that what rights we'd attained were precious and few

I even blogged about how little we've gained over the past 30 years, and the way we're experiencing a repeat of those long ago trends. But we have made some advances incrementally state-by-state. Marriage in MA, Civil Unions/Domestic Parnerships in states like NJ and CA. Many states have ENDA type laws and hate-crimes protections.

And don't forget the gay bars, clubs, community associations and the like. If it weren't for a bunch of queens rioting at Stonewall we wouldn't be able to have them so openly. They'd be tucked in corners and we'd be furtively sneaking into them hoping the police didn't raid them. I look like a mousy librarian but I appreciate my more flamboyant brothers and sisters just fine. They've done a lot on our behalf.

But we need to fight like hell to get what we deserve and it goes beyond pride parades. No more asking for it. We need to demand it. Otherwise we'll never get it.

[plantwomyn]

47. The fight started way before Stonewall

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_Bilitis
"The Daughters of Bilitis /bɪ’li:tis/ (DOB or, the Daughters), is considered to be the first lesbian rights organization in the United States. It was formed in San Francisco, California in 1955. The group was conceived as a social alternative to lesbian bars, which were considered illegal and thus subject to raids and police harassment. It lasted for fourteen years and became a tool of education for lesbians, gay men, researchers, and mental health professionals.

As the DOB gained members, their focus shifted to providing support to women who were afraid to come out, by educating them about their rights and their history. Historian Lillian Faderman declared, "Its very establishment in the midst of witch-hunts and police harassment was an act of courage, since members always had to fear that they were under attack, not because of what they did, but merely because of who they were."<1>

I don't disagree that we have "come a long way baby" but the "gay bars, clubs, community associations" have been there as long as Ive been queer and we are still "tucked in corners" and still "furtively sneaking into them hoping the police didn't raid them."
Cops sit outside of the bars and wait for us to leave. DUI anyone? Call the police from most gay bars in America and time how long it takes them to come if they come at all.
I moved to Indiana to be close to my mom. I hope I she lives forever, yet that holds my here and I bought a home. I do not live in MA or NJ or CA As I said elsewhere I don't begrudge our flamboyant brothers and sisters their day in the sun. But I have been a part of many a group that are dressed for the parade differently then they are for any other "celebration". That is not who they are, but that is the image the world sees of them on the most OUT day of the year.

[NMMNG]

55. Indeed it did

And I'm well aware that, particularly in certain areas, gay groups are targeted still. That's why we need to continue our fight with more effort. The RRRW is highly organized and well-funded. They inflame their base with conspiracy theories and propaganda that makes it appear LGBTs are a massive threat to children, families and America as a whole. We need to work much as they do (though not with lies and hatred). We need to be organized and strong because it's going to be a difficult task.




Until a few months ago I lived in MD which may be a "blue state" but is hardly all-that when it comes to gay rights. Right now Montgomery County is in a tizzy because they're trying to get a bill giving gay and TG students protection from discrimination. The RRRW gassbags have organized an attack against it complete with a phony "man in a dress" who went into a women's gym locker room to draw attention to the "plight" of those poor girls who would have boys in dresses invading by the scores if the law took effect. :eyes: Funny how the RRRW, the party of "Moral Values" constantly stoops to lies and deceptions to get their way. MD also recently voted against same-sex marriage of course.

Now, thankfully, I live in CA where I can be more free (though there's an effort underway to "protect marriage" even here--bigotry knows no boundaries). I'm can do more to effect change and advocate for LGBT rights. And thanks to the defeat of the Matthew Shepard Act, the dropping of "T" from ENDA (which may not make it past GBW anyway) and the fact that we still don't have marriage rights I'm fighting mad. I'm also galvanized after my recent movie-extra experience and realization that the more things have changed, the more they've stayed the same.


I'm kicking ass and taking names, so to speak.

[spoiledrotten]

15. Stone Wall

In early June, 1968 I turned 23 years old, and later in that month I spent some time in jail during the Stone Wall riots in my neighborhood in The Village. This was just a little before "GLTB" could be recognized as anything to do with gay. I ended up with about 30 stitches in my face and some still show. After this, community members decided to make their lifestyle public and Gay Pride parades became Sunday Fare. I have to agree that good behavior would go farther in winning the battle of public opinion, but I hope my time in jail and the stitches help sustain the rights of GLTB to express themselves in legal demonstrations. After all, what is so different in a parade and the Mardi Gras. I am just very glad that King George's try for a Constitutional Amendment went down the tubes.

[unsavedtrash]

38. Thank you

:loveya: :hug:

[Bluenorthwest]

48. Thanks

Just thanks.

[queerart]

16. Carnival In Rio de Janeiro Should Also Be Stopped.....

As They Wear Even Less Clothes, And Cover Considerably Less Than The Gay Pride Parades Here In The States.....


But The Problem With Shutting Down Carnival Is That People Fly In From All Over The World To Partake.......


With That Said, It Appears That No Reports Of Blinding.... Or Hairy Palms Have Been Reported From Viewing Carnival As Of Yet......


Nor Has Anyone Accused The Merry Makers Of Being A Roving Band Of Whores......


As Anyone Who Disagrees With Carnival, Usually Stays Home....

[Smarmie Doofus]

19. GP has become a muddle. Nothing of importance is effectively communicated.

What's needed is two separate parades, one political and the other for the exhibition and celebration of gender and sexual nonconformity.

Suggestion: keep the political statement for the last Sunday in June for historical reasons. Do the celebratory thing on Fat Tuesday or pick a warmer-weather date arbitrarily from the calendar.

It matters less to me what people do at GP Parades than what the media tells the rest of the population. As it stands now, media coverage simply reinforces existing sterotypes. As such, GP Day has been effectively neutered.

[plantwomyn]

22. If we did that how do we teach the young ones?

And how do we inspire the older ones who aren't involved to get involved? There is no reason we can't be wild and crazy one minute and a strong political coalition the next. BYOB and munchies and at the end of the Parade sit and listen to the activists and leaders who are fighting in the trenches everyday. This is how the Chicago and SF Parades used to be. We protested at the Parade against Anita Bryant, Ronald Raygun, and filled the streets to demand AIDS research and treatment. ACT UP!
The Media has very little else to cover but the stereotypes. To give them credit, the news coverage in Chicago was neutral. They showed the Veterans and the naked boys, the Police float and the bible thumpers.
We cannot count on the MSM to be our voice. Look at the primaries. All the candidates have powerful media handlers and they still have little control over the coverage.
I also think we need to challenge our families to come OUT OF THE CLOSET. My family is pretty much there. My mom, aunt and uncle are totally supportive. They tell everyone how proud they are of us and do not suffer the bigots. They don't let anyone get away with "lessie" or "faggot" jokes or comments without saying Hey, my daughter is gay and I don't appreciate that.

[WRPendleton]

25. I think this is right on the money....

In fact Matt Shepard's mother mentioned exactly this in the Q&A portion of the presentation. In response to a question about how to be more effective in making change happen she mentioned that she basically didn't have all the answers and that each person had to do as best they could; but she also expressed a point of view that change can really be sped up by having allies point out inequalities for GLBT folks. This doesn't mean we just let others fight our battles, but we need allies and family. I, like plantwomyn, have seen this in my own life when my mother and sister have basically called people out for homophobic beliefs and statements. In the end if people see only GLBT folks fighting for their rights its too easy to frame it as "gay agenda", but when a substantial number of the people doing the fighting are not GLBT especially family members of GLBT folks it much more clear that its the basic civil rights issue we all know it is.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. exactly. we need two different parades. one maybe a protest and one a parade.

[plantwomyn]

28. Wouldn't it be great though

If all of a sudden we made the parade onto a protest. All those politicians and corporate sponsored hijacked into something meaningful.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. i disagree, i think we should have a day to celebrate and just be.

i also think we should have a more political day. there is no reason why gay people cant have two days in a year. one for a somber recognition of our lack of rights and another for our celebration of our community, and of sexuality in all its colors.

[plantwomyn]

23. Celebrate and just be what?

What I'd love to see is in the middle of all the music and catcalling we just stopped, all of us, and had a moment of silence. Hold up signs that have the list of rights we demand. One whole minute of total silence and discipline that might show them that we are more than pretty happy queers.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. what would you like to remove? drag queens? dykes of bikes?

cos generally speaking the media shows a few clips of those two. maybe we should not allow nudity and that should be considered.

[plantwomyn]

27. Why do we have to remove anything?

NO NO NO me likes the Dykes on Bikes! Ain't nothin' like a big ole Drag Queen hugging the stuffing out of you. Only time of year makeup touches my face.
This isn't about excluding, it's about showing them who we really are. Wouldn't we all like Buffy to bring her kids? Straight and gays do thing they don't want their kids to see. Go to the bars and get naked if the owner lets you .
It's easier for me I admit, way past the time when I did too many things I didn't want my momma to know about. Sex and Drugs and rock and roll. But I think we all agree that The Parades have become about EXCESS not PRIDE. The way things are today they see Drag Queens on TV every day. And at the Parade some of us should look in the mirror and ask ourselves if our kid, mom, brother or sister would be embarrassed. Hell if you're going to do Drag look good GIRL! I have been embarrassed by my friends and not necessarily by how they looked but by their actions. I know it isn't fair. No one person wants to be held responsible for how the world sees their community. I don't represent all Dykes and I'm positive I have done things in the past to embarrass my sisters.
I'm just saying we can do better. Can't we?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. i fear that this sort of thing will make us want to closet the non conformists amongst us

its one thing if we have a general rule like no nudity but the line between excessive drag or good/bad drag, how would your mother like to see you in this outfit is just making a lot of our community go into hiding.

[Touchdown]

42. Nobody. Remove the Harleys and evening gowns instead.

Those are things. There are real people under that makeup, and sitting on that gas guzzler.

[lightningandsnow]

29. That hasn't been my experience.

In my city, I have seen the things you described, and I really don't have a problem with them (except for the nudity, perhaps). I think it's great to have one day to kind of "let it all hang out" and have fun - for example, I really enjoyed wearing all my rainbow stuff, even if someone thinks that's "Flaunting". But I also saw a lot of "normal" (god I hate that word so so much) looking people - we even have a "Family Pride" thing for parents with children, and "youth pride" events for teens and young adults.

I don't believe in the whole "We're just like you" thing - not because it's neccessarily untrue, but because it's often used to shut nonconforming queers up. BDSM folk, trans people, drag performers, political radicals, artsy types, punks, goths, femme men, butch women and polyamorists have all, at one point, been forced into a sort of closet to give the LGBT movement greater appeal to conservative straight people. And I find that unacceptable - because we need to fight for the rights of all of us, not just a select few who fit into some narrow definition of "normal".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. damn! for a teenager you are so eloquent. i mean you would be eloquent for an adult too

but its just amazing that you are so young and yet your arguments are so cogent. :thumbsup:

[plantwomyn]

32. I don't want to be just like them

I want them to see that THEY are just like us. I was a radical feminism lesbian anarchism on the streets of Chicago in the late 60's. I've marched in at least 15 Parades in IL, IN, and CA.
I wish I could figure out how to post a picture. When my partner carried the flag last year in Chicago she wore her Swat boots, fatigue shorts and hat with her skin tight rainbow tank top. I have no problem with what some call flaunting. I'll never forget the first time I walked down the street in "Newtown" Chicago in 1970 holding my girlfriend's hand. I have nothing but respect for those who came before me so I could feel safe enough to risk it. We may have only been remotely safe in a blocks square area but today it's Boy's Town and considered to be a neighborhood.
My problem is with the overt eroticism that has become the THEME of most Gay PRIDE Parades recently. I welcome with open arms and will fight for the rights of every "BDSM folk, trans people, drag performers, political radicals, artsy types, punks, goths, femme men, butch women and polyamorists" on your list. I question why those of us who wear jeans and a T-shirt 364 days a year need take on those personas.
BTW some may say I could "pass" but I'm always amazed when some guy hits on me or a straight woman asks me if I'm married. I want to say "Don't you see the DYKE tattoo on my forehead?"
And I agree with liones. Keep talking kido, we'll listen.

[dsc]

33. well stated

I understand why people can get upset over some of the more flamboyent displays (and in my city we are much less flamboyent) but no matter how 'normal' we are, at the end of the day more than a few will hate us for just being us. We shouldn't throw some of us under the bus just to try to save the rest.

[Chovexani]

34. Honey you made me tear up a little

:hug: :loveya: :yourock:

Yes I'm pretty much tired of "we're just like you" being trotted out as the justification for queer rights by the Log Cabin types, and kinksters and radicals being shoved into the closet for political expediency. Do people not know that Stonewall was incited by pissed off trannies and drag queens?

No, I'm not "just like them". And I don't want to be, thanks.

[Chovexani]

35. With all due respect

Can we make it less a drag show and more a showcase of gay citizens?

Those drag queens ARE gay citizens. So are the dykes on bikes, the gym bunnies, the goths, Witches and Pagans. So are ladyboys, girlfags, genderqueers, leather daddies, swingers, polyamorists. We are all a part of this community, to the chagrin of many.

And I'm really sick and tired of being told I should stay home from the parade because people like you are ashamed of people like me. What fails to be understood is that you can do EVERYTHING "RIGHT" in straight people's eyes, you can have the nuclear family in lavender colors with the white picket fence and they will STILL fucking hate us and wish we were dead.

I like you, so I'm sorry if I'm coming off as flaming you unnecessarily but I'm not sure you get just how patently offensive that post was.

[readmoreoften]

36. An LGBT parade with no butch visibility is not a parade this femme wants to see.

My question is when do we stop with parades and with riots.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

46. me either. an lgbt parade w. no femme men is also one i dont want to see

the breaking of gender rules is what makes us special.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. i agree, this community was hated before gay pride parades went 'excessive'

[Touchdown]

40. She's not asking you to stay home.

She's asking people to leave their evening gowns, Harleys, leather, and all the self expressive club scene shit at home, and COME AS THE HUMANS THEY ARE. Your bikes, sequins, muscles, hairy chests, wigs or studded codpieces are not who you are.

[FreeState]

49. I disagree 100%

Your bikes, sequins, muscles, hairy chests, wigs or studded codpieces are not who you are.

The above, to many people is the expression of whom they are. Take that away and their identity as a queer person is diminished - the whole point of LGBT equality is evenhandedness for every legal expression of sexual orientation, not just those you may be comfortable with.

Can we have a family reunion but leave the kids at home? I dont think so.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. agreed. a lot of the trouble lisa and i get is because she is butch. if she grew her hair out and

stopped wearing mens clothes maybe the staring/yelling at us would decrease

but my gf would not be who she is under these circumstances.

gay pride is not just a right to fuck/love who we want, its also our right to be who we are.

[plantwomyn]

56. My idea of LGBT equality has nothing to do with

"every legal expression of sexual orientation"
It has to do with CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. I would prefer expressions of sexual orientation whether straight or gay be discreet. Humping one another on a float says NOTHING about equality. If doing so is the only way they can express who they are, well that's just SAD. I want people to bring their kids THATS MY POINT!

[Touchdown]

59. Motorcycles are your kids now?

You're not convincing me if you honestly expect me to buy the equivocation of black spandex or a Cher costume as important as real children.

Please tell me this isn't what you're saying and that it's a bad analogy.

[plantwomyn]

58. With all due respect

There is a difference between A Drag Queen and a Drag Show. I should know since I've been to many a show and been part of some shows.
NOWHERE have I said ANYONE should stay home. In fact, I'd like to see more of those on the sideline participate.
NOWHERE have I ever said I am or ever was ASHAMED of ANYONE. I feel no SHAME because of ANY of GLBT person, including you.

As a side note---
My partner and I moved into our home in N. Indiana and our neighbors introduced themselves right away. A good old boy and his Jehovah Witness wife live across the street. I was worried and thought right away "Here we go again."
9 years later they watch our house while we're away and bring cookies every time the come over for the dogs. I'm sure they've never known a queer face to face in their lives. But they are good people and they recognized we are too.
Assholes will be assholes but the majority of straight people would not deny us our rights once they'd meet us as people.

Flaming isn't a bad word in this forum Dawlin' :pals:

[Malikshah]

39. Suggestion: Go rent Flawless. Philip Seymour Hoffman and Robert DeNiro

Great movie about a Drag queen who helps a homophobic cop regain his speaking ability after an on-the-job shooting.

There's a telling scene where the drag queens are confronted by the Log Cabin Republicans who make very much the same case you are making.

Philip Seymour Hoffman's character responds quite eloquently (more than I can w/o the script in front of me)

Paraphrasing it...

He states-- We are different...we are. We are not embarrassed of you, but you are of us. We are not ashamed of you, but you are ashamed of us. We are not trying to hide you away, but you are trying to hide us away.

But there is one place where we are all similar.

We all get down our knees and suck c*(&.

So f*(( you and God Bless.

He said it better than I ever could.

The sentiment remains the same.

Remember who led Stonewall.

It wasn't the Six-Feed Under crowd.

It was the Priscilla and To Wong Foo crowd.

We're all in this together and unless we take pride in every last one us, we are all diminished.

[Touchdown]

41. That Stonewall Drag Queen urban legend is a nice story.

...but it isn't, and never has been completely true.

Sure, they were there in the streets, because the bar was emptied, but the ones fighting the cops were mostly not the drag queens that night. They were the ones who were excluded from Viet Nam, or went, depending on how butch they were. They would later morph into Brian Kenney gays (from QAF).

Emmet: on Brian rolling his eyes at a drag show poster "What kind of gay man are you?"
Brian: "The kind that likes hot guys!"

Don't give me the lecture on "taking pride in every last one of us". Most drag queens I know certainly don't. And Hoffman got it wrong. His dress or fashion sense isn't who he is. That is only his hobby.

[Malikshah]

44. Reality challenged?

Draq Queens to "Brian Kenney"s?

Obviously, one didn't watch the movie Flawless and pay attention.

He was transsexual. Oh well.



Still love you.

[Touchdown]

54. I saw it once. Preachy and self serving.

You need a heart.:hug:

The character's arguments and circumlocutions were evident that she felt the need for validation, and nobody really needs validation from anyone but their closest loved ones. The cop wasn't, but she had a thing for him.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. where is this version of what happened at stone wall?

i think you made it up to suit your own purpose.

[Touchdown]

57. Oh' ok, so it was ONLY drag queens there.

They were the only ones who stood up to the cops.

Drag queens were the ONLY ones who fought back.

Drag queens were the only ones who got fed up and did something about it.

Drag queens were the only ones who had the guts/balls to start a movement and NOBODY ELSE lifted a finger to support or help them.

Is that what you're saying? Because it's what the poster above said.

I bow before the great drag queen superiority! How will I EVER earn their forgiveness? Now, because they made it possible to fuck other guys without being thrown in jail, I must not only endure, but enjoy their lip syncing to the latest screaming bitch diva hit that's put out, but also have the humility and deference to their plight and bravery of putting on makeup and insisting on being the center of fucking attention at every god damn event that has the word GAY in it for eternity.

Ahem. sorry about that.
:rant:

Oh, here's one about TG...
http://www.independentgayforum.com/news/show/26644.html

Linked from Wikipedia

http://www.tobyjohnson.com/stonewall.html

Is it so hard for a mythology to to be perpetuated? Look at the re-writing of Reagan by the media...the ones with the microphones. Who holds the mikes/emcees at all gay pride events?

[BillSam]

51. In New York City the Gay Pride Parade

USED to be a MARCH. It's great that everyone gets together to celebrate, but we also still have a lot to PROTEST and sometimes I get the impression that that's been forgotten on that day. I've become a bit cynical about the "parade" because I know that many -- most? -- of the people "parading" go right back in the closet the next day. They'd accomplish more if they CAME OUT for 365 days a year.

Two quick clarifications. You can't ask drag queens to "come as they really are" when for many of them their drag identity IS who they are, even if they go to work out of drag. But I believe that point has already been made. Along those lines, there are leather men who wear suits and ties to work, but their true identity, they feel, is as leather men. We are not our occupations.

And, yes, drag queens were part of the Stonewall rebellion but they were hardly alone. And I've met many of the men and women who were pioneers in the post-Stonewall "modern-day" Gay Rights movement, and the vast majority were not drag queens. I'm not trying to minimize anyone's contribution, believe me, but for the sake of accuracy it should be noted that drag queens did not create Gay Pride on their lonesome. The Stonewall catered to a cross section of the community, I believe.

Speaking of which, I know that many gay men get tired of everyone thinking all gay men are transvestites or effeminate or whatnot (I admit I certainly do on occasion) -- the "bear" or "average guy" gay community is vastly under-represented in both gay and straight media -- but please don't take out your frustrations on our femme or drag queen brothers, most of whom are wonderful guys and our gay brothers. Ditto for leather kings and the like. We all may have different styles, but divided we fall ....

[Smarmie Doofus]

67. We are all a lot of things... seems to me.

>>>>Two quick clarifications. You can't ask drag queens to "come as they really are" when for many of them their drag identity IS who they are, even if they go to work out of drag. But I believe that point has already been made. Along those lines, there are leather men who wear suits and ties to work, but their true identity, they feel, is as leather men. We are not our occupations. >>>>

Including our occupations. That's very much to the point. The Parade... at least the NYC version ( which I'm guessing is pretty typical of GP parades around the US).... constitutes itself in such a way that it is easily caricatured by the media. The parade itself has become so predictable, so cliched as to be virtually unreportable by the MSM. There's no news coming out of it so the Times got by last year with a single pic ( of a drag queen, naturally)a two sentence caption and NO STORY AT ALL. That was the toality of their coverage of GP Day in NYC. The NY Daily News followed suit : pic of scantily leather-clad individual wielding some kind of baton, brief caption, no story.

Iconography can tell part of a story but in this case it communicates very little of the reality of GLBT life in and around NYC, far as I can see. Nonetheless, that's the sum of what non-GLBTdom learned from the GP parade in NYC last year.

The parade-meisters, having long since decided decided that communicating with the larger community is no longer their goal, are ok with this. The goal now seems to be maintaining a certain sort of stasis. Gay life in NYC is not so bad, so let's celebrate it. Commercial interests ( bars, restaurants, etc) kick in at this point.

That's too bad. It's short-sighted, inward looking and borderline narcissistic. Presented with an annual golden opportunity to change public misconceptions, the organizers prefer to embrace them and even to glory in them.

Most of us do not live in a ghetto, and would prefer to be accepted as GLBT by the non GLBT world. Educating outsiders about the *totality* of what we are is more likely to hasten that result than simply reinforcing the straight world's distorted preconceptions. Straights already know that some gays do drag and some like leather. They are less likely to be aware that a lot of us don't do either and in most aspects of life are very much like themselves. Which information is more likely to expedite attitude change?

Back to the NYC parade: even the *symbolism* is all wrong. Why have the parade assemble in Midtown and terminate in the street festival in the bowels of the far-West Village... the meat-packing district which on a Sunday afternoon ( for the benefit of non NYers) is completely abandoned by homos and heteros alike?

From whom are we hiding?

Wouldn't it make more sense from an 'educating the general public' standpoint to assemble in the Village and have the festival in midtown ? You know, where someone might actually *see* us? Have to *talk* to us? Have to *acknowledge* us?

If, of course, we are really interested in that.

[plantwomyn]

84. I wish I could K&R a reply.

"The parade-meisters, having long since decided decided that communicating with the larger community is no longer their goal, are ok with this. The goal now seems to be maintaining a certain sort of stasis. Gay life in NYC is not so bad, so let's celebrate it. Commercial interests ( bars, restaurants, etc) kick in at this point.

That's too bad. It's short-sighted, inward looking and borderline narcissistic. Presented with an annual golden opportunity to change public misconceptions, the organizers prefer to embrace them and even to glory in them.

Most of us do not live in a ghetto, and would prefer to be accepted as GLBT by the non GLBT world. Educating outsiders about the *totality* of what we are is more likely to hasten that result than simply reinforcing the straight world's distorted preconceptions. Straights already know that some gays do drag and some like leather. They are less likely to be aware that a lot of us don't do either and in most aspects of life are very much like themselves. Which information is more likely to expedite attitude change?"

You have said it better than I ever could.
Thank you.

[mitchtv]

52. Two cents here

I'd go along with banning total nudity, But I wouldn't put many other conditions. It's up to the contingents to make each ones' statement. Myself, I could do with fewer church groups, but that's me. The steering committee should make appropriate themes each year. I remember those big posters of Idi Amin and Anita Bryant, et al marching down Market St. The image will stay with me forever.

[plantwomyn]

53. I helped a Anita Bryant off of the street in SF.

She had on a wig so heavy she fell over backwards.:rofl:

[xchrom]

60. i could not disagree more.

i think the parade and it's evolution are doing great -- and it'll change again.

it has not always been the same parade year in and year out -- it's a living thing reflecting both the people and the time we are in.

when the epidemic was in full rage -- you couldn't go to a parade but it was an awful memoriam -- at least here in sf -- now those times are passing{not the epidemic, but feelings about it} and there is a return to joy.

not the same expressions of joy as in the past -- but new ones -- different ones -- the south asian contingent is bigger, the micronesia contingent is bigger, the latino contigent is bigger -- and hurrah! for the nudity and flirtation and sexiness. that's life! at it's best.

i'm not at all interested in making the hetero community happy with our parade -- that is our time to come together to celebrate, hoot holler and be whatever we want to be for one day -- ok three days -- but you get my point.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. i was hoping you woudl weigh in.

:loveya:

[xchrom]

62. hi Love!

:loveya:

[mitchtv]

64. Got my vote

[plantwomyn]

65. Yes, I get your point.

So I guess my question has been answered.

"and hurrah! for the nudity and flirtation and sexiness. that's life! at it's best."

About sums up many of the posts here that opine that the Gay Pride Parade is about the GLBT community reflecting their sexual orientation and "just be" out in the world. A mix of Mardi Gras, Carnival, and a bar scene from Queer as Folk.
I don't think that making the Parade into a more political event would make "the hetero community happy with our parade", I think it would scare the shit out of them. I'd like to point out in fact that one of the reasons why AIDS got noticed by the media was because of the "awful memoriam" that were the SF parades of the 80's. I carried pictures of my dead friends in those parades, and yes I danced and laughed and cried too.

Oh well just an idea.

[xchrom]

66. so what do you want exactly?

the parade is a living thing -- it changes through the years.

-- i'm confused.

you want something less sexy?

well let me point out to you that the hate people have for us is rooted precisely in how we fuck.

not because we love -- but because of how we fuck those whom we love -- or not love as the case may be.
not really different to the objections people had to interacial coupling.

that being said -- the parades are different all over the country and are reflections of the community thay are rooted in.
i.e. the parades in say durham are far, far more sedate than the parade in washington dc which are different again from the parades in l.a.

and btw -- i lost my partner at the height of the epidemic -- i missed parades because he was sick -- -- i was there, after he died -- to see his name on a quilt in Golden Gate after a parade and again at the city center downtown after another.

but i don't think those parades are more meaningful than the parades today -- they are different.

they are brilliant -- wonderful -- erotic -- funny -- they are plenty political -- they are even sober --
and there are families there --pretty much it's all there --

[plantwomyn]

68. I have replied to many posts on this thread.

If you are still confused I will try to clarify my position.
I disagree with your statement that "the hate people have for us is rooted precisely in how we fuck."
They hate the fact that WE FUCK AT ALL.
I feel there is a difference with "the objections people had to interacial coupling" and their hate for "how we fuck those whom we love". The difference I see has much to do with the fact that they have no real objection with interracial coupling, for THEY are part of that coupling. Their objection was with their marrying. THEY never refuse themselves access to carnal pleasure. But to marry "one of them" now THAT'S wrong. That is were the "down low" in our community is rooted, too.

I accept your interpretations of the parades then and now. I am simply asking if the parade can be a more positive voice in our attempt to share ourselves with the world.

It is unfortunate that the media doesn't pay much attention to everything else we do. I'm sure everyone can name times in their own communities where they have been a part of the solution. I can tell you there are charities in my town who know me and my family by name. Straight friends of my mother's who call on her gay "daughters" for help when they need it. Friends of my aunt's and uncle's who stop by for a beer when they're riding their Harleys through Indiana. Neighbors and co-workers who come to BBQ's and birthday parties and invite us to theirs. They bring their kids and dogs.
One by one everyone time we meet someone, we change their mind. We make it harder for them to hate us. We make it harder for them to deny we are people too. We make it harder for them to deny us our rights.
But I've been being me for along time. I know individually I have changed minds. I know my family has too. We are like the pebble in the pond causing rings flowing from the center into our community.
The world is more like an ocean. How can we positively effect the ocean of people we will never meet when the only time this ocean is effected by us is during that wonderful day in June when we come "out of the closets-into the streets"?

[xchrom]

69. uh -- the thing they objected to re: interacially marriage was the comingling of naughty bits.

and of course the out come of that comingling -- children -- to remind every one of the afore mentioned comingling.

and in it's time -- it was a huge issue that went on and on for years.

there is some notion or tone of superiority to this part of your post that i find very objectionable.
that your staid -- and admittedly immitative of the heteronormative environment has allowed them{straights} to see gay folk as normal or regular.

ok there's A LOT wrong with that.

that doesn't even have to do with being gay. -- just out and out different and people - the most of society being uncomfortable.

it's not the lgbtq's responsibility to make straights at ease or tolerant or accepting or anything else.
it's our responsibility to be ourselves.

we have a gay culture and history that -- though underground -- spans all of human history -- and it is magnificent.

and many, many of those people who made that history wouldn't come to a parade designed by you -- where would oscar wilde fit in -- or alice b toklas? how about annie sprinkles?

it's not our responsibility to behave in an xyz fashion -- we didn't do anything wrong -- it's our responsibility to be.

[plantwomyn]

70. Uh.

"that your staid -- and admittedly immitative of the heteronormative environment has allowed them{straights} to see gay folk as normal or regular" :wtf:
I find it objectionable that you would imply that I am the Dyke equivalent of a boring "Uncle Tom" hegemonic!

Nowhere in any of my posts have I said that anyone should be EXCLUDED or that we should to be be seen as "normal or regular" or that we have done anything wrong.

"we have a gay culture and history that -- though underground -- spans all of human history -- and it is magnificent."

"how about annie sprinkles?"
From her website, it doesnt appear to me that Annie Sprinkles has a problem going anywhere she fucking wants and I'd be insane to try and stop her!

Hardy part of a "underground" culture, Oscar Wilde and Alice B, Toklas were both integral members of the society of their time and place. I am well educated in gay culture and history and the people who influenced it. I endeavor to emulate them in my own small way. Through my actions and experience, I am part of gay culture and history. I know many feel history = old. That may make me a fuddy duddy to you.
Though I am not young, my hopes and dreams are far from outdated. And they have A LOT to do with being gay. I've taken on the "responsibility to be". The largest responsibility of which is to be OUT to my family and friends since I was 14, to work through the emotions and to build a wonderful loving FAMILY.
In the 70's the way I dress was considered "masculine" and many a time invoked a "Dyke!" or "Lessie!" catcall . Though I haven't changed my way of dress, I'm sure you would consider it staid, imitative and heteronormative.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. you can take as much umbrage as you want but your initial post

does create a divide between what you consider excess and what you consider normative and good.

[plantwomyn]

72. You may read as much as you want into it but

I asked a simple question 'Can we make it less a drag show and more a showcase of gay citizens?"
If I interpreted your posts as you do mine, I would think that unless I agree to rampage down the street in drag, humping my partner in carnal bliss to the beat of disco music, I would not be welcome at the parade. For those who wish to do so be my guest. I just may do so myself if my partner is willing.
I do take umbrage with your entire statement. Please explain to me where in my initial post you find that I "create a divide between what you consider excess and what you consider normative and good."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. because you are creating a false divide between what is gay citizens and drag shows or the parade is

all of that is us.

[plantwomyn]

74. Yes, I know.

less and more is a huge divide.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. less of people who are already only seen once a year in public

[queerart]

75. "I would think that unless I agree to rampage down the street in drag"

.
.
.

Maybe it is a question of being clear... and it seems to me that you have had more positions on this topic than a double jointed Porn Star.......


Everyone seems to understand your repetitious "drum beat" that you have a problem with the "Drag Queens"...... WE GET IT ALREADY!


So it begs the question: "Do You Also Have The Same Problem With The Drag Kings"?


So maybe as a matter of convenience (and to make your position crystal clear to everyone reading this thread)......


Maybe we can get you to (clearly, and simply) SPELL OUT YOUR POSITION ON GAY PRIDE......


NOW, "I think" you are saying that your problem with Gay Pride is that there are:


"Women That Are Trying To Look And Act Like Men".......


and....


"Men That Are Trying To Look And Act Like Women".......


..... and you don't like it.......


.....and that the "Women and Men" at the Parade are acting entirely too sexual for what would be considered "good taste"......


.....and you feel that this type of behavior should stop because it embarrasses you in front of your family, and you don't like to see this on the evening news.......


Is that what you are trying to say?..... if not, please spare us the personal history of your Gay Rights Gamesmanship, and clearly tell everyone what the Hell you are talking about.......


As most people reading your posts are scratching their heads and saying..... "HUH"?!?!?!

[plantwomyn]

83. Where are all the statements you post within quotation marks coming from?

And where did I say IN MY POST that I had a "problem" with the Gay Pride Parade?

Though you have not made any attempt to answer my question I will answer yours in as "crystal clear" a way as I can.

To your first:
I don't have a "problem" with "Drag" period.

To your second:
NO. I strongly disagree with your translation of my post.

"if not, please spare us the personal history of your Gay Rights Gamesmanship"
Use your ignore button if you wish to be spared.

:puke:

[queerart]

87. Where Are All The Statements

Post # 3

"and the boys from our bar got OUT OF HAND. Picture those long foam pool toys and use your imagination. I would have walked away if my mom wasn't on the float with a broken leg."



(type of behavior should stop because it embarrasses you in front of your family, and you don't like to see this on the evening news.......)




Post # 20

I marched for civil rights in the 60's. The churches and activists of all colors marched side by side. Where are they for us? It's the same old story. White women fought for the 15th Amendment and heard crickets from black men when they were asked to support women's suffrage.
Gay people marched in EVERY civil rights march and now the we wish the crickets could be heard but instead, the black churches have turned their back on us and in many cases are our worst enemy. Hell NOW and the DNC can't even be counted on to stand with us. We need to hold them accountable for their indifference!
As a woman I expect there to be double standards. Being bi-racial , I've been called "chink" and had to fight every other nationality and race you can name. I have experience discrimination first hand, sexism, racism and homophobia. If their is anyone who doesn't "buy into the big lie" isn't me. But I'm not the one who makes the rules.



(the personal history of your Gay Rights Gamesmanship)




Post # 22

If we did that how do we teach the young ones?

This is how the Chicago and SF Parades used to be. We protested at the Parade against Anita Bryant, Ronald Raygun, and filled the streets to demand AIDS research and treatment. ACT UP!
The Media has very little else to cover but the stereotypes. To give them credit, the news coverage in Chicago was neutral. They showed the Veterans and the naked boys, the Police float and the bible thumpers.

(And with the "naked boys" comment, you forgot the "girls" with their own asses hanging out... and do you really want to called a "girl"? The men you are speaking of are not prepubescent)



They don't let anyone get away with "lessie" or "faggot" jokes or comments without saying Hey, my daughter is gay and I don't appreciate that.


(And to help you out... if you are going to claim it.... the word is Lezzie, (not Lessie)... here is a link for you to the Urban Dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lezzie

Lessie happens to be a name for a baby: http://www.thenamemachine.com/baby-names-girls/Lessie.html)



Post # 27

NO NO NO me likes the Dykes on Bikes!

So if anyone is half clothed... it's OK if they are women, correct?



It's easier for me I admit, way past the time when I did too many things I didn't want my momma to know about.

(type of behavior should stop because it embarrasses you in front of your family)


The Parades have become about EXCESS not PRIDE.

(who's excess are you referring to?)


the way things are today they see Drag Queens on TV every day. And at the Parade some of us should look in the mirror and ask ourselves if our kid, mom, brother or sister would be embarrassed. Hell if you're going to do Drag look good GIRL! I have been embarrassed by my friends and not necessarily by how they looked but by their actions. I know it isn't fair. No one person wants to be held responsible for how the world sees their community. I don't represent all Dykes and I'm positive I have done things in the past to embarrass my sisters.
I'm just saying we can do better. Can't we?

(again you being embarrassed should your family see it)



Post # 32

I was a radical feminism lesbian anarchism on the streets of Chicago in the late 60's. I've marched in at least 15 Parades in IL, IN, and CA.

(more political gamesmanship history... we all get it already, your an involved Dyke)


My problem is with the overt eroticism that has become the THEME of most Gay PRIDE Parades recently. I welcome with open arms and will fight for the rights of every "BDSM folk, trans people, drag performers, political radicals, artsy types, punks, goths, femme men, butch women and polyamorists" on your list. I question why those of us who wear jeans and a T-shirt 364 days a year need take on those personas.

(so you know for a fact that all Gay Pride Parades have eroticism for their theme? You must travel a Hell of allot! To a normal person... it seems a little impossible for you to be at all the Gay Prides in the country... So would you say that you are using "very broad brush statements"?)



Post # 56

I would prefer expressions of sexual orientation whether straight or gay be discreet. Humping one another on a float says NOTHING about equality. If doing so is the only way they can express who they are, well that's just SAD. I want people to bring their kids THATS MY POINT!

(Since you mentioned "boys getting out of hand" on a float in post # 3 (I assume) that you are not talking about the Dykes On Bikes, correct?)



Post # 58

There is a difference between A Drag Queen and a Drag Show. I should know since I've been to many a show and been part of some shows.

(and there is no difference between a Drag King, and a Drag Show... but again, you have no problem mentioning the men.. but the women are again absent in your statements)



Post # 72

I asked a simple question 'Can we make it less a drag show and more a showcase of gay citizens?"


(we get it already... you have a problem with Drag Queens... and again, it begs the question.... Do you also have this same problem with Drag Kings.... and with yourself, as you admitted in a earlier post that you have done Drag "post # 58")





..........And you can use the little puke icon all you want to Sister... as while reading your posts, one's mind can only wander to a movie from the 70's (you should be able to relate to that, right)....


"Willie Wonka And The Chocolate Factory"... with the telling scene where the Little Girl chides a boy in the group:



She scolds: Spitting Is A Bad Habit..... All The While Having A Finger Planted Firmly Up Her Nose


Guess where your finger is Sister?



That's Where I Got All The Statements......................

What it comes down to.... your post are full of:

"Men Bad".... "Women Good"

"Men Wild"..... "Women Well Behaved"

"Men Focused On Sex".... "Women Focused On Flag & Country"

and one could go on, and, on, and on with your comparisons of "boys".... and "women"

and when anyone has challenged your position on any point you have made...... "triangulation" is the order of the day.....

What your posts appear to say is that you have an intense dislike of men, and that you are seeking a "whipping boy" for your shitty time at Gay Parade.....

Are you really the type of a person that would keep hitting themselves in the head with a hammer, then bitch about how bad it hurts......

Christ, if Gay Parade is so crappy... stay home already....

Oh, and before I forget..... Use your ignore button if you wish to be spared.:rofl:

[plantwomyn]

89. Where are all the statements you post within quotation marks coming from?

The operative words in this question that you ignored are "statements you post"

"Women That Are Trying To Look And Act Like Men".......
and....
"Men That Are Trying To Look And Act Like Women".......
"drum beat"
"good taste"
And now let's add
"Men Bad".... "Women Good"

"Men Wild"..... "Women Well Behaved"

"Men Focused On Sex".... "Women Focused On Flag & Country"
Whom are you quoting?
Gay Rights Gamesmanship
Please give me a "crystal clear" definition for the above. Exactly how did I use "The art or practice of using tactical maneuvers to further one's aims or better one's position" in Post # 20. Please be "crystal clear" with your explaination.

Post # 72
I asked a simple question 'Can we make it less a drag show and more a showcase of gay citizens?"
Post # 1 "Can we make it less a drag show and more a showcase of gay citizens?"
You may get it but you haven't answered the fucking question. Unless "Are you really the type of a person that would keep hitting themselves in the head with a hammer, then bitch about how bad it hurts......Christ, if Gay Parade is so crappy... stay home already.... Oh, and before I forget..... Use your ignore button if you wish to be spared.:rofl:" is your answer.

(type of behavior should stop because it embarrasses you in front of your family, and you don't like to see this on the evening news.......)
I said I was embarrassed. I said my mom was on the float with a broken leg. I did not say anything embarrassed me BECAUSE it
embarrasses me in front of my family!
Here are some pictures of the DRAG QUEENS on the floats that I was a monitor , the first close up is of my favorite Lotta Balls. My mother was seated on this float, she had a cast on.

Actually, I said I participated in a show. I was the escort for Dawn, the lovely lady pictured here with her hands on her hips. ASSUME MUCH?



Now, if asked, I would have monitored this float gladly.

Though I think mypartner of 10 years would have objected. She is the little dyke in the front row in the right.


Guess where your finger is Sister?
Why would YOU call ME Sister? Especially with a capital S. It is odvious you have no affinity for me or for anything I post.
"And you can use the little puke icon all you want to Sister" What the fuck is your main malfunction?

[queerart]

91. What the fuck is your main malfunction?

What the fuck is your main malfunction?



Awwwww....... That was just like a Dyke Haiku, Hun... and I also see that you have a sense of humor!


I noticed when someone else didn't agree with you (UH OHHHHH!)... you invented a lil' nick name for him...... post # 82... Princess Spice, correct?


So I'll gladly point out that we have a "Lessie Comedian" in our midst.... Our very own DU version of Ellen.... I tell you what, in keeping with the fun house antics we'll give you the lil' nickname of "Bootjack Bob".........


Ain't that fun?


Oh Wait, that is too butch, and by your own standard "You Can Pass" per post # 32 ..... (and there is no reason to try to explain to you how patently offensive it is of you to chime in with "BTW some may say I could "pass" " ... as you would never get it)


I wonder what would happen if you stood up in a Lesbian Bar and announced to the crowd "that you could pass"... what do you think they would say to you?


My little sister who is Dyke (and not some woman I found at Pride to protect as per post #3, but my sibling) would laugh in your face..... as there seems to be way too little humility in this thread.....


But since you can pass.... we better call you "Petunia" instead......


What it boils down to is that you are a "Man Hater", and divisive to the highest degree... so you can save all your Pontificating Bullshit about how Gay Pride isn't what it should be by your standards.....


... and you especially hate men that stand up to you.... which you know what? That's VERY COOL with me that you hate guys... as I have a couple friends that hate smart assed, know it all Dykes....


So being that you're a man hater... you need to save all that "can't we just come together, and do something positive for the community crap".... as you want Pride to mirror your own agenda.. ..Plain and Simple...



So Sister, you asked........ What the fuck is my main malfunction?



Why Don't You Look Up My Ass, And Tell Me If My Hat's On Straight..........



No need to put me on ignore Kitten.... as I won't waste anymore time on you.........

[plantwomyn]

98. I didn't "invented a lil' nick name for him"

Comment "la lioness says i'm Princess Spice. so there."
"Kitten-Man Hater-Petunia-Lessie Comedian-Bootjack Bob"
Am I to assume that you are a WOMAN HATER and "and divisive to the highest degree" because you insult me by giving me these lil' nick names?
I do not. I do assume that "you want Pride to mirror your own agenda.. ..Plain and Simple" and nothing ANYONE HERE has said is important to you. I notice that you have not replied or attacked the posts by nothingtoofear, spoiledrotten, PaulHo or BillSam. All male. hmmmmm.

Guess you missed this post in your trolling.
"In the 70's the way I dress was considered "masculine" and many a time invoked a "Dyke!" or "Lessie!" catcall. Though I haven't changed my way of dress, I'm sure you would consider it staid, imitative and heteronormative."
If that post is too difficult for you let ME translate, I've dressed "BUTCH" since I was 14 years old. Today, no one notices. I have not changed, society has.

"not some woman I found at Pride to protect as per post #3".
I know you saw post # 87. Now, as much as I love them few of them "could pass" as "some woman I found at Pride". THEY ARE MEN. They make part of their living doing Drag Shows. Drag Queens are men too. You seem to disagree, since you call me a "MAN HATER". There were other MEN on the float who were not in Drag. They are GAY MEN. They ASKED my partner and I to monitor the float from OUR bar and we took the responsiblity seriously. We here in N.Indiana do not have a "Lesbian Bar". We have Gay Bars. The boyz at our bar "would laugh in your face" for calling me a "MAN HATER" and then they would buy you a drink.

"and there is no reason to try to explain to you how patently offensive it is of you to chime in" that "What it boils down to is that you are a "Man Hater", and divisive to the highest degree" "as you would never get it" "as there seems to be way too little humility in this thread"

[xchrom]

80. ok -- you just ''outed'' yourself -- you don't know your lgbtq history.

neither alice nor oscar EVER had an easy time in society.

that you think so speaks volumes.

annie sprinkles -- who is adorable -- very definitely would have a hard time playing in peoria -- that's what makes her relevant! -- did you miss that?

and yes -- you are making a comparison to the way you live -- the way you are at Pride -- and the certain Others are -- and saying you are and would do it better. that you and the Way you are is a better ambassador for straights.

but again -- we did nothing wrong to begin with -- we don't have to appease them -- to get our selves right with them -- it is not now -- nor will it ever be our responsibility to do that.

it is only our responsibility to live our lives as we see fit -- each of us. -- that is a miracle -- a wonderful and beautiful miracle.

you sound like every straight person who has asked me if i really have to be so ''effusive''.

[plantwomyn]

82. Okay. You are THE expert on GLBT history Princess Spice.

You assume that my statement that "Oscar Wilde and Alice B, Toklas were both integral members of the society of their time and place" means that they "had an easy time in society". I strongly disagree with your translation.
While going to jail cannot be seen as an "easy time in society" Oscar Wilde's early acclaim from his college years until his arrest, made him a highly sought after dinner guest in parlors all over the WORLD. He lectured in the U.S. and Europe. He meet, knew, worked and played with the best of the best in "fine society", literature and theater. His accomplishment and acclaim, IMHO qualified him as one of the "integral members of the society of" his "time and place".

Alice B. Toklas and Gertrude Stein . Gertrude Stein . Gertrude Stein , were spotlighted in a 1995 documentary, Paris is a Woman by Greta Schiller. Check it out. Great scenes of Paris between the wars and of Alice and Gertrude. It depicts the streets and homes that a group of literary giants lived and worked on, the book stores they owned and the writers they worked with and supported. It talks about Ernest Hemingway, Ezra Pound, Pablo Picasso, James Joyce and F. Scott Fitzgerald, just to name a few, "being integral members of the society of their time and place" and of these and other women, having a great influence on them.

If you insist on denying Alice, Oscar of Gertrude their props so be it.
Now that I "outed" myself, I suppose I shall bow to your superior knowledge of our history. Though if I may, with your permission, I shall continue my education in an endeavor to reach your level of knowledge and understanding.

[xchrom]

85. it's a good thing you do bow to my superior knowledge --

because i have it right.

wilde's life in society was never easy -- that's if you've read anything by wilde describing his time before jail.

and the same for stein and toklas -- yes -- they could have dinner with hemmingway? -- but outside of their salon -- life would have been as deadly as it was fro every lgbtq person -- however -- they were ''advantaged'' enough to carve out a space in a hostile universe.

but make no mistake -- these were the drag queens and extreme elments that you bemoan and bewail in your OP.

you estimation of toklas and wilde is shallow -- and your estimation of Pride is the same.

[plantwomyn]

90. Why do you insist on translating my post to fit your interpretation?

Is the phrase "integral members of the society of their time and place" too difficult for you?
I note that you completely ignore most of what I said. You go from "ever easy" to "never easy" in society. I disagree with both.
Enlighten me. I have only read "The Complete Works of Oscar Wilde" by Blitz Editions <1990> 3 times and a couple of on line biographies. Give me links to Wilde's pre-jail writings I am unaware of and I will continue my endeavor.
"they were ''advantaged'' enough to carve out a space in a hostile universe" Really? Please explain to me how this differs from my phrase "their time and place".
I yield to your expertise, but please help me future my endeavor . What were these advantages you speak of?
"extreme elments" huh? Were in my posts is that {correctly spelled } crap posted?

[xchrom]

93. and where are your links exactly describing this

made up version of a wilde and toklas who ''fit in''?

society was dangerous and difficult even for luminaries{if they were gay} of that time.

they had to always live with the fear of imprisonment, ruin and worse.

of course you know that -- you just wanna make shit up to suit your fairy tale.

[Ayesha]

77. I mostly agree with you

I enjoy going to Pride, but I really don't connect with the more extreme elements either. I think the underlying issue is that LGBT people are as diverse as heterosexuals - we really don't have much inherently in common aside from our sexual orientation. I have far more in common with my best friends, a hetero couple, than I do with a polyamorous leather daddy who wears chaps and carries a whip at Pride. I fully support civil rights for persons fitting that description, but they're not people I particularly want to be associated with or be friends with. There is no "gay lifestyle", LGBT people have differing lifestyles. I happen to not really care for some of them..that's my personal view and my Midwestern upbringing. I don't like seeing people make out in public, no matter WHO they're making out with, let alone nudity, fetish wear, etc. That stuff belongs at home or in private clubs. You don't see heteros walking around like that - and the few who do are seen as weird by the general population too.

The problem is that because LGBT people are an oppressed minority, the actions of a few people reflect on all of us. Ignorant heterosexuals think that drag queens and leather daddies are typical of the LGBT population, but they are not. Jane and Mary Smith or Bob and Steve Jones in their jeans and t-shirts, living in the suburbs with a couple of cats and an adopted kid, are far more common. It pisses me off that us "regular" gay folks get lumped in with the others - it makes me most pissed at the straight people who do it, but I can't help but blame the extreme people a bit too. Keep your clothes on, don't have sex or beat each other up for sexual kicks in public, and wear something that reflects positively on your community. That is all I ask.

[queerart]

78. a polyamorous leather daddy who wears chaps and carries a whip at Pride

.
.
.

Indeed..... if only those Gay men would act "normal" the whole World would be better....


I see that you failed to mention "Women" in your "broad brush statement"...... so I thought I would help you out....


I did a quick search on Google images for "Dykes on Bikes" for Gay Pride, and thought I would share them with everyone.....


... and should you wonder.... No, the woman on the end is not trying to remove a Blueberry stain off of her friends breast.......


If only Gay men were as "regular" as these women...... Ain't Hypocrisy Grand.........

[xchrom]

79. brilliant!!! -- and i LOVE them!

and part of the reason why the many thousands of us GO to Pride.

:applause:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

95. if it makes you feel better i am a dyke and i love drag queens and femme boys and

other gender rebels.

[queerart]

112. Thanks....

:pals:

[insleeforprez]

88. Amen

I agree with you. If it's inappropriate for a man and a woman to be doing something, it should be equally inappropriate for a man and a man or a woman and a woman to be doing it. That's what EQUALITY means.

[Zuiderelle]

97. Tell them that at the next Mardi Gras.

Or any locale where heterosexuals embarrass themselves. Why do we hold OUR brothers and sisters up to a higher (and really impossible) standard than we hold anyone else? Equality is when everyone, no matter how they dress or act or speak as long as they are not hurting anyone, has the same rights.

What you are describing as equality is actually PROPRIETY, and like morality, that has a very wide definition.

[EmilyAnne]

81. I am the daughter of a very right wing, fundamentalist preacher. I grew up surrounded by so much

bigotry, homophobia, sexism, you name it. Did my parents ever see a Gay Pride float? Did they ever actually see a drag queen or a parade of proud, biker lesbians? Hell, no. I don't think they have ever seen two men or women holding hands!

I'll never forget watching my mother go into some weird bit of gagging hysterics at the mere sight of Ellen Degeneres on her daytime program. "She's disgusting. She's a les...."-she couldn't even say the word "lesbian". When my favorite uncle in the world came out of the closet, he was disowned by my family. My dear uncle wasn't wearing assless chaps when he did it, but he may as well have stripped down to a leather thong! It was all the same to my parents.

What's my point? The people who hate the GLBT community will find any reason to hate them, fear them, think they're evil, etc. I say, screw them. Have your time to celebrate sexual freedom and whatever that means to you. Your adults! Straight people have their Mardi Gras, after all.

I'm not trying to diss your sentiment, plantwomyn. I think there should be a national day of remembrance for people like Matthew Shepherd, all the GLBT teens who commit suicide and all the victims of hate crimes. It could be planned as a more somber event like you described.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

94. exactly. people have hated us way before pride. pride is the day we take back the streets

we queer it up. its the day the streets cannot scare us because there are just so many of us out.

taking the queer away from pride is ignorant

[Smarmie Doofus]

86. Interesting Wikipedia acct. of transformation of political demos...

...marking Stonewall riots into apolitical or at best, politically incoherent "celebrations" of today:


>>>>In the 1980s there was a major cultural shift in the Stonewall Riot commemorations. The previous loosely organized, bottom-up marches and parades were taken over by more organised and less radical elements of the gay community. The marches began dropping "Liberation" and "Freedom" from their names under pressure from more conservative members of the community, replacing them with the philosophy of "Gay Pride" (in the more liberal city of San Francisco, the name of the gay parade and celebration was not changed from Gay Freedom Day Parade to Gay Pride Day Parade until 1994). The Greek lambda symbol and the pink triangle which had been revolutionary symbols of the Gay Liberation Movement were tidied up and incorporated into the Gay Pride, or Pride, movement, providing some symbolic continuity with its more radical beginnings.>>>>

[xchrom]

92. yes -- but those can and are modified.

as one who has been in both versions -- the gay ''community'' barely existed as we know it now -- the castro was in a process of becoming -- new york's greewich village and west side the same -- gay meccas developed along side teh Freedom then Pride.

the numbers grew and they became a peoples parade.

something that the OP apparently objects to -- because so many men are dressed in ''drag'' and behaving badly.

[Zuiderelle]

96. This is such a depressing thread.

When we don't even include our own, no matter how small or large that minority among us, we have no hope of winning equality.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

99. yup

[plantwomyn]

100. And I’m sorry that it became so depressing.

It didn’t start out that way and until about the middle it was an interesting discussion. I suppose I could have let the attacks pass and I will take responsibility for digressing into a debate about what is-is. I posted to get a discussion going in our group about how we can better “tell our story” like Judy Shepard implored us to do in her lecture. A few here translated my post as anti-gay, anti-men, anti- parade, or just plain ole ANTI.
The old saying “We are our own worst enemy” comes to mind. I hope it isn’t so.

[Zuiderelle]

101. I'm afraid that it did start out depressing.

I did not interpret your post as anti-gay or anti-anything. I interpreted it as non-inclusive and judgmental.

I am pretty "regular" by most standards and most people don't know I'm gay, unless they know me, but I wouldn't dare to dictate how others dress themselves or express themselves as long as they aren't hurting anyone. Why should ANYONE have to live life in a way different than what is comfortable simply because they are not equal citizens and need to EARN that right? Why do we have to EARN a right that we should be born with, to be equal under the law as citizens of this country?

No way am I going to ask anyone to conform to MY standards of propriety.

I think we are our worst enemy, in the sense that some of us apparently don't feel that all of us belong.

[Smarmie Doofus]

113. It's a good thread. The gist of the OP was valid, imo.

>>>Maybe if we marched as ourselves. Not Drag queens or kings, but as their cable guy, teachers, police officers, nurses and students. No more floats. Right down on the street, in their faces. Nice and slow and looking them in the eye. >>>

The difficulty is the inference that some are drawing that some categories ( drag queens and kings, for instance) are less worthy of legal rights and protections than others. This is the electrified 'third rail' of GLBT politics.

Not your contention at all, if I read you correctly.

Getting people to agree on how to do Gay Pride is a bit like the event itself: like trying to herd cats. To the extent that your saying that we do a piss-poor job of honing our message... and the showcasing of a myriad of ancillary, tangential, and sometimes completely unrelated issues and interests makes for a poorly delivered central message, I absolutely agree with you.

You've identified a *problem*. The parade as currently concieved is not an effective communication tool. Problem 'identifiers' are often unfairly held in low repute. But there's nothing to be sorry for... far as I can see.
( I kind of got lost in the contumacious back and forth that followed your OP so pardon me if I misstate your position.)

[Ayesha]

102. I think this thread is asking

how do we define "our own". Is sexual orientation towards the same sex enough? Is the GLBT struggle about whom we partner with for life in the same manner as an "average" heterosexual partnership, or is it about sex practices/acts? Are we seeking acceptance for fetish-oriented subcultures, and where do we want them to fit into mainstream society? We're all answering those questions differently, and therein lies the source of the arguments on this thread.

For example, my answer:

I am a lesbian and see myself as allied with those persons, whether L, G, B, or T, who seek to live in mainstream society. Persons who need the protection of the law to be able to work, go to school, be safe from violence, and have protections for their families. Primarily these persons would be in or seeking lifelong monogamous partnerships. I don't see fetishes, public S&M, or public sex as being connected to our struggle. I think they should be kept where heterosexuals (usually) keep them, in private. Homosexuality is not about the sex acts, it is about relationships and public acknowledgment and acceptance of them. I know that the heterosexual couple that lives across the street from me is married. I even know for sure they've had sex, because they have a son (and even if they didn't, I'd assume they had.) But I don't think about that when I see them out mowing the lawn. And I don't want to see it, that is for sure, and neither would you if you saw them. Marriage is a family, social, and societal bond as much if not more than it is a sexual one. Just as I don't want to see my neighbor and his wife getting it on, most people don't want to see LGBT people doing it. Holding hands, brief kissing, what is acceptable for heterosexuals in public should be our right too. But if what we really want is equality, displaying sex practices (and not even ones that most LGBT folks engage in) is not the way to go about it. That is asking for MORE rights than heteros, something homophobes often accuse us of doing. If we want equality we need to behave in a way that shows we deserve it...and that means telling a wayward few in our community to keep it clean. Would you really want your mom to see you (un)dressed like that? (or if your mom's a 'phobe, the PFLAG contingent of the parade?) If not, tone it down, because lots of moms and dads are going to see you on TV, and when their kid comes out to them, do you want them to imagine him or her in assless chaps? Or do you want them to remember you marching in a polo and khakis with the Gay Lawyers group, or in your white coat with the Lesbian Doctors? Your decision may determine whether a teenager's parents flip out and send him/her to True Directions, or realize that s/he is still the same person and isn't going to run out and buy a 3 foot tall Cher wig. That s/he will be able to have a job and a normal life, though it won't always be easy, and guess what...they don't have to give up on the dream of being grandparents either. With all that at stake, is it really that hard to leave the whips and chains at home?

[Zuiderelle]

103. We need to behave properly to DESERVE equality?

Really? We need to deserve equality? Surely you don't really mean that.

Of course what is acceptable among heterosexuals should be the same with homosexuals. You just add noise to the issue by claiming that there is anything weirder about us than there is about heterosexuals. I don't identify with a lot of people, straight and gay, I don't think they represent me, but they aren't supposed to.

It's depressing that some of us don't understand that we don't all have to be the same. You can't force other people to behave the way you want, so why waste the time and add to the ammunition from those who already hate us? Is this just a fantasy, a wish, about how you want things to be? Well, I want equality and I don't want anyone telling me how to act. That would be nice.

[Ayesha]

104. Of course we deserve it

but a few people make it a lot harder for the rest of us to get it, that is what I meant. Like it or not, each of us reflects on all of us.

Here is an example from my own life. I grew up in a small town and really the only lesbian I knew was the high school vice principal. She was a mean, horrible woman, who looked for excuses to get kids in trouble. She even tried to cause problems for me, a well-behaved A student, but failed because my mom verbally kicked her ass. All the students hated her and a lot of the staff did too. People made a lot of comments about her being a man-hating dyke etc. behind her back. I had inklings that I was attracted to women, but the only role model I had for what a lesbian was like was the vice principal. I thought, if THAT's what it means to be a lesbian, I can't possibly be one! I didn't want to cut off all my hair and start being a jerk to everyone. That woman was a major factor that kept me from understanding and accepting myself in high school. That was 12 years ago and I still hate her for it. And I wasn't the only one affected...how many kids both straight and gay formed a negative opinion of lesbians because of her? How many STILL hold those views because they never left Indiana and got to know other kind, caring lesbians? We each have the power to affect how our community is viewed, and that very much includes people who participate in Pride.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

106. so you think if every glbt person was perfect, we would have our rights?

because i think that is a laughable notion.

[Zuiderelle]

109. So what if a few people make it harder for you, as you perceive it?

What good does it do to try to force someone to live a way that isn't the way they want to live, when we would do better using our energy to fight those who actually hate us and will do anything to keep us as second-class citizens. They pretend that they are most threatened by those flamboyant ones among us, when they are really just disgusted by all of us. They would be no less bigoted if only "normal" homosexuals were visible/existent. We should be just as we are.

You just can't tell others how to be, unless it applies to everyone. So the same standards that apply to your idyllic pride parades would apply to Mardi Gras.

I'm sorry for your experience as a child. You shouldn't let one person dictate how you feel about eveeryone. Negative impressions are made by everyone, straight and gay. I have plenty of straight examples for you from my childhood. Male and Female. It didn't make me gay, and it didn't keep me from being gay. What kept me from knowing I was gay in high school was the complete lack of any gay people anywhere, in life or in the media, except for the obvious exceptions of Liberace, Elton John (not out at the time though), some comedians, but no representatives of anything mainstream.

Now we have some exposure, and it's not just the flamboyant among us. It's Ellen Degeneres and Rosie O'Donnell and Melisa Etheridge and many others who are just living their lives openly. That's what we should want our brothers and sisters to do. Just live openly, as any heterosexual would.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

110. not to mention if we didnt have negative preconceived notions of evil lesbians and gays already

one negative experience would not make a difference.

i had several mean teaches who were heterosexuals but because heteros dont have steretype problems i hated those specific teachers, not the entire subgroup.

we have a right to exist as individuals too and not be on constant alert as to how we reflect on our community.

[Zuiderelle]

111. "We have a right to exist and not be on constant alert as to how we reflect on our community."

:thumbsup:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

105. so because someone isnt mainstream they shouldnt march with us or have basic civil rights?

you dont like queerer than normal queers as your friends, i get that. however this isnt about friendship this is about basic civil rights, and i dont think you are more deserving of it than anyone else.

[Ayesha]

107. Basic civil rights

What civil rights are the people I don't personally like in need of that I didn't outline my support for above? IMO people in fetish wear at Pride are not dressing that way to demand civil rights...they're doing it for sexual kicks. And I'm just saying, do that at home. I have friends, a couple, he's FtM and they like a bit of BDSM. They both have piercings and colorful hair. But they dress the same at Pride as they do any other day, and their concerns are about rights for them as a couple, as they both have health problems, and protecting her son who gets tormented at school because he came out as bi. They're a family and deserve the same rights as any other family.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

108. wear do you draw a line in fetish gear? a lot of my regular clubbing wear

qualifies as fetish gear. should we disallow corsets? how about pleather pants?

who are you willing to cut out because you dont like their clothing?