The "Gay Community:" is not a monolithic group

[roughsatori]

We Gays are not all the same. Using the term "Gay Community" leads to heterosexual people thinking (and the MSM promoting) that all GLBT people think, act, dress, and talk alike. We don't.

Some heterosexuals laugh at us--that all gays own Cher, and Barbara Streisand Cd's, and watch "Will and Grace." I do not. Yet, some gay people do. But some GLBT people find joy in Cher, Babs, and "Will & Grace.

Shit, my heterosexual Christian Sister-in-law loves Cher, Streisand, and "Will and Grace." She still can't believe that I, as a gay man, can not tolerate those Cd's or, even worse, that odious TV show: "Will and Grace."

Imagine, reading a serious post where a DUer offhandedly wonders why "All straight people love war, poverty, and have children that they refuse to take care of." The absurdity would be obvious and the post deleted.




I posted for the first time in the GLBT forum yesterday. I wrote this today in response to another heterosexual person stereotyping GLBT people. I hope I have not offended you as that was not my intention. But as my Mom says: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

I AM SOMEHOW LESS INTERESTED IN THE WEIGHT AND CONVOLUTIONS OF EINSTEIN'S BRAIN THAN IN THE NEAR CERTAINTY THAT PEOPLE OF EQUAL TALENT HAVE LIVED AND DIED IN COTTON FIELDS AND SWEATSHOPS

[meegbear]

1. Good post ...

as a cigar smoking, JD drinking, rock n roll bear, I know exactly what you're talking about.

[zonmoy]

2. same with me.

I happen to be a bear that one just looking at him would probably figure was a straight blue collar worker. my tastes in music are mostly heavy metal, punk rock favoring hardcore and straight edge, and a bit of hip hop and rap. most gay culture other than the bear and leather type scenes don't interest me at all. most people at least until they get to know me would have a lot of misconceptions about me.

[roughsatori]

9. that reminds me of an incident

A male, "Mike," and I had a date to meet in the city at 8th St. We were seriously involved. I made it to 8th and saw "Mike" from across the street. It was spring.

A car with a driver and 3 passengers (all young males) pulled up to "Mike" with the windows down. The driver from the car into "Mike's" face; then shouted "FUCKING FAGGOT." I ran to the car, punched the driver in the face; then began pulling him out the driver's window as I shouted: "I am going to end your life, motherfucker." His nose was bleeding, he yelled for his friends to help. I told them that I was a "crazy fucker" who would "love doing time" for "killing you all." A guy in the back yelled: "This fucker is nuts! Take off." They burned rubber.

I thought it was hysterical amd could not stop laughing. And the fact that I'm a member of a Buddhist Sangha added to my ironic delight.

I felt so proud for protecting "Mike." But after they drove away he told me: "I don't approve of violence and don't think I can be with a man who thinks violence is ever a tool to use." I laugh now because "Mike" was Catholic...and we all remember the violence of the Inquisition, etc.

I really am a gentle man, a bookworm, if I am left alone. I know this shows me to be a "bad" guy; but I make no claim to perfection.

Sorry for the too long memory and thanks! Rough Satori

[mitchtv]

27. Great story reminds me of ex luv on 18th and Castro

On a Saturday night, Beat the shit out of a strate boy picking on queens in front of god and everyone all the while asking him " how does it feel to get beat up by a "faggot"? A well deserved round of appause was obtained.

[roughsatori]

4. My NA sponsor, after I gave up stealing and shooting dope

used to say:

"Joseph, you need to take homosexual lessons."

I miss him.

[meegbear]

5. LOL!

I'll have to check my community college and see if they have any courses in it.

[roughsatori]

7. It is bizarre how we classify "gay" & "straight."in our fantasies

I am a rock fiend. For some idiotic reason many people think that means: heterosexual male.

[RedXIII]

11. me too,

because i'm a Rock and Roll bear who likes hair metal and psychedelic rock,and i have to often correct people's heterosexist assumptions.

[BOSSHOG]

3. I'm a straight male, veteran, beer drinking son of a gun

but I'd like to think I'm an honorary member of the gay community. If ya'll can't join the military or get married then I don't think you should have to pay taxes. If you can't marry I don't think religious zealous assholes should be able to divorce. In my 50+ years on this planet I have never had problem one with a gay person and yet its an every day occurrence with the poor persecuted "christians" in this country. And I agree you all are not monolithic. I love Streisand and my wife and I watch reruns of Will and Grace (actually I'd like to slap the shit out of Grace but I do like everyone else on the show.) And the gay community is a major economic (and fun) source in New Orleans. Not to stereotype, BUT damn (some of) ya'll know how to party. I'm rambling but I'll do my small little part to push for constitutional rights for all Americans.

[roughsatori]

6. A best friend of mine is a straight male film critic

Your post made me smile. His favorite movie is "Breakfast at Tiffany's" LMFAO He is handsome; so women who want to date him always approach me first and ask: "Is he gay? I don't want to be a fool and hit on a gay man." My gay friends ask if we are "secret lovers." He is a great guy. I, on the other hand, seem to be considered a intellectual, heterosexual male, with a rough past. I loved the points you made...and, not to stereotype, gays are the best to party with. Rough Satori

[BOSSHOG]

8. And I do know

that the bartenders in the French Quarter love Big Gay events in town because they say Gays are the best tippers, the most fun and they behave themselves while still having fun. And I also know that their parades are awesome. And I do love the Gay beauty pageant during Mardi Gras. Over the top campiness at its finest.

[roughsatori]

10. BOSSHOG, I remember you from my DU past

I always read your posts. Thanks.

[Creideiki]

12. I'm the quiet guy that doesn't say much that isn't a "party animal"

I don't tend to dance, except for two-stepping and line dancing, either.

Then again, my favorite type of music is classical, so maybe I am gay. But my second favorite type is country, so maybe I'm not.

[zonmoy]

14. I don't happen to be a party animal either.

mostly because I also happen to be an aspie. I have aspergers syndrome. basically a mild related disorder to autism.

[roughsatori]

18. I admire your mentioning your Asperger's Syndrome

I exhibit extremes of intellectual function coupled with social-phobia. Yet people think of me as an outgoing humorous man. Much of my social behavior is merely me studying what is "normal" and then imitating what I perceive as "correct."

And as my IQ is beyond the 165 range I confuse intellectual discourse with social closeness. Research shows that extreme deficits are very frequent in IQs higher than 160 on the WAIS-R test.

I find the disorder of parties to be dysphoric.

I do not have Asperger's, but I am aware that it is a diagnostic category that many times couples high-level intellectual functioning with a kind of naive set of social skills. No wonder it interests me.

Thank God that I love words, poetry, reading, writing, editing, solo computer scrabble, and downloading and taking Graduate level exams in literature, English, Art, Theology and Philosophy. A best friend of mine is a simultaneous translator of French-to-English and English-to-French for neurologists. We use to spend every Friday ld diagramming sentences and rate each other's scansion ability we found on poems, essays, and menus.

I guess my strange sense of humor is what draws people to me in real life. I am so very different on the outside than the "real" me which I have shared with few individuala.

I am making no sense and sound quite mad.

Thank you for your post: Rough Satori

[roughsatori]

15. o you two-step and line dance to Beethoven or John Cage? NT

[mitchtv]

22. Classical ? so that's it

I even like opera, but I always felt that I never got the full "gay' package I don't dress well, and I leave the home designing to Partner. Solid colors, that's me.
My second favorite music is South American music.I don't even like show music, and the key "Ungay" part is I always enjoyed "Will and Grace"(But now we have LOGO so, I'm too good for that now)

[TechBear_Seattle]

13. I'm reminded of an old Romanovsky & Phillips song

Romanovsky & Phillips were an openly gay musical duo who did some great songs in the 80s and 90s (although a lot of it is pretty dated now.) In particular....

What Kind of Self-Respecting Faggot Am I?
In the style of a 50s "do-whop" song.

Guess that I was destined to be the kind of guy
Who never really fits in and never keeps in time
So now I've started asking the question on my mind
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

I moved to San Francisco, it seemed the place to be
But I'm not into disco, and bars intimidate me
My only can of Crisco is where it's s'posed to be
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

Don't own a single record by Barbra, Bette, or Judy
Heard of Bette Davis, but never saw her movies
Guess I'm irresponsible, it seems I've shirked my duty
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

I don't read magazines like GQ
My hair's too long, my clothes are out of style
And when the conversation turns to Broadway shows
All I can do is sit and smile

I don't brunch on Sundays, don't own a set of weights
I wouldn't dream of screwing 'til after several dates
I know it's quite pathetic, I might as well be straight
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

It's so hard to be a homo, it's hard to play the game
When you don't own a poster of Marilyn what's-her-name
I know it's hard to fathom, it's really quite a shame
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

See also http://www.romanovskyandphillips.com/

[roughsatori]

16. That is funny: a friend of mine had a Queer-Core band: "Size Queen."

He used to play all the alternative rock places. I loved the name of his band: Size Queen

He is a psychologist now...oh the horror!

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Thanks for posting this

I've had quite a day with encountering the mundane mind as it were. I was told to accept being called not gay, but 'a homosexual' as that is what pleased the speaker, who was also shocked earlier in the day to find I was 'a homosexual' due to the fact that, yes, I don't look like one! And that I listen to 'hard core music' as she said. She liked the music, but was suprised that 'a homosexual' would like it too. Suprised, but I don't think very pleased.
So thanks for running this thread.
In gratitude,
Anne Homosexual

[roughsatori]

19. You're welcome Bluenorthwest.

I feel bad that your day sucked so much due to that speaker. BEing called "homosexual" is so much of the past. That word reminds me that the DSM listed Homosexuality as a mental-illness when I was a kid. Thanks for your post.

[Moloch]

20. That's quite a rant there.

I don't understand why you would be posting it in the GLBT forum, though. The people here either are gay/lesbian or are not the people who would stereotype us. Wouldn't your rant be more productive on a right-wing site?

[roughsatori]

21. I am sorry that my writing was not precise enough for you to be able to understand my post.

But too be frank, your response is obtuse and reads as purposeful obfuscation.

I posted this as something that those of us who really are GLBT experience daily. I was hoping other GLBT DUers would share my feelings; which, if you read every response (except yours), I accomplished.

I doubt if you read my post. If you had you would have read this: "I wrote this today in response to another heterosexual person stereotyping GLBT people. I hope I have not offended you as that was not my intention."

I take your question "Wouldn't your rant be more productive on a right-wing site?, as indicative of the kind of sites you visit. You use the modifier "more" before the word "productive" in your question. That is the word that betrays you. It states the opposite of your claims regarding my rhetoric. You question that my post is "productive;" but that it could be even more productive if I took your advice on where I should post my words.

Damkira you use the word "us" in quotes; cleverly you use it divisively to attack. That is a right-wing tactic as is your obfuscation. Damkira, It would repulse me to ever be a part of your "us."

[Moloch]

31. Wow.

Instead of responding to my post, you have chosen to personally attack me. You are not only claiming I'm not gay but that I'm a conservative as well?

[zonmoy]

24. whether another gay person stereotypes other gay people is a matter of opinion

if you are in a town that has one gay bar and it isn't a bear bar. then do the non-bearish gays think that as a bear you are out of place. I happen to be a bear that happens to be attracted to other bears. don't have much problems with non bears although transsexuals and cross dressers I don't find attractive. I prefer men that like me would be easily mistaken for straight. or at minimum the leatherman if I cant find other bears.

[kdpeters]

23. There is a gay community and a gay culture and we are damn lucky to have it.

Using the term "Gay Community" leads to heterosexual people thinking (and the MSM promoting) that all GLBT people think, act, dress, and talk alike. We don't.

I use the term "community" because that is what we are. Personally, I prefer "queer" because it is more inclusive of all minority sexual and gender identities, but sometimes use "gay" or even the uber-PC alphabet soup variations. But in no case do I choose terms for our use based on what it might lead SOME heterosexual people to think.

It goes without saying to all but the most bigoted that no subgroup is a monolithic entity -- and those people will think what they want regardless of what terms we use. We do, however, share much in our experiences and perspective that we tend to think very similarly about many things affected by our similar experiences.

Our community is distinct from the majority in many rich and wonderful ways that I truly cherish. We have our own history, our own heroes, and our own traditions and language. Whether or not you embrace them, they are there for many of us who do as well as for all our heterosexual brothers and sisters who accept us as equals just as we are without making demands on us to fit preconceived notions of how they would have us act, think and talk.

Some heterosexuals laugh at us--that all gays own Cher, and Barbara Streisand Cd's, and watch "Will and Grace." I do not. Yet, some gay people do. But some GLBT people find joy in Cher, Babs, and "Will & Grace.

So what if all of us really are Cher fans? What difference would it make? Would we be any more or less equal? Of course not. These are neutral or positive elements that many of us embrace for ourselves. They aren't the false, malicious negative labels coming from outside ignorance and hatred. The community is there to strengthen, support, and validate the self-worth of every one of us in this community. For me, the important fact is that many of us do embrace and identify with something they see in Streisand. I feel no need to dispel that part of our culture as stereotype just because I'm not a fan. As a whole, we are distinct from the majority in more ways than just the obvious one. We are not "just like straight people" except for loving the same sex, yet we are still just as equal and just as worthy.

[zonmoy]

25. thing is there isn't just one gay culture.

there are many.

[kdpeters]

28. I was explicit in my post about embracing the diversity within the gay community.

So I don't understand your response because it seems like you just reworded one of the points I was trying to make. That was exactly what I was trying to say is that there is indeed a great diversity among us in how we express or identify ourselves that are nevertheless uniquely gay. My point is that we ARE a community and we should embrace the whole out of unity rather than reject and disparage certain members (e.g. Streisand/Cher/"Will and Grace" fans) to gain favor with heterosexuals who would laugh at them.

[zonmoy]

30. might have missed it.

that is what I get when I try to scan or read something too fast.

[kdpeters]

32. I'm often not as clear as I think I am.

I'll try again to get the gist across.

Basically, my gripe with the OP boils down to what seems like his counterproductive response to some heterosexuals' attacks on some members of our community. It seems to me the OP's reaction is to actually reject and disparage those members of our community being attacked or laughed at. In this instance, it was gay Cher/Streisand/W&G fans. Isn't that tacitly accepting and condoning the bigotry? Shouldn't the point be to challenge it?

There's nothing at all wrong with any of those interests. They've never hurt anyone but they've all been loyal allies to all of us in the gay community whether fan or not. Instead the analogy was made comparing them to war, poverty, and deadbeat parenthood. It was way over the top in rejecting part of our community by comparing them to the worst scoundrels in society simply for their choice of innocuous entertainment. Instead, we ought to defend anyone in our community, and, by extension, our entire community, from those very heterosexuals doing the disparaging and stereotyping.

[roughsatori]

33. I am sorry that I implied that gays should avoid the Chers and Streisands who are loved by many Gays

I sometimes feel a kinship with Garland, Liza, Cher etc. There is something in how they have attempted to survive and they inspire us, I think, to not give up.

I, too, prefer "Queer." I think the word illustrates an embracing of how we as GLBT people are different and many times brave and against the grain.

I feel simpatico with Jean Genet (whose work I admire immensely). And yet must accept his truth: he was not "pro-gay-liberation." He reveled in being an outsider. He stated that being "equal" to heterosexuals would destroy Queer, OutSider culture. His words on GLBT equality are now considered "counter-revolutionary" I do identify with his thoughts on the culture of the misfit and criminal. But I am for complete equal-rights under the law for all GLBT people.


I too, in use the term "gay culture." I love that our culture produced the poets Cavafy, O'Hara, Ginsberg, Marlowe, Catullus, Whitman, (and my obsession and love ) Emily Dickinson, Wilde, and the anti-war, brilliantly skilled, Wilfred Owen, and many more.

And when it comes to the novel: the prose of Virginia Woolf is astounding. Her sentence structure is the finest in the English Language. Her sentences make Hemingway's were written by a simpleton.

I emulate the first true, modern, Queer couple who had a relationship and creative partnership I cam only dream of having: Claude Cahun and Marcel Moore. These 2 lesbian women were conceptual artists, lovers, resistance fighters against the Nazis, imprisoned, and a unique, Queer team crating true art with their jointly created unsettling avant-garde photographs.

I agree with your statement: "As a whole, we are distinct from the majority in more ways than just the obvious one. We are not "just like straight people" except for loving the same sex, yet we are still just as equal and just as worthy."

What I was trying to convey was my anger at the heterosexuals who automatically assume that Queers love "Will and Grace," and own all of Cher's Cd's.

It is oppression when a heterosexual remarks that "all gays" love Barbara Streisand. This oppressive trope does not reflect on Streisand or any Queer who may adore her. Stereotypes that are used, even unconsciously, to control GLBT peoples self images are false constructs that that work as tools dismantling our individuality, humanity, and Gay group identities.

Your post was great in that it has me thinking about Queer Identity. Thank you. This post of mine lacks coherence. I hope it is possible for others to understand a little of what I tried to write.

[kdpeters]

35. Wow! Thanks for your response. It truly is a pleasure to listen to your thoughts

on queer identity and culture. There is just so much to your post that you barely touched on that could really be discussed in greater depth. I definitely understand where you're coming from much better. I love the way you think and express yourself and you've given me much to think about. I don't see why you should care what any heterosexual thinks about you because you're obviously a swell guy anyone would be lucky to know. If anyone can't appreciate you for you without trying to put you into some pigeonhole -- fuck 'em.

[roughsatori]

36. Thank you for such warm compliments

I was worried you might think I was attempting to argue with you. I was not, as I find many more similarities, than differences in our words.

This anecdote relates to your words about anyone who can't appreciate me:

I used to live with a very kind, intelligent, butch lesbian. One weekend I was bitching about not having a date. Kathy said slowly, "Joseph, you are very intelligent, funny, have a good job, are drug free, good-looking, and funny," she then smiled gently and aaked: "Did you ever think the problem might be your personality?"

Her concern and amusement was evident in her tone and expression. She is still the friend who will never shirk from telling me the truth.

Thanks for getting my mind awake kdpeters.

[RedXIII]

26. ,,well i believe it's partly from

magazines like Instinct that have ads for stuff like dance music and the winter party festival, personally i feel like we should scold the magazine for not advertising things like rock concerts.

[zonmoy]

29. or at minimum have them also advertise and have magazines for other parts of gay culture.

[roughsatori]

34. Yes: pressure the producers of products aimed at GLBT wallets

Stand up to those who market our needs by presenting a simplistic, name-branded image of Gay Culture.

[zonmoy]

37. or simply telling them that they are missing some of the market

by assuming that all gays like the same things.

[roughsatori]

38. Your idea would be the best and fastest. I could write a letter or 2 today

Thanks for reminding me that sometimes the most effective tool is "simply telling" our point of view.