The Master's Tools

[lightningandsnow]

(Here's a rant I posted to facebook, I feel it might be relevant here.)

Something has been annoying me for quite some time. There seems to be a division in the GLBTQ community. Between the "good gays" and the "bad gays".

According to some people (although they don't quite say it like this, outright, this is the general sentiment), the "good gays" are Bob and Jim or Jane and Sarah living down the street in their nice neighbourhood, with possibly a kid in the picture. They are monogamous, do not have any sexual fetishes (at least that we know of). They do not dress “inappropriately” in public. They are not politically radical, although they may be slightly left-leaning. You may call them “straight-acting”, although I rather dislike that term. A transsexual may be a “good gay”, depending on who you ask, but lord save us from the genderfucks!

The “bad gays”- well, you know who they are. The kinky folks. The nudists. The radicals, the drag kings and queens, the butch women and femme men. The polyamorists, sex workers, and people who like to get action in bathhouses. Basically, anyone who is held up by the religious right as being an example of the depravity of GLBTQ people.

As with the “bad gays”, how has most of today’s GLBTQ movement reacted? By throwing them under the bus. And let’s not pretend that the GLBTQ movement even contains all those letters. If the ENDA fiasco is any indication, the T’s are hardly considered part of the community by a lot of people. And the B’s are just along for the ride. And forget the Q’s….queer? What? We’re not “queer”…we’re just like you!

Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? “We’re just like you!” That may work for some, but what about those who aren’t? I remember someone telling me that most gays are typical suburban types, with long-term partners and kids and such, living the American dream. Are most heteros you know like that? I would say no. Not all, or even most straight people have to live like that (although I have nothing against it). Why are we holding up ourselves to a different, presumably “higher” standard?

One argument I’ve heard a lot is that the “freaks” of GLBTQ culture are making us look bad. And I suppose it could be true. The religious right loves to show clips of fetish fairs to supposedly show the world how “immoral” we are. And plenty of “mainstream” queers themselves shudder when anyone suggests an alliance between queers and sex workers, or queers and kinky folks. As if to say, “How dare you suggest I condone such a thing!” And plenty of queers are quick to distance themselves from “promiscuous” gay men and drag queens.

Nobody is saying you must wear a dress or go to a bathhouse or sell sex. Of course not.

But laws against sex work have been used in the past against gay bars, especially when sexual activities were taking place.

And the same arguments used against polyamorous relationships and sexual fetishes: “It’s just not normal!” or “It’s icky!” – have been used time and time again against same-sex relationships.

Don't people know that the Stonewall revolution was started by a bunch of pissed off trannies and drag queens?

Insist on throwing all the people you don’t like or know a lot about under the bus, and how far it gets you. See how many of us have human rights at the end of it. You might, but what about the rest of us? And if so many of us are left behind, how far have we really gotten?

It was Audre Lorde who once said, “The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house.” When we use the same tactics - against members of our own community – that the most vicious homophobes and transphobes use, what, exactly, are we achieving? Are we combating homophobia or transphobia? No. We are simply aggravating sexuality- and gender-related bigotry. Using the “master’s tools” will get us nowhere. It might get some of us somewhere in the short run, but in the long run, most of us will get left behind.

I dream of a world where everyone can express their identity as they see fit, without oppression. I dream of a world where nobody is told to shut up simply because they are living their lives without harming anyone and still make people uncomfortable. I dream of a fun, sexy world where rights are not just pursued for a select few of us, but all of us.

And if you think I’m “embarrassing” your community by saying this, this proud freaky queer says one thing: fuck you.

[Toasterlad]

1. Sing It, Sister.

I made the same points during the height of the Larry Craig frenzy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1702010&mesg_id=1702288

If we have conform to what straight America wants us to be in order to be treated equally, what have we won?

[xchrom]

2. sadly hetero-normativity has become the gold-standard.

it's more than a little bothersome to me -- and i have my opinions about it's roots etc.

what i know is that we have a history and culture to be nothing but proud of.

and some of the best of that lgbtiq history has been written by those of us who stood farthest outside the boundaries.

and in their hearts and souls -- the lgbtiq community knows that.

may they come around to embrace it once again.

[hulklogan]

3. This is such an important point, I wish I could recommend it forty hundred times

We should want the furry escort downtown to have the same equal rights as Amy and Jo Suburbia. I'm not willing to throw any part of our community out the door for a half-assed ENDA or a half-assed hate crimes bill.

If that makes me a bad gay, then I'm bad bad bad!

[mitchtv]

4. I've been both, now I am old and unattractive

so I am now a Good gay, God, I miss the bad ole days

[Toasterlad]

19. I'd Do Ya, Mitch!

:loveya:

[mitchtv]

23. I was bad and cute

Thanks Toasty.I('m holding you to that.) My favorite saying "When you're too old to cut the mustard, you can always lick the jar"! It means more now than ever,:eyes: I came across some 'Xmas cards" I posed for one time in the bargain rack , how embarassing

[Toasterlad]

24. Oh, I'm Going to Need to See Those Cards!

[mitchtv]

25. The Santa hat is still in style for Xmas wear

In those days I couldn't afford Cards.

[readmoreoften]

5. More like good straights and bad straights.

It's the straight people who are causing the rift. Straight people who say "hey you acceptable homos--get your people in line!" And of course it's wrong that some (though very few) insecure gender-normative, middle class gays take up this fight for the bad straights within our community. But for every gender-normative, middle class gay or lesbian person who is 'ashamed' there are many who are proud of the genderqueer folks in the community. It's equally bad when genderqueer and polyamorous people called monogamous and gender-normative queers 'sell-outs' and 'assimilationists' because they aren't trans or poly. Some people simply aren't genderqueer and some people fell in love. I don't think that an anti-capitalist non-genderqueer, monogamous couple who has linked their struggle to other global struggles is less radical than a genderqueer or polyamorous person who frequents trendy nightclubs in a major metropolis.

There is no reason to try to appeal to straight people's demands for our self-esteem or group esteem. There is also no reason to criticize people for living their lives authentically and good straight people love us for who we are and don't make us apologize.

[kdpeters]

6. Let's hear it for the queers -- and we're all queers.

The debate about who is or is not worthy is one of the most offensive intra-GLBT dialogs we have, and more specifically, the idea that us gayfolks should throw our transgender brothers and sisters overboard rather than fight united until we get an inclusive ENDA. I was very disappointed in hearing so many of my fellow gay men sounding like bigots.

I find it more offensive to hear gayfolks disparaging other gayfolks than when it comes from the phobes. We're supposed to know better.

Great post. Recommended.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Here and elsewhere

I've noticed many people who like to tell GLBT people how we should think and how we should be allowed to speak while seeking rights. They get in a huge uproar, claiming that while I live a 365 gay life, they are 'true allies' and final judges of the existance of sexism, homophobia, transphobia etc. They constantly claim they fully understand the shoes we walk in. But they don't.
Those who want to be praised as wonder liberals can get up off their butts and take action, or be treated as just another part of the binding chains. Nicey Poo time is long gone. They want respect, they can earn it.

"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to preserve their reputation or social standing never can bring about reform. Those who are really in earnest are willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation, and publicly and privately, in season and out, avow their sympathies with despised ideas, and bear the consequences." -- Susan B. Anthony

[Iggo]

15. I don't claim to understand.

I don't even think that you need me or want me to understand the shoes you walk in. How can I ever fully understand?

What I do know is this: You are human beings just like the rest of us and deserve the respect and the rights and the privileges that the rest of us enjoy. You are We. We are You. And if I have to fight in the streets to defend or promote that belief, then so be it. I am no "wonder-liberal." I'm just a common sense man who's sick of the bullshit. What's right is right.

Equal treatment under the law for ALL citizens. RIGHT NOW!

I'm all in, kids.

(ON EDIT: In fact, replace "citizens" with "people." I don't want to be lumped in with the fence-builders.)

[One_Life_To_Give]

8. Hate to rain on your parade, but

there are limits to what is acceptable. Just because someone wants to have sex while on the witness stand while being cross examined doesn't mean it should be allowed. What you can't do is let the religious right set the discussion of where the limits should be set.

[hulklogan]

9. Ummm, we're talking about real life living people here, not specific acts.

Just because someone wants to have sex while on the witness stand doesn't mean they should be discriminated against. Maybe you didn't understand the main idea of the OP?

[One_Life_To_Give]

11. Depends upon how public the act is.

Most of what Aspiegirl says are good points. But you can't have no standards, whereby any activity is acceptable. Take for example anonymous hookups in public places. To what extent should random children in said environment be able to see and hear what transpires?

[hulklogan]

12. Can you quote the passage in the OP that defends public sex in places where children are present?

I didn't think so. You're doing yourself and GLBT people a disservice by focusing on this made up public sex advocacy you see in the OP.

[readmoreoften]

26. WRONG PLACE

[Toasterlad]

21. DON'T! YOU! DARE!

I heard more than enough "Won't someone PLEASE think of the children!!!" bullshit during the Larry Craig fiasco to last me a fucking lifetime! No one's kids are seeing gay men fuck in restrooms! More children get struck by lightning than witness gay men fucking in public! Leave it! Leave it RIGHT NOW!

[readmoreoften]

20. What makes you think that only LGBT people would do this?

Public sex is hardly an LGBT issue.

[readmoreoften]

27. You're a full-of-shit hypocrite.

So you want to boys taking their prom dates to make-out point and the drive-in?

As if heterosexuals don't get it on in public all the time: the mile high club, make-out point, sex in movie theaters, MTV spring break. You people grope and cruise each other all the time. You just don't notice it because it's your own group doing it.

Hypocrite.

[ThomCat]

42. You said it absolutely right!

x(

Assholes who exagerate that any display of gay affection is like "fucking on a witness stand." but say nothing about how common straight affection is in public...

I call total Bullshit on that post! x(

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. agreed. heteronormative is good. queer is bad.

and that sucks ass.

[Iggo]

16. "Heteronarmative"?

Oh, dear god. I learn something new every day!

[DarkTirade]

13. 5th rec. Woot!

:)

Seriously though... as someone who's not all that gay, but very much queer by 'normal' standards, this sort of thing annoys the hell out of me too. I hear it often enough being spewed by right-wingers who claim not to hate gays, and yet they try to blame homophobia on the fact that 'the gays' scare the straights by being different. I sure as hell don't want to hear it from our own community.

[terrya]

14. I used to wince about accepting "the bad gays" in the GLBT community.

But that was intolerant, stupid, thinking on my part. And I apologize for my attitudes.

As you said, the trannies and the drag queens started Stonewall. They were the ones who said "ENOUGH" and fought the police that July night.

Our community encompasses all. Period.

Great post and thank you.

[Prism]

17. The "bad gays" are often just as intolerant as the "good gays"

It's a door that swings both ways, pardon the expression. I'm sure we've all heard words like "assimilationist" and "heteronormative" thrown about as a kind of ad hominem against GLBTers who are suburban or not much into gay culture or "straight-acting". (I loathe a lot of these terms).

Even on DU, I see the phrase "self-loathing" tossed about against gays who hold a simple disagreement of opinion about how to achieve gay equality. The posters' goals are the same, but stray from the "accepted" path, and there go the accusations that someone isn't a "good" gay, that they must hate themselves, or they're trying to assimilate or be heteronormative, or that they're not really gay at all.

That's just as unacceptable as what the OP outlines above, but for whatever reason it's almost never called out.

The root of the problem is the paradox inherent in the gay movement: The success of the community leads to its diminishment. The more GLBTers are accepted into the society, the less many GLBTers feel the need to mesh into an exclusively gay culture and community. Queer is an identity construct actively and willfully adapted and adopted to deal with social and political inequality and alienation. More and more GLBTers don't particularly feel the need to identify with queer or what it represents/represented.

It's that lack of queer inculcation that creates a lot of tension between various GLBT groups. I admit, I'm not on board with a lot of what other GLBTers promote in the name of the community. I'm for simple equality, but a lot of silliness somehow attaches itself to the community through the trojan horse of political ideology, and much of the time I'm left scratching my head going "Why on earth would I support this just because I'm gay?" Which it is my right to do. I don't really care about the rights of sex workers. Sorry, I don't. In the same way I don't care about furry rights this week. Sure, you could argue why X cause should be under the umbrella of GLBT rights, but oftentimes I find the arguments strained and reduced to "If we're fighting for sexual issue X, we should fight for sexual issue Y and Z!" merely because they're sexual issues. Doesn't work like that.

Pride parades, don't care. They're really a gay mardi gras at this point.

Promiscuity is a prickly issue. I'm certainly in no position to judge *coughs*, but we are a community that was decimated by the AIDS epidemic. When we see meth use rising and HIV infection increasing, I'm certainly not going to "rebel" against those "scolds" who say "Hey, you know, maybe fucking everything that moves is a not so great idea. Whatcha think?" Sexual responsibility is a LIFE AND DEATH issue. How quickly we forget.

Weird that promiscuity and drag queens are lumped together. Not sure what the two have in common. Both are really really fun? What's the connection?

There's a difference between respecting differences and identities and lumping everything under the sun into a political viewpoint. The OP is less about identity differences and more about political disagreements. I don't want anyone harrassed or discriminated against no matter how they choose to express themselves. I want GLBTers to have full equality. That does not mean I signed up to support sex workers, to turn a blind eye to damaging drug use, or to curtail criticism of irresponsible, disease-spreading sex, or a hundred other things.

It's one thing to be "Hooray! Anything goes! Support me!" and another to say "Do what you want, but there are consequences, and maybe you should think about them."

People should be free to be exactly who they are. However, supporting that doesn't mean supporting everything in the OP.

[DarkTirade]

18. Even if you don't agree completely, you seem to get the gist of it. :)

And if you do see it swinging the other way (especially on here), call people out on it. They won't change unless they realize they're doing the same thing they complain about when others do it to them.

Even if 9 times out of ten the person just snaps back at you, there's still that one out of ten who might pause and think about it. Which means its worth doing, IMO. :)

[insleeforprez]

22. Amen

"The root of the problem is the paradox inherent in the gay movement: The success of the community leads to its diminishment. The more GLBTers are accepted into the society, the less many GLBTers feel the need to mesh into an exclusively gay culture and community. Queer is an identity construct actively and willfully adapted and adopted to deal with social and political inequality and alienation. More and more GLBTers don't particularly feel the need to identify with queer or what it represents/represented."

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Ayesha]

28. This discussion was done to death a couple of months ago

And I will respond to it in the same way I did before. As a community we ARE scrutinized. The actions of a few reflect on all of us. We are not alone in this - African-Americans, immigrants, and other minority groups have the same, lousy deal. If the actions of that smaller group are perceived as hindering the rights of the more mainstream group, some in the mainstream group are going to want to throw the others under the bus. "You're holding back my rights, which I desperately need, so I'm going to do what any desperate person would do - save myself and those I love."

My personal perspective on it is this. As a lesbian and one half of a couple, I want the same rights as the heterosexual couple next door - to get married, to not be discriminated against in employment, housing, or public accommodations. I want all people to have those rights. I also want us to be seen as no different than the couple next door - no weirder, no more "freaky" etc. just by virtue of being a lesbian couple. I don't want to be seen as being like or inherently connected to public sex, BDSM, or polyamory. Yes, straight people do those things too, but the general societal consensus is that they belong in PRIVATE. The LGBT community seems to have an inordinate association with these subcultures and particularly the public aspects of them, and IMO that is not a good thing. I do believe we need to counter that perception in order to win our rights. The "right" if one exists, to have sex in a bathroom stall, does NOT IN ANY WAY compare to the right to make medical decisions for the love of one's life, or to not get fired for having a picture of your partner on your desk at work. In fact, to assert such "rights" mocks our struggle. People DIE for being gay or trans and telling someone about it, or even just getting found out. No one will die because they weren't allowed to whip their two girlfriends for kicks in the front yard.

[lightningandsnow]

29. I see your point. Kind of.

However, you seem to be saying that nobody else is murdered for being sexually nonconformist.

Sex workers are murdered all the time. And while you might gay "It's a choice; being GLBT isn't", does it really matter? They're still people who deserve the basic rights supposedly given to all people: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

Sex workers who have been murdered:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/dec/22/suffolkmurders.audreygillan?gusrc=rss&feed=fromtheguardian

http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php/topic,1645.0.html

http://www.vanishedvoices.com/Directory.html

[Ayesha]

32. Important, but separate issue

I think that violence against prostitutes and violence against GLBT people both stem from our society's messed-up attitudes about sexuality, but from there, the issues diverge significantly. I see prostitution as partly an issue of poverty and childhood abuse/neglect, and part workers' rights. Sex work is a choice, but only nominally so for most women who do it. Childhood abuse and economic pressures drive a lot of women to prostitution. Coming from that type of background puts them at high risk of being further victimized. If we can help these women when they are children, we can prevent many of them from going into sex work.

Also, one of the biggest reasons that prostitutes are victims of violence is because the profession is illegal. Legalizing and regulating it would save many lives. I think that people should be able to sell sex/their bodies if they choose to, it's a fundamental right, so long as their doing so doesn't harm anyone else. Private escorts with verified STD test cards and brothels that are licensed and regulated would reduce violence and disease. Prostitutes might also gain more respect from society as a whole. In Nevada, they have legal brothels, and the women there are treated like professionals. While I doubt it's the job they always dreamed of, they are there by choice, not out of desperation or because a pimp forced them to sell their bodies.

Those issues don't really apply to GLBT people in the same way. We weren't driven to gayness by child abuse. Our jobs aren't related to sex (except, of course, for GLBT sex workers). Gaining our rights does get us more respect in the community, but there's a difference between a job/career, no matter how controversial, and an immutable aspect of identity.

[Toasterlad]

31. Oh, Balls.

Sorry to ruin your dreams of suburban bliss, but even if you try very, very hard to be like all the good little straight people, the good little straight people are still going to see you as a lesbian first and a person second. Hang-ups about BDSM or polyamory (I won't even discuss your "public sex" nonsense, which exists more as an anti-gay talking point than an actual reality) may provide a convenient excuse for straity to blast you, but even if you're as outwardly vanilla as can be, they're still going to think about you and your wife together and go "ew" (unless you're really hot lipstick lesbians who give the impression that you might let a clueless, horny guy who really doesn't understand the concept of lesbianism join them).

It is cowardly and degrading to cowtow to straight America's hypocritical vision of what "normal" is. Grovel as you please, but don't expect many of us to join you. I for one will be too busy going to gay pride parades and enjoying the diversity that is GLBT culture.

Fun fact: Neither BDSM or polyamory are included in spell check. That uptight Skinner... ;)

[Ayesha]

33. Wow

You sound very bitter and jaded. Your statements don't reflect my experience at all, either. Our neighbors have all been very friendly towards us here in San Diego. No hate mail, no crosses on the lawn, just hi and how are you. Obviously I can't know their inner thoughts, but I seriously doubt that our bedroom activities are a subject they dwell upon. I certainly prefer NOT to think about the sex lives of the 80-somethings down the block, or our hetero couple neighbors across the street who are very nice but have matching mustaches.

I have been disabled all of my life. When people meet me, they sometimes see the wheelchair before the person - but that fades quickly once they get to know me. For the most part, here in CA, being gay is the same. I'm sure that is not the case in parts of my home state of Indiana...but that's why I live here!

[Toasterlad]

34. Not At All Bitter Or Jaded. Just Disgusted With Sell Outs.

Of course people are nice once they get to know you. That's why they call it "ignorance": judging by outward appearance only, no real knowledge of the person. Ignorance is applied to disabled people as well as people into leather, feather boas, and genital piercings. Mr. and Mrs. Straight America would probably find that scary leather man or that atrocious drag queen perfectly delightful company once they got to know THEM, too. What you're proposing is that we feed that ignorance by keeping all the "freaky" elements of our culture under wraps. That's no way to open minds.

More importantly, your opinion is elitist and divisive. While you may not care for the "freaks", you have more in common with them than you do with your nicest straight neighbors. Turning your back on them is disgusting, especially in light of the fact that it's only possible for you and your wife to live together openly as a couple because of the way paved by the kind of freaks you've spurned.

[mitchtv]

35. SD ? ha

they may be nice to your face, but would turn around and send a homophobe to just about every office they can( with few notable exceptions) there in Orange south). Granted things are changing even there but it is still dominated by the forces of exclusion and homophobia.

[qb]

30. Thank you, AspieGrrl. I have the same dream.

I guess by my demeanor and appearance I'm a "good gay".
My boyfriend? Some would consider him a "bad gay". But he is the most honest and loving man I have ever met, and we are crazy about each other.
Whatever happened to "It's what's on the inside that counts"? Didn't we all learn that in kindergarten?

[Chovexani]

36. Aspie, honey, I love you to pieces.

:loveya:

This freak will back you up any time. It's the "freaks" who paved the way for all the Log Cabin assimilationists.

[Bladecollector]

37. Sorry folks

But we stand or fall by public opinion..is it fair?..no it is just the way it is. I don't disown anybody in the family,but "the bad gays" to use your term are killing us with the str8's. And because "they" decide if we get our rights,then we have to start looking at "our" image. There is a time and place for fetish...and mainstreet isn't it. We are at war folks and the emeny is winning. And as far as "never being accepted by str8s"...bs I have seen it done.

[Chovexani]

38. What's this "we" shit, kemosabe?

You don't need to disown me, sweetcheeks, because I have no time for people who would throw their brothers and sisters under the bus in the name of political expediency. Read a history book or watch one of the many fine documentaries on the subject, it was not the Log Cabin types who won us the few freedoms we do have. It was the trannies, the leathermen and fetishists, the bondage queens, the drag kings, the Puerto Rican hustlers. The ones who hung out in "seedy" bars where the Respectable Upright Homosexual did not dare be seen. They were the ones with the stones to fight the unconstitutional police raids that were commonplace in that era (and still are in small towns to this day). One word: Stonewall. It was not a tea party.

If you truly think the militant straights (tm HulkLogan) truly accept you, I cordially invite you to check out the Best of LGBT threads here in this forum. There you will see what some of our self-professed straight "allies" really think of us. Matthew Shepard was a "good gay" and he got the shit beat out of him and was tied to a fence to die. So are many of the other "good gays" who are beaten and murdered.

As a parting shot, say hello to the freaks, the "bad gays" who fought and died for you and won you the right to be a snivelling Log Cabin douchebag:

[Bladecollector]

39. We is us friend

And who said anything about the LCR?...wasn't me. Also just what rights have we won? Last time I checked there are 19 states that ban gay marriage. LGBT still can't serve in the US military, EDNA and Federal Hate crimes law still have not passed. And I new here and have not had a chance to read everything yet....But if Democratics who are about the only people who will even talk to us are balking....maybe just maybe we might want to look at our image a little bit.




edited because I can't spell

[Chovexani]

40. We is NOT us.

We can gather in bars and clubs for the most part without threat of arrest. We can have parades with the "freaks" you so hate. We can adopt in some places and, in one state at least, can get married.

Yes, we are still second class citizens and homophobia is still rampant and we have not achieved true equality. But if you seriously can't see a difference between where we were as a community in 1969 and where we are today, you obviously don't know WTF happened back then and why even this fucked up situation we're living in now is light years better than what we had. Talk to Bill or any of the other dozens of LGBT in this forum who are older than you and have been there. Shit, read a goddamn book.

Here's a pro tip if you want to avoid getting banned: posting stupid, inflammatory shit in a thread with your 7th post is generally a Bad Idea. Speak less and LURK MORE.

While you're at it, stop blaming the goddamn victim.

HOMOPHOBES ARE HOMOPHOBES AND WILL BE HOMOPHOBES REGARDLESS OF HOW LGBTs BEHAVE.

[Bladecollector]

41. Oh the drama

So we can gather in bars....in big cities like SF,LA,NYC etc well that's nice....And even get married in one state because we got lucky with the judges...not popular vote. So after 30 some years we can have bars that don't get raided by the cops daily...again in large cities...thats nice. But where are we in states like AR,TX,AL,FL etc...not so good. This is not because of drag queens or leather people.But I can safely say that they are not going to go over there very well either.

Also just to clear something up I didn't call ANYBODY freaks and only used "bad gays" in refence to the thread subject. And I don't hate leather people, drag queens etc. either. I have marched in Pride both in Ohio and Long Beach Ca and though I hate to admitt it I am bit older than you seem to think.

[Toasterlad]

53. "older than you seem to think"...Maybe, But What Have You Learned?

Your "lucky with the judges" is the way minorities get rights, friend. Do you think segregation just went away because the general public decided it was silly? Do you think that black people were allowed to marry white people because someone posted a picture in the paper, and everyone went, "Oh, what a lovely couple"?

The majority NEVER WILLINGLY gives rights to the minority. This is why the "let the states decide" thinking of people like Hillary Clinton is so fundamentally flawed and stupid. Even the most casual student of history knows that rights are never granted to the disenfranchised solely on the basis of public opinion.

Many, MANY heterosexuals in this country are ignorant homophobes. This will not change in our lifetime. If we leave it up to them to decide whether or not we can marry, we will never be able to marry, no matter how underground you drive the drag queens.

The reason that people like Ayesha are able to live with their partners openly is directly due to the struggles of the drag queens and the leather people. And I've got news for you: without the drag queens and the leather people, WE WON'T ADVANCE ANY FURTHER. It takes a loud voice to be heard above the homophobic shouts, and people like you and Ayesha, with your soothing whispers of assimilation, will NEVER, EVER get us heard, and will NEVER, EVER get us respect. No one respects an Uncle Tom. Or an Aunt Tom, as Chris Rock once famously said.

If we do not stand up for who we are - ALL OF US - we do not deserve equality. If you do not wish to stand united with us, I respectfully request that you sit down and keep your mouth shut until we make it safe for you to speak.

[Bladecollector]

54. That's where you a wrong on a few issues

1. Africa american couldn't hide for the general public...so they had to fight. I would say that about 80% of our group is in the closet.

2. Drag queens or leather people didn't change people minds about us..because most str8s only see them on the news. Things have gotten better in big cities only because the LGBT is large enough to sway elections....and they're vote counts weather they are in drag or not.

3. And once again I have never said anything about driving anybody underground..that's what you and the others keep saying.

4. and finally the only way we are ever going to get our rights....is by voting and "winning hearts and minds". Because the hetero's are not mostly homophobes..and if you'd talk to them instead playing shock and awe...you'd know that.

[Toasterlad]

59. Great Googly Moogly.

1. I'm completely mystified as to your first point. We don't have to fight because we can blend in? If you agree that we have to fight, why argue the point that we don't have to?

2. Yes, most people only see drag queens and leather daddies on the news. And only for about 40 years. Before that, you couldn't SAY "gay" or "homosexual" on TV, let alone show one. You might not appreciate the face of the gay community they represent, but that face is just as important to who we are as Sally and Betty living in a duplex in suburban Kansas City with their 3 adopted children, 2 dogs, and 6 cats. It is important for straight people to see the drag queens and the leather daddies, because they need to know that some of us are NOT like them...and that doesn't mean we don't deserve equal treatment.

3. Then what do you want? What point have you been trying to make besides costumes and false tits are damaging our cause? If you think that's bad, what course of action would you recommend?

4. We're agreed on the winning hearts and minds. However, as I said before, you don't do that by hiding or apologizing for who you are...or for who your people are. And get off your fucking high horse. I didn't say most of the straights are homophobes. I said that many, MANY of them are. And we're not going to win anything by waiting for them to accept us. And for the record, the vast majority of my friends are straight, and I have absolutely no problem talking to them about anything under the sun. I respect them for who they are, and they damn sure respect me for who I am. I wonder how YOUR straight friends really feel deep down when they hear you trashing members of your own community?

[undergroundpanther]

70. Thank you

This trans-furred feline is right with ya, And I don't give a shit what anyone says or thinks, the bully class will NEVER concede power because someone kisses their ass and plays 'normal'.No the powerful need a spike heel at high speed to the noggin to wake them up. I have a right to be who I am..And I will fight for it,because power concedes NOTHINg without it being forced from them. MLK was great but so were the black panthers willing to shoot and fight the oppressors for that dream.

[ThomCat]

44. The big flaw in your post is that

"We" are all fighting, but you're willing to turn around and fight with the other side once you get your rights. "We" are only your allies until you get what you want. Then, to hell with everyone else.
x(

[Bladecollector]

45. Thomcat

I'm not sure if you where directing that post to me...But no I'm not turning on anybody. This is a counrty wide fight and what happens in SF at leather pride comes back and screws the people in Kentucky. I had never even heard of the Folsom Street Fair before I got hit with " AND YOU PEOPLE WANT TO ADOPT??!!" after they heard about it from their minster. big story all over the internet about people taking their kids to leather pride in SF. Sorry but that is a great way to help the social conservatives to pass laws that will take LGBT parents kids away. So great that some guy can "rub one out" on the public street with kids around..more power to him...until the people I know get a visit from the state...I got nothing against leather pride ,but please remmeber the press is not your friend. And most str8's don't go to Pride and only knows what the media and the screamers at church tell them.

[ThomCat]

46. I think you are turning on people.

Oh No. The people who have always hated us might say something. Quick! Disown the leatherguys in San Francisco!

Who will you disown next?

Who else will you throw under the bus because you have what you want?

We fight for real rights. Solid rights. For everyone. We don't fight until you have what you want and then abandon everyone else.

Leatherguys can be just as great as parents as anyone else. And seeing a guy wearing leather isn't going to hurt any kid. All the people in our community can be who they are, and live the way they want, and have and raise kids. No church in some conservative state can set the standard that we all have to live by.

You say the press is not our friend. No, it never has been. We've always known that. Are you really trying to imply that we should start catering to what the press will tolerate? Are you really trying to imply that we should hide inside an image of whatever the press considers normal, and disown the people who can't?

I have no idea what strategy you're proposing for advancing civil rights, but it sounds a hell of a lot like hiding and begging for their approval.

[Bladecollector]

47. ?

How have I gotten what I want? is gay marriage legal in all 50 states?..nope one state. Can LGBT serve openly in the US military?...nope LGBT are getting thrown out in record numbers. Sorry if I think things like that are more important than wiether some leather queen gets to wear assless chaps at Pride. You idea of advancing civil rights is if we can't wear assless chaps, then we will have nothing...which is just what you'll have. Sorry I don't remeber seeing a state ban on leather queens anywhere....but alot of states with gay marriage bans..and more working on adoption bans. But I guess you got what you wanted..you can wear want you want at Pride.

Also I not saying the leather queens can't be at Pride just don't see how jacking off in public is helping win civil rights.

[closeupready]

49. 'don't see how jacking off in public is helping win civil rights'

I don't know anything about you, but if I had to guess, I would say you've probably led an extremely cloistered, suburban life and probably don't know what a rat looks like, have never seen a gun, don't know what it's like to go hungry.

And then you come here and tell us you think that the winning strategy is not to alleviate poverty or fight racism or even simply just come out of the closet, but rather, be all non-sexual, sweetness and light like costumed characters you find in amusement parks. :eyes:

When the phrase "you need to get out more" was coined, it was coined to describe people like you.

Sorry don't mean to be so harsh, but your tone really pisses me off. :mad:

[Bladecollector]

50. Your right

you don't know me....and yes I have seen a gun and yes I've seen people jack off in public as well. And yes I'm out and proudn to everybody..but never felt the need to show every str8 person I meet my dick. And I didn't say anything about not needing to come out of the closet...because I have come out to people that would flat scare the crap out of most of you. As a matter of fact coming out of the closet is the first line of attack to my "plan".


You folks are pretty judgemental of people who don't agree with everything you say...not very progressive actually. So far I have said nothing about racism or poverty..and yet you have made me out to be Fred Phelps.As far as my tone goes I think I have been civil to all of you so far....unlike most of you.

[closeupready]

55. No, you have not been civil. No one here said jacking off in public was a way to win civil rights;

yet, you're just going on and on about the most extreme examples - jacking off in public to win civil rights, assless chaps, yadda yadda. YOU are the one bringing up such weird ideas.

How do you think that sounds to those of us here trying to have an intelligent discussion? Sounds pretty condescending, and if you don't want to contribute in a positive way, and listen to other's viewpoints, then this site is not for you probably.

[ThomCat]

43. You're awesome, Aspiegrrl!

:hug:

You're part of the new generation of activists, and I hope of lot of your peers understand this too.

This idea that "I conform enough to be accepted, so you damned well should too" really pisses me off. It's saying "I'm going to ignore the fight and struggle that went before me. I've got mine, but I don't care how I got it. Now get out of the way and making a scene on my lawn."

A lot of people in our communities still don't have the saftely, respects and rights they need and deserve. A lot of us aren't willing to settle for the appearance of safety and rights that a few scattered friendly neighborhoods provide. Either we all have rights, real rights, or none of us do.

The fight is still going on, and the ones who think they've already succeeded are getting in they way.

[closeupready]

48. This strong urge among some GLBT people for "normalcy" is an indicator of self-hatred,

IMO.

[Zuiderelle]

51. I don't understand that. How is it self-hatred to live a "normal" life?

What if it just is that way? What if you just have a healthy relationship and children and you're friends with your straight neighbors and you have a house you like in a neighborhood you like, that you chose because it's a good school district? That sounds normal, but why would that be self-hatred? My life is pretty normal by the standards I'm reading here, but I am far from self-hating.

The only way I could strive to be normal in a self-hating way would be to strive to be straight.

Edited to clarify that I have no issue at all with anyone who is not "normal", and I was not very normal myself when I was younger (and still not really "normal" by the simple fact that I am out and gay). I just take issue in you saying that it's some sort of self-hatred to live a normal life simply because one is gay.

[closeupready]

56. Right, actually, I take it back, or I would rephrase what I said.

The impulse to force all those who you see as members of the GLBT community to conform to middle class ideas about how people should live rather than embracing members of the GLBT community AS THEY ARE in all their diversity (as long as no one else is being harmed) is perhaps not self-hatred per se, but is psychologically twisted.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't understand where this notion comes from that gays who live in a manner which heteros disapprove of cause me harm. I don't see it, I don't agree with it, I don't think it, and so I can only conclude that this must be come kind of projection.

[Zuiderelle]

57. When you word it that way, I agree with you completely.

Those who do no harm to anyone do no harm to me. I abhor gay people who reject other gay people simply because they don't fit into their idea of "normal" as much as I abhor straight people who reject gay people for the same reasons.

[closeupready]

58. Exactly.

:hi:

[Ayesha]

61. I think freakiness is the true mask/cover

I see a lot of the more freaky behavior as a reaction to being ostracized, a form of rebellion. You hate me, so I'm going to give you more reason to do so by going against everything I was raised to believe and value, and throw it in your face. It may have served its purpose once upon a time, but now it is holding us back.

People are going to do what they do. We live in a supposedly free country, after all. However, those we choose and/or allow to represent us in the media should be those with whom the average straight Midwesterner can identify, or the average urban African American, or SOME other community that is not the gay community. As Bladecollector said, we get associated with the worst stereotypes that exist. When we talk about wanting to marry, ignorant people will think of gay men getting it on in public bathrooms. Why would people like THAT want to marry, other than to destroy the institution of marriage? they think and say. Never mind that heterosexuals cheat and divorce at alarming rates. Gay people stay in the closet because they fear being associated with bad stereotypes that don't apply to them at all, and therefore being cut off from their family, church, etc. Midwestern parents send their child off to ex-gay camp because they're terrified that s/he will be like the images they see on TV. For example, I think my father, a very typical Midwestern man who lives in Indiana, worried that I would suddenly become whatever his bad image of lesbians was...until I met a nice girl from Minnesota and he really understood that I could be gay and yet the same person I have always been. I am not like him - I'm a Democrat, he's a Republican, I'm an activist, he isn't, I'm somewhat of a hippie, I smoke pot, I have a tattoo...Compared to some people, I'm a bit of a freak, sure. But I have strong values - honesty, monogamy, family, hard work - that my parents raised me with and that I value. I don't have to give those things up because of being gay. Nor should any person have to disconnect from their community and family and its values. We should be integrated, not segregated.

When black people were demanding their civil rights, they did not show images of unemployed members of their community sitting on porches picking banjos, or gang members, or women with 6 kids that each have a different father. Does that mean that no African American in the 1960s played banjo, or was in a gang, or slept around? Does that mean that people who fit those categories should have no rights? Of course not. But such persons were not a positive or typical representation of their community. The people who spoke, and marched, were ministers, doctors, factory workers, parents...regular people. We need to do exactly the same, and we will get the same results. Things will not change overnight - there will still be discrimination and violence even after the laws change - but we will have the legal rights and power to fight it.

[lightningandsnow]

63. I don't think non-monogamy is inherently negative.

I know a young bisexual woman who is in a polyamorous relationship - she has two partners, one male, one female. They seem to have a very happy, stable, loving relationship - there just happens to be more than two people in this relationship. Just what is so wrong with that?

[Bladecollector]

52. nope

Some of us just don't think "Shock and Awe" is always a good plan.

[BillSam]

60. As I've said more than once

our diversity is our greatest strength and our greatest weakness. But our diversity should be celebrated, even if it means we can't always agree with or relate to one another on everything.

I want to make it clear that I've never been in favor of expecting the edgier or more stereotypical members of our community to just disappear. The point has been made -- which I agree with -- that you can be a completely non-stereotypical gay person and you'll still be hated by fundies and scientologists and so on; acting all conservative and Republican won't help in the slightest -- you're still a queer. I understand that some gay people think straights will relate to us better if we're perceived by them as being more "normal," but it's unfair and ridiculous to expect the more outre members of our community to just go back into the closet (as if they could) or move to another planet just to make this happen. I've also made the point -- and agree with one poster up above -- that just because we're GLBT doesn't mean we have to accept every fad or fashionable notion, such as furries (don't get me started!). We can be open-minded and still be questioning and skeptical of some notions and fancies. And we have to accept that while we're all queer, being gay, being bi, and being transgender are different experiences and realities. We were all sort of thrown together for political reasons. We can find a common ground, but there are going to be occasional misunderstandings and clashes.

Things seem to be constantly evolving, however. Looking at the gay male community, for instance. It has only been in recent years that the huge Bear community has become more prominent. This prominence doesn't mean that all gay men must be "butch" (frankly, not all bears are butch anyway), "straight-acting," or conventional; it doesn't mean "queens" should despair or that they're about to be thrown under the bus. It just goes to show that gay men come in all sizes, shapes and manners of expression and modes of behavior, that there are many more gay men on the planet than anyone realizes, and we can't always be picked out easily from the crowd. It encourages more gay men -- many of whom have no real connection to what is supposed to constitute being a gay man, the whole "Queer Eye" business -- to come out and be part of the community. This isn't a threat to drag/femme culture -- although drag culture does seem a trifle dated these days -- but an alternative that many gay men simply feel more comfortable with. It's hardly "going straight" or selling out. Some gay men are "fabulous" and some are just plain old guys, but we're all gay brothers. (As I've said, I may roll my eyes at some of my femme brothers at times, but the gay world would be much less colorful without our drag queens and leather kings.) Ditto for lesbians and so on.

I'm a bear, what some would call "straight-acting" (hardly), but at the same time I have absolutely no desire to either be completely monogamous or to adopt 2.5 children. I respect the right of other gay people to do so, but it doesn't interest me at all. I would personally feel like a quasi-hetero or something (and how many straights are really monogamous?). Many of my gay brothers disagree with me on this issue, raise their eyebrows because I'm middle-aged yet sexually active (thank goodness), but I am always responsible and safe, so it's really no business of theirs. Certainly I agree that in this day and age one must be sexually responsible, but just because I'm not monogamous doesn't mean I don't stick to safe sex; I do, as do many, many others. (And let's not forget how sexually irresponsible straights can be, not only in regard to HIV but to unwanted pregnancies.)

Lastly, I'm old enough to testify that things have improved markedly since the 70's, certainly, but we've still got a long way to go. Snide remarks, fag jokes, perpetual stereotyping (let's not throw our stereotypical members under the bus; let's just underline our diversity), the ex-gay movement (I've often wondered if all this talk about sexual fluidity only plays into their hands), 31 states where you can still get fired etc. We still have our self-hating homos, closet queens, Jim McGreevey-style married homosexuals, Larry Craig a-holes, and all the rest, too many people who just don't want to be "gay," still full of fear and shame.

Which is why we must stand together, cannot rest on our laurels, and why our "parades" must always be Marches!

[davidinalameda]

62. I thought this was going to be about Hill and Obama supporters

[insleeforprez]

64. This is a nice debate...

about conformity and how it applies to modern life.

Why does this have to be a GLBT issue? Last I heard, the thing that makes us gay is who we sleep with, not what clothes we wear.

I will fight for your right to not conform, but I think it needs to be separated from GLBT issues.

[undergroundpanther]

72. But question..

Isn't living in the closet a kind of CONFORMITY?

Say it was the 1940's and you were gay and being gay was seen as so bad and dangerous and revolting to the culture at large, being gay was such a non conformist thing it was a threat..And the truth about who you are and you you love was such a threat to your safety that you married a woman you didn't love,had kids with her, had a house and a job,all to appear straight and normal to the culture out there that hated your gay identity so much, you conformed to a lie so you wouldn't get bashed or treated to verbal abuse, or denied the right to exist,...isn't that a form of self protection, through CONFORMITY?
I disagree with you there, Issues of Identity,Non conformity VS conformity are HUGE issues for the Queer community.

[sui generis]

65. I think we're mixing idioms here

Personally I don't want to have to wait on someone to finish fucking so I can use the bathroom for what it's intended.

I don't care what they're wearing or how their genitals are arranged.

No problem with what anyone wears or how their genitals are arranged - just please keep the love juices and spooge at home or at a private establishment.

I do agree though, we are just silly prude and prissy about judging our own by some bar of acceptability, set by choices in clothing and genital arrangement. As if!

The most ludicrous thing to judge anyone by is an idea. Good grief the catholics, jews, pagans and protestants have thousands of years experience burning each other at the stake over SHIT YOU CAN'T SEE.

Add to that a couple hundred years of lynching people over the color of their skin, and now whether their petticoat is the right color, and we're all pretty fucking lame.

Rarrr. Need coffee.

[closeupready]

66. Just curious - have you seriously ever had to wait for people to finish with their intercourse befor

using a toilet stall? Probably not.

Using toilet stalls for romantic encounters is neither exclusive to GLBT people nor a unifying element to being GLBT, so please leave that kind of hyperbole out of this discussion, thanks.

[Toasterlad]

68. THANK You.

So sad how so many gays have embraced this "public sex" bullshit.

[BillSam]

69. Thirded

Here's a funny, true story.

The last time I knew two people were having sex in a bathroom, it was in a gay bar I go to regularly -- and the couple having sex in the ladies room were -- you guessed it -- STRAIGHT!

(They only got away with it because the place was so crowded the bouncer was busy at the front door.)

How did I know they were having sex? Well, let's see: Two people. One bathroom. Locked door. Stuck in there long enough for a bj or a quick hump. You do the math.

[closeupready]

71. More evidence demonstrating the wisdom of making heterosexuality illegal.

:D

[undergroundpanther]

67. BEAUTIFUL POST

You are awesome aspieGrrl!

Roawr!(paw up in the in the air,claws extended and gleaming in the light of the truth..)

[swimmernsecretsea]

73. I fuckin' love this! Thank you!

And you quoted Audre Lorde! How I wish she were here to contribute her wisdom and beautiful prose. I would have thanked you just for that, but then you went and wrapped it around a call to remind us not to abandon our LGBT community members. I just so pleased that I can't think of an articulate statement to give you, so I hope you'll forgive me for that.