I am sick to death of being told that this is partially our own fault.

[Lyric]

We didn't do enough "outreach" to religious bigots. We aren't "making our case" for marriage well enough.

Why the hell are WE--the goddamned VICTIMS--expected to wheedle and cajole bigots into respecting our Constitutional rights, and then tsk-tsk'ed at when we don't do quite ENOUGH begging?? WHY are we expected to have less pride, less dignity, less humanity than anyone else, in order to facilitate a proper amount of GROVELING to the TaliJesus nutcases and the homo-haters? Why should ANY group of people have to debase themselves on their knees, over and over, pleading for the equality that is supposed to be already Constitionally guaranteed?? Why do some people think that it's a good idea, today of ALL days, to imply that this is even the TINEST bit our own fault??

It's absurdity, and it's about as fucking heartless and tactless as it can possibly be. We had been planning to get MARRIED next summer in California--could I at least have a few days to grieve the loss of my wedding plans in peace before me and my Family are blamed, even a little, for our own agony? Jesus.

:cry:

[Merlot]

1. You were up against the mormon church and their 24 million tax free dollars

that they were able to pour into an out of state campaign.

You were outmatched is all.

Keep fighting.


ps I'm not sure what you're refering to or whose blaming you

[Nikki Stone1]

6. The Mormons and the Knights of Columbus

Neither of whom have a real foothold in California. They scared people that their children would be taught to be gay. The commercials were sick.

[Lyric]

7. Posts I've seen here at DU today.

I'd link, but I was too upset and disgusted to even bother saving them. I don't care if people "mean well" or not--nobody should be implying that GLBT people somehow didn't "do enough." Not today. It's just flat-out fucking cruel.

[bluedawg12]

13. Go ahead and link! Go ahead and ignore list.

Go ahead and attack fellow DU'ers and fellow GLBT's in this most nasty way and call a differing opinion cruel.

Do everything but explain why fighting back and making the case is wrong.

[bluedawg12]

16. Here ya' go, here's some of my links, fault me for looking for answers

why don't you?

Then, tell me to my face what's wrong with trying to find answers?

And then tell me to my face where I said I wasn't greiving, tell me where I said we shouldn't grieve?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=86448&mesg_id=86503

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=86468&mesg_id=86480

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=86524&mesg_id=86548

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=86251&mesg_id=86531

[Lyric]

18. Take your "differing opinions" and shove them.

Fighting back and making the case AREN'T wrong. Nice strawman bullshit there, trying to misrepresent what I said.

MY point remains. We are NOT even SLIGHTLY to blame for what bigots do, and the bullshit about how we didn't do enough to "make the case" to those fucking bigots is nothing more than a subtle way to partially blame the victims. That kind of rhetoric AT ALL is just offensive. That kind of rhetoric TODAY is nothing short of sadistic.

And yes--Ignore list. Yes indeed.

[bluedawg12]

22. Calm down!

Stop picking fights acorss DU because you are upset.

Straw man my ass. stop the little rhetorical evasions.

In a poltical battle, and this was political, we lost, and our message was not clear judgong by what I have heard people say when I discussed why they were for prophate8.

No, I am not to blame for the bigotry because I don't deserve to be hated, even by you, but we don't live in a perfect world and others will define our cause if we do not.

So calm down oktoberain and don't take your anger out on fellow DU'ers and GLBT's.

[TechBear_Seattle]

24. "It's just flat-out fucking cruel"

That completely describes the general attitude of a great many Democrats towards gay people, both here at DU, among the leadership, and in the party's rank-and-file.

[bluedawg12]

25. It is cruel and dehumanzing - so what do we do? n/t

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. Bow, scrape, and say "Thank you, sir. May I have another?"

After all, who else are we going to vote for?

[bluedawg12]

30. Well, they f8cked us and it's humiliating

and it hurts to hear the sh8t they say and how they talk about us.

I don't make friends with bigots, don't want them in my life.

I can't get over the Dems who voted with dogbeaterdobson.

[TechBear_Seattle]

32. And we, like battered wives and children, keep crawling back for more

Because "this time, things will be different."

[bluedawg12]

36. I feel betrayed. Plain and simple. While America cheered

last night, and saw an end to dumbya and others were feeling liberated, as the prop-hate-8 vote came in on this forum I felt oppressed and still do.

I feel it is incomprehensible that dems voted against a human rights issue.

I felt nauseated talking to a LA pro Obama voter who was "ambivalent" about changing the sanctity of marriage, and finally agreed, or so she said, to vote No.

WTF? She would have been the first one to claim her rights as a minority.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

41. I'm With You, Oktoberrain....

This is just sickening! Why the hell should we have to BEG people for a human right? Why do WE have to BEG straights for anything?! The bottom line here is that the Democrats in California screwed us over and the African-American community in particular! Why? So they could walk around and feel righteous before Jayyyysus? That might be politically incorrect to say, but it is the fucking truth!!!

This shit is why I went to Canada to get married. If you can do so, I advise going to Windsor, Ontario. My whole marriage experience was just wonderful. PM me if you are interested. I chose Canada because the chances of the fundies being allowed to pull the bullshit they are over here is much, much lower. And it was damned nice just to be able to feel that my spouse and I were being treated like human beings instead of freaks!

[AntiFascist]

44. My post was critical of the "No on 8" leadership....

they did a great job of raising funds that matched and then exceeded the amount raised by the Religious Right, but I felt that they could have utilized those funds much more effectively. Everyone who participated in the effort at the grassroots level did a great job, but the movement as a whole could have been organized and promoted much better and much earlier.

[unpossibles]

2. It's no one's fault but the bigots

I think with a little push this can be overturned by the SCOTUS. I'm sorry for you and your disrupted plans; that totally sucks, and I am sorry that some feel the need to blame the victims of hate.


:grouphug:

[margotb822]

3. I'm so sorry

I worked on Prop 8 in CA. I don't know how it passed. I just don't understand it. I was looking at the results this morning and it makes the whole election bittersweet.

I don't know if this is any consolation, but I know we will prevail. My parents are interracial and for years, their marriage was banned. America overcame that discrimination, and we will overcome this. It may not be this year or next, but I know we will. Equality is back on the march in America, and we're not giving up until it's over.

[thunder rising]

4. We got our pound of flesh and they wedged off a part ... sorry.

[Frances]

5. It is NOT the fault of gays

It is just that those of us who were against 8 need to work harder to educate other people.

I voted NO in this election, but I would not have voted NO when I was younger. It's just that I now have gay relatives and gay friends who are "out." And I have more information than I had when I was young.

Don't give up; just keep working.

[Marrah_G]

8. I'm sorry

:hug:

I hate seeing you all hurting so much.

[Maat]

9. We will fight on until we achieve equality for all!

This PFLAGer has your back! I will fight alongside you.

Only the bigots are at fault.

This will end up in the courts, and I will be donating to that legal fight!

I'm remembering the HUGE amount of youth that joined us at our No-On-8 rallies; they are all voting within the next few years. The battle is won - we won. We just have to fight on!

[Justitia]

10. Of course it's not! I know this sucks today, but progress cannot be stopped.

No one is responsible for the hate but the haters, it's their problem.

I know you are suffering for it and I'm ashamed these assholes are fellow citizens.

People DO NOT GET TO VOTE on OTHER PEOPLE'S CIVIL RIGHTS!

Progress only marches forward and she won't be stopped.

It's dark now, but the haters won't be able to hold Progress back for much longer.

:hug:

[bluedawg12]

11. I'm grieving too and I'm sorry about your plans

but I am one of those who have said here today that we haven't made our case.

And that's groveling? That's an insult?

Do we expect others to make the case for us?

We aren't VICTIMS! Victims do nothing. We are the losers of a political battle that was well funded, hateful and sneakily timed.

I never said jack sh*t about groveling on our knees, nor did I say out reach to bigoted churches. They are a lost cause.

I did say and still say, we did not get the message out to those people who could have been swayed, who are open to a well framed message.

We can sit beack and grieve, there are plenty of greiving threads, I am grieving and crying and not working -so do NOT tell me that I am not grieving or hurt or sad - but I am not going to sit on my @ss in self pity.

Who do you expect to speak out for us? Who do you expect will state how we feel and what we beleive and why, if not us?


>>WHY are we expected to have less pride, less dignity, less humanity than anyone <<

No one here, as far as I can tell.

I have pride I have dignity, I am a human being BUT I don't have my head up my @ss thinking that the rest of the world and the rest of the f*cking Dems that actually voted for propagate- hate- 8 has that understanding- I don't expect anyone to fight for me, and I don't expect to fight alone.

Yeah, today of all days we should look at this abomination and why it happened, while it is still fresh, raw and real, before we go into denial, business as usual and bury the pain.

The real threat is doing nothing, thinking nothing, feeling sad and it's not about blaming ourselves it's a fact, when a political cause is lost there is a reason, look to the reason.

If you don't feel up to looking for that reason today fine- but don't blame those of us that want to change the future, and don't call us "fucking heartless and tactless as it can possibly be..." how dare you?

You are not alone in the pain, and yet you attack those that want to do something about this injustice?

Of course we didn't get the message out. Since when is getting the message out an insult, BTW?

Since when is looking at why we lost a bad thing?

Why do we have to plead for equality? We don't. but we have to explain ourselves or we let others explain us and speak for us with their lies!

AND I AM GRIEVING TOO GOD DAMNIT!

[thrift_store_angel]

17. So if we haven't made our case

what more can be done to make our case? I am about as far away from CA as you can get, but from what I saw and what I read, they did everything they could to stop Prop 8. They certainly had more money than any other campaign to fight a ballot measure. They also had a more sympathetic audience than a lot of other groups have had to work with. We still lost.

Maybe there was more that could have been done, but I am not sure what it was...so tell me, if we need to do more then what is it that we aren't doing?

[bluedawg12]

28. What could we have done?

That's what I have been asking in my other threads.

From what I understand this all happened very quickly in terms of the GLBT community in Cali.

The Cali Court allowed for gay marriage and it became law, and then, rather quickly, a political movement well funded by the theofascists appeared with Prop-Hate-8, they spent something like 16 million dollars and even won over Dem voters.

To make it worst, other States passed similar legislation yesterday too.

Why?

Why is it that Americans don't see anything wrong with taking away human rights?

Cali is the one that really bothers me, Ark. and Fla. are bible belt, but why would Cali voters actually undo a law that gives us rights?

All I can think of is, that after arguing with people who were for Prop 8, there are those that use relgion as a hammer and close the discussion. They are goners.

There are people that don't care, "it's not my issue" the passive- apathetic shirkers.

There were dems that I spoke to that waxed poetic about the "beauty of marriage: as one man one woman, etc.etc., but were at least willing to talk and change their vote.

What dumbfounded me that many people were still throwing the old bull sh8t about being gay is a "life style" and a "choice."

I don't have answers,thrift_store_angel, I have questions too. it was never an accusation to say we didn't get the message out, it was an observation, and maybe a direction for the future. I am, as stunned, sickened and bewildered at how entrenched bigotry is. I came here for support, I am saddened, unable to work, and looking for answers.

Sorry, I have none.

I actually wonder if there is such a thing as educating people about bigotry, or if it just so ingrained that it takes generations to work out of the system. The bright note is that the younger voters were in majority against it.

[eridani]

47. There is no LGBT "lifestyle"

We have LIVES, dammit!

[bluedawg12]

49. "Gay life style" is code for: gay's chose to be gay

and in so doing could chose not to be gay.

We can't argue with these unfair positions:

My faith tells me you are immoral - the God is on my side argument.

You don't have to be gay - the there is no such thing as gay argument.

The first uses religion as a club in an unfair debate.

The second, actually denies gays exist. They deny that it is no more of a choice for us to be gay, then it is for them to be straight.

These would not be people I would waste my time with in debate. I would try reason with those who are open to fainress, to those who are open to the idea that all people have a basic right to be happy.

That's why I blew my stack and left that forum after eight years, because when the topic og gays came up, seemingly decent, moderate, self proclaimed tolerant people dropped the mask and they were uglier than sh*t.

[Tarc]

12. Not your fault that bigotry is just too ingrained in some people

Something will work out soon. Perhaps some form of an anti-DOMA law at the federal level can begin the process of overriding this writing of prejudice into state constitutions.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. chk this out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7785900&mesg_id=7789440

[Lyric]

15. Oh yeah. I already had words with that one earlier.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7785900&mesg_id=7788311

[LostinVA]

20. PM me who -- they're on Ignore

[bluedawg12]

21. Well, oktoberain, it looks like you were framing a message

maybe a little more polish, but, it could work! :)

Hey, lighten up, I am on your/my side.

Of course this shit they throw at GLBT issues from the right is ugly, unfair, and dehumanizing and hurtful.

But the reason I can't wait to stop greiving before I fight, is because I will NOT STOP GRIEVING for a long, long, long f*cking time. And I will not forget people calling me immoral, a danger to America, somehow my 22 year goddman stable relationship a farce by trash spweing @ss holes. That's why oktoberain, because I can see by the betrayal in the privacy of their f*cking voting booths that Dems voted to dehumanize me and my entire life and then walked away and smirked as if it were all A-OK to vote on the side of Fuk-us -on- the family!!!!!!!

That's why I want to fight this,.

That's why I want to fight and I want to win this.

[jonnyblitz]

31. pffft. why am i not surprised it was that person.

there are a few that seem to seek out GBLT related topics just to be nasty/contrarian.

[bluedawg12]

37. Helloo, oktoberain -take me off ignore

I just went back to that thread and read some of the replies.

I can see why you are so angry, that is just the kind of sh*t that I was fighting with last night on another forum and finally blew my stack and left people I have known and thought of as friends for 8 years.

Some of the replies are amazing, still with the homosexuality is a sin.

I came for support and to be supportive, not to fight.

I still feel like crying and can't work, it's been like this since I woke up.

[Chovexani]

19. It's always our fault isn't it?

I'm sick and fucking tired of it too. And I'm so sorry about your plans--my ex-girlfriend back in AZ was planning a Cali wedding with her partner. They even bought rings. :cry:

[bluedawg12]

23. Then let me ask this question- there is no point in

fighting back?

Nothing we can say that will open people's minds?

[Duncan Grant]

27. I don't care about opening their minds. It's time for scorched earth.

Principle #1: You fuck with us. We fuck with you.

No justice? NO PEACE.

[bluedawg12]

29. fine. what does that mean though? n/t

[Duncan Grant]

33. I don't know yet but chances are it won't be the "kumbyah" philosophy that has repeatedly failed us.

It's time to dust off our ACT-UP handbooks and make the comfortable and equivocating leadership distinctly uncomfortable.

[bluedawg12]

34. There is no kumbyah here- there is just plain old ugly bigotry

against gays, the same sh8t I've have heard from het's for decades.

Reversing a fairness law was the last straw, the next to the last straw was Dems voting for it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

35. It's not your fault that all of us took it for granted.

My heart is breaking for what should be a non issue for you. You should be planning your wedding and I am so sorry.

[The Traveler]

38. We shall not abandon our gay friends

nor leave them without knowing that there are a lot of straight people out there like many at DU who back their cause. We can't just say "Oh, well." Not when we just proved we are up to winning long struggles.

[KitSileya]

39. Wha?? You're being told that?

What maggots they are! This has nothing to do with what you have done or not done, this has to do with a large segment of the American population being a-holes who like nothing better than take your rights away from you. And considering the company many of these 'Christians' have in their bigotry, it is nothing short of hypocritical. So, polygamy with underage girls is supposed to be ok, but marriage between consenting adults of the same gender threatens marriage as God ordained it. Give me a break!

I am truly sorry about your wedding plans. You take as many days as you need to mourn the loss, and then come back stronger and more determined to restore equal rights, to restore civil rights in the US.

[Jamastiene]

40. It just follows the same "she was asking for it" type of bigoted mentality.

They might as well come on out and say they think we "asked for it" in some way. It's insult after injury.

[Zhade]

42. Hear fucking HEAR

NT!

[Ms. Toad]

43. Victoria, British Columbia

Nice little bed and breakfast - very helpful in arranging our last minute elopement (to beat the effective date of the Ohio marriage discrimination date 3+ years ago). Not too far from California. Let me know if you want details.

[The Brethren]

45. I would be happy to make my case to all bigots and

hypocritical people. I owe nothing to anyone as far as educating them on why they shouldn't be bigots. The only thing I feel I owe them is a reminder to stay the hell out of our lives!!!!! If they want to dictate how someone should live their life and what they feel should be done to match their views on religion and so forth....apply it themselves and stay the hell away from gay people.

Victim blaming looks like it's back just in time for the elections. Maybe I'm very cynical tonight, but if you really want to educate people about discrimination, ask them how they would feel if a group of people passed laws that outlaw their right to marry. And perhaps including their current marriages. That might get the point across.

I'm sorry you were not allowed to get married this summer! Let's hope things change!!

[Behind the Aegis]

46. Get used to it.

Hate to break it to you, this is the same shit from the last election (except WE were the ones that cost Kerry the election, not the purist assholes, 3rd party supporters, and "oh, it doesn't make a difference, stay at home and don't vote assholes...no, it was the fags and dykes (bi-folk pick a slur)). Friend, welcome to the hate of the left. Too many try and pretend that the left (or democrats) are immune to bigotry, but this is simply not true. The "left" just disguise it differently.

I know it is trite, but have faith. We all witnessed a black man being elected to the head of this nation's leadership, when just 50 years ago blacks couldn't even drink from the same water fountain as whites! We, too, shall overcome!

That which does not kill us, only serves to make us stronger. And, we are STRONG! And, we have ALLIES! We mourn today because of the fact that homophobia is still a binding tie for so many, but we should rejoice because we are STRONG!

WE ARE HERE! WE ARE QUEER! AND FUCK ANYONE THINKING WE ARE GOING BACK INTO THE CLOSET!!!!

[bluedawg12]

48. No apologies for being gay. No gay vicitms.

Gay pride.

Gay activism.

Gay civil rights.

The future IS progressive.

[MountainLaurel]

50. I agree completely

:hug: